On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:16:53 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> I can't afford to pay top rate tips on top of an over priced meal so I
> shouldn't go out for dinner???? Screw that.

Or you could make better choices about where to eat.

> If they can't make a living
> on their menial labour position maybe they need to look for a better
> job.

I hope you reread what you just said and realize how ridiculous it
sounds.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:54:18 -0600, John Kuthe >
wrote:

>On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>
>>Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>>
>>Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>>not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>...
>
>I think not too.

Then you are an illiterate... folks who don't want to pay a set
gratuity could read about it on the menu before they order and it's
typically posted in several places like right as you enter where yoose
cheap *******s can't miss it... dine at the Clown, Bozo!

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:18:15 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 02/02/2013 11:48 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> >
> > If the waitress waited on 10 tables of 2 people in the same amount of
> > time, she would realize a nice amount of tip. Because she is tied up
> > with 20 people at one table (takes a lot more time than one table) she
> > is vulnerable to getting stiffed for her work.
> > Janet US
> >
>
>
> BUT.... if service was included in the price on the menu the servers
> would not have to rely on the generosity of the customers.

Yet we have people in this very thread vociferously who don't like a
gratuity included on the bill. There you go.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 02/02/2013 2:22 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

>> Sorry, but I don't buy into the argument that if you can afford to eat
>> out you can afford to pay a larger tip. I am not into playing Mr.
>> Bigshot and expecting wait staff to jump when I snap my fingers. They
>> aren't trained dogs. The taking of orders and delivery of food is part
>> of the service that you get when you eat in a restaurant. If I have to
>> pay extra to get a smile and the patronizing tip soliciting behaviour I
>> will take the food without the smile and save the money.
>
> You obviously don't eat out often or if you do you think national
> chain restos is fine dining.


You don't know me very well if you think you are going to see me in a
chain restaurant. Besides, we are not talking about fine dining. It is
about all food service.



> Tipping has nothing to do with servers
> hopping about like trained seals... it's what the servers do behind
> the scenes that can't be seen is why I tip well, they make sure to
> tell the kitchen that I'm a regular, makes all the difference in the
> world to the quality of my meal. If you tip minimally (15% is
> minimally) there is no way you can convince me that you get a quality
> meal on your return visit, no way whatsoever..


That's pretty short sighted. Restaurants don't make it on people paying
an extra 2-5% to their waiters. They make it on return business. Treat
me like crap and they won't see me there again.

Dave Smith wrote:
> On 02/02/2013 11:43 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>>
>>> I am supposed to pay 15% on top of that for a service...... $12 to pour
>>> the wine into a glass and walk 20 feet to the table?? Hold it.... no,
>>> that is not enough..... it is an expensive restaurant, and if I can
>>> afford to pay their high prices I should be able to afford 20%.. Not
>>> when I am already being gouged. Sorry, but that is a racket.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> So you're going to retaliate against the lowest, most helpless figure
>> on the totem pole? You can argue your indignation against a system
>> you don't like but you don't affect the restaurant owner one iota
>> unless you stay home and don't eat out. When you eat out and pay your
>> bill, the restaurant still gets all their profit, doesn't make any
>> difference to their bottom line whether you tip or not.
>> Janet US
>
> That's the problem there. I don't generally go to places like that. That
> $14 glass of wine was way overpriced. It was a mediocre wine. Their
> entire limited wine list was mediocre wines, wines that sell for $12-15
> per bottle and that is what they were charging for each glass.
> The food was also overpriced. It was tasty enough but very small
> portions. My sea bass was eaten in four bites. We had their three
> course menu and I could have eaten a second complete meal.
>
> My son had made the reservations thinking that it sounded like an
> interesting place and that my wife would like to go there for her
> birthday. I won't be back. I know lots of places where I can get good
> just as good or better and for a lot less money.
>
> There is a local winery restaurant on my list of not to go to places.
> Their wine selection is all their own products, and only the more
> expensive wines they make. They are all marked way up. It's not like
> they have a 5 star type wine cellar with thousands of bottles of vintage
> wines that have been aging in their climate controlled cellar. The last
> time were there was close to 10 years ago and the soup was $14.95 for
> vegetable soup. What the hell can you put in vegetable soup that makes
> it worth $14.95? It is not located in high rent downtown commercial
> property. It is on their vineyard in the country.
>
>
>
> But..... this tipping thing..... I am expected to pay a percentage of
> everything, even when they have already jacked the prices way up??? That
> doesn't work for me. I don't figure that I have paid for a big
> expensive meal so the waiter has to be overcompensated. I do not pay tip
> on the sales taxes that have been tacked on.
>
> I can't afford to pay top rate tips on top of an over priced meal so I
> shouldn't go out for dinner???? Screw that. If they can't make a living
> on their menial labour position maybe they need to look for a better
> job. FWIW... I have a nephew with a degree in hotel management who
> opted to return to waiting tables because he makes more money at it than
> he did in management.
>
>

So tip a fixed $5 or $10.

Bob

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:29:28 -0500, Brooklyn1
> wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:54:18 -0600, John Kuthe >
>wrote:
>
>>On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>
>>>Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>>>
>>>Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>>>not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>>...
>>
>>I think not too.
>
>Then you are an illiterate... folks who don't want to pay a set
>gratuity could read about it on the menu before they order and it's
>typically posted in several places like right as you enter where yoose
>cheap *******s can't miss it... dine at the Clown, Bozo!

Me? Illiterate? No, I read it on the menu if it's there, and like I
said they are shooting themselves in the foot because I normally tip
at least that much for average service to much more than 18% for
excellent service (or cute girls!)

John Kuthe...

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:26:44 -0400, wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:09:16 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:01:10 -0400, wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:51:11 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 17:08:58 -0000, "Ophelia"
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Good grief!!! If a someone did that to me I would walk out!!
> >> >>
> >> >Honestly, when does that ever happen? If it did, wouldn't you have a
> >> >"word" with the manager before you left?
> >>
> >>
> >> Not necessarily. The job is not well paid, the person has maybe taken
> >> flack that day, all sorts of possible reasons. I am not going to have
> >> a word with the manager, how spiteful is that when I do not know all
> >> the facts ?
> >
> >So, you'd just walk out without paying? That's so grown up.
>
>
> Huh ? Where did you get the not paying idea ? Save your inventions
> for elsewhere.

Quoted above "If a someone did that to me I would walk out!!" with no
mention of eating the meal and paying for it first.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 09:48:10 -0700, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:54:18 -0600, John Kuthe >
>wrote:
>
>>On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>
>>>Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>>>
>>>Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>>>not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>>...
>>
>>I think not too. If any restaurant I ever went charged an automatic
>>"tip" then not only would that be ALL they got as a tip (I typically
>>tip very well too, more than 20%) it would also be ther last time I
>>ever patronized them!
>>
>>John Kuthe...
>
>If the waitress waited on 10 tables of 2 people in the same amount of
>time, she would realize a nice amount of tip. Because she is tied up
>with 20 people at one table (takes a lot more time than one table) she
>is vulnerable to getting stiffed for her work.
>Janet US

I understand Janet. But I am NOT one of those who tried to stiff the
waitstaff for large groups. In fact I understand the workload
distribution so well that for a large group I'd tip near 30%, maybe
more!

I am NOT part of the problem, I am part of the solution!

John Kuthe...

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:16:53 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 02/02/2013 11:43 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>>
>>> I am supposed to pay 15% on top of that for a service...... $12 to pour
>>> the wine into a glass and walk 20 feet to the table?? Hold it.... no,
>>> that is not enough..... it is an expensive restaurant, and if I can
>>> afford to pay their high prices I should be able to afford 20%.. Not
>>> when I am already being gouged. Sorry, but that is a racket.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> So you're going to retaliate against the lowest, most helpless figure
>> on the totem pole? You can argue your indignation against a system
>> you don't like but you don't affect the restaurant owner one iota
>> unless you stay home and don't eat out. When you eat out and pay your
>> bill, the restaurant still gets all their profit, doesn't make any
>> difference to their bottom line whether you tip or not.
>> Janet US
>
>That's the problem there. I don't generally go to places like that. That
>$14 glass of wine was way overpriced. It was a mediocre wine. Their
>entire limited wine list was mediocre wines, wines that sell for $12-15
>per bottle and that is what they were charging for each glass.
>The food was also overpriced. It was tasty enough but very small
>portions. My sea bass was eaten in four bites. We had their three
>course menu and I could have eaten a second complete meal.
>
>My son had made the reservations thinking that it sounded like an
>interesting place and that my wife would like to go there for her
>birthday. I won't be back. I know lots of places where I can get good
>just as good or better and for a lot less money.
>
>There is a local winery restaurant on my list of not to go to places.
>Their wine selection is all their own products, and only the more
>expensive wines they make. They are all marked way up. It's not like
>they have a 5 star type wine cellar with thousands of bottles of vintage
>wines that have been aging in their climate controlled cellar. The last
>time were there was close to 10 years ago and the soup was $14.95 for
>vegetable soup. What the hell can you put in vegetable soup that makes
>it worth $14.95? It is not located in high rent downtown commercial
>property. It is on their vineyard in the country.
>
>
>
> But..... this tipping thing..... I am expected to pay a percentage of
>everything, even when they have already jacked the prices way up??? That
>doesn't work for me. I don't figure that I have paid for a big
>expensive meal so the waiter has to be overcompensated. I do not pay tip
>on the sales taxes that have been tacked on.
>
>I can't afford to pay top rate tips on top of an over priced meal so I
>shouldn't go out for dinner???? Screw that. If they can't make a living
>on their menial labour position maybe they need to look for a better
>job. FWIW... I have a nephew with a degree in hotel management who
>opted to return to waiting tables because he makes more money at it than
>he did in management.
>
So really you were ****ed about the prices and didn't want to spend
anymore money, even if it was a tip for service.
Check out the restaurant menu prices online before you go so that you
know if you can afford the place and don't stiff the server.
I'm not surprised your wife doesn't want to go back, I can tell that
you bitched through the entire meal. I suggest she go out with a
friend in the future.
Janet US

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:29:28 -0500, Brooklyn1
> wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:54:18 -0600, John Kuthe >
>wrote:
>
>>On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>
>>>Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>>>
>>>Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>>>not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>>...
>>
>>I think not too.
>
>Then you are an illiterate... folks who don't want to pay a set
>gratuity could read about it on the menu before they order and it's
>typically posted in several places like right as you enter where yoose
>cheap *******s can't miss it... dine at the Clown, Bozo!

I agree, it's posted and printed, discreetly, but it is there. The
restaurant isn't interested in making enemies with surprise charges.
Janet US

On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 11:22:58 -0800 (PST), Kalmia
> wrote:

>Read the article again. They insisted on separate checks, so the 34 bucks was prob. for 2-3 people.
>
>I understand mandatory gratuity - it's to counteract the big cheapskate groups which are wont to haunt restos. I've been in those groups- some straggle in latee so they miss the appetizer part, some toss a 20 on the table and duck out early, The last guys left are the ones who get stuck making up the difference. Some shitheads don't even cover their FOOD, let alone throw in something toward a tip.
>
>This is why, if I go out with a group, I go armed with plenty of fives and ones so I can cover my portion and not get stuck, even if it means a special trip to the bank to get those small bills. Beats getting stuck and stewin about it for years, and having to smile and act like nothing happened, next time you bump into these tightwads. It's usually a couple who you thought were in the bucks - ha. Burns my rear.

Yes, I carry ones and fives with me so that no one can say that they
don't have proper change to leave a tip. I'll make change gladly so
that the server get paid that day.
Janet US

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:36:29 -0400, wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 12:25:49 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:26:44 -0400, wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:09:16 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:01:10 -0400, wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:51:11 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 17:08:58 -0000, "Ophelia"
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Good grief!!! If a someone did that to me I would walk out!!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >Honestly, when does that ever happen? If it did, wouldn't you have a
> >> >> >"word" with the manager before you left?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Not necessarily. The job is not well paid, the person has maybe taken
> >> >> flack that day, all sorts of possible reasons. I am not going to have
> >> >> a word with the manager, how spiteful is that when I do not know all
> >> >> the facts ?
> >> >
> >> >So, you'd just walk out without paying? That's so grown up.
> >>
> >>
> >> Huh ? Where did you get the not paying idea ? Save your inventions
> >> for elsewhere.
> >
> >Quoted above "If a someone did that to me I would walk out!!" with no
> >mention of eating the meal and paying for it first.
>
>
> You need to straighten up - I said
>
> ">> > wrote in message
> >> >
> >> > It has zilch to do with being cheap and more to do with not liking my
> >> > plate slammed down in front of me, or a "Whadda ya want?" attitude.
> >> > Why on earth reward bad service, that would seen highly unfair to the
> >> > mostly likeable servers.
> >>
> >> Good grief!!! If a someone did that to me I would walk out!!
> >>
> >Honestly, when does that ever happen? If it did, wouldn't you have a
> >"word" with the manager before you left?
>
>
> Not necessarily. The job is not well paid, the person has maybe taken
> flack that day, all sorts of possible reasons. I am not going to have
> a word with the manager, how spiteful is that when I do not know all
> the facts ?
>
>
> From that you deduce that I skip out without paying !

Are you that incapable of reading the reply after yours?

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>
>Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>
>I think not. I once ran across this at a Chevy's. Surcharge for
>parties over six ppl. For what? Why? How is serving 6 ppl at one
>table more work than serving 3 ppl at two tables? And 18%! That's
>almost one fifth of the total added on. It's not only unfair, it's a
>rip-off, pure and simple. If it's such a chore to serve 6 ppl at one
>table, perhaps the proprietor should find another line of work or have
>smaller tables with a big sign out front.
>
>BTW, how in God's name (it was church folk) did 20 ppl manage to run
>up a bill of only $34 at an Applebees? Did they all order jes one
>Coke? If I'd been the mgr, Ida told the entire lot to "fly away"
>....NOW!

Hmm, tipping. Makes more sense in the USA, where wages can be almost
nothing. Still, I'm not keen on the idea of a tip being expected and
it certainly should not be an automatic surcharge... at the very
least, that surcharge should be made quite clear before you make a
booking.

Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
employment?

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:10:42 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 02/02/2013 10:47 AM, Gary wrote:
>
>> For example... say for a party of 2-3 people and the bill comes to $100.
>> Rather than pay $118, I will pay $125-130. We are talking a small
>> difference of 7-12 dollars extra here for a tip to help out a good waitress
>> who probably makes about $3 per hour plus tips.
>>
>> Your bill would be at least $118 (with an 18% tip). Will it kill you to add
>> a few more dollars and make someones day?
>
>Okay... turn it around..... if it is a small difference it shouldn't
>affect the server if you don't leave it.
>
>
>> IMO, people that are tight with tipping should stay home and cook.
>
>
>I don't have a problem with the amount so much as I do with the
>institution of tipping, the idea that some people should be so poorly
>paid that they have to depend on the generosity of their customers to
>make a decent living. I am all in favour of a system like they have in
>places like the Netherlands, Germany and (most of) France where tax and
>service are included in the menu price, so what you see is what you pay.
>If you order 6 items ate 5 Euros, your bill is 30 Euros.... no extras
>for tax, no calculating what is appropriate for a tip.
>
>
>Bear mind that a tip, or gratuity, by definition, is voluntary. Some
>people in the business have come to expect it, a sort of entitlement.
>Not only that, the expect to be tipped a percentage on the entire bill,
>including the tax. Worse yet, they argue that because of inflation the
>percentage should be higher, suggesting a minimum of 20%.
>
>Then we hear the argument that if you can afford to go out for dinner
>you can afford to leave a big tip. Screw that. If they want to jack up
>their prices with outrageous markups I am already paying a lot for the
>luxury of going out to eat. For instance, we went to a place last
>summer where they charge $14 for glass of wine, about the same price as
>a whole bottle of that particular wine. That means a 500-600% markup on
>the wine.
>
>
>I am supposed to pay 15% on top of that for a service...... $12 to pour
>the wine into a glass and walk 20 feet to the table?? Hold it.... no,
>that is not enough..... it is an expensive restaurant, and if I can
>afford to pay their high prices I should be able to afford 20%.. Not
>when I am already being gouged. Sorry, but that is a racket.

Good post.

On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 09:02:02 +1100, Jeßus > wrote:

>
> Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
> doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
> their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
> privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
> employment?

Here, unless a higher wage is mandated by the locality, servers are
often paid considerably less than minimum wage.
http://www.kutv.com/news/features/ge...s/vid_71.shtml
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1515916.html
<http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/19/1064413/-Restaurant-industry-screws-women-while-2-13-tipped-worker-minimum-wage-makes-it-worse>
http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm


--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

"Pete C." wrote:
>
>An auto tip is a bad idea generally. When they do it's usually 15-18%
>and I normally do 20% so they loose there.

The posted gratuity is minimum, nothing prevents you from tipping
more, except that you obviously have "Short Arm Disease"... your arms
are too short to dig deeper into your pocket...

On 02/02/2013 2:27 PM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:16:53 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> I can't afford to pay top rate tips on top of an over priced meal so I
>> shouldn't go out for dinner???? Screw that.
>
> Or you could make better choices about where to eat.
>
>> If they can't make a living
>> on their menial labour position maybe they need to look for a better
>> job.
>
> I hope you reread what you just said and realize how ridiculous it
> sounds.
>


Isn't that the same argument that a lot of people use for other things,
like unions. Rather than going out on strike for more money they should
find a better job. Waiting tables is, by definition, menial labour.


FWIW, the general minimum wage here is now $10.25 per hour, and for
people who serve liquor it is $8.90. There are lots of people we deal
with every day who are making minimum wage, like store clerks. We don't
tip them. Most retail workers are not well paid, but we don't tip them.
There was a time when people waited tables for tips, with no wages at
all. Most civilized countries now have labour laws to set decent
conditions for workers and minimum wages. For some reason, we cling to
the idea that there are some workers who we don't expect to pay well and
we tip them to get better service.

On 02/02/2013 3:34 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
n't afford to pay top rate tips on top of an over priced meal so I
>> shouldn't go out for dinner???? Screw that. If they can't make a living
>> on their menial labour position maybe they need to look for a better
>> job. FWIW... I have a nephew with a degree in hotel management who
>> opted to return to waiting tables because he makes more money at it than
>> he did in management.
>>
> So really you were ****ed about the prices and didn't want to spend
> anymore money, even if it was a tip for service.
> Check out the restaurant menu prices online before you go so that you
> know if you can afford the place and don't stiff the server.
> I'm not surprised your wife doesn't want to go back, I can tell that
> you bitched through the entire meal. I suggest she go out with a
>

Don't worry. I am not poverty stricken. Nor am I gullible enough to get
gouged. I resent being expected to pay a 500-600% markup on mediocre
wine and then people expected to pay a minimum 15% tip on that
hyperinflated price. As I said, they were all mediocre wines.

notbob wrote:
>
>Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.

All this tipping topic ever does is 'outta' the royal cheapo *******s.

On 02/02/2013 5:13 PM, Susan wrote:

>> Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
>> doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
>> their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
>> privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
>> employment?
>
> Servers here are paid way below the standard prevailing minimum wage.
> There's no analogy here.
>


Yes. That is my problem. Tipping is an anachronism in this day and age.
The servers should get a decent wage for their work ad should not have
to count on the generosity of their customers. It seems to give some
people a cheap sort of thrill to be able to flaunt their relative wealth
or generosity by dangling tips in front of servers as some sort of
incentive.
I have eaten in countries where waiters are paid a decent wage and tips
are not expected. The service is still good. They know that if they do
not treat customers well they will be out of a job.

gtr wrote:
>notbob said:
>
>> Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>>
>> Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>> not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>>
>> I think not.
>
>I think they should--OR--employee's should be paid a decent wage by
>their employees. That's really the either/or here.

You'd be the first to bitch when the menu prices are 25% higher and
portions are 25% smaller. Tipping ensures that those servers who work
the hardest earn the most pay. By eliminating tipping and paying all
servers the same none will make a living wage, the good workers
efforts will be nullified by the poor workers. Many years ago there
was a waiter's union in some US cities, for high end hotel dining and
other high end eateries, that's what you want to bring back...
overpaid surly servers, and high prices. Removing tipping removes
incentive.... just like at Euro eateries I've experienced.

And comparing skilled trades unions to a table server union is apples
and oranges... no formal training, testing, and licencing is necessary
to wait table... in fact even general cooking is not a skilled trade,
that's why general cooks haven't unionized, unlike confectionary
workers and bakers, those are skilled trades.

I've experienced some bad servers... eliminating tipping and paying
them all the same will bring all servers down to the lowest common
denominator... I would never again patronize a restaurant.

And yoose all forgot the most important aspect of tipping... all else
equal I tip extra for the best tits. LOL

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:30:01 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 02/02/2013 2:22 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>>> Sorry, but I don't buy into the argument that if you can afford to eat
>>> out you can afford to pay a larger tip. I am not into playing Mr.
>>> Bigshot and expecting wait staff to jump when I snap my fingers. They
>>> aren't trained dogs. The taking of orders and delivery of food is part
>>> of the service that you get when you eat in a restaurant. If I have to
>>> pay extra to get a smile and the patronizing tip soliciting behaviour I
>>> will take the food without the smile and save the money.
>>
>> You obviously don't eat out often or if you do you think national
>> chain restos is fine dining.
>
>
>You don't know me very well if you think you are going to see me in a
>chain restaurant. Besides, we are not talking about fine dining. It is
>about all food service.
>
>
>
>> Tipping has nothing to do with servers
>> hopping about like trained seals... it's what the servers do behind
>> the scenes that can't be seen is why I tip well, they make sure to
>> tell the kitchen that I'm a regular, makes all the difference in the
>> world to the quality of my meal. If you tip minimally (15% is
>> minimally) there is no way you can convince me that you get a quality
>> meal on your return visit, no way whatsoever..
>
>
>That's pretty short sighted. Restaurants don't make it on people paying
>an extra 2-5% to their waiters. They make it on return business. Treat
>me like crap and they won't see me there again.

Leave a lousy tip and they will make sure you never return... they
don't want your kind of return business.

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:24:59 -0600, John Kuthe >
wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:29:28 -0500, Brooklyn1
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:54:18 -0600, John Kuthe >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>>>>
>>>>Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>>>>not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>>>...
>>>
>>>I think not too.
>>
>>Then you are an illiterate... folks who don't want to pay a set
>>gratuity could read about it on the menu before they order and it's
>>typically posted in several places like right as you enter where yoose
>>cheap *******s can't miss it... dine at the Clown, Bozo!
>
>Me? Illiterate? No, I read it on the menu if it's there, and like I
>said they are shooting themselves in the foot because I normally tip
>at least that much for average service to much more than 18% for
>excellent service (or cute boys!)
>
>John Kuthe...

Nothing prevents you from tipping more than the *minimum* gratuity
posted

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:39:19 -0700, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:29:28 -0500, Brooklyn1
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:54:18 -0600, John Kuthe >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>>>>
>>>>Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>>>>not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>>>...
>>>
>>>I think not too.
>>
>>Then you are an illiterate... folks who don't want to pay a set
>>gratuity could read about it on the menu before they order and it's
>>typically posted in several places like right as you enter where yoose
>>cheap *******s can't miss it... dine at the Clown, Bozo!
>
>I agree, it's posted and printed, discreetly, but it is there. The
>restaurant isn't interested in making enemies with surprise charges.
>Janet US

Minimum gratuities are always displayed, and in several places,
typically at the entrance and on the menu, and most high end
resturants display their menu in their front window so the cheapskates
can decide not to enter. And anyway most classy restos require making
reservations, especially for a large party (even Chuck E Cheese
requires reservations for a party), they will *always* tell you right
up front about their minimum gratuity... if you just show up wanting a
table for eight you'll either have a very long wait or be turned away.
There is no way anyone can claim that they didn't know about the
minimum gratuity in advance. Most restos (unless they specialize in
catering to groups, with separate dining areas) prefer not to serve
large groups, they make twice the revenue serving groups of two and
four, and larger groups annoy other diners.

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 19:01:44 -0400, wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:57:39 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:36:29 -0400, wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 12:25:49 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:26:44 -0400, wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:09:16 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:01:10 -0400, wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:51:11 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 17:08:58 -0000, "Ophelia"
> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Good grief!!! If a someone did that to me I would walk out!!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >Honestly, when does that ever happen? If it did, wouldn't you have a
> >> >> >> >"word" with the manager before you left?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Not necessarily. The job is not well paid, the person has maybe taken
> >> >> >> flack that day, all sorts of possible reasons. I am not going to have
> >> >> >> a word with the manager, how spiteful is that when I do not know all
> >> >> >> the facts ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So, you'd just walk out without paying? That's so grown up.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Huh ? Where did you get the not paying idea ? Save your inventions
> >> >> for elsewhere.
> >> >
> >> >Quoted above "If a someone did that to me I would walk out!!" with no
> >> >mention of eating the meal and paying for it first.
> >>
> >>
> >> You need to straighten up - I said
> >>
> >> ">> > wrote in message
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It has zilch to do with being cheap and more to do with not liking my
> >> >> > plate slammed down in front of me, or a "Whadda ya want?" attitude.
> >> >> > Why on earth reward bad service, that would seen highly unfair to the
> >> >> > mostly likeable servers.
> >> >>
> >> >> Good grief!!! If a someone did that to me I would walk out!!
> >> >>
> >> >Honestly, when does that ever happen? If it did, wouldn't you have a
> >> >"word" with the manager before you left?
> >>
> >>
> >> Not necessarily. The job is not well paid, the person has maybe taken
> >> flack that day, all sorts of possible reasons. I am not going to have
> >> a word with the manager, how spiteful is that when I do not know all
> >> the facts ?
> >>
> >>
> >> From that you deduce that I skip out without paying !
> >
> >Are you that incapable of reading the reply after yours?
>
> Yes I am, and answered it - however you answered my post, not hers.

I see what happened. I didn't copy her header and you didn't remember
what you wrote.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:47:29 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> I resent being expected to pay a 500-600% markup on mediocre
> wine and then people expected to pay a minimum 15% tip on that
> hyperinflated price. As I said, they were all mediocre wines.

Oh, come on. Don't blame inflated liquor prices on the serving staff.
Most people tip based on the price of the food and maybe add a bit
more for the liquor if the staff came around and actually poured
"seconds" from the bottle.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:51:58 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 02/02/2013 5:13 PM, Susan wrote:
>
> >> Minimum wage in Australia is almost $16 for an adult, so to me it
> >> doesn't make much sense here to generally tip in a restaurant. Given
> >> their reasonable minimum wage, why should they have some special
> >> privilege over other minimum wage workers in other lines of
> >> employment?
> >
> > Servers here are paid way below the standard prevailing minimum wage.
> > There's no analogy here.
> >
>
>
> Yes. That is my problem. Tipping is an anachronism in this day and age.
> The servers should get a decent wage for their work ad should not have
> to count on the generosity of their customers. It seems to give some
> people a cheap sort of thrill to be able to flaunt their relative wealth
> or generosity by dangling tips in front of servers as some sort of
> incentive.
> I have eaten in countries where waiters are paid a decent wage and tips
> are not expected. The service is still good. They know that if they do
> not treat customers well they will be out of a job.

Those countries are not the USA and I have breaking news for you about
other countries: When they figure out the customer is an American,
they bust their butts for a tip over and above what's tacked on to the
bill. Germans don't tip, so they just get basic service.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 09:23:40 +1000, atec77 <"atec77 >
wrote:
snip
>I wonder about the whole tipping thing , in this part of the world the
>waiters are better paid and need not beg for a tip , seems a basic human
>right to be paid fairly although it does mean the owners have to face
>the reality that staff deserve a decent wage and prices remain the
>affordable.

Waiters don't beg for a tip. Diners leave a tip behind with their
bill payment after their meal and that is that.
Janet US

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:51:58 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:
snip

It seems to give some
>people a cheap sort of thrill to be able to flaunt their relative wealth
>or generosity by dangling tips in front of servers as some sort of
>incentive.
snip
It's beginning to sound as though you were involved in some sort of
testosterone driven ****ing contest with a male dining companion about
who was going to leave the larger tip with wealth tipping the balance?
Janet US

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 18:00:49 -0500, Susan > wrote:

> I think the point is to just accept cultural differences and not bitch
> about them.

Like that's gonna happen.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

Janet wrote to Dave Smith:

> It's beginning to sound as though you were involved in some sort of
> testosterone driven ****ing contest with a male dining companion about who
> was going to leave the larger tip with wealth tipping the balance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ZZWhSvOMI

Bob

On Saturday, February 2, 2013 8:54:18 AM UTC-5, John Kuthe wrote:
> On 2 Feb 2013 13:00:23 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>
>
>
> >Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>
> >
>
> >Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>
> >not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>
> ...
>
>
>
> I think not too. If any restaurant I ever went charged an automatic
>
> "tip" then not only would that be ALL they got as a tip (I typically
>
> tip very well too, more than 20%) it would also be ther last time I
>
> ever patronized them!
>
>
>
> John Kuthe...

Johny, you don't need to worry. It's for parties of six or more, usually, not parties of one. I know, I know! Sometimes mommy joins her little faggy bear for lunch, but other than that...How are you liking changing adult diapers? Those three degrees really worked out well, huh? You make fun of Bryan because he doesn't want to be your friend. He has more pride and self respect than you'll ever have. He has a family he didn't **** away. He has a job he performs with dignity. You just boast about being able to buy chocolate! By any measure, you're a loser, and you know it. Nobody washes out of three careers unless there's something really wrong with them. I've seen you and heard you. You creep people out.

On 2013-02-02 23:25:34 +0000, Brooklyn1 said:

> gtr wrote:
>> notbob said:
>>
>>> Boy, this outta be good for a battle royal.
>>>
>>> Should restaurant patrons be subject to an automatic surcharge (it's
>>> not a tip!) for groups over a certain number?
>>>
>>> I think not.
>>
>>
>> I think they should--OR--employee's should be paid a decent wage by
>> their employees. That's really the either/or here.
>
> You'd be the first to bitch when the menu prices are 25% higher and
> portions are 25% smaller.

Your math is as pathetic as your logical thinking and your projections
of other people's reactions.

On Sat, 2 Feb 2013 16:50:07 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

>Janet wrote to Dave Smith:
>
>> It's beginning to sound as though you were involved in some sort of
>> testosterone driven ****ing contest with a male dining companion about who
>> was going to leave the larger tip with wealth tipping the balance?
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ZZWhSvOMI
>
>Bob

Yup! I think that is what is going on.
Janet US

On 2/2/2013 2:33 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
> It's beginning to sound as though you were involved in some sort of
> testosterone driven ****ing contest with a male dining companion about
> who was going to leave the larger tip with wealth tipping the balance?
> Janet US
>

Female like to get into ****ing contests too. Sometimes they have a
proxy sub for them. The last time I ate with my sister-in-law, my wife
suggested that I pay for the meal. By "suggested" it meant that I had
better pay for it "or else." We both got our paws on the check at the
same time but my fingers were still a little slippery from the greasy
pork sandwich that I was working on so that sucker slipped out of my
grasp. Maybe I should have gotten the salad.

Fortunately for me, the restaurant wouldn't take her card because she
didn't have the required ID so I got to pay for it! Looks like I win
again - sucker!

On Saturday, February 2, 2013 8:55:02 PM UTC-5, dsi1 wrote:
> On 2/2/2013 2:33 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> > It's beginning to sound as though you were involved in some sort of
>
> > testosterone driven ****ing contest with a male dining companion about
>
> > who was going to leave the larger tip with wealth tipping the balance?
>
> > Janet US
>
> >
>
>
>
> Female like to get into ****ing contests too. Sometimes they have a
>
> proxy sub for them. The last time I ate with my sister-in-law, my wife
>
> suggested that I pay for the meal. By "suggested" it meant that I had
>
> better pay for it "or else." We both got our paws on the check at the
>
> same time but my fingers were still a little slippery from the greasy
>
> pork sandwich that I was working on so that sucker slipped out of my
>
> grasp. Maybe I should have gotten the salad.
>
>
>
> Fortunately for me, the restaurant wouldn't take her card because she
>
> didn't have the required ID so I got to pay for it! Looks like I win
>
> again - sucker!

Where is the world did a resto want an ID before taking a card? I'm surprised. Didn't she have a photo driver's license on her? How embarrassing. Bet you were gloating up a storm, huh?

On 2/2/2013 4:11 PM, Kalmia wrote:
> Where is the world did a resto want an ID before taking a card? I'm surprised. Didn't she have a photo driver's license on her? How embarrassing. Bet you were gloating up a storm, huh?
>

This is an excellent question - I don't know. She flew over here to get
some work done on her mom's condo and wasn't loaded up with her full
gear. This was the Like Like drive-in on Keeaumoku street on Oahu. The
place used to only accept cash until recently so maybe they're paranoid
about paying with plastic. I had no trouble because, I had my driver's
license.

As far as the gloating goes, we don't gloat over here. Unfortunately for
us, it's culturally expected to fight over the check.

Janet Bostwick > wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 11:10:42 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> On 02/02/2013 10:47 AM, Gary wrote:
>>
>>> For example... say for a party of 2-3 people and the bill comes to $100.
>>> Rather than pay $118, I will pay $125-130. We are talking a small
>>> difference of 7-12 dollars extra here for a tip to help out a good waitress
>>> who probably makes about $3 per hour plus tips.
>>>
>>> Your bill would be at least $118 (with an 18% tip). Will it kill you to add
>>> a few more dollars and make someones day?
>>
>> Okay... turn it around..... if it is a small difference it shouldn't
>> affect the server if you don't leave it.
>>
>>
>>> IMO, people that are tight with tipping should stay home and cook.
>>
>>
>> I don't have a problem with the amount so much as I do with the
>> institution of tipping, the idea that some people should be so poorly
>> paid that they have to depend on the generosity of their customers to
>> make a decent living. I am all in favour of a system like they have in
>> places like the Netherlands, Germany and (most of) France where tax and
>> service are included in the menu price, so what you see is what you pay.
>> If you order 6 items ate 5 Euros, your bill is 30 Euros.... no extras
>> for tax, no calculating what is appropriate for a tip.
>>
>>
>> Bear mind that a tip, or gratuity, by definition, is voluntary. Some
>> people in the business have come to expect it, a sort of entitlement.
>> Not only that, the expect to be tipped a percentage on the entire bill,
>> including the tax. Worse yet, they argue that because of inflation the
>> percentage should be higher, suggesting a minimum of 20%.
>>
>> Then we hear the argument that if you can afford to go out for dinner
>> you can afford to leave a big tip. Screw that. If they want to jack up
>> their prices with outrageous markups I am already paying a lot for the
>> luxury of going out to eat. For instance, we went to a place last
>> summer where they charge $14 for glass of wine, about the same price as
>> a whole bottle of that particular wine. That means a 500-600% markup on
>> the wine.
>>
>>
>> I am supposed to pay 15% on top of that for a service...... $12 to pour
>> the wine into a glass and walk 20 feet to the table?? Hold it.... no,
>> that is not enough..... it is an expensive restaurant, and if I can
>> afford to pay their high prices I should be able to afford 20%.. Not
>> when I am already being gouged. Sorry, but that is a racket.
>>
>>
>>
> So you're going to retaliate against the lowest, most helpless figure
> on the totem pole? You can argue your indignation against a system
> you don't like but you don't affect the restaurant owner one iota
> unless you stay home and don't eat out. When you eat out and pay your
> bill, the restaurant still gets all their profit, doesn't make any
> difference to their bottom line whether you tip or not.
> Janet US

Wrong. Restaurants have to make up missing minimum wages when not getting
enough tips.


Greg

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:47:22 -0500, Gary > wrote:



>
>For example... say for a party of 2-3 people and the bill comes to $100.
>Rather than pay $118, I will pay $125-130. We are talking a small
>difference of 7-12 dollars extra here for a tip to help out a good waitress
>who probably makes about $3 per hour plus tips.
>
>Your bill would be at least $118 (with an 18% tip). Will it kill you to add
>a few more dollars and make someones day?
>
>IMO, people that are tight with tipping should stay home and cook.
>
>Gary

This brings up another point. Let's say you go to a restaurant with
another person. You order a beverage, an entree, then dessert and
coffee. The wait person had to make a few trips to serve you. How
much should you tip?

Notice, I did not say what the bill was. You may have gone to a local
family restaurant and have a $40 bill for the two of you or you could
be dining at a high end place and have a $140 bill for two. The
waiter gave the same time and effort to you in both places. Does one
deserve a lot more money? Why?

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 09:43:50 -0700, Janet Bostwick
> wrote:



>>Then we hear the argument that if you can afford to go out for dinner
>>you can afford to leave a big tip. Screw that. If they want to jack up
>>their prices with outrageous markups I am already paying a lot for the
>>luxury of going out to eat. For instance, we went to a place last
>>summer where they charge $14 for glass of wine, about the same price as
>>a whole bottle of that particular wine. That means a 500-600% markup on
>>the wine.
>>
>>
>>I am supposed to pay 15% on top of that for a service...... $12 to pour
>>the wine into a glass and walk 20 feet to the table?? Hold it.... no,
>>that is not enough..... it is an expensive restaurant, and if I can
>>afford to pay their high prices I should be able to afford 20%.. Not
>>when I am already being gouged. Sorry, but that is a racket.
>>
>>
>>
>So you're going to retaliate against the lowest, most helpless figure
>on the totem pole? You can argue your indignation against a system
>you don't like but you don't affect the restaurant owner one iota
>unless you stay home and don't eat out. When you eat out and pay your
>bill, the restaurant still gets all their profit, doesn't make any
>difference to their bottom line whether you tip or not.
>Janet US

I would not call it retaliation. I tip well for a meal, but I don't
add 20% on the top of a bottle of wine. It may take a little bit more
labor to bring a $30 bottle of wine than a $2 soda but one would pay
40¢ in tip, the other $6. Fair? Is it fair to ask for a glass of
water and leave 0¢ for a tip? That is what I often drink with my
meal. I'm talking over the tip you'd leave for the food service of
course.