On 2012-08-31, dsi1 > wrote:

> Probably the most important reason is so you can fry with it. There's
> nothing special about ghee - it's just the kind of fat that was
> available.

That, and the cow is sacred to Hindu Indians. They use it for
everyhing. Ghee, cheese, yogurt, ice cream, etc. They even use the
cow doody to plaster their houses/floors/etc. No kidding.

> In this country, people routinely used pork fat because that's what
> they could render. These days, we mostly use vegetable oil. My
> guess is that's what the Indians use too.

Perhaps rich Indians. Poor indians still rely on the cow.

nb



--
Definition of objectivism:
"Eff you! I got mine."
http://www.nongmoproject.org/

notbob wrote:

> > In this country, people routinely used pork fat because that's what
> > they could render. These days, we mostly use vegetable oil. My
> > guess is that's what the Indians use too.
>
> Perhaps rich Indians. Poor indians still rely on the cow.

Are you saying cows are no longer sacred in India?

George M. Middius wrote:

>>> In this country, people routinely used pork fat because that's what
>>> they could render. These days, we mostly use vegetable oil. My
>>> guess is that's what the Indians use too.

>> Perhaps rich Indians. Poor indians still rely on the cow.

> Are you saying cows are no longer sacred in India?

Why shoudln't cows be no more sacred? To have butter/ghee one just needs to
milk the cow, not kill it, and cows in India have always been milked.

On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 10:19:50 -0400, George M. Middius
> wrote:

>notbob wrote:
>
>> > In this country, people routinely used pork fat because that's what
>> > they could render. These days, we mostly use vegetable oil. My
>> > guess is that's what the Indians use too.
>>
>> Perhaps rich Indians. Poor indians still rely on the cow.
>
>Are you saying cows are no longer sacred in India?
>
You didn't read the cite I gave you, did you? If you had, you could
have eliminated most of what you posted in this thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee
Janet US

ViLco wrote:

> >>> In this country, people routinely used pork fat because that's what
> >>> they could render. These days, we mostly use vegetable oil. My
> >>> guess is that's what the Indians use too.
>
> >> Perhaps rich Indians. Poor indians still rely on the cow.
>
> > Are you saying cows are no longer sacred in India?
>
> Why shoudln't cows be no more sacred? To have butter/ghee one just needs to
> milk the cow, not kill it, and cows in India have always been milked.

Oh, right. I thought he meant rendered lard.

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> You didn't read the cite I gave you, did you? If you had, you could
> have eliminated most of what you posted in this thread.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee


No yak, no ghee.

On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:11:06 -0400, George M. Middius
> wrote:

>Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
>> You didn't read the cite I gave you, did you? If you had, you could
>> have eliminated most of what you posted in this thread.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee
>
>
>No yak, no ghee.
>
Please give me a cite so that I can read more about ghee needing to be
made with yak milk.
Janet US

Gary > wrote in :

> "George M. Middius" wrote:
>>
>> Gary wrote:
>>
>> > So.....are the milk solids used too after clarifying butter?
>> > Surely there must be a good use for them too.
>>
>> Put them back in the butter, of course. Why use butter at all if
>> you're going to neuter it?
>
>
> that's what I was wondering. I've never understood the need to
> clarify it. But if you do, there must be a use for the solids too?
>
> G.

Gary,

The milk solids burn quickly. Clarified butter permits browning without
burning the butter into a black mess. It also raises the smoke point of
the butter also producing better browning.

A plus is you can store clarified butter without refridgeration. It was
one of my main items for use in backpacking.

John

On 8/31/2012 1:58 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2012-08-31, dsi1 > wrote:
>
>> Probably the most important reason is so you can fry with it. There's
>> nothing special about ghee - it's just the kind of fat that was
>> available.
>
> That, and the cow is sacred to Hindu Indians. They use it for
> everyhing. Ghee, cheese, yogurt, ice cream, etc. They even use the
> cow doody to plaster their houses/floors/etc. No kidding.
>
>> In this country, people routinely used pork fat because that's what
>> they could render. These days, we mostly use vegetable oil. My
>> guess is that's what the Indians use too.
>
> Perhaps rich Indians. Poor indians still rely on the cow.
>
> nb
>

Why would that be? Do most Indians, even the poor ones, own cows? My
guess is that even if you did own a cow, vegetable oil would be cheaper
and easier to get.

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> >No yak, no ghee.
> >
> Please give me a cite so that I can read more about ghee needing to be
> made with yak milk.

I cite tradition, and nothing more!

"George M. Middius" > wrote in message
...
> ViLco wrote:
>
>> >>> In this country, people routinely used pork fat because that's what
>> >>> they could render. These days, we mostly use vegetable oil. My
>> >>> guess is that's what the Indians use too.
>>
>> >> Perhaps rich Indians. Poor indians still rely on the cow.
>>
>> > Are you saying cows are no longer sacred in India?
>>
>> Why shoudln't cows be no more sacred? To have butter/ghee one just needs
>> to
>> milk the cow, not kill it, and cows in India have always been milked.
>
> Oh, right. I thought he meant rendered lard.

are you sure you didn't mean suet, rather than lard?

dsi1 wrote:
> notbob wrote:
>> dsi1 > wrote:
>
>>> In this country, people routinely used pork fat because that's what
>>> they could render. These days, we mostly use vegetable oil. My
>>> guess is that's what the Indians use too.
>
>> Perhaps rich Indians. Poor indians still rely on the cow.
>
> Why would that be? Do most Indians, even the poor ones, own cows? My
> guess is that even if you did own a cow, vegetable oil would be cheaper
> and easier to get.

I thought cows wander around mostly free. As such any poor person can
milk a cow that's nearby and make products from the milk. The milk
becomes a resource that is free but only available in limited quantities.

On 8/31/2012 9:11 AM, Doug Freyburger wrote:
> dsi1 wrote:
>> notbob wrote:
>>> dsi1 > wrote:
>>
>>>> In this country, people routinely used pork fat because that's what
>>>> they could render. These days, we mostly use vegetable oil. My
>>>> guess is that's what the Indians use too.
>>
>>> Perhaps rich Indians. Poor indians still rely on the cow.
>>
>> Why would that be? Do most Indians, even the poor ones, own cows? My
>> guess is that even if you did own a cow, vegetable oil would be cheaper
>> and easier to get.
>
> I thought cows wander around mostly free. As such any poor person can
> milk a cow that's nearby and make products from the milk. The milk
> becomes a resource that is free but only available in limited quantities.
>

I like that idea. If it ain't true, it outta be. I have a hard time
seeing a poor guy making butter out of milk and then making ghee out of
the butter. My guess is that they drink the milk or cook with it, not
try to refine it into cooking oil.

Janet Bostwick > wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee

There is a lot of misinformation given in this thread. That Wikipedia
article contains no direct misinformation, as far as I can tell, but it
still misinforms by omission. For example, it omits the very important
fact that ghee is made with water-buffalo milk just as often as with cow
milk - it depends on the region. Also, ghee is very expensive in India
and is mostly used by rich people. Here is a link to an old Shankar
post where he mentions all of this and more. I'd regard any Shankar
post on Indian food as about a hundred times more reliable than any
Wikipedia article on the same subject. The fact that ghee is not just
clarified butter is a given, anyway.

<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/3100e8d8c57a9353>

Victor

Pico Rico wrote:

> > Oh, right. I thought he meant rendered lard.
>
> are you sure you didn't mean suet, rather than lard?

Sure, whatever. Rendered fat from mammal carcasses.

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 00:05:06 +0200, (Victor Sack)
wrote:

>Janet Bostwick > wrote:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee
>
>There is a lot of misinformation given in this thread. That Wikipedia
>article contains no direct misinformation, as far as I can tell, but it
>still misinforms by omission. For example, it omits the very important
>fact that ghee is made with water-buffalo milk just as often as with cow
>milk - it depends on the region. Also, ghee is very expensive in India
>and is mostly used by rich people. Here is a link to an old Shankar
>post where he mentions all of this and more. I'd regard any Shankar
>post on Indian food as about a hundred times more reliable than any
>Wikipedia article on the same subject. The fact that ghee is not just
>clarified butter is a given, anyway.
>
><http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/3100e8d8c57a9353>
>
>Victor
The original point I made was that cow's milk was just fine to use.
The info in the above link only makes common sense.
The way I see it is if you have water buffalo, you make water buffalo
ghee, if you have yak, you use yak, cows, you use cow. I suspect that
the origins were preservation of a surplus food . That it is now used
for flavor enrichment or high temp cooking or that only wealthy people
use it has nothing to do with how it can be made. Why send to Tibet
for milk if you have a perfectly good source of butterfat on hand?
Janet US

On 2012-08-31, Victor Sack > wrote:

> Also, ghee is very expensive in India and is mostly used by rich
> people.

I think you are disseminating misinformation.

Perhaps poor urban Indians can't afford ghee, but it's all many rural
Indians....you know, the one's who use water buffalos to plow their
fields.... have.

One newly educated urban Indian tried to save his dirt poor home
village from what he thought was a outmoded way of living. He talked
the elders into converting their small rural village into a co-op that
milked their cows/buffs and sold the surplus milk to earn cash. Put
the bovines in dairy pens instead of letting them crap all over the
fields, etc. It was a train wreck.

It was in this documentary I learned cow crap can be used as a
plastering medium and insecticide. It was originally spread on their
floors, walls, patios, etc. Yeah. Who knew? Know what happened when
the bovine feces was no longer available. Not only did the crops
suffer from a decrease in fertilizer, but huge hordes of flies plagued
the village. Turns out the DRIED dung acted as some kinda natural
anti-fly agent. The young college student that was gonna save his
village tore all his work asunder and let the villagers go back to
their centuries old way of life of gorging on ghee and dispersing
dung, lesson learned.


nb


--
Definition of objectivism:
"Eff you! I got mine."
http://www.nongmoproject.org/

On 2012-08-31, dsi1 > wrote:

> Why would that be? Do most Indians, even the poor ones, own cows? My
> guess is that even if you did own a cow, vegetable oil would be cheaper
> and easier to get.

Not every Indian wears a reverse baseball cap and has a Plantronics
boom in his face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tt-n...ture=endscreen


nb

--
Definition of objectivism:
"Eff you! I got mine."
http://www.nongmoproject.org/

On 2012-08-31, dsi1 > wrote:

> Why would that be? Do most Indians, even the poor ones, own cows? My
> guess is that even if you did own a cow, vegetable oil would be cheaper
> and easier to get.

Probably so, but I think part of it may be how long it will keep
without a consistently operative form of refridgeration and with
sometimes significantly hot weather. I don't know, but am assuming
such things reconcile distinctions we think of purely as cost.

On 9/1/2012 7:04 AM, gtr wrote:
> On 2012-08-31, dsi1 > wrote:
>
>> Why would that be? Do most Indians, even the poor ones, own cows? My
>> guess is that even if you did own a cow, vegetable oil would be cheaper
>> and easier to get.
>
> Probably so, but I think part of it may be how long it will keep without
> a consistently operative form of refridgeration and with sometimes
> significantly hot weather. I don't know, but am assuming such things
> reconcile distinctions we think of purely as cost.
>

Ghee's ability to keep was probably important before there was
refrigeration - probably not so important these days. OTOH, maybe a lot
of the poor folks don't have refrigeration. Beats me. OTOH, I can't
imagine that ghee has much of an advantage over plain old vegetable oil.

dsi1 wrote:

> Ghee's ability to keep was probably important before there was
> refrigeration - probably not so important these days. OTOH, maybe a lot
> of the poor folks don't have refrigeration. Beats me. OTOH, I can't
> imagine that ghee has much of an advantage over plain old vegetable oil.

I think the refrigeration angle is a very good guess. All this fuss
about frying in clarified butter is just plain foolish these days. You
can always finish a dish with a little fresh butter. That gives you
much better butter flavor than any amount of frying in the clarified
stuff.

On 9/1/2012 7:36 AM, George M. Middius wrote:
> dsi1 wrote:
>
>> Ghee's ability to keep was probably important before there was
>> refrigeration - probably not so important these days. OTOH, maybe a lot
>> of the poor folks don't have refrigeration. Beats me. OTOH, I can't
>> imagine that ghee has much of an advantage over plain old vegetable oil.
>
> I think the refrigeration angle is a very good guess. All this fuss
> about frying in clarified butter is just plain foolish these days. You
> can always finish a dish with a little fresh butter. That gives you
> much better butter flavor than any amount of frying in the clarified
> stuff.
>
>

Refrigeration was certainly a game changer. People used to spend a lot
of time preserving food. OTOH, the search for new sources of spices
pretty much drove the exploration of the new world. OTOH, I guess we
still spend a lot of time and effort preserving food - we just let other
people do that for us.

On 2012-09-01 17:26:44 +0000, dsi1 said:

> On 9/1/2012 7:04 AM, gtr wrote:
>> On 2012-08-31, dsi1 > wrote:
>>
>>> Why would that be? Do most Indians, even the poor ones, own cows? My
>>> guess is that even if you did own a cow, vegetable oil would be cheaper
>>> and easier to get.
>>
>> Probably so, but I think part of it may be how long it will keep without
>> a consistently operative form of refridgeration and with sometimes
>> significantly hot weather. I don't know, but am assuming such things
>> reconcile distinctions we think of purely as cost.
>>
>
> Ghee's ability to keep was probably important before there was
> refrigeration - probably not so important these days.

I think it's still a fair share of India that continues to live without
*consistent* power. Got no stats for that, but that's my assumption.

> OTOH, maybe a lot of the poor folks don't have refrigeration. Beats me.
> OTOH, I can't imagine that ghee has much of an advantage over plain old
> vegetable oil.

Tough to say. I assume that at one time alternatives were rejected
because of very good reasons. Now legacy and habit may well be the
remaining rational.

On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 13:36:49 -0400, George M. Middius
> wrote:

>dsi1 wrote:
>
>> Ghee's ability to keep was probably important before there was
>> refrigeration - probably not so important these days. OTOH, maybe a lot
>> of the poor folks don't have refrigeration. Beats me. OTOH, I can't
>> imagine that ghee has much of an advantage over plain old vegetable oil.
>
>I think the refrigeration angle is a very good guess. All this fuss
>about frying in clarified butter is just plain foolish these days. You
>can always finish a dish with a little fresh butter. That gives you
>much better butter flavor than any amount of frying in the clarified
>stuff.
>
I can't imagine that you can't taste the difference between corn oil,
peanut oil and olive oil in a dish. Why should cooking with ghee be
any different?
Janet US

On 2012-09-01 20:42:51 +0000, Janet Bostwick said:

> I can't imagine that you can't taste the difference between corn oil,
> peanut oil and olive oil in a dish.

Don't use your imagination--heat it up good in a pan and try it.

> Why should cooking with ghee be any different?

That's generally my thinking.

Nevertheless it has to do with how simple the dish is flavor-wise and
how much of the profile of the dish is leveraged by the oil. If I just
stir fried some bell pepper in these three oils I think I could tell
the difference.

On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 15:45:18 -0700, gtr > wrote:

>On 2012-09-01 20:42:51 +0000, Janet Bostwick said:
>
>> I can't imagine that you can't taste the difference between corn oil,
>> peanut oil and olive oil in a dish.
>
>Don't use your imagination--heat it up good in a pan and try it.
>
>> Why should cooking with ghee be any different?
>
>That's generally my thinking.
>
>Nevertheless it has to do with how simple the dish is flavor-wise and
>how much of the profile of the dish is leveraged by the oil. If I just
>stir fried some bell pepper in these three oils I think I could tell
>the difference.

You need to be brave and taste each oil all by itself, uncooked. That
is the essence of its taste. It will then be evident in the cooked
food.
Janet US

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> You need to be brave and taste each oil all by itself, uncooked. That
> is the essence of its taste. It will then be evident in the cooked
> food.

I disagree. The better way to anticipate the flavor of cooked oil is
to cook it before tasting it.

Whew. That was some heavy lifting, logic-wise. I need a drink.

On 2012-09-02 01:43:16 +0000, Janet Bostwick said:

>>> I can't imagine that you can't taste the difference between corn oil,
>>> peanut oil and olive oil in a dish.
>>
>> Don't use your imagination--heat it up good in a pan and try it.

> You need to be brave and taste each oil all by itself, uncooked. That
> is the essence of its taste. It will then be evident in the cooked
> food.

A curious assertion. I wholeheartedly disagree. By that token I should
lick a steak or piece of salmon to know what it's like when it's
cooked. Okay, so maybe that's going too far.

Nevertheless, a heated oil tastes much differently than an oil at room
temperature, and it's that oil that does the labor in a sauté. It's not
"bravery" that leads me to that thinking but a question of what the
"real world" operation would be.