I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
hours.

Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
then into matchsticks.

Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
recipe?

Isaac

"isw" > wrote in message
]...
>I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> hours.
>
> Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> then into matchsticks.
>
> Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> recipe?
>
> Isaac

My Crockpot doesn't have an actual temp. on it. Just high and low. I
usually cook most things on high for an hour then the rest on low. For
beef, I would cook it at least 6 hours. More likely 8 or 9.

On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:40:53 -0700, isw > wrote:

>I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
>stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
>shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
>still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
>hours.
>
>Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
>hands to strip off the membranes and so on.


Not enough time.

On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 06:01:49 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:40:53 -0700, isw > wrote:
>
>>I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
>>stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
>>shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
>>still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
>>hours.
>>
>>Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
>>hands to strip off the membranes and so on.
>
>
>Not enough time.


I agree-- At 155 [and I would be more likely to use 180 or so, I
think-- my slow cooker doesn't use temps & I just know it is closer to
a simmer], I'd be thinking 10 hours--

Jim

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:40:53 -0700, isw wrote:
>
> > I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> > stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> > shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> > still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> > hours.
> >
> > Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> > hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> > stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> > shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> > then into matchsticks.
> >
> > Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> > the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> > recipe?
> >
> > Isaac
>
> How are you measuring the temp in a CrockPot? I don't think I could
> get as low as 155F in either of my CP's after an hour of warming up.
> 185F is what I'm guessing (on low). Which is perfect for chuck, IMO.
>
> The beef may have been stressed and missed it's electric stimuli after
> the bolt missed the brain. No two sides of beef are ever the same.
>
> Safeway?
>
> -sw

I expect it need to get past the 190 point for long enough for the
collagen to break down just like a brisket. Sounds like it simply didn't
get hot enough and less of a time issue.

On Friday, June 1, 2012 8:10:47 AM UTC-5, Pete C. wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:40:53 -0700, isw wrote:
> >
> > > I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> > > stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> > > shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> > > still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> > > hours.
> > >
> > > Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> > > hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> > > stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> > > shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> > > then into matchsticks.
> > >
> > > Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> > > the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> > > recipe?
> > >
> > > Isaac
> >
> > How are you measuring the temp in a CrockPot? I don't think I could
> > get as low as 155F in either of my CP's after an hour of warming up.
> > 185F is what I'm guessing (on low). Which is perfect for chuck, IMO.
> >
> > The beef may have been stressed and missed it's electric stimuli after
> > the bolt missed the brain. No two sides of beef are ever the same.
> >
> > Safeway?
> >
> > -sw
>
> I expect it need to get past the 190 point for long enough for the
> collagen to break down just like a brisket. Sounds like it simply didn't
> get hot enough and less of a time issue.


Something a little acidic in the mix wouldn't have hurt, either. Helps break things down.

On 2012-06-01 04:40:53 +0000, isw said:

> I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> hours.
>
> Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> then into matchsticks.
>
> Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> recipe?

Maybe I missed the installment, but what recipe are the talking about?

Curiously, I had my first encounter with Italian Beef sandwich just yesterday.

After reading a discussion long ago in this usegroup I've kept my eyes
peeled for an "Italian Beef Sandwich". Couldn't find same at either of
the conspicuous Italian Deli's. But did encounter a gardineira (the
mild, Il Primo, St. Charles, LA) and an olive salad (Boscoli, Kenner,
LA) that I have become addicted to and can eat spooned on or into
almost anything including pasta sauce, salads, and sandwiches of
anything--or nothing as I'll eat either on a french roll as is.

The gardineira was a revelation after eating the overly crisp highly
vinegared gardeira from Mezzetta.

So on my way back from an errand yesterday I found a hot dog stand that
purported to sell Italian Beef Sandwiches. Everything was chicago-ish
(though in Huntington Beach) I got a Chicago dog which was good and
finally got home and dug into the sandwich.

Not so good. The beef had an overly tart, heavily-flavored taste that
was not particularly pleasant. I was surprised to find serranos sliced
thick thrown on top with some choped carrots and precious few celery
chunks. The serranos were pickled pretty well and weren't searing hot.
The carrots and celery not so much. And there wasn't a lot of the
gardeira anyway.

Not good at all. I'm hoping it wasn't authentic in any way.

In article >,
Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:40:53 -0700, isw > wrote:
>
> >I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> >stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> >shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> >still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> >hours.
> >
> >Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> >hands to strip off the membranes and so on.
>
>
> Not enough time.

So, how long? At what temperature?

Isaac

In article >,
Sqwertz > wrote:

> On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:40:53 -0700, isw wrote:
>
> > I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> > stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> > shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> > still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> > hours.
> >
> > Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> > hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> > stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> > shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> > then into matchsticks.
> >
> > Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> > the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> > recipe?
> >
> > Isaac
>
> How are you measuring the temp in a CrockPot?

Actually, I used the same temperature probe and controller I built for
doing sous vide. It's good to about 2 degrees F.

> I don't think I could
> get as low as 155F in either of my CP's after an hour of warming up.
> 185F is what I'm guessing (on low). Which is perfect for chuck, IMO.
>
> The beef may have been stressed and missed it's electric stimuli after
> the bolt missed the brain. No two sides of beef are ever the same.
>
> Safeway?

If all I could get was Safeway meat, I'd go vegetarian.

Isaac

In article > ,
"Pete C." > wrote:

> Sqwertz wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:40:53 -0700, isw wrote:
> >
> > > I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> > > stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> > > shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> > > still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> > > hours.
> > >
> > > Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> > > hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> > > stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> > > shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> > > then into matchsticks.
> > >
> > > Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> > > the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> > > recipe?
> > >
> > > Isaac
> >
> > How are you measuring the temp in a CrockPot? I don't think I could
> > get as low as 155F in either of my CP's after an hour of warming up.
> > 185F is what I'm guessing (on low). Which is perfect for chuck, IMO.
> >
> > The beef may have been stressed and missed it's electric stimuli after
> > the bolt missed the brain. No two sides of beef are ever the same.
> >
> > Safeway?
> >
> > -sw
>
> I expect it need to get past the 190 point for long enough for the
> collagen to break down just like a brisket. Sounds like it simply didn't
> get hot enough and less of a time issue.

I did my St. Patrick's day corned beef brisket at 145 F for 24 hours
sous vide; it was wonderful.

Next time I do Italian beef, I think I'll do the chuck that way and then
mix everything together.

Isaac

On May 31, 9:40*pm, isw > wrote:
> I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> hours.
>
> Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> then into matchsticks.
>
> Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> recipe?

This is not a recipe for Chicago-style Italian beef. That is a recipe
for pot roast. Pot roast reaches the "falling apart" stage. Italian
beef never does.

Chicago-style Italian beef is rump or round, roasted rare, allowed to
cool, and sliced paper thin. The sliced beef is then marinated in a
seasoned au jus. One recipe I have calls for garlic clove slivers to
be inserted in slashes in the beef, which is then sprinkled with
fennel seeds before roasting. Juice and beef is heated before serving.
Eat preferably in Gonnella bread, although where I live, Vietnamese
baguettes are an acceptable substitute.

Fontana's Subs sells a killer hot giardiniera, which is essentially
just peppers and olives.

On Jun 1, 1:00*pm, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
> On May 31, 9:40*pm, isw > wrote:
>
> > I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> > stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> > shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> > still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> > hours.
>
> > Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> > hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> > stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> > shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> > then into matchsticks.
>
> > Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> > the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> > recipe?
>
> This is not a recipe for Chicago-style Italian beef. That is a recipe
> for pot roast. Pot roast reaches the "falling apart" stage. Italian
> beef never does.
>
> Chicago-style Italian beef is rump or round, roasted rare, allowed to
> cool, and sliced paper thin. The sliced beef is then marinated in a
> seasoned au jus. One recipe I have calls for garlic clove slivers to
> be inserted in slashes in the beef, which is then sprinkled with
> fennel seeds before roasting. Juice and beef is heated before serving.
> Eat *preferably in Gonnella bread, although where I live, Vietnamese
> baguettes are an acceptable substitute.
>
> Fontana's Subs sells a killer hot giardiniera, which is essentially
> just peppers and olives.

you finally made a mistake. it's ok. you don't make many.
au jus; au jus = with juice. marinated in a seasoned with juice.

On Jun 1, 10:37*am, A Moose in Love >
wrote:
> On Jun 1, 1:00*pm, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 9:40*pm, isw > wrote:
>
> > > I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> > > stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> > > shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> > > still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> > > hours.
>
> > > Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> > > hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> > > stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> > > shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> > > then into matchsticks.
>
> > > Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> > > the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> > > recipe?
>
> > This is not a recipe for Chicago-style Italian beef. That is a recipe
> > for pot roast. Pot roast reaches the "falling apart" stage. Italian
> > beef never does.
>
> > Chicago-style Italian beef is rump or round, roasted rare, allowed to
> > cool, and sliced paper thin. The sliced beef is then marinated in a
> > seasoned au jus. One recipe I have calls for garlic clove slivers to
> > be inserted in slashes in the beef, which is then sprinkled with
> > fennel seeds before roasting. Juice and beef is heated before serving.
> > Eat *preferably in Gonnella bread, although where I live, Vietnamese
> > baguettes are an acceptable substitute.
>
> > Fontana's Subs sells a killer hot giardiniera, which is essentially
> > just peppers and olives.
>
> you finally made a mistake. *it's ok. *you don't make many.
> au jus; au jus = with juice. *marinated in a seasoned with juice.

Speak AMERICAN goddamnit.

On Jun 1, 1:45*pm, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
> On Jun 1, 10:37*am, A Moose in Love >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 1, 1:00*pm, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>
> > > On May 31, 9:40*pm, isw > wrote:
>
> > > > I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> > > > stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> > > > shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> > > > still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> > > > hours.
>
> > > > Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> > > > hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> > > > stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> > > > shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> > > > then into matchsticks.
>
> > > > Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> > > > the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> > > > recipe?
>
> > > This is not a recipe for Chicago-style Italian beef. That is a recipe
> > > for pot roast. Pot roast reaches the "falling apart" stage. Italian
> > > beef never does.
>
> > > Chicago-style Italian beef is rump or round, roasted rare, allowed to
> > > cool, and sliced paper thin. The sliced beef is then marinated in a
> > > seasoned au jus. One recipe I have calls for garlic clove slivers to
> > > be inserted in slashes in the beef, which is then sprinkled with
> > > fennel seeds before roasting. Juice and beef is heated before serving..
> > > Eat *preferably in Gonnella bread, although where I live, Vietnamese
> > > baguettes are an acceptable substitute.
>
> > > Fontana's Subs sells a killer hot giardiniera, which is essentially
> > > just peppers and olives.
>
> > you finally made a mistake. *it's ok. *you don't make many.
> > au jus; au jus = with juice. *marinated in a seasoned with juice.
>
> Speak AMERICAN goddamnit.

i'm canadian. we spell different than youse. for instance, superior
(US) is spelt Superiour here. let's celebrate our differences.

On 2012-06-01 17:00:48 +0000, spamtrap1888 said:

> Fontana's Subs sells a killer hot giardiniera, which is essentially
> just peppers and olives.

What kind of peppers?

isw wrote:
> "Pete C." > wrote:
>
>> I expect it need to get past the 190 point for long enough for the
>> collagen to break down just like a brisket. Sounds like it simply didn't
>> get hot enough and less of a time issue.
>
> I did my St. Patrick's day corned beef brisket at 145 F for 24 hours
> sous vide; it was wonderful.

Note that corned beef is already pickled so its connective tissue is
already softened.

> Next time I do Italian beef, I think I'll do the chuck that way and then
> mix everything together.

I'd take it higher to make sure the collagen is melted. I'd also cook
it with the spices not add them later.

gtr wrote:
>
> So on my way back from an errand yesterday I found a hot dog stand that
> purported to sell Italian Beef Sandwiches. Everything was chicago-ish

If they had Jay's brand chips, Baby Ruth and Butterfingers the place was
authentic Chicago ethnic.

> (though in Huntington Beach) I got a Chicago dog which was good and
> finally got home and dug into the sandwich.

When I moved to Chicago I was underwhelmed by the hot dogs. Hot dogs
start out one of the smallest flavor meats and to boil them extracts
what little flavor they started with. Then they fail to toast the bun so
texture is lost and they add some kyponite green goop. Ah well,
unlimited other excellent local food here. Way more than just the
fabulous pizzas.

> Not so good. The beef had an overly tart, heavily-flavored taste that
> was not particularly pleasant. I was surprised to find serranos sliced
> thick thrown on top with some choped carrots and precious few celery
> chunks. The serranos were pickled pretty well and weren't searing hot.
> The carrots and celery not so much. And there wasn't a lot of the
> gardeira anyway.
>
> Not good at all. I'm hoping it wasn't authentic in any way.

Chicago style Italian Beef is almost pickled. Say ten+ percent of the
way towards sauerbraten. It's so tender chewing is optional. And it is
spiced though the places that have it here range widely in the amount
of spice used in it.

The flavor pattern tends to work best when still hot. Either you
disliked it because it cooled too much and/or you don't like the
pickling process and don't want to go all the way to sauerbraten.

Based on your description I think it was authentic.

spamtrap1888 wrote:
>
> This is not a recipe for Chicago-style Italian beef. That is a recipe
> for pot roast. Pot roast reaches the "falling apart" stage. Italian
> beef never does.
>
> Chicago-style Italian beef is rump or round, roasted rare, allowed to
> cool, and sliced paper thin. The sliced beef is then marinated in a
> seasoned au jus. One recipe I have calls for garlic clove slivers to
> be inserted in slashes in the beef, which is then sprinkled with
> fennel seeds before roasting. Juice and beef is heated before serving.

Here is where I disagree with the falling part bit. The Italian beef as
seerved at Buena Beef or at Portillos is soft enough that chewing is
optional. They are by far the most popular places that sell Italian
beef here in the burbs. There are places that sell theirs not falling
part but they are not the places that are jammed during the lunch hour.

> Eat preferably in Gonnella bread, although where I live, Vietnamese
> baguettes are an acceptable substitute.
>
> Fontana's Subs sells a killer hot giardiniera, which is essentially
> just peppers and olives.

It's wonderful but less popular. The more popular ones have celery and
maybe capers. Also wonderful just more popular.

On 2012-06-01 20:20:55 +0000, Doug Freyburger said:

> The flavor pattern tends to work best when still hot. Either you
> disliked it because it cooled too much and/or you don't like the
> pickling process and don't want to go all the way to sauerbraten.

I love sauerbraten.

> Based on your description I think it was authentic.

Thanks for the input, that's an interesting conclusion. I'll reject it
because a sandwich so dearly loved by so many for so long simply could
not taste this bad. I have quite varied tastes and am quite
broad-minded. Then, considering the gardineira, if I can buy jarred
gardineira that's vastly better--also not such good sign.

I note in reading on line that "French breads don't cut it" for this
kind of sandwich, and on their menu they say just that.

<http://www.amazingribs.com/recipes/beef/italian_beef.html>

Certainly some foods when cooled off a bit aren't what they might be
and might even lose a defining quality. But piping hot the flavor
couldn't have tasted that different.

The next time I'm in Chicago I want the real deal for a point of
comparison. Any restaurant/joint in Chicago that is generally accepted
as a straight-up example?

On 2012-06-01 21:42:50 +0000, gtr said:

> The next time I'm in Chicago I want the real deal for a point of
> comparison. Any restaurant/joint in Chicago that is generally accepted
> as a straight-up example?

Ah, I see again on this website what some have proclaimed as arguably the best:

<http://www.amazingribs.com/recipes/beef/italian_beef.html>

Seems a good place to start the quest.

In related news I did a shwerma crawl over a number of months in Little
Gaza (now inexplicably called Little Arabia) in Anaheim. Of course the
hunt ranged across Orange, Fullerton, Tustin, etc.

Who cares who won (Sahara Falafel)? It was a fantastic process!

On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 10:00:48 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
> wrote:

>On May 31, 9:40*pm, isw > wrote:
>> I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
>> stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
>> shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
>> still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
>> hours.
>>
>> Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
>> hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
>> stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
>> shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
>> then into matchsticks.
>>
>> Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
>> the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
>> recipe?
>
>This is not a recipe for Chicago-style Italian beef. That is a recipe
>for pot roast. Pot roast reaches the "falling apart" stage. Italian
>beef never does.

'Zactly!

Italian style roast beef is typically top or eye round dry/oven
roasted to no more than medium rare, and thinly sliced cold... good in
a sandwich or as part of an antipasto platter. What isw made is chuck
pot roast, that's Jewish beef. You can't make Italian roast beef in a
crockpot.

>Chicago-style Italian beef is rump or round, roasted rare, allowed to
>cool, and sliced paper thin. The sliced beef is then marinated in a
>seasoned au jus. One recipe I have calls for garlic clove slivers to
>be inserted in slashes in the beef, which is then sprinkled with
>fennel seeds before roasting. Juice and beef is heated before serving.
>Eat preferably in Gonnella bread, although where I live, Vietnamese
>baguettes are an acceptable substitute.
>
>Fontana's Subs sells a killer hot giardiniera, which is essentially
>just peppers and olives.

isw wrote:
> I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> hours.
>
> Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> then into matchsticks.
>
> Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> recipe?
>
> Isaac
Lou would be all over this one!

In article >,
Sqwertz > wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 09:49:40 -0700, isw wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Sqwertz > wrote:
> >
> >> How are you measuring the temp in a CrockPot?
> >
> > Actually, I used the same temperature probe and controller I built for
> > doing sous vide. It's good to about 2 degrees F.
>
> A crock pot is not a sous vide device (unless you're Kent).

It is after I get done adding a precision temperature controller to it
8^}

> That was just way too low and/or too short of cook time.

Good information. Actually, I'm thinking that the next time I make these
sandwiches, I'll start out by cooking the beef sous vide for, say, 24
hours at about 150 F,and then shredding it into the seasoned stock for a
final simmer. A little more trouble, but I might wind up with more
flavorful meat, because of all the stuff that wouldn't get boiled out of
it.

Isaac

In article > ,
"Pete C." > wrote:

> Sqwertz wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 31 May 2012 21:40:53 -0700, isw wrote:
> >
> > > I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> > > stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> > > shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> > > still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> > > hours.
> > >
> > > Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> > > hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> > > stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> > > shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> > > then into matchsticks.
> > >
> > > Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> > > the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> > > recipe?
> > >
> > > Isaac
> >
> > How are you measuring the temp in a CrockPot? I don't think I could
> > get as low as 155F in either of my CP's after an hour of warming up.
> > 185F is what I'm guessing (on low). Which is perfect for chuck, IMO.
> >
> > The beef may have been stressed and missed it's electric stimuli after
> > the bolt missed the brain. No two sides of beef are ever the same.
> >
> > Safeway?
> >
> > -sw
>
> I expect it need to get past the 190 point for long enough for the
> collagen to break down just like a brisket. Sounds like it simply didn't
> get hot enough and less of a time issue.

The collagen breakdown process is definitely both time and temperature
dependent. Lower and slower works fine and may produce a more flavorful
product (I did an excellent and very tender corned beef sous vide at 145
for 24 hours). Thinking about it, I believe a note I made when I did the
sandwiches previously was not correct, and the cooking temperature was
much higher than I believed it to be. That was before I had a decent
temperature controller for the crockpot; won't happen again.

Isaac

In article >,
Doug Freyburger > wrote:

> isw wrote:
> > "Pete C." > wrote:
> >
> >> I expect it need to get past the 190 point for long enough for the
> >> collagen to break down just like a brisket. Sounds like it simply didn't
> >> get hot enough and less of a time issue.
> >
> > I did my St. Patrick's day corned beef brisket at 145 F for 24 hours
> > sous vide; it was wonderful.
>
> Note that corned beef is already pickled so its connective tissue is
> already softened.
>
> > Next time I do Italian beef, I think I'll do the chuck that way and then
> > mix everything together.
>
> I'd take it higher to make sure the collagen is melted.

As I've said, longer and lower works too, but probably gives a moister
product.

> I'd also cook
> it with the spices not add them later.

You have to be careful with spices and sous vide; they can get stronger
than you might expect, but otherwise, a good idea.

Isaac

On Jun 1, 4:31*pm, Sqwertz > wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 09:49:40 -0700, isw wrote:

> > If all I could get was Safeway meat, I'd go vegetarian.
>
> I haven't had Safeway/Randall's beef since 2004. *They were selling
> some sort of odd bone-in chuck roasts for $1/lb. *2 days later it was
> green and rotten.

Nob Hill will sell short-dated choice Certified Angus as a "Manager's
Special." If I see a cut I like I will eat it or freeze it that day.
I've never had a problem with that approach -- but it's not Raunchy
Reserve.

On Jun 1, 6:12*pm, Earl > wrote:
> isw wrote:
> > I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
> > stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
> > shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
> > still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
> > hours.
>
> > Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
> > hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
> > stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
> > shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
> > then into matchsticks.
>
> > Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
> > the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
> > recipe?
>
> > * Isaac
>
> Lou would be all over this one!

I miss him already.

One of the few gentlemen to post on rfc.

spamtrap1888 wrote:
> On Jun 1, 6:12 pm, > wrote:
>> isw wrote:
>>> I put a 2 1/2 lb. chuck roast and some onions, along with a few cups of
>>> stock I'd made from beef bones overnight, in a crockpot mid-morning,
>>> shooting for sandwiches at dinner. After 4 hours at 155 F the beef was
>>> still very solid, so I upped the temperature to 175 and gave it 4 more
>>> hours.
>>> Still tough -- so much so that I couldn't tear the beef apart with my
>>> hands to strip off the membranes and so on. Even after I'd cut that
>>> stuff off, the meat was still way too tough to easily pull it into
>>> shreds. I finally had to use a knife to trim it, slice it thinly and
>>> then into matchsticks.
>>> Fortunately, the sandwiches turned out fine, but what is puzzling is why
>>> the beef didn't get even close to "falling apart" as described in the
>>> recipe?
>>> Isaac
>> Lou would be all over this one!
> I miss him already.
>
> One of the few gentlemen to post on rfc.
True...

In article >,
Sqwertz > wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 19:49:46 -0700, isw wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Sqwertz > wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 09:49:40 -0700, isw wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article >,
> >>> Sqwertz > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> How are you measuring the temp in a CrockPot?
> >>>
> >>> Actually, I used the same temperature probe and controller I built for
> >>> doing sous vide. It's good to about 2 degrees F.
> >>
> >> A crock pot is not a sous vide device (unless you're Kent).
> >
> > It is after I get done adding a precision temperature controller to it
> > 8^}
>
> Got me there. I knew that's what you were doing but I was of course
> implying that that _alone_ it's is not sous vide. That is sous vide
> ala Kent.

Not to brag, but I had built mine and had ben using it for a year (the
first, analog one, that is; I now have the 2nd generation digital one in
service) before he posted anything about his on r.f.c.

> > Good information. Actually, I'm thinking that the next time I make these
> > sandwiches, I'll start out by cooking the beef sous vide for, say, 24
> > hours at about 150 F,and then shredding it into the seasoned stock for a
> > final simmer. A little more trouble, but I might wind up with more
> > flavorful meat, because of all the stuff that wouldn't get boiled out of
> > it.
>
> Its fairly easy to cook a wet-style pot roast until it's so dry you
> can't even swallow it. My mom thought the longer you cook beef and
> chicken in a braise/crock pot, then the moister and more tender it
> gets. I would "rescue" my dinner out 2-3 hours earlier than she felt
> it was "done" and then she would wonder why it's so dry and stringy.
>
> I assume that came from too high of a heat, so sous vide would seem be
> a step in the opposite direction (more tender and juicy).

It's known that meat fibers contract at cooking temperatures, and that
"wrings out" the juices. Lower for longer tends to minimize that.

Isaac

In article >,
Jim Elbrecht > wrote:

> Hmm-- just read their technique. 10lb roast. 8hrs at 250. Tent
> for 15min- to 2 hrs. Return to a 500F oven for about 20 minutes.
> http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2...sted-pork-shou
> lder-recipe.html
>
>
> I might try this- I'm liable to use my barrel grill for the 8hrs at
> 250.
>
> One of the comments asks about internal temp and they answer-
> "because the breakdown of collagen is a function of both temperature
> and time, there is no final temperature you are looking for. The meat
> needs to get to at least 160°, then stay above that temperature until
> it is tender. If you hold it at just 160°, this can take many many
> hours. If it gets up to say, 180°F, it'll take just a few. You can
> monitor with a thermometer if you'd like, but the only way you'll tell
> if it's done is by actually probing it and checking."
>
> What do you think?

I've been following Kenji's Food Lab for a while; I think he knows what
he's talking about. It was after reading some of his posts that I began
to think there was a lot of similarity between sous vide, long, slow,
oven roasting in a covered container, and slow-cooker methods.

Isaac