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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

{
Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
conclusions.

The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
the margins of the world.

The Primal Diet = The Inuit (Eskimo) Diet

The Inuit people of the Arctic regions of Canada, Russia, and Alaska
have lived for centuries on a diet predominately made up of animal
foods, with 75 percent of their calories coming from fat.

Primal Diet Raw MeatThey didn't have much choice. Aside from a few
berries, seaweed, tubers and whatever other greenery they could gather
in their home's short summer, they were left with only animals to
hunt.

Prior to the large-scale introduction of processed junk food from
developed countries, they were known for maintaining trim bodies
despite all of their meat intake.

Since western food started arriving within the last 80 years, many of
them have become overweight and developed overt diseases like
diabetes, which Primal Diet followers point to as an indication of
where our society is going wrong.

Plenty of meat is fine, they say, it's the processed, cooked food you
have to watch out for.

Because of this and the example of other meat-centric tribes, primal
diet eaters believe the best foods are fatty meats, organ meats,
dairy, honey, minimal fruit and vegetables, and coconut, all served
raw.

There are some variations of the diet that permit more carbohydrates,
but most of the food come from animal sources.

Pre-Western-Diet Eskimos Aged Early and Died Young

Unfortunately, claims about the great health of Eskimos prior to the
addition of processed foods are overstated. They are not the paragons
of health meat-centric dieters want them to be.

Primal Diet EskimosIn his book, "Health Conditions and Disease
Incidence Among The Eskimos of Labrador," Dr. Samel Hutton reported on
the Inuit before the addition of western foods.

He studied them personally from 1902 to 1913, and had access to the
detailed birth and death records kept by missionaries from the
previous century.

Hutton said: "Old age sets in at fifty and its signs are strongly
marked at sixty. In the years beyond sixty the Eskimo is aged and
feeble. Comparatively few live beyond sixty and only a very few reach
seventy. Those who live to such an age have spent a life of great
activity, feeding on Eskimo foods and engaging in characteristically
Eskimo pursuits."

The more you study Eskimo culture, the more you realize it was never
free from disease, and, in fact, people of the culture suffered from a
number of disorders we associate with meat-centric diets today.

The Eskimos were very familiar with constipation due to their low-
fiber diet, and they created the spirit Matshishkapeu, the most
powerful spirit in their mythology, to embody it. The spirit's name
literally translates into "Fart Man." In Inuit stories, he is known to
inflict painful cases of constipation upon people and other gods (7).

Read why meat causes flatulence and constipation.

It's hard to make concerete statements about the health of the
prewestern food Eskimos because there is not all that much data on
them. Most hunter gatherer tribes have little data available on them
from before the 1970s, which makes the insistence of primal diet
followers that Inuit were originally healthy so hard to verify. No one
has found any great evidence pointing to their good health.

Modern day Inuit still eat tons of meat, though, and it's taking a
toll.

For instance, in 1976, before the worst of the processed food crisis
hit them, they consumed 2,000 mg of calcium a day from all the soft-
bone fish they ate, a huge amount. All the same, they had (and still
have) the highest hip-fracture rate in the world becuase they consume
so much animal protein from fish (19).

Fruits and vegetables are extremely rich in potassium, magnesium, and
calcium, along with other minerals needed for strong bones, but
because they are alkaline and not acid like animal protein, they do
not strip the bones of calcium to neutralize the acid (20-21).

Most green vegetables have calcium absoption rates over 50 percent vs
32 percent for milk (22), but because animal food causes the body to
excrete calcium in its urine, the difference is even greater.

The more animal protein you eat, the weaker your bones become.


Hint For The Primal Diet: You're Looking At The Wrong Tribes

Unfortunately, over the last 10,000 years farming civilizations have
seized most of the land previously inhabited by hunter gatherers in
the equatorial and subtropical regions of the world, where our species
had its start.

If they were still extant, these would be the people we would do well
to study. The Eskimos and other hunter gatherers remaining generally
inhabit arctic, subarctic, and desert lands that are not useful for
agriculture. The poor quality of their land ensured they were not
destroyed, but it also ensured the diet they ate had to be at least
supplemented by animal foods, if not predominatly made of it.

Primal Diet YamaroExcept in far northern regions, scientific consensus
has shifted in the last few decades from the assumption that hunting
provides the main source of food for hunter gatherers to today's view
that hunting was merely supplementary (1).

In fact, there is no indication of the use of animal foods until the
relatively recent appearance of anatomically modern humans (2). How
long has the species been hunting? Only within the last 100,000 years,
according to one estimate (3), and less than 200,000 according to
another (4).

Fossil teeth belonging to human ancestors found in eastern Africa
suggest a fruit-based diet, and stone tools at a a 1.5 million-year-
old site in Kenya were used to process plant materials, not meat (5).

Among the !Kung of the mid 1900s, who lived in the desert and
supplemented their plant diet with a fair amount of meat (roughly 30
percent of volume), people lived much longer than the average Eskimo.
In one study of the !Kung carried out before the large-scale
introduction of western foods, out of 466 !Kung, 46 (17 men and 29
women) were over the age 60, a percentage that compares favorably to
that of elderly populations in industrialized societies. The elderly
among the !Kung were noted for their continued vigor till close to
their death, unlike the Inuit, who are considered near decrepit at 50
(6).

A Better Example For A Primal Diet

Several extant hunter gather cultures provide better examples of a
healthy primal diet diet than the Inuit.

The Yanomamö of the Amazon rain forest have been significantly changed
by contact with civilization, but the first anthropologists to visit
them there in the 1960s found a group of hunter gatherers who ate an
almost entirely vegetarian diet composed mostly of raw and cooked
fruit, vegetables, cooked tubers, and a small amount of animal food
(8).

Their great health and longevity impressed scientists, who have made
numerous studies of them. Their freedom from cardiovascular disease
and low blood pressure are especially noted (9).

Another group called the Trobriander, who live on Kitava, one of the
Trobriand Islands in Papua New Guinea's archipelago, is of interest.
They may be one of the last groups in the world eating pretty much the
same diet their ancestors ate thousands of years ago.

Primal Diet PapayaThe residents of Kitava live on root vegetables
(yam, sweet potato, taro), raw fruits (banana, papaya, pineapple,
coconut mango, guava, watermelon), many types of leafy green
vegetables, and small amounts of fish (10-12). Less than 0.2% of
their caloric intake comes from Western food, such as dairy, sugar,
grains, and alchohol (13). Their total fat intake averages 20 percent
of calories consumed, which is quite low compared to fat intake among
industrialized societies or the 75-percent-fat diet of the Inuit (11).

It's hard to figure out exactly how long the residents live. Their
island is infested with malarial mosquitoes that infect many of the
populace, and the lack of adequate medical care means they have a very
high infant mortality rate.

Still, during one recent study, out of 2,300 inhabitants of the
island, 6 percent (138 people) ranged in age from 60 to 95. (14, 15).
The 95-year-old woman was in complete possessions of all her mental
faculties and reasonably physically active.

Inhabitants told researchers no one had ever died from a heart attack
or stroke, or even had exertion-related chest pains. Other than
falling out of coconut trees, drowning, rare homicides, and various
other accidents, they could not recall any cases of sudden death so
common in the Western countries.

None of the elderly residents exhibited dementia or poor memory.


So Where Does The Primal Diet Go Wrong?

The primal diet and paleo diet have several flaws, the most prominent
being its low intake of carbohydrates from nutrient-rich fruits and
vegetables, high intake of animal foods, and, consequently, high fat
intake.

The Primal Diet and Animal Foods
It's possible very low intakes of animal protein will not impair
health or cause disease, but there's a fair amount of evidence showing
the more meat you eat, the more disease prone you are.

Although primal diet eaters may scoff at studies of modern humans
because their diets are otherwise horrible, there are hundreds of
studies correlating increased meat intake with increased disease.

Even when animal protein intake is extremely low (the equivalent of
three chicken nuggets a day), a person's risk of cancer, heart
disease, a host of other diseases, and early death is considerably
higher than when a person eats less meat (16).

One study of Seventh Day Adventists who follow vegetarian diets found
men living an average of 83.3 years and women 85.7 years. That's 9.5
and 6.1 years longer than the average Californian lives, respectively.
Even those Adventists who ate meat just once a week lived shorter
lives than those who ate it once a month (17).

Another studied the meat intake of half a million Americans and found
the prevalence of cardiovascular diseases and cancer decreased with
declining meat consumption while age at death increased (18).


The Primal Diet And Meat-Friendly Evolution
Primal diet and Paleo diet supporters claim that even if humans were
originally fruivores, the species has evolved to eat meat and our body
has adapted to the strains of doing so.

We have indeed adapted to meat. One study suggests that up to eight
genes in humans allow for greater protection from meat consumption. We
suffer less damage from meat eating than we would otherwise because of
this adaptation, but this is far from suggesting it's beneficial for
humans to eat meat (23).

An adaptation does not mean that it will not harm us, but merely that
it will harm us less.

We have also started producing roughly 6 times more of the starch-
digestive enzymes known as amalyze compared to our chimp ancestors
because for centuries we've tried to choke down tubers and grains
(24).

All the same, we still have a great deal less amalyze production
capability than true starch eaters like pigs, and starch digestion is
still poor compared to our fruit digestive abilities.

All the more compelling is the unmistakable fact that despite any
adaptation, meat kills us.

A basic medical text will tell you that you can cause atherclerosis in
humans, monkeys and rabits -vegetarian species - by adding
cholesterol, which is only found in animal foods. However, natural
carnivore species like dogs and cats are completely resistant (25).

The primal diet can't argue with death by clogged arteries. In fact, I
think that's really the nail in the coffin of the primal diet.

Perhaps William C. Roberts MD, author of 1300 scientific publications,
numerous cardiology textbooks, and editor of the American Journal of
Cardiology for a quarter of a century said it best.

In his 2008 editorial, "The Cause of Atherosclerosis," published in
the journal Nutrition in Clinical Practice, Roberts says that,
"Atherosclerosis is easily produced in nonhuman herbivores (eg,
rabbits, monkeys) by feeding them
a high cholesterol (eg, egg yolks) or high saturated
fat (eg, animal fat) diet… And atherosclerosis was not produced in a
minority of rats fed these diets, it was produced in
100% of the animals! Indeed, atherosclerosis is one
of the easiest diseases to produce experimentally,
but the experimental animal must be an herbivore.
It is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in a
carnivore…"

In other words, any creature that can get atherosclerosis is meant to
eat plants. Any animal who cannot is meant to eat animal protein.

Humans are clearly meant to be plant eaters, and eating a primal diet
will destroy us.

The Primal Diet: Lack of Fruits and Vegetables
Primal Diet Grapes

Even though raw fruits and vegetables play a role in the paleo diet,
because of the high intake of meat, there isn't much room for them.

This is a huge mistake for anyone interested in longevity and health,
as fruits and vegetables keep us young and vibrant.

Learn more about the huge role fruits and vegetables play in our
health and longevity here.

The Primal Diet: Too Much Fat

Paleo diets contain way too much fat. The oft-idealized Eskimos get an
unbelievable 75 percent of their calories from fat, and this has
consequences.

Read why high-fat diets are harmful here.

The Primal Diet: Not Enough Carbohydrates
I've yet to meet a Primal diet or Paleo Diet practitioner who managed
to stay on their diet 100 percent for more than a year.

Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.

The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
perpetual state of craving.

Find out how you can get satisfied on your diet by controlling
cravings with your mind and diet.


The Primal Diet: Following Up

It just doesn't make sense to think of our ancestors as eating meat-
centric diets, nor the pre-contact Inuit as particularly healthy.

It would be a far better idea to base a primal diet off of fruit-and-
vegetable-centered hunter gatherers like the Yanomamö or Trobriander,
who have much better health than the Eskimos.

Better yet, anyone would do better fueling themselves with a healthy
raw food diet made up entirely of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and
seeds. Find out how this amazing lifestyle compares to the primal diet
here.
}
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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 6, 9:20*am, A Moose in Love > wrote:
> http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html



A raw foodist dissing any other approach to eating. Typical.

How about we find what works for us as individuals and to hell with
what anyone else's agenda spouts??

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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 6, 12:52*pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
> OnNov 6, 9:20*am, A Moose > wrote:
>
> >http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>
> A raw foodist dissing any other approach to eating. * Typical.
>
> How about we find what works for us as individuals and to hell withwhat anyone else's agenda spouts??


That's a good idea. I find the the people supporting the above raw
food diet eat far too many fruits. Bad news for a diabetic, although
they blame diabetes on fats; i.e. fats trap sugars in the blood.
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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

>*I find the the people supporting the above raw
> food diet eat far too many fruits. *Bad news for a diabetic, although
> they blame diabetes on fats; i.e. fats trap sugars in the blood.


Yesterday I had 3 cantaloupes, 1/2 honeydew and 6 bananas. According
to fitday, I had 1,511 calories, 90% carbs, 6% protein, 4% fat (1%
PUFA). How long before I develop diabetes?
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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 6, 2:37*pm, jay > wrote:
> >*I find the the people supporting the above raw> food diet eat far too many fruits. *Badnews for a diabetic, although> they blame diabetes onfats; i.e. fats trap sugars inthe blood.

>
> Yesterday I had 3 cantaloupes, 1/2 honeydew and 6 bananas. Accordingto fitday, I had 1,511 calories, 90% carbs, 6% protein, 4% fat (1%PUFA). How long before I develop diabetes?


? I don't know. I just know that whenever I eat a fruit such as an
apple or orange, my blood sugar spikes. Melon does the same thing,
although bananas aren't bad.


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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

A Moose in Love wrote:
> http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html
>
> {
> Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
> questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
> conclusions.
>
> The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
> diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
> correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
> are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
> diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
> occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
> the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.
>
> Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
> should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
> returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
> they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
> the margins of the world.
>
> The Primal Diet = The Inuit (Eskimo) Diet
>
> The Inuit people of the Arctic regions of Canada, Russia, and Alaska
> have lived for centuries on a diet predominately made up of animal
> foods, with 75 percent of their calories coming from fat.
>
> Primal Diet Raw MeatThey didn't have much choice. Aside from a few
> berries, seaweed, tubers and whatever other greenery they could gather
> in their home's short summer, they were left with only animals to
> hunt.
>
> Prior to the large-scale introduction of processed junk food from
> developed countries, they were known for maintaining trim bodies
> despite all of their meat intake.
>
> Since western food started arriving within the last 80 years, many of
> them have become overweight and developed overt diseases like
> diabetes, which Primal Diet followers point to as an indication of
> where our society is going wrong.
>
> Plenty of meat is fine, they say, it's the processed, cooked food you
> have to watch out for.
>
> Because of this and the example of other meat-centric tribes, primal
> diet eaters believe the best foods are fatty meats, organ meats,
> dairy, honey, minimal fruit and vegetables, and coconut, all served
> raw.
>
> There are some variations of the diet that permit more carbohydrates,
> but most of the food come from animal sources.
>
> Pre-Western-Diet Eskimos Aged Early and Died Young
>
> Unfortunately, claims about the great health of Eskimos prior to the
> addition of processed foods are overstated. They are not the paragons
> of health meat-centric dieters want them to be.
>
> Primal Diet EskimosIn his book, "Health Conditions and Disease
> Incidence Among The Eskimos of Labrador," Dr. Samel Hutton reported on
> the Inuit before the addition of western foods.
>
> He studied them personally from 1902 to 1913, and had access to the
> detailed birth and death records kept by missionaries from the
> previous century.
>
> Hutton said: "Old age sets in at fifty and its signs are strongly
> marked at sixty. In the years beyond sixty the Eskimo is aged and
> feeble. Comparatively few live beyond sixty and only a very few reach
> seventy. Those who live to such an age have spent a life of great
> activity, feeding on Eskimo foods and engaging in characteristically
> Eskimo pursuits."
>
> The more you study Eskimo culture, the more you realize it was never
> free from disease, and, in fact, people of the culture suffered from a
> number of disorders we associate with meat-centric diets today.
>
> The Eskimos were very familiar with constipation due to their low-
> fiber diet, and they created the spirit Matshishkapeu, the most
> powerful spirit in their mythology, to embody it. The spirit's name
> literally translates into "Fart Man." In Inuit stories, he is known to
> inflict painful cases of constipation upon people and other gods (7).
>
> Read why meat causes flatulence and constipation.
>
> It's hard to make concerete statements about the health of the
> prewestern food Eskimos because there is not all that much data on
> them. Most hunter gatherer tribes have little data available on them
> from before the 1970s, which makes the insistence of primal diet
> followers that Inuit were originally healthy so hard to verify. No one
> has found any great evidence pointing to their good health.
>
> Modern day Inuit still eat tons of meat, though, and it's taking a
> toll.
>
> For instance, in 1976, before the worst of the processed food crisis
> hit them, they consumed 2,000 mg of calcium a day from all the soft-
> bone fish they ate, a huge amount. All the same, they had (and still
> have) the highest hip-fracture rate in the world becuase they consume
> so much animal protein from fish (19).
>
> Fruits and vegetables are extremely rich in potassium, magnesium, and
> calcium, along with other minerals needed for strong bones, but
> because they are alkaline and not acid like animal protein, they do
> not strip the bones of calcium to neutralize the acid (20-21).
>
> Most green vegetables have calcium absoption rates over 50 percent vs
> 32 percent for milk (22), but because animal food causes the body to
> excrete calcium in its urine, the difference is even greater.
>
> The more animal protein you eat, the weaker your bones become.
>
>
> Hint For The Primal Diet: You're Looking At The Wrong Tribes
>
> Unfortunately, over the last 10,000 years farming civilizations have
> seized most of the land previously inhabited by hunter gatherers in
> the equatorial and subtropical regions of the world, where our species
> had its start.
>
> If they were still extant, these would be the people we would do well
> to study. The Eskimos and other hunter gatherers remaining generally
> inhabit arctic, subarctic, and desert lands that are not useful for
> agriculture. The poor quality of their land ensured they were not
> destroyed, but it also ensured the diet they ate had to be at least
> supplemented by animal foods, if not predominatly made of it.
>
> Primal Diet YamaroExcept in far northern regions, scientific consensus
> has shifted in the last few decades from the assumption that hunting
> provides the main source of food for hunter gatherers to today's view
> that hunting was merely supplementary (1).
>
> In fact, there is no indication of the use of animal foods until the
> relatively recent appearance of anatomically modern humans (2). How
> long has the species been hunting? Only within the last 100,000 years,
> according to one estimate (3), and less than 200,000 according to
> another (4).
>
> Fossil teeth belonging to human ancestors found in eastern Africa
> suggest a fruit-based diet, and stone tools at a a 1.5 million-year-
> old site in Kenya were used to process plant materials, not meat (5).
>
> Among the !Kung of the mid 1900s, who lived in the desert and
> supplemented their plant diet with a fair amount of meat (roughly 30
> percent of volume), people lived much longer than the average Eskimo.
> In one study of the !Kung carried out before the large-scale
> introduction of western foods, out of 466 !Kung, 46 (17 men and 29
> women) were over the age 60, a percentage that compares favorably to
> that of elderly populations in industrialized societies. The elderly
> among the !Kung were noted for their continued vigor till close to
> their death, unlike the Inuit, who are considered near decrepit at 50
> (6).
>
> A Better Example For A Primal Diet
>
> Several extant hunter gather cultures provide better examples of a
> healthy primal diet diet than the Inuit.
>
> The Yanomamö of the Amazon rain forest have been significantly changed
> by contact with civilization, but the first anthropologists to visit
> them there in the 1960s found a group of hunter gatherers who ate an
> almost entirely vegetarian diet composed mostly of raw and cooked
> fruit, vegetables, cooked tubers, and a small amount of animal food
> (8).
>
> Their great health and longevity impressed scientists, who have made
> numerous studies of them. Their freedom from cardiovascular disease
> and low blood pressure are especially noted (9).
>
> Another group called the Trobriander, who live on Kitava, one of the
> Trobriand Islands in Papua New Guinea's archipelago, is of interest.
> They may be one of the last groups in the world eating pretty much the
> same diet their ancestors ate thousands of years ago.
>
> Primal Diet PapayaThe residents of Kitava live on root vegetables
> (yam, sweet potato, taro), raw fruits (banana, papaya, pineapple,
> coconut mango, guava, watermelon), many types of leafy green
> vegetables, and small amounts of fish (10-12). Less than 0.2% of
> their caloric intake comes from Western food, such as dairy, sugar,
> grains, and alchohol (13). Their total fat intake averages 20 percent
> of calories consumed, which is quite low compared to fat intake among
> industrialized societies or the 75-percent-fat diet of the Inuit (11).
>
> It's hard to figure out exactly how long the residents live. Their
> island is infested with malarial mosquitoes that infect many of the
> populace, and the lack of adequate medical care means they have a very
> high infant mortality rate.
>
> Still, during one recent study, out of 2,300 inhabitants of the
> island, 6 percent (138 people) ranged in age from 60 to 95. (14, 15).
> The 95-year-old woman was in complete possessions of all her mental
> faculties and reasonably physically active.
>
> Inhabitants told researchers no one had ever died from a heart attack
> or stroke, or even had exertion-related chest pains. Other than
> falling out of coconut trees, drowning, rare homicides, and various
> other accidents, they could not recall any cases of sudden death so
> common in the Western countries.
>
> None of the elderly residents exhibited dementia or poor memory.
>
>
> So Where Does The Primal Diet Go Wrong?
>
> The primal diet and paleo diet have several flaws, the most prominent
> being its low intake of carbohydrates from nutrient-rich fruits and
> vegetables, high intake of animal foods, and, consequently, high fat
> intake.
>
> The Primal Diet and Animal Foods
> It's possible very low intakes of animal protein will not impair
> health or cause disease, but there's a fair amount of evidence showing
> the more meat you eat, the more disease prone you are.
>
> Although primal diet eaters may scoff at studies of modern humans
> because their diets are otherwise horrible, there are hundreds of
> studies correlating increased meat intake with increased disease.
>
> Even when animal protein intake is extremely low (the equivalent of
> three chicken nuggets a day), a person's risk of cancer, heart
> disease, a host of other diseases, and early death is considerably
> higher than when a person eats less meat (16).
>
> One study of Seventh Day Adventists who follow vegetarian diets found
> men living an average of 83.3 years and women 85.7 years. That's 9.5
> and 6.1 years longer than the average Californian lives, respectively.
> Even those Adventists who ate meat just once a week lived shorter
> lives than those who ate it once a month (17).
>
> Another studied the meat intake of half a million Americans and found
> the prevalence of cardiovascular diseases and cancer decreased with
> declining meat consumption while age at death increased (18).
>
>
> The Primal Diet And Meat-Friendly Evolution
> Primal diet and Paleo diet supporters claim that even if humans were
> originally fruivores, the species has evolved to eat meat and our body
> has adapted to the strains of doing so.
>
> We have indeed adapted to meat. One study suggests that up to eight
> genes in humans allow for greater protection from meat consumption. We
> suffer less damage from meat eating than we would otherwise because of
> this adaptation, but this is far from suggesting it's beneficial for
> humans to eat meat (23).
>
> An adaptation does not mean that it will not harm us, but merely that
> it will harm us less.
>
> We have also started producing roughly 6 times more of the starch-
> digestive enzymes known as amalyze compared to our chimp ancestors
> because for centuries we've tried to choke down tubers and grains
> (24).
>
> All the same, we still have a great deal less amalyze production
> capability than true starch eaters like pigs, and starch digestion is
> still poor compared to our fruit digestive abilities.
>
> All the more compelling is the unmistakable fact that despite any
> adaptation, meat kills us.
>
> A basic medical text will tell you that you can cause atherclerosis in
> humans, monkeys and rabits -vegetarian species - by adding
> cholesterol, which is only found in animal foods. However, natural
> carnivore species like dogs and cats are completely resistant (25).
>
> The primal diet can't argue with death by clogged arteries. In fact, I
> think that's really the nail in the coffin of the primal diet.
>
> Perhaps William C. Roberts MD, author of 1300 scientific publications,
> numerous cardiology textbooks, and editor of the American Journal of
> Cardiology for a quarter of a century said it best.
>
> In his 2008 editorial, "The Cause of Atherosclerosis," published in
> the journal Nutrition in Clinical Practice, Roberts says that,
> "Atherosclerosis is easily produced in nonhuman herbivores (eg,
> rabbits, monkeys) by feeding them
> a high cholesterol (eg, egg yolks) or high saturated
> fat (eg, animal fat) diet… And atherosclerosis was not produced in a
> minority of rats fed these diets, it was produced in
> 100% of the animals! Indeed, atherosclerosis is one
> of the easiest diseases to produce experimentally,
> but the experimental animal must be an herbivore.
> It is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in a
> carnivore…"
>
> In other words, any creature that can get atherosclerosis is meant to
> eat plants. Any animal who cannot is meant to eat animal protein.
>
> Humans are clearly meant to be plant eaters, and eating a primal diet
> will destroy us.
>
> The Primal Diet: Lack of Fruits and Vegetables
> Primal Diet Grapes
>
> Even though raw fruits and vegetables play a role in the paleo diet,
> because of the high intake of meat, there isn't much room for them.
>
> This is a huge mistake for anyone interested in longevity and health,
> as fruits and vegetables keep us young and vibrant.
>
> Learn more about the huge role fruits and vegetables play in our
> health and longevity here.
>
> The Primal Diet: Too Much Fat
>
> Paleo diets contain way too much fat. The oft-idealized Eskimos get an
> unbelievable 75 percent of their calories from fat, and this has
> consequences.
>
> Read why high-fat diets are harmful here.
>
> The Primal Diet: Not Enough Carbohydrates
> I've yet to meet a Primal diet or Paleo Diet practitioner who managed
> to stay on their diet 100 percent for more than a year.
>
> Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
> most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.
>
> The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
> need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
> the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
> perpetual state of craving.
>
> Find out how you can get satisfied on your diet by controlling
> cravings with your mind and diet.
>
>
> The Primal Diet: Following Up
>
> It just doesn't make sense to think of our ancestors as eating meat-
> centric diets, nor the pre-contact Inuit as particularly healthy.
>
> It would be a far better idea to base a primal diet off of fruit-and-
> vegetable-centered hunter gatherers like the Yanomamö or Trobriander,
> who have much better health than the Eskimos.
>
> Better yet, anyone would do better fueling themselves with a healthy
> raw food diet made up entirely of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and
> seeds. Find out how this amazing lifestyle compares to the primal diet
> here.
> }


I did do the raw vegan diet. Although I did like the diet it didn't work
for me because of the gastroparesis. There is just far too much fiber on
that diet for me. Made me very ill.


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A Moose in Love wrote:
> On Nov 6, 12:52 pm, ImStillMags > wrote:
>> OnNov 6, 9:20 am, A Moose > wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>>
>> A raw foodist dissing any other approach to eating. Typical.
>>
>> How about we find what works for us as individuals and to hell
>> withwhat anyone else's agenda spouts??

>
> That's a good idea. I find the the people supporting the above raw
> food diet eat far too many fruits. Bad news for a diabetic, although
> they blame diabetes on fats; i.e. fats trap sugars in the blood.


Not only that but the raw vegans I know claim such a diet can cure diabetes.
Some said to be cured themselves. And of course when they were cured they
stopped testing or going to the Dr. Many of them are anti Dr.

I did not eat a lot of fruit as a raw vegan. I did use dates in a brownie
which I made once. I used dates and water as a sweetener for a nut mix. I
used agave nectar in some recipes but do not like things sweet foods so used
very little.

I never had a smoothie at all. No juice. I ate vegetables, sprouts, chia
seeds, other nuts and seeds and nut cheese.

This diet was lower in carbs than what I am eating now but it didn't work
for me at all in terms of BG. However I do seem to be atypical in that
regard. If I do not eat enough carbs, my BG rises. And that wasn't enough
carbs for me. I guess most people love fruit. I do not. In fact I don't
really even like it.


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jay wrote:
>> I find the the people supporting the above raw
>> food diet eat far too many fruits. Bad news for a diabetic, although
>> they blame diabetes on fats; i.e. fats trap sugars in the blood.

>
> Yesterday I had 3 cantaloupes, 1/2 honeydew and 6 bananas. According
> to fitday, I had 1,511 calories, 90% carbs, 6% protein, 4% fat (1%
> PUFA). How long before I develop diabetes?


Huh? Fruit doesn't cause diabetes. Neither do carbs. *sheesh*


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On Nov 6, 11:45*am, A Moose in Love >
wrote:
> On Nov 6, 2:37*pm, jay > wrote:
>
> > >*I find the the people supporting the above raw> food diet eat far too many fruits. *Badnews for a diabetic, although> they blame diabetes onfats; i.e. fats trap sugars inthe blood.

>
> > Yesterday I had 3 cantaloupes, 1/2 honeydew and 6 bananas. Accordingto fitday, I had 1,511 calories, 90% carbs, 6% protein, 4% fat (1%PUFA). How long before I develop diabetes?

>
> ? *I don't know. *I just know that whenever I eat a fruit such as an
> apple or orange, my blood sugar spikes. *Melon does the same thing,
> although bananas aren't bad.


Moose.....thus my comment about finding what works for you.
Obviously fruit is fine for Jay.
Low carb works for me. We all must find what way of eating brings us
the most health and happiness.

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i simply do not understand why this concept is so beyond most people, you
want/need to be vegan good, you need no carbs good, you eat three balanced
and lower calorie good on you too... but unless i ask don't push your food
agenda on me...

Lee
"ImStillMags" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 6, 9:20 am, A Moose in Love > wrote:
> http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html



A raw foodist dissing any other approach to eating. Typical.

How about we find what works for us as individuals and to hell with
what anyone else's agenda spouts??




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exactly and well put, Lee
"ImStillMags" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 6, 11:45 am, A Moose in Love >
wrote:
> On Nov 6, 2:37 pm, jay > wrote:
>
> > > I find the the people supporting the above raw> food diet eat far too
> > > many fruits. Badnews for a diabetic, although> they blame diabetes
> > > onfats; i.e. fats trap sugars inthe blood.

>
> > Yesterday I had 3 cantaloupes, 1/2 honeydew and 6 bananas. Accordingto
> > fitday, I had 1,511 calories, 90% carbs, 6% protein, 4% fat (1%PUFA).
> > How long before I develop diabetes?

>
> ? I don't know. I just know that whenever I eat a fruit such as an
> apple or orange, my blood sugar spikes. Melon does the same thing,
> although bananas aren't bad.


Moose.....thus my comment about finding what works for you.
Obviously fruit is fine for Jay.
Low carb works for me. We all must find what way of eating brings us
the most health and happiness.


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"Storrmmee" > wrote in message
...
>i simply do not understand why this concept is so beyond most people, you
>want/need to be vegan good, you need no carbs good, you eat three balanced
>and lower calorie good on you too... but unless i ask don't push your food
>agenda on me...
>
> Lee


Agreed. But there are a ton of people out here who think... If I can do
it, you can do it.


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that or they want me to sfuffer like they are, Lee
"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Storrmmee" > wrote in message
> ...
>>i simply do not understand why this concept is so beyond most people, you
>>want/need to be vegan good, you need no carbs good, you eat three balanced
>>and lower calorie good on you too... but unless i ask don't push your food
>>agenda on me...
>>
>> Lee

>
> Agreed. But there are a ton of people out here who think... If I can do
> it, you can do it.
>



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Storrmmee wrote:
> that or they want me to sfuffer like they are, Lee


Ohhhhhhhh... That could be too! I don't know too many low carbers in real
life but the ones I do know are always whining about how hard it is to stick
to the diet. They will brag about their weight loss but then it is always
followed by a complaint.


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and that really is sad, instead of being happy for someone else finding
their way and finding out why it worked for them, we seem as a specieces to
want everyone to eat like we are, sorry not for me, Lee
"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
> Storrmmee wrote:
>> that or they want me to sfuffer like they are, Lee

>
> Ohhhhhhhh... That could be too! I don't know too many low carbers in
> real life but the ones I do know are always whining about how hard it is
> to stick to the diet. They will brag about their weight loss but then it
> is always followed by a complaint.
>





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On Nov 6, 8:55*pm, "Julie Bove" > wrote:
> "Storrmmee" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >i simply do not understand why this concept is so beyond most people, you
> >want/need to be vegan good, you need no carbs good, you eat three balanced
> >and lower calorie good on you too... but unless i ask don't push your food
> >agenda on me...

>
> > Lee

>
> Agreed. *But there are a ton of people out here who think... *If I can do
> it, you can do it.


Unfortunately "if i can do it, you can do it" often comes across like
"I'm doing it so you should too". The same happens in politics, too.

I think it is fine if people want to eat raw, eat vegan, eat
vegetarian or whatever. I won't stop them. But as for myself, I
know enough about sugars, proteins, cellular metabolism and all that
rot to know that I don't want to do what they are doing.

p.s., our jaw muscles, teeth and general mouth structures are not well
adapted to eat raw meat.

(back to my corner)

-J
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phaeton wrote:
> On Nov 6, 8:55 pm, "Julie Bove" > wrote:
>> "Storrmmee" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> i simply do not understand why this concept is so beyond most
>>> people, you want/need to be vegan good, you need no carbs good, you
>>> eat three balanced and lower calorie good on you too... but unless
>>> i ask don't push your food agenda on me...

>>
>>> Lee

>>
>> Agreed. But there are a ton of people out here who think... If I can
>> do it, you can do it.

>
> Unfortunately "if i can do it, you can do it" often comes across like
> "I'm doing it so you should too". The same happens in politics, too.
>
> I think it is fine if people want to eat raw, eat vegan, eat
> vegetarian or whatever. I won't stop them. But as for myself, I
> know enough about sugars, proteins, cellular metabolism and all that
> rot to know that I don't want to do what they are doing.
>
> p.s., our jaw muscles, teeth and general mouth structures are not well
> adapted to eat raw meat.
>
> (back to my corner)


Ick.


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Interesting that neither the primal diet he criticizes nor the African diet
he recommends contain grains.

"A Moose in Love" > wrote in message
...
http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

{
Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
conclusions.

The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
the margins of the world.

The Primal Diet = The Inuit (Eskimo) Diet

The Inuit people of the Arctic regions of Canada, Russia, and Alaska
have lived for centuries on a diet predominately made up of animal
foods, with 75 percent of their calories coming from fat.

Primal Diet Raw MeatThey didn't have much choice. Aside from a few
berries, seaweed, tubers and whatever other greenery they could gather
in their home's short summer, they were left with only animals to
hunt.

Prior to the large-scale introduction of processed junk food from
developed countries, they were known for maintaining trim bodies
despite all of their meat intake.

Since western food started arriving within the last 80 years, many of
them have become overweight and developed overt diseases like
diabetes, which Primal Diet followers point to as an indication of
where our society is going wrong.

Plenty of meat is fine, they say, it's the processed, cooked food you
have to watch out for.

Because of this and the example of other meat-centric tribes, primal
diet eaters believe the best foods are fatty meats, organ meats,
dairy, honey, minimal fruit and vegetables, and coconut, all served
raw.

There are some variations of the diet that permit more carbohydrates,
but most of the food come from animal sources.

Pre-Western-Diet Eskimos Aged Early and Died Young

Unfortunately, claims about the great health of Eskimos prior to the
addition of processed foods are overstated. They are not the paragons
of health meat-centric dieters want them to be.

Primal Diet EskimosIn his book, "Health Conditions and Disease
Incidence Among The Eskimos of Labrador," Dr. Samel Hutton reported on
the Inuit before the addition of western foods.

He studied them personally from 1902 to 1913, and had access to the
detailed birth and death records kept by missionaries from the
previous century.

Hutton said: "Old age sets in at fifty and its signs are strongly
marked at sixty. In the years beyond sixty the Eskimo is aged and
feeble. Comparatively few live beyond sixty and only a very few reach
seventy. Those who live to such an age have spent a life of great
activity, feeding on Eskimo foods and engaging in characteristically
Eskimo pursuits."

The more you study Eskimo culture, the more you realize it was never
free from disease, and, in fact, people of the culture suffered from a
number of disorders we associate with meat-centric diets today.

The Eskimos were very familiar with constipation due to their low-
fiber diet, and they created the spirit Matshishkapeu, the most
powerful spirit in their mythology, to embody it. The spirit's name
literally translates into "Fart Man." In Inuit stories, he is known to
inflict painful cases of constipation upon people and other gods (7).

Read why meat causes flatulence and constipation.

It's hard to make concerete statements about the health of the
prewestern food Eskimos because there is not all that much data on
them. Most hunter gatherer tribes have little data available on them
from before the 1970s, which makes the insistence of primal diet
followers that Inuit were originally healthy so hard to verify. No one
has found any great evidence pointing to their good health.

Modern day Inuit still eat tons of meat, though, and it's taking a
toll.

For instance, in 1976, before the worst of the processed food crisis
hit them, they consumed 2,000 mg of calcium a day from all the soft-
bone fish they ate, a huge amount. All the same, they had (and still
have) the highest hip-fracture rate in the world becuase they consume
so much animal protein from fish (19).

Fruits and vegetables are extremely rich in potassium, magnesium, and
calcium, along with other minerals needed for strong bones, but
because they are alkaline and not acid like animal protein, they do
not strip the bones of calcium to neutralize the acid (20-21).

Most green vegetables have calcium absoption rates over 50 percent vs
32 percent for milk (22), but because animal food causes the body to
excrete calcium in its urine, the difference is even greater.

The more animal protein you eat, the weaker your bones become.


Hint For The Primal Diet: You're Looking At The Wrong Tribes

Unfortunately, over the last 10,000 years farming civilizations have
seized most of the land previously inhabited by hunter gatherers in
the equatorial and subtropical regions of the world, where our species
had its start.

If they were still extant, these would be the people we would do well
to study. The Eskimos and other hunter gatherers remaining generally
inhabit arctic, subarctic, and desert lands that are not useful for
agriculture. The poor quality of their land ensured they were not
destroyed, but it also ensured the diet they ate had to be at least
supplemented by animal foods, if not predominatly made of it.

Primal Diet YamaroExcept in far northern regions, scientific consensus
has shifted in the last few decades from the assumption that hunting
provides the main source of food for hunter gatherers to today's view
that hunting was merely supplementary (1).

In fact, there is no indication of the use of animal foods until the
relatively recent appearance of anatomically modern humans (2). How
long has the species been hunting? Only within the last 100,000 years,
according to one estimate (3), and less than 200,000 according to
another (4).

Fossil teeth belonging to human ancestors found in eastern Africa
suggest a fruit-based diet, and stone tools at a a 1.5 million-year-
old site in Kenya were used to process plant materials, not meat (5).

Among the !Kung of the mid 1900s, who lived in the desert and
supplemented their plant diet with a fair amount of meat (roughly 30
percent of volume), people lived much longer than the average Eskimo.
In one study of the !Kung carried out before the large-scale
introduction of western foods, out of 466 !Kung, 46 (17 men and 29
women) were over the age 60, a percentage that compares favorably to
that of elderly populations in industrialized societies. The elderly
among the !Kung were noted for their continued vigor till close to
their death, unlike the Inuit, who are considered near decrepit at 50
(6).

A Better Example For A Primal Diet

Several extant hunter gather cultures provide better examples of a
healthy primal diet diet than the Inuit.

The Yanomamö of the Amazon rain forest have been significantly changed
by contact with civilization, but the first anthropologists to visit
them there in the 1960s found a group of hunter gatherers who ate an
almost entirely vegetarian diet composed mostly of raw and cooked
fruit, vegetables, cooked tubers, and a small amount of animal food
(8).

Their great health and longevity impressed scientists, who have made
numerous studies of them. Their freedom from cardiovascular disease
and low blood pressure are especially noted (9).

Another group called the Trobriander, who live on Kitava, one of the
Trobriand Islands in Papua New Guinea's archipelago, is of interest.
They may be one of the last groups in the world eating pretty much the
same diet their ancestors ate thousands of years ago.

Primal Diet PapayaThe residents of Kitava live on root vegetables
(yam, sweet potato, taro), raw fruits (banana, papaya, pineapple,
coconut mango, guava, watermelon), many types of leafy green
vegetables, and small amounts of fish (10-12). Less than 0.2% of
their caloric intake comes from Western food, such as dairy, sugar,
grains, and alchohol (13). Their total fat intake averages 20 percent
of calories consumed, which is quite low compared to fat intake among
industrialized societies or the 75-percent-fat diet of the Inuit (11).

It's hard to figure out exactly how long the residents live. Their
island is infested with malarial mosquitoes that infect many of the
populace, and the lack of adequate medical care means they have a very
high infant mortality rate.

Still, during one recent study, out of 2,300 inhabitants of the
island, 6 percent (138 people) ranged in age from 60 to 95. (14, 15).
The 95-year-old woman was in complete possessions of all her mental
faculties and reasonably physically active.

Inhabitants told researchers no one had ever died from a heart attack
or stroke, or even had exertion-related chest pains. Other than
falling out of coconut trees, drowning, rare homicides, and various
other accidents, they could not recall any cases of sudden death so
common in the Western countries.

None of the elderly residents exhibited dementia or poor memory.


So Where Does The Primal Diet Go Wrong?

The primal diet and paleo diet have several flaws, the most prominent
being its low intake of carbohydrates from nutrient-rich fruits and
vegetables, high intake of animal foods, and, consequently, high fat
intake.

The Primal Diet and Animal Foods
It's possible very low intakes of animal protein will not impair
health or cause disease, but there's a fair amount of evidence showing
the more meat you eat, the more disease prone you are.

Although primal diet eaters may scoff at studies of modern humans
because their diets are otherwise horrible, there are hundreds of
studies correlating increased meat intake with increased disease.

Even when animal protein intake is extremely low (the equivalent of
three chicken nuggets a day), a person's risk of cancer, heart
disease, a host of other diseases, and early death is considerably
higher than when a person eats less meat (16).

One study of Seventh Day Adventists who follow vegetarian diets found
men living an average of 83.3 years and women 85.7 years. That's 9.5
and 6.1 years longer than the average Californian lives, respectively.
Even those Adventists who ate meat just once a week lived shorter
lives than those who ate it once a month (17).

Another studied the meat intake of half a million Americans and found
the prevalence of cardiovascular diseases and cancer decreased with
declining meat consumption while age at death increased (18).


The Primal Diet And Meat-Friendly Evolution
Primal diet and Paleo diet supporters claim that even if humans were
originally fruivores, the species has evolved to eat meat and our body
has adapted to the strains of doing so.

We have indeed adapted to meat. One study suggests that up to eight
genes in humans allow for greater protection from meat consumption. We
suffer less damage from meat eating than we would otherwise because of
this adaptation, but this is far from suggesting it's beneficial for
humans to eat meat (23).

An adaptation does not mean that it will not harm us, but merely that
it will harm us less.

We have also started producing roughly 6 times more of the starch-
digestive enzymes known as amalyze compared to our chimp ancestors
because for centuries we've tried to choke down tubers and grains
(24).

All the same, we still have a great deal less amalyze production
capability than true starch eaters like pigs, and starch digestion is
still poor compared to our fruit digestive abilities.

All the more compelling is the unmistakable fact that despite any
adaptation, meat kills us.

A basic medical text will tell you that you can cause atherclerosis in
humans, monkeys and rabits -vegetarian species - by adding
cholesterol, which is only found in animal foods. However, natural
carnivore species like dogs and cats are completely resistant (25).

The primal diet can't argue with death by clogged arteries. In fact, I
think that's really the nail in the coffin of the primal diet.

Perhaps William C. Roberts MD, author of 1300 scientific publications,
numerous cardiology textbooks, and editor of the American Journal of
Cardiology for a quarter of a century said it best.

In his 2008 editorial, "The Cause of Atherosclerosis," published in
the journal Nutrition in Clinical Practice, Roberts says that,
"Atherosclerosis is easily produced in nonhuman herbivores (eg,
rabbits, monkeys) by feeding them
a high cholesterol (eg, egg yolks) or high saturated
fat (eg, animal fat) diet… And atherosclerosis was not produced in a
minority of rats fed these diets, it was produced in
100% of the animals! Indeed, atherosclerosis is one
of the easiest diseases to produce experimentally,
but the experimental animal must be an herbivore.
It is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in a
carnivore…"

In other words, any creature that can get atherosclerosis is meant to
eat plants. Any animal who cannot is meant to eat animal protein.

Humans are clearly meant to be plant eaters, and eating a primal diet
will destroy us.

The Primal Diet: Lack of Fruits and Vegetables
Primal Diet Grapes

Even though raw fruits and vegetables play a role in the paleo diet,
because of the high intake of meat, there isn't much room for them.

This is a huge mistake for anyone interested in longevity and health,
as fruits and vegetables keep us young and vibrant.

Learn more about the huge role fruits and vegetables play in our
health and longevity here.

The Primal Diet: Too Much Fat

Paleo diets contain way too much fat. The oft-idealized Eskimos get an
unbelievable 75 percent of their calories from fat, and this has
consequences.

Read why high-fat diets are harmful here.

The Primal Diet: Not Enough Carbohydrates
I've yet to meet a Primal diet or Paleo Diet practitioner who managed
to stay on their diet 100 percent for more than a year.

Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.

The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
perpetual state of craving.

Find out how you can get satisfied on your diet by controlling
cravings with your mind and diet.


The Primal Diet: Following Up

It just doesn't make sense to think of our ancestors as eating meat-
centric diets, nor the pre-contact Inuit as particularly healthy.

It would be a far better idea to base a primal diet off of fruit-and-
vegetable-centered hunter gatherers like the Yanomamö or Trobriander,
who have much better health than the Eskimos.

Better yet, anyone would do better fueling themselves with a healthy
raw food diet made up entirely of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and
seeds. Find out how this amazing lifestyle compares to the primal diet
here.
}

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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 6, 3:29*pm, "Julie Bove" > wrote:
> AMoose in Love wrote:
>
> >http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>
> > {> Primal Dietand Paleo Diet followersareaskingall the right> questions, but they've unfortunately come toanumber of incorrect
> > conclusions.

>
> > The primal diet, sometimes referred toasaraw meat diet, neolithic> diet, paleo diet, or evenasan extreme low-carb diet, stems from the> correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on>are harming usand causing disease,and that going back to the type of> diet ourancestors lived on prior to theadvent of civilization (which> occurred onlyabout 10,000 yearsago,an eye blink in the history of> the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

>
> > Grains, packaged junk,andall cooked foodsare harmful to usand> should beavoided, but instead of making the smart choiceand> returning to the diet our species originallyate in equatorialAfrica,> they'veattempted toape the later-dayancestors who got by livingat> the margins of the world.

>
> > The Primal Diet = The Inuit (Eskimo) Diet

>
> > The Inuit people of theArctic regions of Canada, Russia,andAlaska> have lived for centuries onadiet predominately made up ofanimal> foods, with 75 percent of their calories coming from fat.

>
> > Primal Diet Raw MeatThey didn't have much choice.Aside fromafew> berries, seaweed, tubersand whatever other greenery they could gather> in their home's short summer, they were left with onlyanimals to
> > hunt.

>
> > Prior to the large-scale introduction of processed junk food from> developed countries, they were known for maintaining trim bodies> despiteall of their meat intake.

>
> > Since western food startedarriving within the last 80 years, many of> them have become overweightand developed overt diseases like> diabetes, which Primal Diet followers point toasan indication of> where our societyisgoing wrong.

>
> > Plenty of meatisfine, they say, it's the processed, cooked food you> have to watch out for.

>
> > Because of thisand the example of other meat-centric tribes, primal> diet eaters *believe the best foodsare fatty meats, organ meats,> dairy, honey, minimal fruitand vegetables,and coconut,all served> raw.

>
> >Thereare some variations of the diet that permit more carbohydrates,> but most of the food come fromanimal sources.

>
> > Pre-Western-Diet EskimosAged Earlyand Died Young

>
> > Unfortunately, claimsabout the great health of Eskimos prior to the>addition of processed foodsare overstated. Theyare not the paragons> of health meat-centric dieters want them to be.

>
> > Primal Diet EskimosIn hisbook, "Health Conditionsand Disease> IncidenceAmong The Eskimos of Labrador," Dr. Samel Hutton reported on> the Inuit before theaddition of western foods.

>
> > He studied them personally from 1902 to 1913,and hadaccess to the> detailed birthand death records kept by missionaries from the
> > previous century.

>
> > Hutton said: "Oldage sets inat fiftyand its signsare strongly> markedat sixty. In the years beyond sixty the Eskimoisagedand> feeble. Comparatively few live beyond sixtyand onlyavery few reach> seventy. Those who live to suchanage have spentalife of great>activity, feeding on Eskimo foodsand engaging in characteristically
> > Eskimo pursuits."

>
> > The more you study Eskimo culture, the more you realize it was never> free from disease,and, in fact, people of the culture suffered froma> number of disorders weassociate with meat-centric diets today.

>
> > The Eskimos were very familiar with constipation due to their low-> fiber diet,and they created the spirit Matshishkapeu, the most> powerful spirit in their mythology, to embody it. *The spirit's name> literally translates into "Fart Man." In Inuit stories, heisknown to> inflict painful cases of constipation upon peopleand other gods (7).

>
> > Read why meat causes flatulenceand constipation.

>
> > It's hard to make concerete statementsabout the health of the> prewestern food Eskimos becausethereisnotall that much dataon> them. Most hunter gatherer tribes have little dataavailable on them> from before the 1970s, which makes the insistence of primal diet> followers that Inuit were originally healthy so hard to verify. No one> has foundany great evidence pointing to their good health.

>
> > Modern day Inuit still eat tons of meat, though,and it's takinga
> > toll.

>
> > For instance, in 1976, before the worst of the processed food crisis> hit them, they consumed 2,000 mg of calciumaday fromall the soft-> bone fish theyate,ahugeamount.All the same, they had (and still> have) the highest hip-fracture rate in the world becuase they consume> so muchanimal protein from fish (19).

>
> > Fruitsand vegetablesare extremely rich in potassium, magnesium,and> calcium,along with other minerals needed for strong bones, but> because theyarealkalineand notacid likeanimal protein, they do> not strip the bones of calcium to neutralize theacid (20-21).

>
> > Most green vegetables have calciumabsoption rates over 50 percent vs> 32 percent for milk (22), but becauseanimal food causes the body to> excrete calcium in its urine, the differenceiseven greater.

>
> > The moreanimal protein you eat, the weaker your bones become.

>
> > Hint For The Primal Diet: You're LookingAt The Wrong Tribes

>
> > Unfortunately, over the last 10,000 years farming civilizations have> seized most of the land previously inhabited by hunter gatherers in> the equatorialand subtropical regions of the world, where our species> had its start.

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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On 11/6/2011 11:20 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
> http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html
>
> {
> Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
> questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
> conclusions.
>
> The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
> diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
> correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
> are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
> diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
> occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
> the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.
>
> Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
> should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
> returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
> they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
> the margins of the world.


[snipped discussion or carnivores and herbivores]

Looks like someone doesn't recognize the existence of omnivores.

> Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
> most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.
>
> The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
> need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
> the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
> perpetual state of craving.


Looks like someone doesn't know that the liver can convert proteins
into glucose more than fast enough to supply the portions of the
brain that cannot switch to using fats for energy instead. Also,
most of the rest of the body can also switch from using glucose for
energy to using fats instead.

However, switching from using glucose to using fats is slow enough
to be uncomfortable for about three days. Switching from using fats
to using glucose is much faster.

The best I can tell, they have some ideas right, but you still
need to weed out the ideas they got wrong.

Robert Miles


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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 16, 9:41*pm, Robert Miles > wrote:
> On 11/6/2011 11:20 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
>
>
>
> >http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>
> > {
> > Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
> > questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
> > conclusions.

>
> > The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
> > diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
> > correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
> > are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
> > diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
> > occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
> > the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

>
> > Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
> > should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
> > returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
> > they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
> > the margins of the world.

>
> [snipped discussion or carnivores and herbivores]
>
> Looks like someone doesn't recognize the existence of omnivores.
>
> > Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
> > most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.

>
> > The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
> > need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
> > the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
> > perpetual state of craving.

>
> Looks like someone doesn't know that the liver can convert proteins
> into glucose more than fast enough to supply the portions of the
> brain that cannot switch to using fats for energy instead. *Also,
> most of the rest of the body can also switch from using glucose for
> energy to using fats instead.
>
> However, switching from using glucose to using fats is slow enough
> to be uncomfortable for about three days. *Switching from using fats
> to using glucose is much faster.
>
> The best I can tell, they have some ideas right, but you still
> need to weed out the ideas they got wrong.
>
> Robert Miles


Nothing uses fats for energy. All cells use glucose. Fat is stored
glucose, but must be converted to glucose for use. Protein can be used
for glucose via gluconeogenisis. Deamination is the first step.

Learn about nutrition before you name a fool of yourself further.

John Kuthe, BSN, RN...

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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 16, 9:55*pm, John Kuthe > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 9:41*pm, Robert Miles > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 11/6/2011 11:20 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:

>
> > >http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>
> > > {
> > > Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
> > > questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
> > > conclusions.

>
> > > The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
> > > diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
> > > correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
> > > are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
> > > diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
> > > occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
> > > the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

>
> > > Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
> > > should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
> > > returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
> > > they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
> > > the margins of the world.

>
> > [snipped discussion or carnivores and herbivores]

>
> > Looks like someone doesn't recognize the existence of omnivores.

>
> > > Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
> > > most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.

>
> > > The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
> > > need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
> > > the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
> > > perpetual state of craving.

>
> > Looks like someone doesn't know that the liver can convert proteins
> > into glucose more than fast enough to supply the portions of the
> > brain that cannot switch to using fats for energy instead. *Also,
> > most of the rest of the body can also switch from using glucose for
> > energy to using fats instead.

>
> > However, switching from using glucose to using fats is slow enough
> > to be uncomfortable for about three days. *Switching from using fats
> > to using glucose is much faster.

>
> > The best I can tell, they have some ideas right, but you still
> > need to weed out the ideas they got wrong.

>
> > Robert Miles

>
> Nothing uses fats for energy. All cells use glucose. Fat is stored
> glucose, but must be converted to glucose for use. Protein can be used
> for glucose via gluconeogenisis. Deamination is the first step.
>
> Learn about nutrition before you name a fool of yourself further.


John, my friend, you are incorrect. Most human cells can burn ketones
as well as glucose.
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/k...m-and-ketosis/
Eads calls his eating regimen, "Protein Power," but, like Atkins, the
idea is lots of leafy greens,
with most calories coming from dietary fat is the way to lose, and
that the key is carb restriction.
Many people find ketogenic regimens unpleasant, but it sure as heck
works for burning off body fat.
It sounds weird that a high fat diet will lead to loss of body fat,
but if that diet also restricts carbs,
that is exactly what it will do.
>
> John Kuthe, BSN, RN...


--Bryan
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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On 11/16/2011 9:55 PM, John Kuthe wrote:
> On Nov 16, 9:41 pm, Robert > wrote:
>> On 11/6/2011 11:20 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>>
>>> {
>>> Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
>>> questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
>>> conclusions.

>>
>>> The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
>>> diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
>>> correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
>>> are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
>>> diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
>>> occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
>>> the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

>>
>>> Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
>>> should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
>>> returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
>>> they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
>>> the margins of the world.

>>
>> [snipped discussion or carnivores and herbivores]
>>
>> Looks like someone doesn't recognize the existence of omnivores.
>>
>>> Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
>>> most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.

>>
>>> The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
>>> need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
>>> the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
>>> perpetual state of craving.

>>
>> Looks like someone doesn't know that the liver can convert proteins
>> into glucose more than fast enough to supply the portions of the
>> brain that cannot switch to using fats for energy instead. Also,
>> most of the rest of the body can also switch from using glucose for
>> energy to using fats instead.
>>
>> However, switching from using glucose to using fats is slow enough
>> to be uncomfortable for about three days. Switching from using fats
>> to using glucose is much faster.
>>
>> The best I can tell, they have some ideas right, but you still
>> need to weed out the ideas they got wrong.
>>
>> Robert Miles

>
> Nothing uses fats for energy. All cells use glucose. Fat is stored
> glucose, but must be converted to glucose for use. Protein can be used
> for glucose via gluconeogenisis. Deamination is the first step.
>
> Learn about nutrition before you name a fool of yourself further.
>
> John Kuthe, BSN, RN...


Looks like you need to try teaching these doctors, researchers, and
writers something, then. They don't agree with you for the fats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2194504/

http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...0/ketoacidosis

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hkd021610.php

<http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-you-need.html>

http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...diets-diabetes

http://biology.about.com/library/org...gestliver5.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1204122010.htm

<http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/exploring-the-amazing-little-world-of-the-fat-cell.html>

http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20112909-22675.html

<http://www.annals.org/content/140/10/778.abstract?ijkey=d495220e0744385585bf0d4091616dd b5ac4f353&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha>

<http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8461& Itemid=17>

<http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/10/20/low.carb.diets.alter.glucose.formation.liver>

http://www.lowcarb.ca/tips/tips011.html

<http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/ketones_to_the_rescue.html>

My web searches have not found ANY articles saying that the fatty
acid portions of fats CAN be converted to glucose by the human
body, except a few by people who obviously have little if any
medical training. They can, however, be used by some parts of
the body for energy (but not the brain).

Also, the liver can convert them into ketones, which most of
the brain can use for energy. (Ignore the obsolete idea that
ketones are always toxic; scientific research has shown that
although very high levels (often found at diagnosis of type 1
diabetes) are toxic, more normal levels are a source of energy
for parts of the body).

What I've found on converting the glycerol portion to glucose
seems to show that the scientists don't agree on whether human
bodies can even do it, and generally don't think that any
research to check this would be useful.

It appears that we use different words to say roughly the same
thing about the relation of glucose and proteins, though.

I've been gathering information on nutrition issues related to
diabetes for years.

I remember finding even more relevant links when I did Google
search for this:

liver ketones fats

I've lost those links since then, or I'd list them as well.

It's now too late at night to repeat that search.

Robert Miles
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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 17, 2:56*am, Robert Miles > wrote:
> On 11/16/2011 9:55 PM, John Kuthe wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 16, 9:41 pm, Robert > *wrote:
> >> On 11/6/2011 11:20 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:

>
> >>>http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>
> >>> {
> >>> Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
> >>> questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
> >>> conclusions.

>
> >>> The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
> >>> diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
> >>> correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
> >>> are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
> >>> diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
> >>> occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
> >>> the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

>
> >>> Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
> >>> should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
> >>> returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
> >>> they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
> >>> the margins of the world.

>
> >> [snipped discussion or carnivores and herbivores]

>
> >> Looks like someone doesn't recognize the existence of omnivores.

>
> >>> Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
> >>> most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.

>
> >>> The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
> >>> need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
> >>> the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
> >>> perpetual state of craving.

>
> >> Looks like someone doesn't know that the liver can convert proteins
> >> into glucose more than fast enough to supply the portions of the
> >> brain that cannot switch to using fats for energy instead. *Also,
> >> most of the rest of the body can also switch from using glucose for
> >> energy to using fats instead.

>
> >> However, switching from using glucose to using fats is slow enough
> >> to be uncomfortable for about three days. *Switching from using fats
> >> to using glucose is much faster.

>
> >> The best I can tell, they have some ideas right, but you still
> >> need to weed out the ideas they got wrong.

>
> >> Robert Miles

>
> > Nothing uses fats for energy. All cells use glucose. Fat is stored
> > glucose, but must be converted to glucose for use. Protein can be used
> > for glucose via gluconeogenisis. Deamination is the first step.

>
> > Learn about nutrition before you name a fool of yourself further.

>
> > John Kuthe, BSN, RN...

>
> Looks like you need to try teaching these doctors, researchers, and
> writers something, then. *They don't agree with you for the fats.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2194504/
>
> http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...0/ketoacidosis
>
> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hkd021610.php
>
> <http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-...>
>
> http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...diets-diabetes
>
> http://biology.about.com/library/org...gestliver5.htm
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1204122010.htm
>
> <http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/exploring-the-amazing-littl...>
>
> http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20112909-22675.html
>
> <http://www.annals.org/content/140/10/778.abstract?ijkey=d495220e07443....>
>
> <http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar...>
>
> <http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/10/20/low.carb.diets.alter.gluc...>
>
> http://www.lowcarb.ca/tips/tips011.html
>
> <http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/ketones_to_the_...>
>
> My web searches have not found ANY articles saying that the fatty
> acid portions of fats CAN be converted to glucose by the human
> body, except a few by people who obviously have little if any
> medical training. *They can, however, be used by some parts of
> the body for energy (but not the brain).
>
> Also, the liver can convert them into ketones, which most of
> the brain can use for energy. *(Ignore the obsolete idea that
> ketones are always toxic; scientific research has shown that
> although very high levels (often found at diagnosis of type 1
> diabetes) are toxic, more normal levels are a source of energy
> for parts of the body).
>
> What I've found on converting the glycerol portion to glucose
> seems to show that the scientists don't agree on whether human
> bodies can even do it, and generally don't think that any
> research to check this would be useful.
>
> It appears that we use different words to say roughly the same
> thing about the relation of glucose and proteins, though.
>
> I've been gathering information on nutrition issues related to
> diabetes for years.
>
> I remember finding even more relevant links when I did Google
> search for this:
>
> liver ketones fats
>
> I've lost those links since then, or I'd list them as well.
>
> It's now too late at night to repeat that search.
>
> Robert Miles


These amateur nutritionists think they can usurp a long standing
medical/physiological database of knowledge about metabolism because
they have the Internet and Google. Like when Bryan hopped on Google to
show me how paper coffee filters remove some coffee oils which raise
blood cholesterol levels an infinitesimal bit. and this declared paper
filters superior to metal coffee filters. Never mind that the
clinical changes in cholesterol levels were insignificant!

Cells use glucose for energy in *normal* metabolism. In starvation or
other desperate situations cells will do most anything they have to to
allow the body to survive.

John Kuthe...
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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 16, 10:55*pm, John Kuthe > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 9:41*pm, Robert Miles > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 11/6/2011 11:20 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:

>
> > >http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>
> > > {
> > > Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
> > > questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
> > > conclusions.

>
> > > The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
> > > diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
> > > correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
> > > are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
> > > diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
> > > occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
> > > the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

>
> > > Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
> > > should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
> > > returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
> > > they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
> > > the margins of the world.

>
> > [snipped discussion or carnivores and herbivores]

>
> > Looks like someone doesn't recognize the existence of omnivores.

>
> > > Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
> > > most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.

>
> > > The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
> > > need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
> > > the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
> > > perpetual state of craving.

>
> > Looks like someone doesn't know that the liver can convert proteins
> > into glucose more than fast enough to supply the portions of the
> > brain that cannot switch to using fats for energy instead. *Also,
> > most of the rest of the body can also switch from using glucose for
> > energy to using fats instead.

>
> > However, switching from using glucose to using fats is slow enough
> > to be uncomfortable for about three days. *Switching from using fats
> > to using glucose is much faster.

>
> > The best I can tell, they have some ideas right, but you still
> > need to weed out the ideas they got wrong.

>
> > Robert Miles

>
> Nothing uses fats for energy. All cells use glucose. Fat is stored
> glucose, but must be converted to glucose for use. Protein can be used
> for glucose via gluconeogenisis. Deamination is the first step.
>
> Learn about nutrition before you name a fool of yourself further.
>
> John Kuthe, BSN, RN...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Most universities have RNs take the bullshit chemistry, nutition, etc.
classes. The ones for general knowledge. You were taught what you need
to know in a practical sense. I have great respect for what nurses do.
What almost none of them do is have a very deep knowledge of medicine.
Now empty my bedpan, bitch.


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> These amateur nutritionists think they can usurp a long standing
> medical/physiological database of knowledge about metabolism because
> they have the Internet and Google.


Could you point to one of these "long standing medical/physioloogical
databases of knowledge that supports what your saying?

In point of fact fatty acid metabolism for energy via beta oxidation
and the Krebs cycle has been established for decades (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_oxidation ). We burn fatty acids
constantly, sometimes more sometimes less depending on diet
composition, exercise type and duration. This can even be measured by
the ratio of gases we exhale. Our primary source of energy during
sleep are usually fatty acids.

As far as the bullshit general chemistry courses and internet
information you deride, you would be well served to consulting them.

Randy




Like when Bryan hopped on Google to
> show me how paper coffee filters remove some coffee oils which raise
> blood cholesterol levels an infinitesimal bit. and this declared paper
> filters superior to metal coffee filters. *Never mind that the
> clinical changes in cholesterol levels were insignificant!
>
> Cells use glucose for energy in *normal* metabolism. In starvation or
> other desperate situations cells will do most anything they have to to
> allow the body to survive.
>
> John Kuthe...


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On Nov 17, 2:53*pm, BillyZoom > wrote:
....
>
> Most universities have RNs take the bullshit chemistry, nutition, etc.
> classes. The ones for general knowledge. You were taught what you need
> to know in a practical sense. I have great respect for what nurses do.
> What almost none of them do is have a very deep knowledge of medicine.
> Now empty my bedpan, bitch.


You evidently don't have the slightest idea what nurses do.

Here, just lie back and relax as I insert this 30Fr Foley up your
urethra! Oops! Forgot the lube! Hope that was not too uncomfortable
for you!! ;-)

John Kuthe...
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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 17, 7:26*am, John Kuthe > wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2:56*am, Robert Miles > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 11/16/2011 9:55 PM, John Kuthe wrote:

>
> > > On Nov 16, 9:41 pm, Robert > *wrote:
> > >> On 11/6/2011 11:20 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:

>
> > >>>http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>
> > >>> {
> > >>> Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
> > >>> questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
> > >>> conclusions.

>
> > >>> The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
> > >>> diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
> > >>> correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
> > >>> are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
> > >>> diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
> > >>> occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
> > >>> the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

>
> > >>> Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
> > >>> should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
> > >>> returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
> > >>> they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
> > >>> the margins of the world.

>
> > >> [snipped discussion or carnivores and herbivores]

>
> > >> Looks like someone doesn't recognize the existence of omnivores.

>
> > >>> Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
> > >>> most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.

>
> > >>> The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
> > >>> need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
> > >>> the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
> > >>> perpetual state of craving.

>
> > >> Looks like someone doesn't know that the liver can convert proteins
> > >> into glucose more than fast enough to supply the portions of the
> > >> brain that cannot switch to using fats for energy instead. *Also,
> > >> most of the rest of the body can also switch from using glucose for
> > >> energy to using fats instead.

>
> > >> However, switching from using glucose to using fats is slow enough
> > >> to be uncomfortable for about three days. *Switching from using fats
> > >> to using glucose is much faster.

>
> > >> The best I can tell, they have some ideas right, but you still
> > >> need to weed out the ideas they got wrong.

>
> > >> Robert Miles

>
> > > Nothing uses fats for energy. All cells use glucose. Fat is stored
> > > glucose, but must be converted to glucose for use. Protein can be used
> > > for glucose via gluconeogenisis. Deamination is the first step.

>
> > > Learn about nutrition before you name a fool of yourself further.

>
> > > John Kuthe, BSN, RN...

>
> > Looks like you need to try teaching these doctors, researchers, and
> > writers something, then. *They don't agree with you for the fats.

>
> >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2194504/

>
> >http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...0/ketoacidosis

>
> >http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hkd021610.php

>
> > <http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-....>

>
> >http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...diets-diabetes

>
> >http://biology.about.com/library/org...gestliver5.htm

>
> >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1204122010.htm

>
> > <http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/exploring-the-amazing-littl....>

>
> >http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20112909-22675.html

>
> > <http://www.annals.org/content/140/10/778.abstract?ijkey=d495220e07443...>

>
> > <http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar...>

>
> > <http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/10/20/low.carb.diets.alter.gluc....>

>
> >http://www.lowcarb.ca/tips/tips011.html

>
> > <http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/ketones_to_the_....>

>
> > My web searches have not found ANY articles saying that the fatty
> > acid portions of fats CAN be converted to glucose by the human
> > body, except a few by people who obviously have little if any
> > medical training. *They can, however, be used by some parts of
> > the body for energy (but not the brain).

>
> > Also, the liver can convert them into ketones, which most of
> > the brain can use for energy. *(Ignore the obsolete idea that
> > ketones are always toxic; scientific research has shown that
> > although very high levels (often found at diagnosis of type 1
> > diabetes) are toxic, more normal levels are a source of energy
> > for parts of the body).

>
> > What I've found on converting the glycerol portion to glucose
> > seems to show that the scientists don't agree on whether human
> > bodies can even do it, and generally don't think that any
> > research to check this would be useful.

>
> > It appears that we use different words to say roughly the same
> > thing about the relation of glucose and proteins, though.

>
> > I've been gathering information on nutrition issues related to
> > diabetes for years.

>
> > I remember finding even more relevant links when I did Google
> > search for this:

>
> > liver ketones fats

>
> > I've lost those links since then, or I'd list them as well.

>
> > It's now too late at night to repeat that search.

>
> > Robert Miles

>
> These amateur nutritionists think they can usurp a long standing
> medical/physiological database of knowledge about metabolism because
> they have the Internet and Google. Like when Bryan hopped on Google to
> show me how paper coffee filters remove some coffee oils which raise
> blood cholesterol levels an infinitesimal bit. and this declared paper
> filters superior to metal coffee filters. *Never mind that the
> clinical changes in cholesterol levels were insignificant!
>
> Cells use glucose for energy in *normal* metabolism. In starvation or
> other desperate situations cells will do most anything they have to to
> allow the body to survive.


It is not "normal" to have a steady supply of calories all year long.
Lean times of year, the body burns fat it stored during seasons when
there is excess food. That is normal. Ketosis is normal metabolism.
>
> John Kuthe...


--Bryan
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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

In alt.support.diabetes John Kuthe > wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2:56*am, Robert Miles > wrote:
>> On 11/16/2011 9:55 PM, John Kuthe wrote:
>> > On Nov 16, 9:41 pm, Robert > *wrote:
>> >> On 11/6/2011 11:20 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:

>>
>> >>>http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

>>
>> >>> {
>> >>> Primal Diet and Paleo Diet followers are asking all the right
>> >>> questions, but they've unfortunately come to a number of incorrect
>> >>> conclusions.

>>
>> >>> The primal diet, sometimes referred to as a raw meat diet, neolithic
>> >>> diet, paleo diet, or even as an extreme low-carb diet, stems from the
>> >>> correct belief that the processed, cooked foods modern humans rely on
>> >>> are harming us and causing disease, and that going back to the type of
>> >>> diet our ancestors lived on prior to the advent of civilization (which
>> >>> occurred only about 10,000 years ago, an eye blink in the history of
>> >>> the species) will relieve us of the diseases we suffer from.

>>
>> >>> Grains, packaged junk, and all cooked foods are harmful to us and
>> >>> should be avoided, but instead of making the smart choice and
>> >>> returning to the diet our species originally ate in equatorial Africa,
>> >>> they've attempted to ape the later-day ancestors who got by living at
>> >>> the margins of the world.

>>
>> >> [snipped discussion or carnivores and herbivores]

>>
>> >> Looks like someone doesn't recognize the existence of omnivores.

>>
>> >>> Inevitably cravings send them backed to cooked, processed food, and
>> >>> most often, various types of carbohydrates such as bread and pasta.

>>
>> >>> The reason for the high rate of failure is tied to the fact that we
>> >>> need simple sugars to fuel every cell in the body, from the muscles to
>> >>> the brain, and if we don't take in carbohydrates the body is left in a
>> >>> perpetual state of craving.

>>
>> >> Looks like someone doesn't know that the liver can convert proteins
>> >> into glucose more than fast enough to supply the portions of the
>> >> brain that cannot switch to using fats for energy instead. *Also,
>> >> most of the rest of the body can also switch from using glucose for
>> >> energy to using fats instead.

>>
>> >> However, switching from using glucose to using fats is slow enough
>> >> to be uncomfortable for about three days. *Switching from using fats
>> >> to using glucose is much faster.

>>
>> >> The best I can tell, they have some ideas right, but you still
>> >> need to weed out the ideas they got wrong.

>>
>> >> Robert Miles

>>
>> > Nothing uses fats for energy. All cells use glucose. Fat is stored
>> > glucose, but must be converted to glucose for use. Protein can be used
>> > for glucose via gluconeogenisis. Deamination is the first step.

>>
>> > Learn about nutrition before you name a fool of yourself further.

>>
>> > John Kuthe, BSN, RN...

>>
>> Looks like you need to try teaching these doctors, researchers, and
>> writers something, then. *They don't agree with you for the fats.
>>
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2194504/
>>
>> http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...0/ketoacidosis
>>
>> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hkd021610.php
>>
>> <http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-...>
>>
>> http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...diets-diabetes
>>
>> http://biology.about.com/library/org...gestliver5.htm
>>
>> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1204122010.htm
>>
>> <http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/exploring-the-amazing-littl...>
>>
>> http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20112909-22675.html
>>
>> <http://www.annals.org/content/140/10/778.abstract?ijkey=d495220e07443...>
>>
>> <http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar...>
>>
>> <http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/10/20/low.carb.diets.alter.gluc...>
>>
>> http://www.lowcarb.ca/tips/tips011.html
>>
>> <http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/ketones_to_the_...>
>>
>> My web searches have not found ANY articles saying that the fatty
>> acid portions of fats CAN be converted to glucose by the human
>> body, except a few by people who obviously have little if any
>> medical training. *They can, however, be used by some parts of
>> the body for energy (but not the brain).
>>
>> Also, the liver can convert them into ketones, which most of
>> the brain can use for energy. *(Ignore the obsolete idea that
>> ketones are always toxic; scientific research has shown that
>> although very high levels (often found at diagnosis of type 1
>> diabetes) are toxic, more normal levels are a source of energy
>> for parts of the body).
>>
>> What I've found on converting the glycerol portion to glucose
>> seems to show that the scientists don't agree on whether human
>> bodies can even do it, and generally don't think that any
>> research to check this would be useful.
>>
>> It appears that we use different words to say roughly the same
>> thing about the relation of glucose and proteins, though.
>>
>> I've been gathering information on nutrition issues related to
>> diabetes for years.
>>
>> I remember finding even more relevant links when I did Google
>> search for this:
>>
>> liver ketones fats
>>
>> I've lost those links since then, or I'd list them as well.
>>
>> It's now too late at night to repeat that search.
>>
>> Robert Miles


> These amateur nutritionists think they can usurp a long standing
> medical/physiological database of knowledge about metabolism because
> they have the Internet and Google. Like when Bryan hopped on Google to
> show me how paper coffee filters remove some coffee oils which raise
> blood cholesterol levels an infinitesimal bit. and this declared paper
> filters superior to metal coffee filters. Never mind that the
> clinical changes in cholesterol levels were insignificant!


> Cells use glucose for energy in *normal* metabolism. In starvation or
> other desperate situations cells will do most anything they have to to
> allow the body to survive.


No, not anything. A few quite specific things. When carbohydrate
intake falls temporarily below energy output the body simply starts to
make use of the fat stores it puts down when there's plenty of food
and not much demand for physical exertion. That's what the fat stores
are for. That's how every animal including humans uses their fat
stores. It's part of normal animal metabolism.

If there's ALWAYS plenty of food and NEVER much demand for physical
exertion that's not normal metabolism. It's an abnormal state which is
likely over time to lead to obesity.

--
Chris Malcolm
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On 11/17/2011 8:01 AM, Canth wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 02:56:08 -0600, Robert Miles
> > wrote:
>
>> On 11/16/2011 9:55 PM, John Kuthe wrote:
>>> On Nov 16, 9:41 pm, Robert > wrote:
>>>> On 11/6/2011 11:20 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:

[snip]
>> What I've found on converting the glycerol portion to glucose
>> seems to show that the scientists don't agree on whether human
>> bodies can even do it, and generally don't think that any
>> research to check this would be useful.
>>

>
> The article to which I alluded in my previous post show a reversible
> pathway from glycerol to Pyruvate. Since Pyruvate can be reversibly
> converted to glucose, I presume this to be the mechanism. Note also
> that Pyruvate can be irreversibly converted to Acetyl Co-Enzyme A,
> whereby it enters the fat side of metabolism.


Looks like you've found suitable keywords for me to try some
more web searching on this, when I find enough free time.
Perhaps next week.

Robert Miles



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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong


Many of the posts in this thread are a good example of how
fundamental, established science is turned on it's ahead and presented
as a matter of debate.

Chris Wrote:
> When carbohydrate
> intake falls temporarily below energy output the body simply starts to
> make use of the fat stores it puts down when there's plenty of food
> and not much demand for physical exertion.


More generally when calories in (not just carbohydrate) are less than
calories used the use of fats stores are accelerated. This is solidly
established. In the last few months lots of supporting data has been
presented on just this issue. Just to be clear a high carb/low calorie
diet will use fat stores a quickly as low carb/low calorie diet.

Also, fat metabolism (for energy) is constantly on going with
carbohydrate metabolism. It's not a situation of either burning all
carbs or all fats. The proportion of carb/fats burned does vary with
diet type, exercise and so forth but they do go on concurrently.
Generally less intense activities burn more fat than carbs. Slow
jogging burns more fat that running sprints. There's a well
established technique that based on the mix of exhaled gases that
gives a pretty good estimate of the carb/fat proportions that are
being burned at any given time.

Keytosis is not the primary way fat is metabolized. Fat is usually
burned by pathways that don't involve alot of ketone body generaton,
although keytosis is a path that can metabolize fat for energy,

If anyone wants a great primer on the science of human metabolism I
highly recommend this PDF: http://tinyurl.com/8ywvcxc

Regards
Randy
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On 11/19/2011 12:50 AM, wrote:
>
> Many of the posts in this thread are a good example of how
> fundamental, established science is turned on it's ahead and presented
> as a matter of debate.
>
> Chris Wrote:

[snip]
> Keytosis is not the primary way fat is metabolized. Fat is usually
> burned by pathways that don't involve alot of ketone body generaton,
> although keytosis is a path that can metabolize fat for energy,
>
> If anyone wants a great primer on the science of human metabolism I
> highly recommend this PDF:
http://tinyurl.com/8ywvcxc
>
> Regards
> Randy


I've read that most of the body, but not the brain, can burn fatty
acids instead, and therefore use up most of the parts of the fat.

Fatty acids cannot enter the brain, but ketones can. Most, but
not all, of the brain can use ketones for energy instead, and
therefore a low level of ketosis allows the brain to help burn up
fats. A lack of insulin tends to raise the ketosis to toxic
levels, though.

I tried the link you gave. It didn't work.

Robert Miles

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On Nov 19, 10:52*pm, Robert Miles > wrote:
> On 11/19/2011 12:50 AM, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Many of the posts in this thread are a good example of how
> > fundamental, established science is turned on it's ahead and presented
> > as a matter of debate.

>
> > Chris Wrote:

> [snip]
> > Keytosis is not the primary way fat is metabolized. Fat is usually
> > burned by pathways that don't involve alot of ketone body generaton,
> > although keytosis is a path that can metabolize fat for energy,

>
> > If anyone wants a great primer on the science of human metabolism I
> > highly recommend this PDF:http://tinyurl.com/8ywvcxc

>
> > Regards
> > Randy

Robert Wrote:
> I've read that most of the body, but not the brain, can burn fatty
> acids instead, and therefore use up most of the parts of the fat.


Its true that parts of the brain can metabolize either ketones or
glucose but not fatty acids directly. I don't see what you point it
though. There are other parts of the nervous system that cannot burn
ketones and must burn either glucose or fat. I don't see the point
your trying to make. There is no part of the body can only metabolize
ketones.



Robert wrote:
> I tried the link you gave. *It didn't work.


The link works fine on my end. : http://tinyurl.com/8ywvcxc

Here's the complete link:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4EXHTsq...metabolism.pdf

BTW- This paper is a great overview of metabolism that covers glucose,
fatty acide and ketones. Highly recommend for those that like to read
this kind of stuff.

Randy


> Robert Miles


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In article >,
Robert Miles > wrote:

> On 11/20/2011 7:51 AM, wrote:


> > The link works fine on my end. :
http://tinyurl.com/8ywvcxc
> >
> > Here's the complete link:
> > http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4EXHTsq...0G8c6b5SUSJdDF
> > jmIzGy_dGOqXejOHUI3FC1wwAkWwDgDG1LfKB-zcWl9heVetk3yn9A3c/disc_nut_spotlightm
> > etabolism.pdf
> >
> > BTW- This paper is a great overview of metabolism that covers glucose,
> > fatty acide and ketones. Highly recommend for those that like to read
> > this kind of stuff.


> Neither of those links work for me, so perhaps the problem is
> something unexpected, such as my ISP blocking access to that
> site.


I don't think so. I couldn't get through with either URL, even though
both were valid. I tried just:

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/

and Yahoo gave me some messages that made it look like you have to be
logged into the Yahoo group to access that site.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA



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On 11/20/2011 2:33 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
> In >,
> Robert > wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2011 7:51 AM, wrote:

>
>>> The link works fine on my end. :
http://tinyurl.com/8ywvcxc
>>>
>>> Here's the complete link:
>>> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4EXHTsq...0G8c6b5SUSJdDF
>>> jmIzGy_dGOqXejOHUI3FC1wwAkWwDgDG1LfKB-zcWl9heVetk3yn9A3c/disc_nut_spotlightm
>>> etabolism.pdf
>>>
>>> BTW- This paper is a great overview of metabolism that covers glucose,
>>> fatty acide and ketones. Highly recommend for those that like to read
>>> this kind of stuff.

>
>> Neither of those links work for me, so perhaps the problem is
>> something unexpected, such as my ISP blocking access to that
>> site.

>
> I don't think so. I couldn't get through with either URL, even though
> both were valid. I tried just:
>
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/
>
> and Yahoo gave me some messages that made it look like you have to be
> logged into the Yahoo group to access that site.


Perhaps for you. But for me, all three sites give me the same error
message:

404 - Site not found

Robert Miles

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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong



"Robert Miles" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/20/2011 2:33 PM, Dan Abel wrote:
>> In >,
>> Robert > wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/20/2011 7:51 AM, wrote:

>>
>>>> The link works fine on my end. :
http://tinyurl.com/8ywvcxc
>>>>
>>>> Here's the complete link:
>>>> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4EXHTsq...0G8c6b5SUSJdDF
>>>> jmIzGy_dGOqXejOHUI3FC1wwAkWwDgDG1LfKB-zcWl9heVetk3yn9A3c/disc_nut_spotlightm
>>>> etabolism.pdf
>>>>
>>>> BTW- This paper is a great overview of metabolism that covers
>>>> glucose,
>>>> fatty acide and ketones. Highly recommend for those that like to
>>>> read
>>>> this kind of stuff.

>>
>>> Neither of those links work for me, so perhaps the problem is
>>> something unexpected, such as my ISP blocking access to that
>>> site.

>>
>> I don't think so. I couldn't get through with either URL, even
>> though
>> both were valid. I tried just:
>>
>> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/
>>
>> and Yahoo gave me some messages that made it look like you have to be
>> logged into the Yahoo group to access that site.

>
> Perhaps for you. But for me, all three sites give me the same error
> message:
>
> 404 - Site not found
>
> Robert Miles


Its possible a url that is a result of a search, they often won't
connect.
>

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On Nov 17, 8:32*pm, John Kuthe > wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2:53*pm, BillyZoom > wrote:
> ...
>
>
>
> > Most universities have RNs take the bullshit chemistry, nutition, etc.
> > classes. The ones for general knowledge. You were taught what you need
> > to know in a practical sense. I have great respect for what nurses do.
> > What almost none of them do is have a very deep knowledge of medicine.
> > Now empty my bedpan, bitch.

>
> You evidently don't have the slightest idea what nurses do.
>
> Here, just lie back and relax as I insert this 30Fr Foley up your
> urethra! Oops! Forgot the lube! Hope that was not too uncomfortable
> for you!! ;-)
>
> John Kuthe...


I know. That was just a joke. You do have great knowledge about
procedures. Just don't get on your high horse about Chemistry and
Biochemistry knowledge. I took those courses in college and I was
required to take the REAL track. Not the nurse, dental hygenist,
pharmacist track.
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Default Primal diet, where it goes wrong

On Nov 17, 8:32*pm, John Kuthe > wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2:53*pm, BillyZoom > wrote:
> ...
>
>
>
> > Most universities have RNs take the bullshit chemistry, nutition, etc.
> > classes. The ones for general knowledge. You were taught what you need
> > to know in a practical sense. I have great respect for what nurses do.
> > What almost none of them do is have a very deep knowledge of medicine.
> > Now empty my bedpan, bitch.

>
> You evidently don't have the slightest idea what nurses do.
>
> Here, just lie back and relax as I insert this 30Fr Foley up your
> urethra! Oops! Forgot the lube! Hope that was not too uncomfortable
> for you!! ;-)
>
> John Kuthe...


And by the way, are you sure you're a BSN? Becuase your career
progress is, frankly, shit. When I had surgery three years ago, there
was no shortage of 22-24 year old male RNs on my floor. What extreme
defect is it that you have that prevents you from getting a decent job?
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