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"sf" > wrote in message
news
> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:18:25 -0700, "Kent" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> "sf" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 00:52:51 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have 2, 2 pound Kansas City Steakhouse Chateuabriand cuts from
>> >> Costco.
>> >> Really fine looking cuts of meat I must admit. How would you cook
>> >> them?
>> >> I
>> >> am thinking a nice sauce of some kind, perhaps brandy, cream and
>> >> peppercorn.
>> >> Not quite sure. Do I cut these into medallions or do I cook them
>> >> whole?
>> >> How would hey work as the base for steak au poivre?
>> >>
>> > I think if you cut them into thick steaks (I would), your pepper cream
>> > sauce would be fine, but I'd want to make bernaise
>> > http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/i...ipe/index.html!
>> >
>> > --

>> Sauce Béarnaise goes very well with filet. It's very, very rich. You just
>> need a small amount. We used to make it frequently when cholesterol
>> wasn't
>> an issue.
>> In this recipe, however, she says "1/4 cup champagne or 1/4 cup
>> vinegar"??
>> I'd search out a better recipe. There are lots.
>>

> The recipe tells you to choose between champagne vinegar or white wine
> vinegar. I have champagne vinegar on hand, so I'd use that.
>
>

I misread it.



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M. JL Esq. wrote:
> Mort wrote:
>> Kent wrote:
>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> See:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Blanc-233266
>>>> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Rouge-102839
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I saw both of those and don't agree with either. You have to find a
>>> valid
>>> source from France that substantiates what Christine is saying. I can't.
>>> I've looked at Raymond Oliver, Henri-Paul Pelliprat, Elizabeth David,
>>> two
>>> editions of the Larrouse, and I haven't found anything that ties
>>> "rouge" to
>>> red wine. I'm holding Escoffier in my hand as I write this.

>
> Page 33 of Le guide Culinaire?
>
> Red Colouring Butter
>
> "Remove any of the remaining flesh and particles from the outside and
> inside of any shellfish shells; dry the shells in a slow oven then pound
> them until fine.
>
> Add and mix in an equal quantity of butter, place this mixture in a bain
> marie pot and allow it to melt stirring frequently. Pass through a
> muslin held over a basin of ice cold water and when solidified place the
> resultant butter in a cloth and squeeze to remove the water.
>
> Note: if shellfish carcasses are not available to prepare this butter,
> paprika butter can be used instead. In any event, it is inadvisable to
> use artificial colourings fo the final colouring of sauces."
>
> I don't understand where the water came from to squeeze out but other
> wise it seems easy enough.
> --
> JL


That's not a Beurre-Rouge. Certainly not as it's known today. When you
order a Beurre-Rouge in France (or anywhere) you'll be served a red wine
reduction emulsified with butter.

How to Make Beurre Rouge
http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Mak...ouge-215137906

Let me ask you Escoffier worshipers a question. Where do you go to find
recipes (and definitions) that were developed after that fine work was
published in the year 1907 ? Or are you under the impression the entire
culinary world came to a stop a hundred years ago?

--
Mort
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Mort wrote:
> Kent wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>>
>>> See:
>>>
>>> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Blanc-233266
>>> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Rouge-102839
>>>
>>>

>> I saw both of those and don't agree with either. You have to find a valid
>> source from France that substantiates what Christine is saying. I can't.
>> I've looked at Raymond Oliver, Henri-Paul Pelliprat, Elizabeth David, two
>> editions of the Larrouse, and I haven't found anything that ties
>> "rouge" to
>> red wine. I'm holding Escoffier in my hand as I write this.


Page 33 of Le guide Culinaire?

Red Colouring Butter

"Remove any of the remaining flesh and particles from the outside and
inside of any shellfish shells; dry the shells in a slow oven then pound
them until fine.

Add and mix in an equal quantity of butter, place this mixture in a bain
marie pot and allow it to melt stirring frequently. Pass through a
muslin held over a basin of ice cold water and when solidified place
the resultant butter in a cloth and squeeze to remove the water.

Note: if shellfish carcasses are not available to prepare this butter,
paprika butter can be used instead. In any event, it is inadvisable to
use artificial colourings fo the final colouring of sauces."

I don't understand where the water came from to squeeze out but other
wise it seems easy enough.
--
JL
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M. JL Esq. wrote:

> Mort wrote:
>
>> Let me ask you Escoffier worshipers a question. Where do you go to find
>> recipes (and definitions) that were developed after that fine work was
>> published in the year 1907 ? Or are you under the impression the entire
>> culinary world came to a stop a hundred years ago?
>>

>
> Try rephrasing that without the sarcasm and you might get an answer.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question

--
Mort
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Mort wrote:

> Let me ask you Escoffier worshipers a question. Where do you go to find
> recipes (and definitions) that were developed after that fine work was
> published in the year 1907 ? Or are you under the impression the entire
> culinary world came to a stop a hundred years ago?
>


Try rephrasing that without the sarcasm and you might get an answer.
--
JL


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"M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
...
> Mort wrote:
>> Kent wrote:
>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> See:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Blanc-233266
>>>> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Rouge-102839
>>>>
>>> I saw both of those and don't agree with either. You have to find a
>>> valid
>>> source from France that substantiates what Christine is saying. I can't.
>>> I've looked at Raymond Oliver, Henri-Paul Pelliprat, Elizabeth David,
>>> two
>>> editions of the Larrouse, and I haven't found anything that ties "rouge"
>>> to
>>> red wine. I'm holding Escoffier in my hand as I write this.

>
> Page 33 of Le guide Culinaire?
>
> Red Colouring Butter
>
> "Remove any of the remaining flesh and particles from the outside and
> inside of any shellfish shells; dry the shells in a slow oven then pound
> them until fine.
>
> Add and mix in an equal quantity of butter, place this mixture in a bain
> marie pot and allow it to melt stirring frequently. Pass through a
> muslin held over a basin of ice cold water and when solidified place the
> resultant butter in a cloth and squeeze to remove the water.
>
> Note: if shellfish carcasses are not available to prepare this butter,
> paprika butter can be used instead. In any event, it is inadvisable to
> use artificial colourings fo the final colouring of sauces."
>
> I don't understand where the water came from to squeeze out but other wise
> it seems easy enough.
> --
> JL
>
>

Red Coloring Butter, listed also as Beurre Rouge on P. 33.

The recipe for beurre rouge is almost the same in the two editions of the
Larousse Gastronomique I have.

Kent





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"Mort" > wrote in message
...
> M. JL Esq. wrote:
>> Mort wrote:
>>> Kent wrote:
>>>
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> See:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Blanc-233266
>>>>> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Rouge-102839
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I saw both of those and don't agree with either. You have to find a
>>>> valid
>>>> source from France that substantiates what Christine is saying. I
>>>> can't.
>>>> I've looked at Raymond Oliver, Henri-Paul Pelliprat, Elizabeth David,
>>>> two
>>>> editions of the Larrouse, and I haven't found anything that ties
>>>> "rouge" to
>>>> red wine. I'm holding Escoffier in my hand as I write this.

>>
>> Page 33 of Le guide Culinaire?
>>
>> Red Colouring Butter
>>
>> "Remove any of the remaining flesh and particles from the outside and
>> inside of any shellfish shells; dry the shells in a slow oven then pound
>> them until fine.
>>
>> Add and mix in an equal quantity of butter, place this mixture in a bain
>> marie pot and allow it to melt stirring frequently. Pass through a
>> muslin held over a basin of ice cold water and when solidified place the
>> resultant butter in a cloth and squeeze to remove the water.
>>
>> Note: if shellfish carcasses are not available to prepare this butter,
>> paprika butter can be used instead. In any event, it is inadvisable to
>> use artificial colourings fo the final colouring of sauces."
>>
>> I don't understand where the water came from to squeeze out but other
>> wise it seems easy enough.
>> --
>> JL

>
> That's not a Beurre-Rouge. Certainly not as it's known today. When you
> order a Beurre-Rouge in France (or anywhere) you'll be served a red wine
> reduction emulsified with butter.
>
> How to Make Beurre Rouge
> http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Mak...ouge-215137906
>
> Let me ask you Escoffier worshipers a question. Where do you go to find
> recipes (and definitions) that were developed after that fine work was
> published in the year 1907 ? Or are you under the impression the entire
> culinary world came to a stop a hundred years ago?
>
> Mort
>
>

That's definition has remained unchanged to this day in classical French
cooking. That's how it's defined in my 1978 edition of the Larrouse.

Show us a respected French source that indicates beurre rouge as a red
rather than white butter sauce. What's on the internet written by non
credentialed sources doesn't mean anything.

Kent



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"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kent" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 03:45:53 -0700, "Kent" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Having said all of that, the Marchand de Vin sauce, which this is, is
>>>>just
>>>>too buttery. It overwhelms. It won't have enough beef flavor.
>>>
>>> No, this is not Marchand de Vins sauce. It is a mounted butter sauce,
>>> and butter is an important component. It is a Beurre Rouge, based on
>>> Beurre Blanc.
>>>
>>> It does have beef flavor. Did you read the instructions? It says to
>>> add the beef juice to it. And mounted butter sauces are NOT built on
>>> meat drippings...they are butter sauces.
>>>
>>> I suggest that you read more about sauces such as beurre blanc and
>>> Beurre rouge. It seems they are not within your knowledge that much,
>>> although they were within the knowledge of Julia Child and she adored
>>> them.
>>>
>>> Christine
>>> --
>>>

>> Beurre rouge, in the 1961 edition of the Larousse Gastronomique is
>> "lobster butter and butter mixed with other shellfish". That's verbatim.
>> The definition of beurre rouge in my later edition is very similar,
>> referring to shellfish.

>
> A quick Google shows a buerre rouge to be a red wine butter sauce suitable
> for pretty much anything including seafood. By common definieiton it is
> the same as a buerre blanc made only made with red wine and red wine
> vinegar. Like this one from Epicurious:
>
> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Rouge-102839
>
> Paul
>
>

Who wrote it? That means nothing. Butter-Red translates to French as
Beurre-Rouge.

We're talking about Sauce Beurre Blanc, recipies which try to emulsify
butter with water. That "water" includes white wine, red wine, pan
deglazing, stock, and anything else aqueous.

Kent



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"Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:33:33 -0700, "Kent" >
> wrote:
>
>>I think when you add anything beef to a beurre blanc it becomes a Marchind
>>de vin sauce, even though the author, somewhat inappropriately, added the
>>beef drippings after emulsifying the reduced wine/shallot mixture with
>>butter.
>>
>>Kent

>
> Wrong. Marchand de Vin is not a mounted butter sauce, regardless of
> the fact that you want it to be so. It isn't.
>
> Face it ...it is a different classification of sauce..and while you
> may not think it goes well with beef, there a lot of folks that are
> highly regarded, who do think so. Not every sauce for beef has to be
> based in beef drippings to be good or to go with beef. Sometimes a
> contrast is good.
>
> Christine
> --
> When the chef added beef pan drippings to a previously made beurre blanc
> he/she converts the sauce to a Marchand de Vin, even though a pretty
> marginal one.


Kent



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"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kent" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 12:26:54 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>I have 2, 2 pound Kansas City Steakhouse Chateuabriand cuts from
>>>>>>Costco.
>>>>>>Really fine looking cuts of meat I must admit. How would you cook
>>>>>>them?
>>>>>>I am thinking a nice sauce of some kind, perhaps brandy, cream and
>>>>>>peppercorn. Not quite sure. Do I cut these into medallions or do I
>>>>>>cook
>>>>>>them whole? How would hey work as the base for steak au poivre?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>
>>>>My mother sent it to me for my b-day. It was ordered online. Kansas
>>>>City
>>>>Steakhouse is the brand.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...rodid=11327407
>>>>
>>>>Paul
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know if you can adapt this to your needs, but this looks
>>> really good to me. I have had this on my list to make someday..
>>> This is from Eric Ripert, from his book Avec Eric.
>>>
>>> http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/44458
>>>
>>> Christine
>>> --
>>>

>> Christine, the recipe above for the sauce is a horrible recipe. Horrible
>> is an understatement.
>> . 1 cup dry red wine
>> . 1 cup red wine vinegar
>> . 1 shallot, thinly sliced
>> . 2 tablespoons whole black peppercorns
>> . 12 ounces cold unsalted butter, cut into pieces
>> One cup of red wine vinegar for two cups of sauce?? The only other liquid
>> ingredient is a cup of red wine? Sliced shallots???? 2 tablespoons of
>> peppercorns?? 12oz of butter??? Cold Butter?? Horrible is an
>> understatement.
>>

>
> I disagree. It looks just fine to me. It reminds me of sauces I've had
> in restaurants. You cook the sauce down and then strain it and begin
> mounting the butter. It's a classic sauce style. The vinegar "bite"
> would be greatly subdued after being cooked. And it is not like you
> smother the steak with the sauce. A little goes a long way. I'd probably
> make it in a half-batch.
>
>> For filet mignon you need to have a nice brown sauce. First you make the
>> liquid portion with beef stock some wine like madeira , and seasonings.
>> To that you can add finely minced sauteed shallots. Then you make and
>> thicken it with brown roux.
>> http://allrecipes.com//HowTo/making-roux/Detail.aspx . I wouldn't use
>> cornstarch, or a beurre manie
>> http://www.food.com/recipe/beurre-ma...ickener-117333 for
>> a dish this fancy. A strong no on plain butter as a thickener, even in
>> small amounts.

>
> I don't like roux based sauces. I much prefer pan style sauces that are
> thickened by coking down and butter and/or demi glace.
>
> Paul
>
>

If you've never had a roux based sauce you liked you've never had anything
prepared by someone who understands stocks and roux, and ingredients. Roux
based sauces are the foundation of French cooking, and for all good cooking.

Kent






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"Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:57:35 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
> wrote:
>
>>The acid and the butter would make an emulsion that is very silky. Kent
>>is
>>thinking of an espagnole sauce which is one of the 5 mother sauces. When
>>I
>>was experimenting with French cooking I used that sauce as a base for
>>roast
>>beef dishes. It's what Julia did, too.

>
> Julia details in her book, My Life in France, how she discovered
> Beurre Blanc and how she finally mastered it. I think it is in one of
> the volumes of Mastering, that recipe.
>
> Essentially, this is a Beurre Rouge. I read up a bit on it, and the
> cold butter is to keep the sauce from breaking.
>
> And you are right, it is very, very silky. A classic butter emulsion
> sauce, this time made with red wine.
>
> I might try this myself sometime soon. I do have a tritip in the
> freezer...maybe I will pull that out and make this sauce to go along
> with it. Don't have a tenderloin right now, but it should still be
> good with the tritip.
>
> Christine
> --
>

Your "I might try this myself" comment above suggests you haven't tried to
make a beurre blanc sauce, or at least have limited experience with it. Look
carefully at "Mastering the Art..Vol 1" If you can make it successfully it
only lasts for that single dish. Any leftover falls apart and is a waste.

If you do it with a sauteed tenderloin it's an absolute waste to not deglaze
the pan with either white or red wine, separate it from its fat and proceed
from there. To do so leaves the flavor behind. Tri-tip beef is too crude,
and its "beefy" taste really doesn't fit with the delicacy of a beurre blanc
sauce.

Finally, as we're both in the pre-geezer phase of life neither of us need
straight butter. It goes right to help the plaques developing on your
coronary arteries

Kent





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"Kent" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:57:35 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>The acid and the butter would make an emulsion that is very silky. Kent
>>>is
>>>thinking of an espagnole sauce which is one of the 5 mother sauces. When
>>>I
>>>was experimenting with French cooking I used that sauce as a base for
>>>roast
>>>beef dishes. It's what Julia did, too.

>>
>> Julia details in her book, My Life in France, how she discovered
>> Beurre Blanc and how she finally mastered it. I think it is in one of
>> the volumes of Mastering, that recipe.
>>
>> Essentially, this is a Beurre Rouge. I read up a bit on it, and the
>> cold butter is to keep the sauce from breaking.
>>
>> And you are right, it is very, very silky. A classic butter emulsion
>> sauce, this time made with red wine.
>>
>> I might try this myself sometime soon. I do have a tritip in the
>> freezer...maybe I will pull that out and make this sauce to go along
>> with it. Don't have a tenderloin right now, but it should still be
>> good with the tritip.
>>
>> Christine
>> --
>>

> Your "I might try this myself" comment above suggests you haven't tried to
> make a beurre blanc sauce, or at least have limited experience with it.
> Look carefully at "Mastering the Art..Vol 1" If you can make it
> successfully it only lasts for that single dish. Any leftover falls apart
> and is a waste.
>
> If you do it with a sauteed tenderloin it's an absolute waste to not
> deglaze the pan with either white or red wine, separate it from its fat
> and proceed from there. To do so leaves the flavor behind. Tri-tip beef is
> too crude, and its "beefy" taste really doesn't fit with the delicacy of a
> beurre blanc sauce.
>
> Finally, as we're both in the pre-geezer phase of life neither of us need
> straight butter. It goes right to help the plaques developing on your
> coronary arteries


Kent, I rarely take sides. However I am beginning to think you are kind of
crazy and at very least you have extremely poor reading comprehension. She
never advocated a beurre blanc for beef. You seem to have read it, somehow,
though. How can anyone have a conversation with somebody who is incapable
of even sticking to what the other side *writes* in their posts?

Yes, lay of the butter. It is rotting your brain.

Paul


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"Kent" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kent" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 03:45:53 -0700, "Kent" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Having said all of that, the Marchand de Vin sauce, which this is, is
>>>>>just
>>>>>too buttery. It overwhelms. It won't have enough beef flavor.
>>>>
>>>> No, this is not Marchand de Vins sauce. It is a mounted butter sauce,
>>>> and butter is an important component. It is a Beurre Rouge, based on
>>>> Beurre Blanc.
>>>>
>>>> It does have beef flavor. Did you read the instructions? It says to
>>>> add the beef juice to it. And mounted butter sauces are NOT built on
>>>> meat drippings...they are butter sauces.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest that you read more about sauces such as beurre blanc and
>>>> Beurre rouge. It seems they are not within your knowledge that much,
>>>> although they were within the knowledge of Julia Child and she adored
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> Christine
>>>> --
>>>>
>>> Beurre rouge, in the 1961 edition of the Larousse Gastronomique is
>>> "lobster butter and butter mixed with other shellfish". That's verbatim.
>>> The definition of beurre rouge in my later edition is very similar,
>>> referring to shellfish.

>>
>> A quick Google shows a buerre rouge to be a red wine butter sauce
>> suitable for pretty much anything including seafood. By common
>> definieiton it is the same as a buerre blanc made only made with red wine
>> and red wine vinegar. Like this one from Epicurious:
>>
>> http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...e-Rouge-102839
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>

> Who wrote it? That means nothing. Butter-Red translates to French as
> Beurre-Rouge.
>
> We're talking about Sauce Beurre Blanc, recipies which try to emulsify
> butter with water. That "water" includes white wine, red wine, pan
> deglazing, stock, and anything else aqueous.
>


Ya know Kent, after all this maybe I'll just grind the meat up and make
hamburger.

Paul


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On Mar 22, 7:55*am, Christine Dabney > wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 05:14:17 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
> wrote:
>
> >Ya know Kent, after all this maybe I'll just grind the meat up and make
> >hamburger.

>
> >Paul

>
> No, try the sauce. I am anxious to hear how it turns out. *
>
> I am done arguing this, since we are going in an endless circle and
> common sense isn't being used, among other things. * And among other
> things, this sauce wasn't really in common knowledge til after
> Escoffier, and even then it was a regional thing. *
>
> And none of us have any validity, since we aren't French.....


Replying to my own post.

One more article...about the sauce and variations...
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/oct.../fo-sauciere11

Christine
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"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kent" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:57:35 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The acid and the butter would make an emulsion that is very silky. Kent
>>>>is
>>>>thinking of an espagnole sauce which is one of the 5 mother sauces.
>>>>When I
>>>>was experimenting with French cooking I used that sauce as a base for
>>>>roast
>>>>beef dishes. It's what Julia did, too.
>>>
>>> Julia details in her book, My Life in France, how she discovered
>>> Beurre Blanc and how she finally mastered it. I think it is in one of
>>> the volumes of Mastering, that recipe.
>>>
>>> Essentially, this is a Beurre Rouge. I read up a bit on it, and the
>>> cold butter is to keep the sauce from breaking.
>>>
>>> And you are right, it is very, very silky. A classic butter emulsion
>>> sauce, this time made with red wine.
>>>
>>> I might try this myself sometime soon. I do have a tritip in the
>>> freezer...maybe I will pull that out and make this sauce to go along
>>> with it. Don't have a tenderloin right now, but it should still be
>>> good with the tritip.
>>>
>>> Christine
>>> --
>>>

>> Your "I might try this myself" comment above suggests you haven't tried
>> to make a beurre blanc sauce, or at least have limited experience with
>> it. Look carefully at "Mastering the Art..Vol 1" If you can make it
>> successfully it only lasts for that single dish. Any leftover falls apart
>> and is a waste.
>>
>> If you do it with a sauteed tenderloin it's an absolute waste to not
>> deglaze the pan with either white or red wine, separate it from its fat
>> and proceed from there. To do so leaves the flavor behind. Tri-tip beef
>> is too crude, and its "beefy" taste really doesn't fit with the delicacy
>> of a beurre blanc sauce.
>>
>> Finally, as we're both in the pre-geezer phase of life neither of us need
>> straight butter. It goes right to help the plaques developing on your
>> coronary arteries

>
> Kent, I rarely take sides. However I am beginning to think you are kind
> of crazy and at very least you have extremely poor reading comprehension.
> She never advocated a beurre blanc for beef. You seem to have read it,
> somehow, though. How can anyone have a conversation with somebody who is
> incapable of even sticking to what the other side *writes* in their posts?
>
> Yes, lay of the butter. It is rotting your brain.
>
> Paul
>

All of this is about definitions. For most, I think, beurre blanc is an
emulsion . That's a small amount of reduced liquid combined with cold bits
of butter to form a sauce.. That bit of liquid can be anything you want on
top of the meat made into a butter sauce, including white wine, red wine,
stock, and whatever.

There is no widely accepted specific name for the beurre blanc when the
liquid happens to be red wine. When the emulsion is created from steak pan
drippings and white wine, it's called Steak Bercy. When red wine is used to
reduce it's called Marchand de Vins. These are subcategories of beurre
blanc, or white butter sauce.

Kent





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On Mar 22, 9:46*am, "Kent" > wrote:
> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in ...
>
>
>
> > "Kent" > wrote in message
> ...

>
> >> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:57:35 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
> >>> wrote:

>
> >>>>The acid and the butter would make an emulsion that is very silky. *Kent
> >>>>is
> >>>>thinking of an espagnole sauce which is one of the 5 mother sauces.
> >>>>When I
> >>>>was experimenting with French cooking I used that sauce as a base for
> >>>>roast
> >>>>beef dishes. *It's what Julia did, too.

>
> >>> Julia details in her book, My Life in France, how she discovered
> >>> Beurre Blanc and how she finally mastered it. *I think it is in one of
> >>> the volumes of Mastering, that recipe.

>
> >>> Essentially, this is a Beurre Rouge. * I read up a bit on it, and the
> >>> cold butter is to keep the sauce from breaking.

>
> >>> And you are right, it is very, very silky. *A classic butter emulsion
> >>> sauce, this time made with red wine.

>
> >>> I might try this myself sometime soon. *I do have a tritip in the
> >>> freezer...maybe I will pull that out and make this sauce to go along
> >>> with it. * Don't have a tenderloin right now, but it should still be
> >>> good with the tritip.

>
> >>> Christine
> >>> --

>
> >> Your "I might try this myself" comment above suggests you haven't tried
> >> to make a beurre blanc sauce, or at least have limited experience with
> >> it. Look carefully at "Mastering the Art..Vol 1" If you can make it
> >> successfully it only lasts for that single dish. Any leftover falls apart
> >> and is a waste.

>
> >> If you do it with a sauteed tenderloin it's an absolute waste to not
> >> deglaze the pan with either white or red wine, separate it from its fat
> >> and proceed from there. To do so leaves the flavor behind. Tri-tip beef
> >> is too crude, and its "beefy" taste really doesn't fit with the delicacy
> >> of a beurre blanc sauce.

>
> >> Finally, as we're both in the pre-geezer phase of life neither of us need
> >> straight butter. It goes right to help the plaques developing on your
> >> coronary arteries

>
> > Kent, I rarely take sides. *However I am beginning to think you are kind
> > of crazy and at very least you have extremely poor reading comprehension.

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"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 12:26:54 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>I have 2, 2 pound Kansas City Steakhouse Chateuabriand cuts from
>>>>>Costco.
>>>>>Really fine looking cuts of meat I must admit. How would you cook
>>>>>them?
>>>>>I am thinking a nice sauce of some kind, perhaps brandy, cream and
>>>>>peppercorn. Not quite sure. Do I cut these into medallions or do I
>>>>>cook
>>>>>them whole? How would hey work as the base for steak au poivre?
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul

>>
>>>My mother sent it to me for my b-day. It was ordered online. Kansas
>>>City
>>>Steakhouse is the brand.
>>>
>>>http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...rodid=11327407
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>

>>
>> I don't know if you can adapt this to your needs, but this looks
>> really good to me. I have had this on my list to make someday..
>> This is from Eric Ripert, from his book Avec Eric.
>>
>> http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/44458
>>

>
> Looks fabbo. I'll definetly make one of the roasts using this recipe.
> Looks pretty easy. I'm going to do Alton Brown's steak au poivre with the
> other one. Asparagus and creamed garlic cauliflower for the vegies.
>
> Paul
>
>

Paul, I'd suggest browning the meat in the roasting pan on top of the stove
to give it a good surface char, and then placing it in the oven at a lower
temp, possibly 300F. This will promore slow even cooking from edge to edge
with less brown ring near the surface. Then rather than just pouring pan
drippings into the already created sauce I'd deglaze the pan with some red
wine and strain off the fat, to capture as much beef flavor as possible and
add that to the wine you've boiled down. Everything should be boiled down to
1/2 cup, as the recipe says.

Strain that to get rid of the shallots before you add any cold lumps of
butter. I think everything will work better if you add the strained pan
drippings to your sauce solution before whisking in the butter. I can't
imaging trying to strain shallot slices from the emulsified sauce without a
mess, and losing a fair amount of your sauce.

I know you probably won't do the above. This is just my 2 cents. That's what
this news group is all about. We're all doing what we think works best. That
is what is exciting about cooking.

Let us know how it turns out.

Best of Luck,

Kent



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"Kent" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kent" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 12:26:54 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>I have 2, 2 pound Kansas City Steakhouse Chateuabriand cuts from
>>>>>>>Costco.
>>>>>>>Really fine looking cuts of meat I must admit. How would you cook
>>>>>>>them?
>>>>>>>I am thinking a nice sauce of some kind, perhaps brandy, cream and
>>>>>>>peppercorn. Not quite sure. Do I cut these into medallions or do I
>>>>>>>cook
>>>>>>>them whole? How would hey work as the base for steak au poivre?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>>My mother sent it to me for my b-day. It was ordered online. Kansas
>>>>>City
>>>>>Steakhouse is the brand.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...rodid=11327407
>>>>>
>>>>>Paul
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if you can adapt this to your needs, but this looks
>>>> really good to me. I have had this on my list to make someday..
>>>> This is from Eric Ripert, from his book Avec Eric.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/44458
>>>>
>>>> Christine
>>>> --
>>>>
>>> Christine, the recipe above for the sauce is a horrible recipe. Horrible
>>> is an understatement.
>>> . 1 cup dry red wine
>>> . 1 cup red wine vinegar
>>> . 1 shallot, thinly sliced
>>> . 2 tablespoons whole black peppercorns
>>> . 12 ounces cold unsalted butter, cut into pieces
>>> One cup of red wine vinegar for two cups of sauce?? The only other
>>> liquid ingredient is a cup of red wine? Sliced shallots???? 2
>>> tablespoons of peppercorns?? 12oz of butter??? Cold Butter?? Horrible is
>>> an understatement.
>>>

>>
>> I disagree. It looks just fine to me. It reminds me of sauces I've had
>> in restaurants. You cook the sauce down and then strain it and begin
>> mounting the butter. It's a classic sauce style. The vinegar "bite"
>> would be greatly subdued after being cooked. And it is not like you
>> smother the steak with the sauce. A little goes a long way. I'd
>> probably make it in a half-batch.
>>
>>> For filet mignon you need to have a nice brown sauce. First you make the
>>> liquid portion with beef stock some wine like madeira , and seasonings.
>>> To that you can add finely minced sauteed shallots. Then you make and
>>> thicken it with brown roux.
>>> http://allrecipes.com//HowTo/making-roux/Detail.aspx . I wouldn't use
>>> cornstarch, or a beurre manie
>>> http://www.food.com/recipe/beurre-ma...ickener-117333 for
>>> a dish this fancy. A strong no on plain butter as a thickener, even in
>>> small amounts.

>>
>> I don't like roux based sauces. I much prefer pan style sauces that are
>> thickened by coking down and butter and/or demi glace.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>

> If you've never had a roux based sauce you liked you've never had anything
> prepared by someone who understands stocks and roux, and ingredients. Roux
> based sauces are the foundation of French cooking, and for all good
> cooking.
>
> Kent


See, there you go again with the reading comprehension/craziness. When did
I say I never had a roux based sauce? In fact I even wrote I used to cook
espagnole when I was experimenting with French cooking.

I'm leaning more toweards the latter on the diagnosis. I believe the
medical term is neural frontal calcification.

Paul


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Christine Dabney wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:29:23 -0700, >
> wrote:
>
>> Beurre blanc means taking a concentrated small volume
>> of liquid and beating small cubes of cold butter into it at a temp. of
>> 110-120F. The blanc means white butter.

>
> The blanc means white butter, but made with WHITE wine. Not made
> with white butter. Rouge refers to the red wine, it is made with red
> wine. How can it be beurre blanc (WHITE ) if it is made with red
> wine? The answer is rather obvious..it isn't pale like beurre blance.
> Use some common sense here....Red means rouge...and if you use red
> wine, it is not gonna be pale/white.


Forget it Christine. Lost cause.

What's amusing is the people who see themselves as so well informed
and consult Larousse and Escoffier at every turn would not know
such basic stuff. This is cooking 101 material. Ah, the irony.

--
Mort
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"Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 05:14:17 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Ya know Kent, after all this maybe I'll just grind the meat up and make
>>hamburger.
>>
>>Paul
>>

>
> No, try the sauce. I am anxious to hear how it turns out.


I'll be making it this weekend. I may offend the ghost of Escoffier but
screw him. Nobody cooks like that anymore. I mean come on, a half dozen
Maine lobsters to make sauce for 4 people? Very wasteful and that
symbolized a lot of the old French style.

Paul




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Paul M. Cook > wrote:

>Nobody cooks like that anymore. I mean come on, a half dozen
>Maine lobsters to make sauce for 4 people? Very wasteful and that
>symbolized a lot of the old French style.


Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
sauce that involved the shells.

Steve
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"Kent" > wrote in message
...
>
> "M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Kent wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Paul, I'd suggest browning the meat in the roasting pan on top of the
>>> stove to give it a good surface char, and then placing it in the oven at
>>> a lower

>>
>> One could also marinate the meat for 24 - 48 hours in either Madeira,
>> marsalla, port or even a good red burgundy, then, after browning on top
>> of the stove place in a pot just big enough to hold it and just cover
>> with the marinating wine and any extra stock or water necessary to just
>> cover the meat and braise it till done, replenishing liquid as necessary.
>> Braising on a bed of veggies (carrots, onions, celery etc.) is a good
>> addition and then filter the braising liquid, defat and serve au jus or
>> add a thickening agent such as a burrre manie
>> --
>> JL
>>
>>

> With filet mignon? You're obviously kidding. My suggestion was a change to
> the original recipe suggested by Christine.
> http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/44458


No he is not kidding. Wine marinated prime rib roast is a pretty damn good
dish. Just because Escoffier didn't come up with the idea does not make it
bad.

Kent, you seem like quite a dilettante to me. You have committed a couple
of French cookbooks from 1900 to memory and now you profess to know all.
And you scoff at anything not on those blessed pages. Do you actually cook?
I suspect not.

Dilettante.

Paul


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"Steve Pope" > wrote in message
...
> Paul M. Cook > wrote:
>
>>Nobody cooks like that anymore. I mean come on, a half dozen
>>Maine lobsters to make sauce for 4 people? Very wasteful and that
>>symbolized a lot of the old French style.

>
> Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
> sauce that involved the shells.


Entire lobsters pulverized and pressed through a chinoise. They were just
after the essence of the lobster, not the meat. Back then lobsters were
just emerging from their previous stint as slave food in the South so nobody
cared much. A lot of French cuisine of old was often very wasteful and
extravagant, especially sauces. The peasants never cooked like that. Just
the gentry.

Paul


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"M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
...
> Steve Pope wrote:
>> Paul M. Cook > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Nobody cooks like that anymore. I mean come on, a half dozen
>>>Maine lobsters to make sauce for 4 people? Very wasteful and that
>>>symbolized a lot of the old French style.

>>
>>
>> Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
>> sauce that involved the shells.
>>
>> Steve

>
> There is also an edition of his book for the home cook where in the
> amounts are modified for the home cook.
>
> The market for cook books was different when it was first published than
> it is now. But it is still in print.
>
> The original was written for the trade. And in amounts more common to
> commercial establishments or large households with kitchen staff. The man
> was a military veteran, and a working chef for the rest of his
> professional life, head Chef of several of the best hotels of his day and
> iirc responsible for setting up the original kitchens at the Waldorf
> Astoria in NYC.
>
> Anyone familiar with August Escoffier's work knows he decries waste and
> excess as much as he demands absolute freshness in all his ingredients.


His definition of waste would not be the one we recognize today.

> His text does contain some historical curiosities where in he starts the
> recipe with words to the effect that "this recipe is rarely produced today
> although it was quite common in days gone by"
>
> And in his section home made liquors he adds "which is to be much
> regretted" .... that people don't make these home made liquors any more
> (circa 1921 c.e.)


By waste he meant food that was left to spoil. He did not consider a
sumptuous feast of ingredients that could feed an entire family of 12 just
to make a sauce for 2 to be a waste. Now it those ingredients spoiled, that
was a waste. He cooked for the wealthy who demanded sumptuous and
extravagant dishes. No expense was spared to that end. Waste as in 20
pounds of seafood to make a soup for a table of 4 or a whole 100 pound sea
turtle for soup for the same table was not an offense to their standards.
Back then there was ample supply and ample money. Waste had a whole
different definition.

Paul


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Paul M. Cook > wrote:

>"Steve Pope" > wrote in message


>> Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
>> sauce that involved the shells.


>Entire lobsters pulverized and pressed through a chinoise. They were just
>after the essence of the lobster, not the meat. Back then lobsters were
>just emerging from their previous stint as slave food in the South so nobody
>cared much. A lot of French cuisine of old was often very wasteful and
>extravagant, especially sauces. The peasants never cooked like that. Just
>the gentry.


Thanks. I'm not sure I'll ever investigate such a sauce. ;-)


Steve


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"Steve Pope" > wrote in message
...
> Paul M. Cook > wrote:
>
>>"Steve Pope" > wrote in message

>
>>> Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
>>> sauce that involved the shells.

>
>>Entire lobsters pulverized and pressed through a chinoise. They were just
>>after the essence of the lobster, not the meat. Back then lobsters were
>>just emerging from their previous stint as slave food in the South so
>>nobody
>>cared much. A lot of French cuisine of old was often very wasteful and
>>extravagant, especially sauces. The peasants never cooked like that.
>>Just
>>the gentry.

>
> Thanks. I'm not sure I'll ever investigate such a sauce. ;-)


Me either but you can bet your boots it was probably the most incredible
culinary experience.

Paul


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"Kent" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kent" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:57:35 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The acid and the butter would make an emulsion that is very silky.
>>>>>Kent is
>>>>>thinking of an espagnole sauce which is one of the 5 mother sauces.
>>>>>When I
>>>>>was experimenting with French cooking I used that sauce as a base for
>>>>>roast
>>>>>beef dishes. It's what Julia did, too.
>>>>
>>>> Julia details in her book, My Life in France, how she discovered
>>>> Beurre Blanc and how she finally mastered it. I think it is in one of
>>>> the volumes of Mastering, that recipe.
>>>>
>>>> Essentially, this is a Beurre Rouge. I read up a bit on it, and the
>>>> cold butter is to keep the sauce from breaking.
>>>>
>>>> And you are right, it is very, very silky. A classic butter emulsion
>>>> sauce, this time made with red wine.
>>>>
>>>> I might try this myself sometime soon. I do have a tritip in the
>>>> freezer...maybe I will pull that out and make this sauce to go along
>>>> with it. Don't have a tenderloin right now, but it should still be
>>>> good with the tritip.
>>>>
>>>> Christine
>>>> --
>>>>
>>> Your "I might try this myself" comment above suggests you haven't tried
>>> to make a beurre blanc sauce, or at least have limited experience with
>>> it. Look carefully at "Mastering the Art..Vol 1" If you can make it
>>> successfully it only lasts for that single dish. Any leftover falls
>>> apart and is a waste.
>>>
>>> If you do it with a sauteed tenderloin it's an absolute waste to not
>>> deglaze the pan with either white or red wine, separate it from its fat
>>> and proceed from there. To do so leaves the flavor behind. Tri-tip beef
>>> is too crude, and its "beefy" taste really doesn't fit with the delicacy
>>> of a beurre blanc sauce.
>>>
>>> Finally, as we're both in the pre-geezer phase of life neither of us
>>> need straight butter. It goes right to help the plaques developing on
>>> your coronary arteries

>>
>> Kent, I rarely take sides. However I am beginning to think you are kind
>> of crazy and at very least you have extremely poor reading comprehension.
>> She never advocated a beurre blanc for beef. You seem to have read it,
>> somehow, though. How can anyone have a conversation with somebody who is
>> incapable of even sticking to what the other side *writes* in their
>> posts?
>>
>> Yes, lay of the butter. It is rotting your brain.
>>
>> Paul
>>

> All of this is about definitions. For most, I think, beurre blanc is an
> emulsion . That's a small amount of reduced liquid combined with cold bits
> of butter to form a sauce.. That bit of liquid can be anything you want on
> top of the meat made into a butter sauce, including white wine, red wine,
> stock, and whatever.


No. You don't understand the roll that acid plays in changing the proteins
in the butter. Alton Brown showed how acid allows the emulsifying agents to
become more incorporated with fat yeilding a more silky texture. Without
the acid you'd never have the texture you desire. It would be more grainy
and unincorporated. And you proved you don't know this because you
completely rejected the entire sauce recipe Christine posted simply because
it had vinegar in it. You seemed to think it would taste like a
vinaigrette. That recipe was a pretty classic beurre blanc sauce made with
red wine and red wine vinegar.

>
> There is no widely accepted specific name for the beurre blanc when the
> liquid happens to be red wine. When the emulsion is created from steak pan
> drippings and white wine, it's called Steak Bercy. When red wine is used
> to reduce it's called Marchand de Vins. These are subcategories of beurre
> blanc, or white butter sauce.


There really is. Maybe it is more modern than 1920 but there is a
definition.

Paul


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Steve Pope wrote:
> Paul M. Cook > wrote:
>
>
>>Nobody cooks like that anymore. I mean come on, a half dozen
>>Maine lobsters to make sauce for 4 people? Very wasteful and that
>>symbolized a lot of the old French style.

>
>
> Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
> sauce that involved the shells.
>
> Steve


There is also an edition of his book for the home cook where in the
amounts are modified for the home cook.

The market for cook books was different when it was first published than
it is now. But it is still in print.

The original was written for the trade. And in amounts more common to
commercial establishments or large households with kitchen staff. The
man was a military veteran, and a working chef for the rest of his
professional life, head Chef of several of the best hotels of his day
and iirc responsible for setting up the original kitchens at the Waldorf
Astoria in NYC.

Anyone familiar with August Escoffier's work knows he decries waste and
excess as much as he demands absolute freshness in all his ingredients.

His text does contain some historical curiosities where in he starts the
recipe with words to the effect that "this recipe is rarely produced
today although it was quite common in days gone by"

And in his section home made liquors he adds "which is to be much
regretted" .... that people don't make these home made liquors any more
(circa 1921 c.e.)
--
JL
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"M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
...
> Paul M. Cook wrote:
>
>> "M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Steve Pope wrote:
>>>
>>>>Paul M. Cook > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Nobody cooks like that anymore. I mean come on, a half dozen
>>>>>Maine lobsters to make sauce for 4 people? Very wasteful and that
>>>>>symbolized a lot of the old French style.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
>>>>sauce that involved the shells.
>>>>
>>>>Steve
>>>
>>>There is also an edition of his book for the home cook where in the
>>>amounts are modified for the home cook.
>>>
>>>The market for cook books was different when it was first published than
>>>it is now. But it is still in print.
>>>
>>>The original was written for the trade. And in amounts more common to
>>>commercial establishments or large households with kitchen staff. The
>>>man was a military veteran, and a working chef for the rest of his
>>>professional life, head Chef of several of the best hotels of his day and
>>>iirc responsible for setting up the original kitchens at the Waldorf
>>>Astoria in NYC.
>>>
>>>Anyone familiar with August Escoffier's work knows he decries waste and
>>>excess as much as he demands absolute freshness in all his ingredients.

>>
>>
>> His definition of waste would not be the one we recognize today.
>>
>>
>>>His text does contain some historical curiosities where in he starts the
>>>recipe with words to the effect that "this recipe is rarely produced
>>>today although it was quite common in days gone by"
>>>
>>>And in his section home made liquors he adds "which is to be much
>>>regretted" .... that people don't make these home made liquors any more
>>>(circa 1921 c.e.)

>>
>>
>> By waste he meant food that was left to spoil. He did not consider a
>> sumptuous feast of ingredients that could feed an entire family of 12
>> just to make a sauce for 2 to be a waste. Now it those ingredients
>> spoiled, that was a waste. He cooked for the wealthy who demanded
>> sumptuous and extravagant dishes. No expense was spared to that end.
>> Waste as in 20 pounds of seafood to make a soup for a table of 4 or a
>> whole 100 pound sea turtle for soup for the same table was not an offense
>> to their standards. Back then there was ample supply and ample money.
>> Waste had a whole different definition.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>

>
> But i defy you to find a recipe calling for such things in his works.
>
> In his auto biography he repeats an Careme anecdote about reducing several
> oxen, turkey and hams to a thimble full of essence but in his published
> Guide Culinaire remarks about essences: it is far better to add the
> product itself to the stock during its preparation rather than to prepare
> a special essences.
>
> He decries making a special good/strong essence to improve poor quality
> food, as was commonly done by chefs of his day. "therefore it is judged
> unnecessary to give more than one example of a recipe."
>
> he does give recipes for espangnole and various stocks that can use
> upwards of 10 pounds of meats and bones but those can easily be halved as
> he knew or at least hoped, many small resturanterurs if not aspiring chefs
> would be purchasing his book. He gives recipes using 6 - 7 pounds of beef
> in a particular stew, some recipes for some large fish, turkey and capons,
> as well as mutton and whole pigs, venison & etc. but even more do he give
> recipes for individual servings of meats, and his portions for soups vary
> from 5 - 10 cups. His salads don't give much advice on amounts except for
> "take equal quantities of" in the rest its use as much as you need with
> some slight variations according to type of vegetable.
> --



As I recall 5-10 cups was about the yield for his turtle soup which required
an entire live sea turtle. I sure don't have the recipe handy, no. Is it
wasteful to kill a sea turtle for a few bowls of soup? In my view it is an
obscenity. I also seem to remember his recipe for chicken soup which was
essentially 20 chickens cooked down to 1 quart of base which made about a
gallon of soup. People were starving to death back then.

Was the soup(s) good? They were probably to die for. I am sure of that.

Paul


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Paul M. Cook wrote:

> "M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Steve Pope wrote:
>>
>>>Paul M. Cook > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Nobody cooks like that anymore. I mean come on, a half dozen
>>>>Maine lobsters to make sauce for 4 people? Very wasteful and that
>>>>symbolized a lot of the old French style.
>>>
>>>
>>>Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
>>>sauce that involved the shells.
>>>
>>>Steve

>>
>>There is also an edition of his book for the home cook where in the
>>amounts are modified for the home cook.
>>
>>The market for cook books was different when it was first published than
>>it is now. But it is still in print.
>>
>>The original was written for the trade. And in amounts more common to
>>commercial establishments or large households with kitchen staff. The man
>>was a military veteran, and a working chef for the rest of his
>>professional life, head Chef of several of the best hotels of his day and
>>iirc responsible for setting up the original kitchens at the Waldorf
>>Astoria in NYC.
>>
>>Anyone familiar with August Escoffier's work knows he decries waste and
>>excess as much as he demands absolute freshness in all his ingredients.

>
>
> His definition of waste would not be the one we recognize today.
>
>
>>His text does contain some historical curiosities where in he starts the
>>recipe with words to the effect that "this recipe is rarely produced today
>>although it was quite common in days gone by"
>>
>>And in his section home made liquors he adds "which is to be much
>>regretted" .... that people don't make these home made liquors any more
>>(circa 1921 c.e.)

>
>
> By waste he meant food that was left to spoil. He did not consider a
> sumptuous feast of ingredients that could feed an entire family of 12 just
> to make a sauce for 2 to be a waste. Now it those ingredients spoiled, that
> was a waste. He cooked for the wealthy who demanded sumptuous and
> extravagant dishes. No expense was spared to that end. Waste as in 20
> pounds of seafood to make a soup for a table of 4 or a whole 100 pound sea
> turtle for soup for the same table was not an offense to their standards.
> Back then there was ample supply and ample money. Waste had a whole
> different definition.
>
> Paul
>
>


But i defy you to find a recipe calling for such things in his works.

In his auto biography he repeats an Careme anecdote about reducing
several oxen, turkey and hams to a thimble full of essence but in his
published Guide Culinaire remarks about essences: it is far better to
add the product itself to the stock during its preparation rather than
to prepare a special essences.

He decries making a special good/strong essence to improve poor quality
food, as was commonly done by chefs of his day. "therefore it is
judged unnecessary to give more than one example of a recipe."

he does give recipes for espangnole and various stocks that can use
upwards of 10 pounds of meats and bones but those can easily be halved
as he knew or at least hoped, many small resturanterurs if not aspiring
chefs would be purchasing his book. He gives recipes using 6 - 7 pounds
of beef in a particular stew, some recipes for some large fish, turkey
and capons, as well as mutton and whole pigs, venison & etc. but even
more do he give recipes for individual servings of meats, and his
portions for soups vary from 5 - 10 cups. His salads don't give much
advice on amounts except for "take equal quantities of" in the rest its
use as much as you need with some slight variations according to type of
vegetable.
--
JL
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Paul M. Cook wrote:
> "M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Steve Pope wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Paul M. Cook > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Nobody cooks like that anymore. I mean come on, a half dozen
>>>>>>Maine lobsters to make sauce for 4 people? Very wasteful and that
>>>>>>symbolized a lot of the old French style.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
>>>>>sauce that involved the shells.
>>>>>
>>>>>Steve
>>>>
>>>>There is also an edition of his book for the home cook where in the
>>>>amounts are modified for the home cook.
>>>>
>>>>The market for cook books was different when it was first published than
>>>>it is now. But it is still in print.
>>>>
>>>>The original was written for the trade. And in amounts more common to
>>>>commercial establishments or large households with kitchen staff. The
>>>>man was a military veteran, and a working chef for the rest of his
>>>>professional life, head Chef of several of the best hotels of his day and
>>>>iirc responsible for setting up the original kitchens at the Waldorf
>>>>Astoria in NYC.
>>>>
>>>>Anyone familiar with August Escoffier's work knows he decries waste and
>>>>excess as much as he demands absolute freshness in all his ingredients.
>>>
>>>
>>>His definition of waste would not be the one we recognize today.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>His text does contain some historical curiosities where in he starts the
>>>>recipe with words to the effect that "this recipe is rarely produced
>>>>today although it was quite common in days gone by"
>>>>
>>>>And in his section home made liquors he adds "which is to be much
>>>>regretted" .... that people don't make these home made liquors any more
>>>>(circa 1921 c.e.)
>>>
>>>
>>>By waste he meant food that was left to spoil. He did not consider a
>>>sumptuous feast of ingredients that could feed an entire family of 12
>>>just to make a sauce for 2 to be a waste. Now it those ingredients
>>>spoiled, that was a waste. He cooked for the wealthy who demanded
>>>sumptuous and extravagant dishes. No expense was spared to that end.
>>>Waste as in 20 pounds of seafood to make a soup for a table of 4 or a
>>>whole 100 pound sea turtle for soup for the same table was not an offense
>>>to their standards. Back then there was ample supply and ample money.
>>>Waste had a whole different definition.
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>>>

>>
>>But i defy you to find a recipe calling for such things in his works.
>>
>>In his auto biography he repeats an Careme anecdote about reducing several
>>oxen, turkey and hams to a thimble full of essence but in his published
>>Guide Culinaire remarks about essences: it is far better to add the
>>product itself to the stock during its preparation rather than to prepare
>>a special essences.
>>
>>He decries making a special good/strong essence to improve poor quality
>>food, as was commonly done by chefs of his day. "therefore it is judged
>>unnecessary to give more than one example of a recipe."
>>
>>he does give recipes for espangnole and various stocks that can use
>>upwards of 10 pounds of meats and bones but those can easily be halved as
>>he knew or at least hoped, many small resturanterurs if not aspiring chefs
>>would be purchasing his book. He gives recipes using 6 - 7 pounds of beef
>>in a particular stew, some recipes for some large fish, turkey and capons,
>>as well as mutton and whole pigs, venison & etc. but even more do he give
>>recipes for individual servings of meats, and his portions for soups vary
>>from 5 - 10 cups. His salads don't give much advice on amounts except for
>>"take equal quantities of" in the rest its use as much as you need with
>>some slight variations according to type of vegetable.
>>--

>
>
>
> As I recall 5-10 cups was about the yield for his turtle soup which required
> an entire live sea turtle. I sure don't have the recipe handy, no. Is it
> wasteful to kill a sea turtle for a few bowls of soup? In my view it is an
> obscenity. I also seem to remember his recipe for chicken soup which was
> essentially 20 chickens cooked down to 1 quart of base which made about a
> gallon of soup. People were starving to death back then.
>
> Was the soup(s) good? They were probably to die for. I am sure of that.
>
> Paul
>
>


People are starving to death to day.

I saw a comedienne on t.v. last nigh, she had been entertaining the
troops in Afghanistan and one of the military officers there was telling
her how they had built thousands of miles of roads, 20 schools, a dozen
hospitals & such and she replied, "great, when your finished here how
about we go to Detroit?" or one might say east L.A. or various other
parts of Americas great inner city slums.

Plus there here have been a number of translations, some better than others.

I don't recall ever seeing a recipe of his calling for 20 chickens,
several pounds of larks tongue for aspic and several pounds of rose
petals to make ice cream with but other than that, he wrote the Guide to
be used by middle class establishments and cooks. He was less of an
elitist than he has a reputation for, at the worst he was very good and
successful at what he did.

And the idea that an admiration of his life's work is anything other
than just that is just looking for an excuse to argue argue about it.

One of my favourite American cook books is by a student of Escoffier,
Louis de Gouy, who wrote "The Gold Cook Book" (1947) and was head chef
of the Waldor Astoria for many years. He made a special study of
traditional american foods, went to great lengths to track down
authentic regionalisms.
--
JL
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sf wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 05:48:45 +0000 (UTC),
> (Steve Pope) wrote:
>
>
>>Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
>>sauce that involved the shells.

>
>
> Lobster sauce used to mean only the shells were used. Maybe the
> modern version requires and entire lobster. I dunno and I won't be
> making it so I don't care.
>


Lobster soup is one thing, lobster sauce i can only find as "Sauce
Newburg" in the Guide Culinaire, made with raw or cooked lobster, which
he states are made & served in the same way as sauce American as in
Homard a l' Americaine

Various internal roe, coral & etc. are mixed with butter to be used to
finish the sauce.

The primary distinction being whether the lobster meat is served in the
sauce or the sauted lobster meat used as a garnish with other fish or
food and then sauced.

A favourite Escoffier is #2111 Homard a la Brouche but i have never been
able to absolutely pin down what "Derby Sauce" is. And i have googled it

So i know about the commercial (bottled) sauce routinely compared to
Worcestershire sauce. Once source suggesting "Derby Sauce: A cream,
horseradish, mustard, vinegar & seasoned sauce iirc. Though i think
there might be a commercially available product, ..."

I cant find it for sale with google, but that might only mean i don't
know how to shop on the internet

I tried googling Harrods and all i got was bags & shoes and a more
dedicated search of british food sites didn't turn up anything either.

I have seen other cook books where the author had a proprietary
ingredient available commercially that was included in the recipes.

But as far as i can recall, this homard a la brouche is the only
instance of it being called for in Escoffiers guide culinaire.

Plenty of other exotic ingredients in so far as im not sending of to
Rouen for a duckling

Or Strasbourg for pate

& etc.

Although i did run across some chocolate eggs at Harrod's and a tartar
sauce that looked interesting
--
JL

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"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kent" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Kent wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul, I'd suggest browning the meat in the roasting pan on top of the
>>>> stove to give it a good surface char, and then placing it in the oven
>>>> at a lower
>>>
>>> One could also marinate the meat for 24 - 48 hours in either Madeira,
>>> marsalla, port or even a good red burgundy, then, after browning on top
>>> of the stove place in a pot just big enough to hold it and just cover
>>> with the marinating wine and any extra stock or water necessary to just
>>> cover the meat and braise it till done, replenishing liquid as
>>> necessary. Braising on a bed of veggies (carrots, onions, celery etc.)
>>> is a good addition and then filter the braising liquid, defat and serve
>>> au jus or add a thickening agent such as a burrre manie
>>> --
>>> JL
>>>
>>>

>> With filet mignon? You're obviously kidding. My suggestion was a change
>> to the original recipe suggested by Christine.
>> http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/44458

>
> No he is not kidding. Wine marinated prime rib roast is a pretty damn
> good dish. Just because Escoffier didn't come up with the idea does not
> make it bad.
>
> Kent, you seem like quite a dilettante to me. You have committed a couple
> of French cookbooks from 1900 to memory and now you profess to know all.
> And you scoff at anything not on those blessed pages. Do you actually
> cook? I suspect not.
>
> Dilettante.
>
> Paul
>

Paul, I, and my wife, have cooked a lot, for many years. Now that I'm
retired that occupies most of the day for both of us.
I have an idea for a Chateaubriand like yours that I'm going to try.

Brown it in a roasting pan over high heat. Remove from heat and rest it.
Thoroughly deglaze the pan with wine. Pour that off and save for sauce as
has been discussed in chef Eric Ripert's recipe. Then put browned meat into
a one gallon double ziploc bag with very small amount of the deglazing
liquid. Suck all the air out of the ziploc bag and seal. The polyethylene
should firmly cover the meat and liquid. There should be no air. Then the
bagged meat goes into a water bath at about 150F, and sits there until the
meat temp is about 130F. I'm going to use a ceramic crockpot on warm, which
hits about 150F. This all should give you a good char, with edge to edge
rare meat, with muscle breakdown because of the slow cooking.

As you probably well know this is the rage in restaurants these days, and is
called sous vide, or "under vacuum". By doing the above, a lot of money is
saved on equipment you're only going to periodically use. I had a good talk
today with an engineering person at the Johnson Co., makers of Ziploc. They
say ziploc will tolerate safely this type of cooking without breakdown of
the polyethylene, as long as you don't cook above 235F, where it breaks
down. Even when and if it breaks down, it doesn't create a health hazard,
only overcooked dry meat.

To answer your cooking question, we've always been very interested in food
and have cooked in earnest for many years. I have several times bought 100lb
of veal and beef trimmings to make brown stock, then reduced it to
espagnole, and to demiglace.

That alone, obviously, doesn't make you a "chef". However we've traveled and
dined throughout France, the rest of Europe. and Asia. We've managed to dine
in about 15 Michelin 3 star restaurants. At that time all Michelin
Restaurants were in France, save for one in Belgium. When you get home, we
have somewhat naively tried to duplicate what we ate overseas. We have about
300 cookbooks to read while trying to get to sleep and in the kitchen while
hovering over the stove.

We both love to cook. Obviously you do too. Regardless of what you read into
my rhetoric, I greatly enjoy this NG and learn from it. Cooking is all about
common sense and trying to do something better that what's on paper.

Cheers,

Kent


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"Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 03:45:53 -0700, "Kent" >
> wrote:
>
>>Straining a butter emulsified sauce, as in his recipe, is no bargain and
>>quite wasteful . You lose a lot. One might say straining the sauce with
>>the
>>butter added removes its water, or aqueous component, which clouds
>>everything up a bit. I've tried making the recipe with clarified butter
>>for
>>that reason.

>
>
> You have got this all backwards. This is NOT a Marchand de Vins
> sauce. You don't strain it after the butter is added. I am getting
> the impression very strongly that you have no knowledge of mounted
> butter sauces, such as beurre blanc. They are totally different than
> what you are talking about. Stop relating it to the sauces you know
> already, this is obviously one you have little familiarity with.
>
> You strain it once the wine and vinegar are reduced. THEN, and only
> then do you started emulisifying the butter into the sauce. The
> butter has to be cold, cause the sauce will break if it isn't.
>
> And butter sauces such as this are not built on the roasting juices.
> They are built on a reduction of wine and vinegar, and then emulsified
> with butter.
>
> These are mainstay sauces in cuisine now. Yes, this started in
> France, before Julia Child came along. Look in one of her volumes of
> Mastering: beurre blanc should be in there. The difference between
> this sauce and beurre blanc is that red wine and vinegar are used
> instead of white wine and vinegar.
>
> Christine
> --
>

Christine, look at #4 in Ripert's recipe:
"4. While the tenderloin is roasting, finish the sauce by gradually whisking
the cold butter into the warm sauce until it is fully emulsified. Strain the
sauce through a fine-mesh sieve into a small saucepan. Season the sauce to
taste with salt and pepper; keep warm."

He whisks cold lumps of butter into his reduced wine/shallot stock, and then
strains. He can't be whisking more butter into a sauce he's already created.
He has to be whisking into his wine reduction and then straining.

Kent








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"Kent" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kent" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Kent wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul, I'd suggest browning the meat in the roasting pan on top of the
>>>>> stove to give it a good surface char, and then placing it in the oven
>>>>> at a lower
>>>>
>>>> One could also marinate the meat for 24 - 48 hours in either Madeira,
>>>> marsalla, port or even a good red burgundy, then, after browning on
>>>> top of the stove place in a pot just big enough to hold it and just
>>>> cover with the marinating wine and any extra stock or water necessary
>>>> to just cover the meat and braise it till done, replenishing liquid as
>>>> necessary. Braising on a bed of veggies (carrots, onions, celery etc.)
>>>> is a good addition and then filter the braising liquid, defat and serve
>>>> au jus or add a thickening agent such as a burrre manie
>>>> --
>>>> JL
>>>>
>>>>
>>> With filet mignon? You're obviously kidding. My suggestion was a change
>>> to the original recipe suggested by Christine.
>>> http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/44458

>>
>> No he is not kidding. Wine marinated prime rib roast is a pretty damn
>> good dish. Just because Escoffier didn't come up with the idea does not
>> make it bad.
>>
>> Kent, you seem like quite a dilettante to me. You have committed a
>> couple of French cookbooks from 1900 to memory and now you profess to
>> know all. And you scoff at anything not on those blessed pages. Do you
>> actually cook? I suspect not.
>>
>> Dilettante.
>>
>> Paul
>>

> Paul, I, and my wife, have cooked a lot, for many years. Now that I'm
> retired that occupies most of the day for both of us.
> I have an idea for a Chateaubriand like yours that I'm going to try.
>
> Brown it in a roasting pan over high heat. Remove from heat and rest it.
> Thoroughly deglaze the pan with wine. Pour that off and save for sauce as
> has been discussed in chef Eric Ripert's recipe. Then put browned meat
> into a one gallon double ziploc bag with very small amount of the
> deglazing liquid. Suck all the air out of the ziploc bag and seal. The
> polyethylene should firmly cover the meat and liquid. There should be no
> air. Then the bagged meat goes into a water bath at about 150F, and sits
> there until the meat temp is about 130F. I'm going to use a ceramic
> crockpot on warm, which hits about 150F. This all should give you a good
> char, with edge to edge rare meat, with muscle breakdown because of the
> slow cooking.
>
> As you probably well know this is the rage in restaurants these days, and
> is called sous vide, or "under vacuum". By doing the above, a lot of money
> is saved on equipment you're only going to periodically use. I had a good
> talk today with an engineering person at the Johnson Co., makers of
> Ziploc. They say ziploc will tolerate safely this type of cooking without
> breakdown of the polyethylene, as long as you don't cook above 235F, where
> it breaks down. Even when and if it breaks down, it doesn't create a
> health hazard, only overcooked dry meat.
>
> To answer your cooking question, we've always been very interested in food
> and have cooked in earnest for many years. I have several times bought
> 100lb of veal and beef trimmings to make brown stock, then reduced it to
> espagnole, and to demiglace.
>
> That alone, obviously, doesn't make you a "chef". However we've traveled
> and dined throughout France, the rest of Europe. and Asia. We've managed
> to dine in about 15 Michelin 3 star restaurants. At that time all Michelin
> Restaurants were in France, save for one in Belgium. When you get home, we
> have somewhat naively tried to duplicate what we ate overseas. We have
> about 300 cookbooks to read while trying to get to sleep and in the
> kitchen while hovering over the stove.
>
> We both love to cook. Obviously you do too. Regardless of what you read
> into my rhetoric, I greatly enjoy this NG and learn from it. Cooking is
> all about common sense and trying to do something better that what's on
> paper.



That's all good. But Escoffier et al were not the *last* word on French
cooking, just one of the originals. Just because a recipe or a procedure is
not enshrined in one of their tomes does not mean it is not "French." And
things do change over the centuries, like techniques for sauces.

It's all good.

Paul


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"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve Pope" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Paul M. Cook > wrote:
>>
>>>"Steve Pope" > wrote in message

>>
>>>> Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
>>>> sauce that involved the shells.

>>
>>>Entire lobsters pulverized and pressed through a chinoise. They were
>>>just
>>>after the essence of the lobster, not the meat. Back then lobsters were
>>>just emerging from their previous stint as slave food in the South so
>>>nobody
>>>cared much. A lot of French cuisine of old was often very wasteful and
>>>extravagant, especially sauces. The peasants never cooked like that.
>>>Just
>>>the gentry.

>>
>> Thanks. I'm not sure I'll ever investigate such a sauce. ;-)

>
> Me either but you can bet your boots it was probably the most incredible
> culinary experience.
>
> Paul
>
>

In the 1988 edition of the Larousse, edited by Jenifer Lang the red sauce
consisted only of ground shellfish shells, which sounds a bit strange. I
steam Dungeness crab when it's in season. Maybe I'll try that, although I
wonder.
The English translation in the 1988 edition of the Larousse is much clearer.

Kent





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"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kent" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Kent" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Kent wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul, I'd suggest browning the meat in the roasting pan on top of the
>>>>>> stove to give it a good surface char, and then placing it in the oven
>>>>>> at a lower
>>>>>
>>>>> One could also marinate the meat for 24 - 48 hours in either Madeira,
>>>>> marsalla, port or even a good red burgundy, then, after browning on
>>>>> top of the stove place in a pot just big enough to hold it and just
>>>>> cover with the marinating wine and any extra stock or water necessary
>>>>> to just cover the meat and braise it till done, replenishing liquid as
>>>>> necessary. Braising on a bed of veggies (carrots, onions, celery etc.)
>>>>> is a good addition and then filter the braising liquid, defat and
>>>>> serve au jus or add a thickening agent such as a burrre manie
>>>>> --
>>>>> JL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> With filet mignon? You're obviously kidding. My suggestion was a change
>>>> to the original recipe suggested by Christine.
>>>> http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/44458
>>>
>>> No he is not kidding. Wine marinated prime rib roast is a pretty damn
>>> good dish. Just because Escoffier didn't come up with the idea does not
>>> make it bad.
>>>
>>> Kent, you seem like quite a dilettante to me. You have committed a
>>> couple of French cookbooks from 1900 to memory and now you profess to
>>> know all. And you scoff at anything not on those blessed pages. Do you
>>> actually cook? I suspect not.
>>>
>>> Dilettante.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>

>> Paul, I, and my wife, have cooked a lot, for many years. Now that I'm
>> retired that occupies most of the day for both of us.
>> I have an idea for a Chateaubriand like yours that I'm going to try.
>>
>> Brown it in a roasting pan over high heat. Remove from heat and rest it.
>> Thoroughly deglaze the pan with wine. Pour that off and save for sauce as
>> has been discussed in chef Eric Ripert's recipe. Then put browned meat
>> into a one gallon double ziploc bag with very small amount of the
>> deglazing liquid. Suck all the air out of the ziploc bag and seal. The
>> polyethylene should firmly cover the meat and liquid. There should be no
>> air. Then the bagged meat goes into a water bath at about 150F, and sits
>> there until the meat temp is about 130F. I'm going to use a ceramic
>> crockpot on warm, which hits about 150F. This all should give you a good
>> char, with edge to edge rare meat, with muscle breakdown because of the
>> slow cooking.
>>
>> As you probably well know this is the rage in restaurants these days, and
>> is called sous vide, or "under vacuum". By doing the above, a lot of
>> money is saved on equipment you're only going to periodically use. I had
>> a good talk today with an engineering person at the Johnson Co., makers
>> of Ziploc. They say ziploc will tolerate safely this type of cooking
>> without breakdown of the polyethylene, as long as you don't cook above
>> 235F, where it breaks down. Even when and if it breaks down, it doesn't
>> create a health hazard, only overcooked dry meat.
>>
>> To answer your cooking question, we've always been very interested in
>> food and have cooked in earnest for many years. I have several times
>> bought 100lb of veal and beef trimmings to make brown stock, then reduced
>> it to espagnole, and to demiglace.
>>
>> That alone, obviously, doesn't make you a "chef". However we've traveled
>> and dined throughout France, the rest of Europe. and Asia. We've managed
>> to dine in about 15 Michelin 3 star restaurants. At that time all
>> Michelin Restaurants were in France, save for one in Belgium. When you
>> get home, we have somewhat naively tried to duplicate what we ate
>> overseas. We have about 300 cookbooks to read while trying to get to
>> sleep and in the kitchen while hovering over the stove.
>>
>> We both love to cook. Obviously you do too. Regardless of what you read
>> into my rhetoric, I greatly enjoy this NG and learn from it. Cooking is
>> all about common sense and trying to do something better that what's on
>> paper.

>
>
> That's all good. But Escoffier et al were not the *last* word on French
> cooking, just one of the originals. Just because a recipe or a procedure
> is not enshrined in one of their tomes does not mean it is not "French."
> And things do change over the centuries, like techniques for sauces.
>
> It's all good.
>
> Paul
>

And they change their nomenclature. I like Beurre Monte Rouges.

Kent


  #79 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 954
Default Chateaubriand ideas


"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Steve Pope wrote:
>>> Paul M. Cook > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Nobody cooks like that anymore. I mean come on, a half dozen
>>>>Maine lobsters to make sauce for 4 people? Very wasteful and that
>>>>symbolized a lot of the old French style.
>>>
>>>
>>> Entire lobsters? Or just the shells? I could envision a bisque-like
>>> sauce that involved the shells.
>>>
>>> Steve

>>
>> There is also an edition of his book for the home cook where in the
>> amounts are modified for the home cook.
>>
>> The market for cook books was different when it was first published than
>> it is now. But it is still in print.
>>
>> The original was written for the trade. And in amounts more common to
>> commercial establishments or large households with kitchen staff. The
>> man was a military veteran, and a working chef for the rest of his
>> professional life, head Chef of several of the best hotels of his day and
>> iirc responsible for setting up the original kitchens at the Waldorf
>> Astoria in NYC.
>>
>> Anyone familiar with August Escoffier's work knows he decries waste and
>> excess as much as he demands absolute freshness in all his ingredients.

>
> His definition of waste would not be the one we recognize today.
>
>> His text does contain some historical curiosities where in he starts the
>> recipe with words to the effect that "this recipe is rarely produced
>> today although it was quite common in days gone by"
>>
>> And in his section home made liquors he adds "which is to be much
>> regretted" .... that people don't make these home made liquors any more
>> (circa 1921 c.e.)

>
> By waste he meant food that was left to spoil. He did not consider a
> sumptuous feast of ingredients that could feed an entire family of 12 just
> to make a sauce for 2 to be a waste. Now it those ingredients spoiled,
> that was a waste. He cooked for the wealthy who demanded sumptuous and
> extravagant dishes. No expense was spared to that end. Waste as in 20
> pounds of seafood to make a soup for a table of 4 or a whole 100 pound sea
> turtle for soup for the same table was not an offense to their standards.
> Back then there was ample supply and ample money. Waste had a whole
> different definition.
>
> Paul
>
>

One description of this I read suggested this is a recipe for a sort of
blenderized newberg. You create a thicker spread you put on toast, or
something. Actually it sounds good, and would work with leftover Dungeness
crab.

Kent



  #80 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.food.cooking
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Posts: 954
Default Chateaubriand ideas


"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kent" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Kent" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "M. JL Esq." > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Kent wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul, I'd suggest browning the meat in the roasting pan on top of the
>>>>>> stove to give it a good surface char, and then placing it in the oven
>>>>>> at a lower
>>>>>
>>>>> One could also marinate the meat for 24 - 48 hours in either Madeira,
>>>>> marsalla, port or even a good red burgundy, then, after browning on
>>>>> top of the stove place in a pot just big enough to hold it and just
>>>>> cover with the marinating wine and any extra stock or water necessary
>>>>> to just cover the meat and braise it till done, replenishing liquid as
>>>>> necessary. Braising on a bed of veggies (carrots, onions, celery etc.)
>>>>> is a good addition and then filter the braising liquid, defat and
>>>>> serve au jus or add a thickening agent such as a burrre manie
>>>>> --
>>>>> JL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> With filet mignon? You're obviously kidding. My suggestion was a change
>>>> to the original recipe suggested by Christine.
>>>> http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/44458
>>>
>>> No he is not kidding. Wine marinated prime rib roast is a pretty damn
>>> good dish. Just because Escoffier didn't come up with the idea does not
>>> make it bad.
>>>
>>> Kent, you seem like quite a dilettante to me. You have committed a
>>> couple of French cookbooks from 1900 to memory and now you profess to
>>> know all. And you scoff at anything not on those blessed pages. Do you
>>> actually cook? I suspect not.
>>>
>>> Dilettante.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>

>> Paul, I, and my wife, have cooked a lot, for many years. Now that I'm
>> retired that occupies most of the day for both of us.
>> I have an idea for a Chateaubriand like yours that I'm going to try.
>>
>> Brown it in a roasting pan over high heat. Remove from heat and rest it.
>> Thoroughly deglaze the pan with wine. Pour that off and save for sauce as
>> has been discussed in chef Eric Ripert's recipe. Then put browned meat
>> into a one gallon double ziploc bag with very small amount of the
>> deglazing liquid. Suck all the air out of the ziploc bag and seal. The
>> polyethylene should firmly cover the meat and liquid. There should be no
>> air. Then the bagged meat goes into a water bath at about 150F, and sits
>> there until the meat temp is about 130F. I'm going to use a ceramic
>> crockpot on warm, which hits about 150F. This all should give you a good
>> char, with edge to edge rare meat, with muscle breakdown because of the
>> slow cooking.
>>
>> As you probably well know this is the rage in restaurants these days, and
>> is called sous vide, or "under vacuum". By doing the above, a lot of
>> money is saved on equipment you're only going to periodically use. I had
>> a good talk today with an engineering person at the Johnson Co., makers
>> of Ziploc. They say ziploc will tolerate safely this type of cooking
>> without breakdown of the polyethylene, as long as you don't cook above
>> 235F, where it breaks down. Even when and if it breaks down, it doesn't
>> create a health hazard, only overcooked dry meat.
>>
>> To answer your cooking question, we've always been very interested in
>> food and have cooked in earnest for many years. I have several times
>> bought 100lb of veal and beef trimmings to make brown stock, then reduced
>> it to espagnole, and to demiglace.
>>
>> That alone, obviously, doesn't make you a "chef". However we've traveled
>> and dined throughout France, the rest of Europe. and Asia. We've managed
>> to dine in about 15 Michelin 3 star restaurants. At that time all
>> Michelin Restaurants were in France, save for one in Belgium. When you
>> get home, we have somewhat naively tried to duplicate what we ate
>> overseas. We have about 300 cookbooks to read while trying to get to
>> sleep and in the kitchen while hovering over the stove.
>>
>> We both love to cook. Obviously you do too. Regardless of what you read
>> into my rhetoric, I greatly enjoy this NG and learn from it. Cooking is
>> all about common sense and trying to do something better that what's on
>> paper.

>
>
> That's all good. But Escoffier et al were not the *last* word on French
> cooking, just one of the originals. Just because a recipe or a procedure
> is not enshrined in one of their tomes does not mean it is not "French."
> And things do change over the centuries, like techniques for sauces.
>
> It's all good.
>
> Paul
>

Of interest, I just noticed that the picture of the chateaubriand shows a
slight brown ring and the meat looks overly rare in the center.

http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/44458

Kent



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