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I was dithering between sponge cakes and chiffon cakes. Orange
chiffon looked good, but sponge looked easier with less fat. Couldn't
make up my mind. The Joy of Baking recipe uses oil, orange juice, 6
eggs and an extra white for orange chiffon... their sponge cake uses 6
eggs, no oil and only the zest of a lemon, but I wanted more flavor
and orange is still on my mind so I was wondering if I could use
orange juice with their sponge cake and not mess it up.

Well, I just found Julia Child's Orange Sponge Cake recipe online so
I'm going with that. Now I need to know if I can cut back on the
amount of sugar. It seems like semi-equal parts sugar and flour with
additional OJ will be toothachingly sweet. I'm looking for a more
European/Chinese type sweetness (or lack of).

TIA!

http://recipes.sparkpeople.com/recip...recipe=1019355

Julia Child's Orange Spongecake
Submitted by: PMGOHIO

Ingredients

2/3 cup granulated sugar
4 egg yolks
Grated rind of 1 orange
1/3 cup strained orange juice
Pinch of salt
3/4 cup cake flour (scooped and leveled, turned into a sifter)
4 egg whites
Pinch of salt
1 Tbsp. granulated sugar


Directions

Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Butter and flour a 9" round cake pan and
measure out all ingredients.

Gradually beat the sugar into the egg yolks and continue beating until
the mixture thickens to form a ribbon when the beaters are lifted. Add
the grated orange peel, orange juice and salt. Beat for a minute or
two until the mixture is light and foamy. Then beat in the flour.

Beat the egg whites and salt together in a separate bowl until soft
peaks are formed. *Sprinkle on the sugar and beat until stiff peaks
are formed. Stir 1/4 of the egg whites into the batter; delicately
fold in the rest. Immediately turn into prepared cake pan and run the
batter up to the rim all around. Bake in middle position of preheated
oven for 30 to 35 minutes. Cake is done when it has puffed and
browned, and shows a faint line of shrinkage from the edge of the pan.
Let cool for 6-8 minutes. Run a knife around the edge of the pan and
reverse cake on a rack. If not to be iced, immediately reverse again,
puffed side up. Allow to cool for an hour or two.

**When cake is cold, you can sprinkle it with powdered sugar, or fill
and ice the cake with Orange-butter Filling and Orange-butter Creme
Icing.

Notes:

*I will combine the sugar and orange zest in a separate bowl first and
let it sit for a few minutes to let the zest color the sugar orange.

** I'll use Giusi's version of glaze this time, but I'll probably use
freshly squeezed orange juice in addition to water.



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On Jun 18, 1:48*pm, sf > wrote:
> I was dithering between sponge cakes and chiffon cakes. *Orange
> chiffon looked good, but sponge looked easier with less fat. *


*snip

**** off, bitch.
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On Jun 18, 12:09*pm, projectile vomit chick
> wrote:
> On Jun 18, 1:48*pm, sf > wrote:
>
> > I was dithering between sponge cakes and chiffon cakes. *Orange
> > chiffon looked good, but sponge looked easier with less fat. *

>
> *snip
>
> **** off, bitch.


You da bitch.
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On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 13:21:35 -0700 (PDT), Chemo the Clown
> wrote:

> On Jun 18, 12:09*pm, projectile vomit chick
> > wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 1:48*pm, sf > wrote:
> >
> > > I was dithering between sponge cakes and chiffon cakes. *Orange
> > > chiffon looked good, but sponge looked easier with less fat. *

> >
> > *snip
> >
> > **** off, bitch.

>
> You da bitch.


Now we know that she knows zip about cake.

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projectile vomit chick wrote:
>sf wrote:
>>
>> I was dithering between sponge cakes and chiffon cakes. *Orange
>> chiffon looked good, but sponge looked easier with less fat. *

>
>**** off, bitch.


Wouldn't that depend on what IS IS, if dithering IS diddling.


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On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 13:21:35 -0700 (PDT), Chemo the Clown
> wrote:

>On Jun 18, 12:09*pm, projectile vomit chick
> wrote:
>> On Jun 18, 1:48*pm, sf > wrote:
>>
>> > I was dithering between sponge cakes and chiffon cakes. *Orange
>> > chiffon looked good, but sponge looked easier with less fat. *

>>
>> *snip
>>
>> **** off, bitch.

>
>You da bitch.


You be mighty quick to know what's bitch.
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On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:10:27 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:

> projectile vomit chick wrote:
> >sf wrote:
> >>
> >> I was dithering between sponge cakes and chiffon cakes. *Orange
> >> chiffon looked good, but sponge looked easier with less fat. *

> >
> >**** off, bitch.

>
> Wouldn't that depend on what IS IS, if dithering IS diddling.


Not in my dictionary.

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"sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> I was dithering between sponge cakes and chiffon cakes. Orange
> chiffon looked good, but sponge looked easier with less fat. Couldn't
> make up my mind. The Joy of Baking recipe uses oil, orange juice, 6
> eggs and an extra white for orange chiffon... their sponge cake uses 6
> eggs, no oil and only the zest of a lemon, but I wanted more flavor
> and orange is still on my mind so I was wondering if I could use
> orange juice with their sponge cake and not mess it up.
>
> Well, I just found Julia Child's Orange Sponge Cake recipe online so
> I'm going with that. Now I need to know if I can cut back on the
> amount of sugar. It seems like semi-equal parts sugar and flour with
> additional OJ will be toothachingly sweet. I'm looking for a more
> European/Chinese type sweetness (or lack


Sugar does so much more than sweeten. There are entire lists of recipes
that don't work without sugar. You can only try and report back. Orange
juice is usually not all that sweet, though. I think grated peel makes for
more taste with less sweet. Or one could use orange oil/extract.

My mother's best cake ever was a burnt sugar chiffon with burnt sugar icing.
I have the same two standard cookbooks she had although mine, not new, are
newer than hers were. I have tried to make that cake and although it's
good, it's never as good as hers. Mine are sweeter and less bitter. So I
do understand a sweet being too sweet.


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On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 08:09:35 +0200, "Giusi" >
wrote:

>
> "sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> > I was dithering between sponge cakes and chiffon cakes. Orange
> > chiffon looked good, but sponge looked easier with less fat. Couldn't
> > make up my mind. The Joy of Baking recipe uses oil, orange juice, 6
> > eggs and an extra white for orange chiffon... their sponge cake uses 6
> > eggs, no oil and only the zest of a lemon, but I wanted more flavor
> > and orange is still on my mind so I was wondering if I could use
> > orange juice with their sponge cake and not mess it up.
> >
> > Well, I just found Julia Child's Orange Sponge Cake recipe online so
> > I'm going with that. Now I need to know if I can cut back on the
> > amount of sugar. It seems like semi-equal parts sugar and flour with
> > additional OJ will be toothachingly sweet. I'm looking for a more
> > European/Chinese type sweetness (or lack

>
> Sugar does so much more than sweeten. There are entire lists of recipes
> that don't work without sugar. You can only try and report back. Orange
> juice is usually not all that sweet, though. I think grated peel makes for
> more taste with less sweet. Or one could use orange oil/extract.


Okay, thanks. I wasn't going to eliminate sugar entirely; probably to
1/2 a cup.
>
> My mother's best cake ever was a burnt sugar chiffon with burnt sugar icing.
> I have the same two standard cookbooks she had although mine, not new, are
> newer than hers were. I have tried to make that cake and although it's
> good, it's never as good as hers. Mine are sweeter and less bitter. So I
> do understand a sweet being too sweet.
>


I wondered if reducing the sugar will affect how the cake bakes up and
if there are any words of caution.

--

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<snip>
> I'm looking for a more
> European/Chinese type sweetness (or lack of).


It's difficult to understand what you mean, since classic European desserts
are at least as sweet as "native" American-style desserts (Blueberry pie?
Strawberry shortcake on a biscuit?), often more so. Asian desserts are
notoriously cloyingly sweet.

Regarding sugar in cakes: the sugar tenderizes the cake as well as providing
sweetness. A cake with no fat in it usually has more sugar instead (think
angel food cake).

If you want to lend a tarter, more fruity flavor to it, brushing it with a
syrup that contains a lot of juice will help. But orange isn't very tart to
start out with...

I have a great recipe for a buttery French apple cake that contains both
lemon and orange zest--or can be made with just lemon. It's rich, but not
very sweet, and travels well. Great for summer picnics. But it's not low
fat.




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sf wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 09:32:37 -0400, "Janet" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> <snip>
>>> I'm looking for a more
>>> European/Chinese type sweetness (or lack of).

>>
>> It's difficult to understand what you mean, since classic European
>> desserts are at least as sweet as "native" American-style desserts
>> (Blueberry pie? Strawberry shortcake on a biscuit?), often more so.
>> Asian desserts are notoriously cloyingly sweet.

>
> I don't know where you got that idea. There are lots of chinese
> bakeries in my city and you won't find a cake or pastry that is beyond
> barely sweet.


I don't think I've ever patronized a Chinese bakery. Sounds interesting.
Most of the Chinese "baked goods" I've had were intended to be a savory. The
few Chinese baked sweets I've had--things like almond cookies--were at least
as sweet as their American counterparts. Looking through my Chinese
cookbooks, the recipes include very sweet rice puddings and things of that
sort that I, personally, usually find horribly sweet. Like you, I'm not a
big fan of very sweet stuff. There are also recipes for cakes with similar
amounts of sugar and flour to that you'd see in a western-style item.

But, I wasn't talking just about Chinese food, but Asian food in general:
Indian, Thai, Japanese, etc. As Madhur Jaffrey says, "Indian sweets tend to
be VERY sweet." My very authentic Thai cookbooks don't have a lot of dessert
recipes, but those they do have tend in the direction of extremely sweet
coconut puddings and custards. Great food, but not exactly known for great
desserts.

>I was in Europe last month and every dessert I ordered
> was down at the level of sweetness I find in chinese bakeries here.
> Nothing was American style overly sweet.


I'd suggest that that might have been a function of what you ordered. (Ever
try the Zuger kirschtorte? A classic Viennese dessert. Sickeningly sweet, to
my taste.) Well-made "American-style" desserts like fruit pies and so on
aren't gloppily sweet either. Of course, most American bakeries make crap
out of crap ingredients. They use shortening and a lot of sugar instead of
butter. The typical bakery icing is made from crisco and confectioner's
sugar. Scratch bakers who use good ingredients are few and far between, even
among professionals. (Speaking of which, I watched Cake Boss for the first
time at the gym on Friday, and their stuff looks like complete garbage: all
shortening, no butter, and so on. What gives people the idea that that kind
of crap is good?)

>> Regarding sugar in cakes: the sugar tenderizes the cake as well as
>> providing sweetness. A cake with no fat in it usually has more sugar
>> instead (think angel food cake).

>
> Yes I noticed and that's why I'm going with sponge, which according to
> Joy of Baking calls for less sugar than angel food. Thanks. I guess
> the sugar/fat thing in cakes is like salt/fat in potato chips, which
> are pretty much tasteless when they leave out both.
>>
>> If you want to lend a tarter, more fruity flavor to it, brushing it
>> with a syrup that contains a lot of juice will help. But orange
>> isn't very tart to start out with...

>
> I'm not going for tart in this cake, just as much of an orangey flavor
> as I can get without using orange extract. The vegetable store didn't
> have valencias, but they had honey oranges and they looked juicy to
> me. I will zest them first and let the zest macerate in the sugar for
> 20 minutes or so first.
>>
>> I have a great recipe for a buttery French apple cake that contains
>> both lemon and orange zest--or can be made with just lemon. It's
>> rich, but not very sweet, and travels well. Great for summer
>> picnics. But it's not low fat.
>>

> Sounds delicious and I'd love to see the recipe, but I will stick with
> the sponge cake for now and plan to reduce the sugar to half a cup.
> Thanks.


I'll post the recipe at some point. It will be interesting to see how your
cake turns out with reduced sugar.


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On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 13:21:21 -0400, "Janet" >
wrote:

> sf wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 09:32:37 -0400, "Janet" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>> I'm looking for a more
> >>> European/Chinese type sweetness (or lack of).
> >>
> >> It's difficult to understand what you mean, since classic European
> >> desserts are at least as sweet as "native" American-style desserts
> >> (Blueberry pie? Strawberry shortcake on a biscuit?), often more so.
> >> Asian desserts are notoriously cloyingly sweet.

> >
> > I don't know where you got that idea. There are lots of chinese
> > bakeries in my city and you won't find a cake or pastry that is beyond
> > barely sweet.

>
> I don't think I've ever patronized a Chinese bakery. Sounds interesting.


They use real whipped cream too.

> Most of the Chinese "baked goods" I've had were intended to be a savory.


Yes, I know what you're talking about. You won't find anything like
that in the outback of China.

> The
> few Chinese baked sweets I've had--things like almond cookies--were at least
> as sweet as their American counterparts. Looking through my Chinese
> cookbooks, the recipes include very sweet rice puddings and things of that
> sort that I, personally, usually find horribly sweet. Like you, I'm not a
> big fan of very sweet stuff. There are also recipes for cakes with similar
> amounts of sugar and flour to that you'd see in a western-style item.


Those are not real Chinese recipes. They don't bake; they don't have
ovens unless it's a Westernized kitchen. I visited a Chinese neighbor
who had a marvelous modern Western kitchen and we started talking
about food... she told me that she never uses her oven and opened the
door to prove it. She was using it to store dishes, just like any
other cabinet in the kitchen. LOL
>
> But, I wasn't talking just about Chinese food, but Asian food in general:
> Indian, Thai, Japanese, etc. As Madhur Jaffrey says, "Indian sweets tend to
> be VERY sweet."


I wasn't. I was talking about Chinese specifically. I rarely eat
Indian food, so I know nothing about that stuff. The rest seem to
serve American or Americanized desserts. I don't think "dessert" in
the American/European sense is served in their cultures. I can ask.
I know mochi is Japanese, but I've never tried it and can't say it's a
dessert selection ever/often (I need to notice).

>My very authentic Thai cookbooks don't have a lot of dessert
> recipes, but those they do have tend in the direction of extremely sweet
> coconut puddings and custards. Great food, but not exactly known for great
> desserts.


No they aren't.

We ate the way the locals do when we toured China last year and
dessert was usually a thin, watery, almost flavorless soup that was
definitely not sweet. Have you ever tried almond "pudding"? I can
post the recipe for you sometime. It's easy to make and not too
sweet, but I don't know how authentic it is.
>
> >I was in Europe last month and every dessert I ordered
> > was down at the level of sweetness I find in chinese bakeries here.
> > Nothing was American style overly sweet.

>
> I'd suggest that that might have been a function of what you ordered. (Ever
> try the Zuger kirschtorte? A classic Viennese dessert. Sickeningly sweet, to
> my taste.)


No, but I did order Sacher Torte and it was just barely sweet enough
to make the chocolate not bitter and sooo good with espresso.

> Well-made "American-style" desserts like fruit pies and so on
> aren't gloppily sweet either. Of course, most American bakeries make crap
> out of crap ingredients. They use shortening and a lot of sugar instead of
> butter. The typical bakery icing is made from crisco and confectioner's
> sugar. Scratch bakers who use good ingredients are few and far between, even
> among professionals. (Speaking of which, I watched Cake Boss for the first
> time at the gym on Friday, and their stuff looks like complete garbage: all
> shortening, no butter, and so on. What gives people the idea that that kind
> of crap is good?)
>
> >> Regarding sugar in cakes: the sugar tenderizes the cake as well as
> >> providing sweetness.


This part is just starting to sink in. Now I'm conflicted about
reducing the sugar.

<snip>
>
> I'll post the recipe at some point.


Thanks!

> It will be interesting to see how your cake turns out with reduced sugar.
>

The cake should be fine (fingers crossed) - it's not that drastic of a
reduction.

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>
> I don't think I've ever patronized a Chinese bakery. Sounds interesting.
> Most of the Chinese "baked goods" I've had were intended to be a savory. The
> few Chinese baked sweets I've had--things like almond cookies--were at least
> as sweet as their American counterparts. Looking through my Chinese
> cookbooks, the recipes include very sweet rice puddings and things of that
> sort that I, personally, usually find horribly sweet. Like you, I'm not a
> big fan of very sweet stuff. There are also recipes for cakes with similar
> amounts of sugar and flour to that you'd see in a western-style item.
>
> But, I wasn't talking just about Chinese food, but Asian food in general:
> Indian, Thai, Japanese, etc. As Madhur Jaffrey says, "Indian sweets tend to
> be VERY sweet." My very authentic Thai cookbooks don't have a lot of dessert
> recipes, but those they do have tend in the direction of extremely sweet
> coconut puddings and custards. Great food, but not exactly known for great
> desserts.


I have often read posts that say in general, Asian cuisine doesn't
encompass overly sweet desserts, snacks, etc., but in my experience,
once those Asian kids hit our shores for college or whatever, they
dive into American sweets with a vengeance. Maybe it has something to
do with past generations' access to sugar or something. I'm just
making an observation, not arguing. YMMV.

N.
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my taste.) Well-made "American-style" desserts like fruit pies and so
on
> aren't gloppily sweet either. Of course, most American bakeries make crap
> out of crap ingredients. They use shortening and a lot of sugar instead of
> butter. The typical bakery icing is made from crisco and confectioner's
> sugar. Scratch bakers who use good ingredients are few and far between, even
> among professionals. (Speaking of which, I watched Cake Boss for the first
> time at the gym on Friday, and their stuff looks like complete garbage: all
> shortening, no butter, and so on. What gives people the idea that that kind
> of crap is good?)


You really don't know what you're talking about when you say "most
bakeries...," or "typical bakery icing," unless you've done a
scientifically large sampling, which you haven't. You really
shouldn't generalize in that manner, because you would be wrong.

N.
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Nancy2 wrote:
> my taste.) Well-made "American-style" desserts like fruit pies and so
> on
>> aren't gloppily sweet either. Of course, most American bakeries make
>> crap out of crap ingredients. They use shortening and a lot of sugar
>> instead of butter. The typical bakery icing is made from crisco and
>> confectioner's sugar. Scratch bakers who use good ingredients are
>> few and far between, even among professionals. (Speaking of which, I
>> watched Cake Boss for the first time at the gym on Friday, and their
>> stuff looks like complete garbage: all shortening, no butter, and so
>> on. What gives people the idea that that kind of crap is good?)

>
> You really don't know what you're talking about when you say "most
> bakeries...," or "typical bakery icing," unless you've done a
> scientifically large sampling, which you haven't. You really
> shouldn't generalize in that manner, because you would be wrong.
>
> N.


Technically you are correct, but...I am in my fifties and have experienced
many bakeries. I have a store amongst my clients which sells the products of
15 independent bakers (and I know what they use). I've participated for many
years in online discussion groups with dozens of professional bakers. (I was
naive enough at first to be shocked to discover that MOST of the wedding
cake bakers use doctored mixes instead of scratch baking...) "Baker's icing"
is a term of art, as they say, and believe me, it does not mean classic
buttercream made with eggs, sugar, and butter: it means confectioner's sugar
and vegetable shortening. The better bakers might add some butter.

Sure, it's not a scientific study, but the good bakeries--as I personally
define good, which means good ingredients--seem to be a tiny minority. The
most commonly heard thing is that "butter is too expensive."




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"sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio

> I wondered if reducing the sugar will affect how the cake bakes up and
> if there are any words of caution.


It certainly will. It''s quite a bit of the bulk of a cake based on eggs.


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On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:58:18 +0200, "Giusi" >
wrote:

>
> "sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> > I wondered if reducing the sugar will affect how the cake bakes up and
> > if there are any words of caution.

>
> It certainly will. It''s quite a bit of the bulk of a cake based on eggs.
>

OK, I won't mess with the recipe until I make it a second time (if I
like the first enough to repeat it). Good thing you wrote when you
did because the eggs are warming up now!

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On Jun 21, 9:22*am, "Janet" > wrote:
> Nancy2 wrote:
> > my taste.) Well-made "American-style" desserts like fruit pies and so
> > on
> >> aren't gloppily sweet either. Of course, most American bakeries make
> >> crap out of crap ingredients. They use shortening and a lot of sugar
> >> instead of butter. The typical bakery icing is made from crisco and
> >> confectioner's sugar. Scratch bakers who use good ingredients are
> >> few and far between, even among professionals. (Speaking of which, I
> >> watched Cake Boss for the first time at the gym on Friday, and their
> >> stuff looks like complete garbage: all shortening, no butter, and so
> >> on. What gives people the idea that that kind of crap is good?)

>
> > You really don't know what you're talking about when you say "most
> > bakeries...," *or "typical bakery icing," unless you've done a
> > scientifically large sampling, which you haven't. *You really
> > shouldn't generalize in that manner, because you would be wrong.

>
> > N.

>
> Technically you are correct, but...I *am in my fifties and have experienced
> many bakeries. I have a store amongst my clients which sells the products of
> 15 independent bakers (and I know what they use). I've participated for many
> years in online discussion groups with dozens of professional bakers. (I was
> naive enough at first to be shocked to discover that MOST of the wedding
> cake bakers use doctored mixes instead of scratch baking...) "Baker's icing"
> is a term of art, as they say, and believe me, it does not mean classic
> buttercream made with eggs, sugar, and butter: it means confectioner's sugar
> and vegetable shortening. The better bakers might add some butter.
>
> Sure, it's not a scientific study, but the good bakeries--as I personally
> define good, which means good ingredients--seem to be a tiny minority. The
> most commonly heard thing is that "butter is too expensive."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


The biggest problem is competition from supermarket bakeries. If a
supermarket loses money on its bakery goods it can make up the loss on
something else. A stand alone bakery can't do that. As far as butter
versus shortening goes, there are times when you want to use
shortening over butter. There are even times when lard is the
prefered choice.
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"Giusi" > wrote in message
...
>
> "sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>
>> I wondered if reducing the sugar will affect how the cake bakes up and
>> if there are any words of caution.

>
> It certainly will. It''s quite a bit of the bulk of a cake based on eggs.

But in such things as cookie recipes, I've found most to be faaaaaar too
sweet and usually cut the sugar content by as much as a half.
Graham




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On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:07:17 -0600, "graham" > wrote:
>
> "Giusi" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "sf" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> >
> >> I wondered if reducing the sugar will affect how the cake bakes up and
> >> if there are any words of caution.

> >
> > It certainly will. It''s quite a bit of the bulk of a cake based on eggs.

> But in such things as cookie recipes, I've found most to be faaaaaar too
> sweet and usually cut the sugar content by as much as a half.
> Graham
>

This one was supposedly Julia Child's recipe from Mastering the Art of
French cooking, but I didn't double check the book for accuracy (I
have the book) and it turns out to have an extra egg, so it was more
souffle-like than cake-like and fell when it cooled. I've only made
sponge cake once before (eons ago), but I know that one wasn't like
this one. At this point, I don't remember if I baked it in an angel
food cake pan and cooled it upside down or not - but if I attempt
again this any time soon, that's what I'll do. Other than that
problem, it tastes good and believe it or not - the cake wasn't overly
sweet.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
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