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Old 20-08-2010, 07:14 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.

http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
linary--degrees--/

--
Julian Vrieslander

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Old 20-08-2010, 07:42 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees


"Julian Vrieslander" ha scritto nel messaggio

Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.

http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
linary--degrees--/


It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to
slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
anything?


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Old 20-08-2010, 09:17 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

On 2010-08-20, Giusi wrote:


slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
anything?


Nonsense.

The current head chef of Brasserie Les Halles, Tony Bourdain's former
job, was a Mexican immigrant who started at the bottom, there, and
worked up to exectutive chef in only 8 yrs. Tony profiled him on one
episode of his show.

On the other hand, I worked with an aspiring cook who was already a
line cook for a former Iron Chef America contestant and that chef, his
boss, recommended the young man go to Johnson and Wales, a rather
pricey school and the chef's former school. I thought that was pretty
weird advice, but the last I heard, the young cook left cooking in the
chef's restaurant is now at J&W. So obviously, some chefs have
different hiring/training criteria.

nb
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Old 20-08-2010, 09:23 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

On Aug 20, 2:42*pm, "Giusi" wrote:
"Julian Vrieslander" *ha scritto nel messaggio

Thinking of going to culinary school? *Read this first.


http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
linary--degrees--/


It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to
slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
anything?


The money's not too good in the field. Why anyone would want to be a
pro cook is beyond me(sort of). I can understand if the individual
wants to gravitate towards becoming a boss; sous chef or ex. chef. I
wanted to be a pro cook because I liked cooking. I sold out and left
the trade and went to machinists school. To be a cook, a pro cook you
need to be an idealist. Spending 50K is like way out there. I didn't
even really go to school. I took a 10 week course in gourmet cooking
at a community college. Then I went to school while an apprentice.
A person should be a pretty good cook after a three year
apprenticeship.(assuming the person is interested in the field) He/
she should know the basics. That doesn't mean that they can go into
any restaurant (after apprenticeship) and the first day send out
masterpieces.
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Old 20-08-2010, 09:30 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees


"notbob" ha scritto nel messaggio
...
On 2010-08-20, Giusi wrote:


slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
anything?


Nonsense.

The current head chef of Brasserie Les Halles, Tony Bourdain's former
job, was a Mexican immigrant who started at the bottom, there, and
worked up to exectutive chef in only 8 yrs. Tony profiled him on one
episode of his show.

On the other hand, I worked with an aspiring cook who was already a
line cook for a former Iron Chef America contestant and that chef, his
boss, recommended the young man go to Johnson and Wales, a rather
pricey school and the chef's former school. I thought that was pretty
weird advice, but the last I heard, the young cook left cooking in the
chef's restaurant is now at J&W. So obviously, some chefs have
different hiring/training criteria.


Two stories do not a history make. Most of the chefs I know here
apprenticed. They earned almost nothing for years and years and they
weren't given anything to cook until they'd proved themselves.

Most chefs I know in the US went to school. They have to move as quickly as
possible toward that $120000 a year job or they will go under from tuition
debt. It doesn't make sense for cookery schools to cost the same as law
schools but the pay when working averages a small fraction of a lawyer's
pay.




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Old 20-08-2010, 09:56 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

Giusi wrote:
"Julian Vrieslander" ha scritto nel messaggio

Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.

http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
linary--degrees--/


It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to
slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
anything?



There was a local cooking school that the province shut down last winter
because they were operating illegally and the students (mostly from
India) complained that they were being exploited as cheap labour.




http://www.thestar.com/news/investig...ra-chef-school
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Old 20-08-2010, 10:06 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

On 2010-08-20, Giusi wrote:

Two stories do not a history make.


Nor do European apprenticeship traditions when talking about US
schools/cooking.

They earned almost nothing for years and years and they
weren't given anything to cook until they'd proved themselves.


Hey, it's your system, not ours.

Most chefs I know in the US went to school.


Of course. We have no virtual slave apprenticeship program like
Europe and never have.

They have to move as quickly as possible toward that $120000 a year
job or they will go under from tuition debt.


As most do.

It doesn't make sense for cookery schools to cost the same as law
schools but the pay when working averages a small fraction of a lawyer's
pay.


It does if corruption and greed is the driving force behind cooking
schools and students are basically dumber'n a bag o' hammers and are
lured by completely bogus cooking shows that have absolutely nothing
in common with a real culinary career.

Bottom line: you can only accomplish what you are willing to strive
for.

nb
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Old 20-08-2010, 10:48 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

On 2010-08-20, Mr Bill wrote:

qualified to walk across the street..and the best you might hope for
is to be able to say..."can I supersize that for you?"


lol...

nb
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Old 20-08-2010, 10:59 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees


"Julian Vrieslander" wrote in message
...
Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.

http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
linary--degrees--/

--
Julian Vrieslander


Start with your local Community Colleges or Public Trade schools for your
basic certificates I sanitation understanding - Then continue along the
lines and start working.

Dimitri

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Old 20-08-2010, 11:58 PM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

On Aug 20, 2:59*pm, "Dimitri" wrote:


Start with your local Community Colleges or Public Trade schools for your
basic certificates I sanitation understanding - Then continue along the
lines and start working.

Dimitri



You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can
teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to
make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management
and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in
cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'.

Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye
is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK.

That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for
cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who
never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have
the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not
a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this
ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag.

So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is
great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make
it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder.


go to these acadamies and never make it as actual head or even sous
chefs.



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Old 21-08-2010, 01:15 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

On 8/20/2010 5:58 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is
great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make
it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder.


go to these acadamies and never make it as actual head or even sous
chefs.


It is just like landscape design or hairstyling, there are some things
that a school just can not teach you.

Becca
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Old 21-08-2010, 01:27 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

In article ,
Mr. Bill wrote:


Who paid for basket ball school or football school?.....No one
does...it you have the talent, no piece of paper will make you
qualified to walk across the street..and the best you might hope for
is to be able to say..."can I supersize that for you?"


Don't know about BB, but football in the US is Big Business. The alumni
generally pay for the schooling. Most pro football players go to four
years of college first. The main qualification for many football
players is height and 250 pounds of solid muscle, including that huge
muscle between the ears. They often attend few if any classes. It's
football and parties. Their success is measured on the field, not in
class. They get scholarships that pay for everything. Some alumni buy
cars. Title to the cars stays with the buyer, but the player gets to
use them as though they owned them.

There are exceptions, of course. Some college players go to class and
get an education. They know that only the best get offered a pro
contract. And only those who succeed well in the pros get real playing
time and last more than a few years.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

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Old 21-08-2010, 02:00 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:42:51 +0200, "Giusi"
wrote:


"Julian Vrieslander" ha scritto nel messaggio

Thinking of going to culinary school? Read this first.

http://crosscut.com/2010/08/20/education/20074/The-scandal-of-$50,000-cu
linary--degrees--/


It's really inexcusable, but how many kids are you going to convince to
slave these days as an apprentice for 10 years before they actually cook
anything?


Methinks you exaggerate. I agree with the value of an apprenticeship
but not with the ten years before cooking anything. An apprentice in
any trade will be perfoming almost immediately and will progress at
whatever rate their innate ability permits. Cooking is an art, same
as with all art forms without natural talent one goes nowhere.
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Old 21-08-2010, 02:03 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

ImStillMags wrote:

You are correct Dimitri. The only thing most culinary schools can
teach you is 'technique', knife skills and basic formulas of how to
make stock, how to make a roux, etc.etc.etc. Restaurant management
and kitchen management are courses where even the least skilled in
cooking can at least learn things that would help them in a 'career'.

Cooking something that actually tastes good and is pleasing to the eye
is an ART, a SKILL, I like to call it a KNACK.

That is inherent in a person. You cannot teach the knack for
cooking. That is why there are so very many 'chefs' who
never rise beyond 'cook'. I have personally hired 'chefs' who have
the degree, the piece of paper, but no knack and not
a lot of sense of what goes with what and what compliments this
ingredient. They couldn't cook their way out of a paper bag.

So.....big bucks for a fancy degree from a major culinary school is
great certification. But you better have the innate knowing to make
it work if you want to climb up the culinary ladder.


This reads so much like discussions I've read about IT workers and
degrees in computer science. There are plenty who suceed without a
degree, but my degree sure opened doors for me that had been blocked
before. There are enough degreed folks who aren't any good.

But college is about a lot more than the point skills in the major and
those other aspects end up making more and more difference as the years
go on. People who never went to get that degree don't like that.

Appenticeships are for technicians and skilled laborers. University is
for professionals engineers and scientists. To my engineering biased
view this should map - Apprenticeships are for prep cooks and line
cooks. University is for professionals chefs, menu designers and
culinary experimenters.
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Old 21-08-2010, 02:04 AM posted to rec.food.cooking
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Default The scandal of $50k culinary degrees

On 2010-08-21, Ema Nymton wrote:

It is just like landscape design or hairstyling.......


On what planet can you get a hairstyling license without schooling?

nb


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