I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
they used.

I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
the dough together.

What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
texture?

Mark Thorson wrote:
> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
> I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
> I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
> today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
> they used.
>
> I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
> carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
> the dough together.
>
> What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
> Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
> texture?

It's for richness and texture, yes. It can be left out, but I don't like
the result. I'd use oil, if saturated fat is an issue.

(Masa, like polenta, firms up just fine on its own. It doesn't need help
from lard.)

Serene

--
"I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory

On Sat, 22 May 2010 09:50:14 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough, I'd have to use a
> saturated fat like lard or Crisco. I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's
snip

Mark,
IMHO there is a big difference between crisco and lard. supposedly crisco
which is hydrolyzed packs on 4 time the fat as an equal amount of lard.
If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.



--
regards, piedmont ~ the practical bbq'r!

http://sites.google.com/site/thepracticalbbqr/

On 5/22/2010 12:10 PM, Serene Vannoy wrote:
> Mark Thorson wrote:
>> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
>> I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
>> I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
>> today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
>> they used.
>>
>> I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
>> carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
>> the dough together.
>>
>> What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
>> Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
>> texture?
>
> It's for richness and texture, yes. It can be left out, but I don't like
> the result. I'd use oil, if saturated fat is an issue.
>
> (Masa, like polenta, firms up just fine on its own. It doesn't need help
> from lard.)
>
> Serene
>


A lot of the fat cooks out during steaming (the corn husk soaks it up)

If you leave the fat out of the masa, you might want to use an
extra-greasy filling, otherwise the tamales will probably taste dry.

I'm trying to figure out a tamale filling to use now that DD has gone a
little stricter towards vegetarianism. (she eats fish and shellfish,
but not much. Eggs, meat, and dairy are OK) She used to eat chicken,
and I made tamales with chicken filling and used goose fat in the masa.
I think she might eat wild game if it was available but I'm not sure.

Maybe black beans, onions, and portabello mushrooms? Or that nasty
black corn fungus you buy in expensive little cans at the Mexican store?
(a little of that probably goes a long way) Shark meat chili might be
interesting...

Bob

piedmont wrote:
>
> IMHO there is a big difference between crisco and lard. supposedly crisco
> which is hydrolyzed packs on 4 time the fat as an equal amount of lard.
> If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.

You mean non-hydrogenated. Hydrolyzed lard
would be soap.

I think the formula of Crisco changed a few
years ago. I'll check again, but I think it's
now trans-fat free.

zxcvbob wrote:
>
> I'm trying to figure out a tamale filling to use now that DD has gone a
> little stricter towards vegetarianism. (she eats fish and shellfish,
> but not much. Eggs, meat, and dairy are OK) She used to eat chicken,
> and I made tamales with chicken filling and used goose fat in the masa.
> I think she might eat wild game if it was available but I'm not sure.
>
> Maybe black beans, onions, and portabello mushrooms? Or that nasty
> black corn fungus you buy in expensive little cans at the Mexican store?
> (a little of that probably goes a long way) Shark meat chili might be
> interesting...

I've been thinking about a vegetarian tamale
filling. Maybe that nacho cheese sauce that
comes in a #10 can, some vegetarian refried beans,
whole canned corn, whole black beans, and chopped
onions. I haven't tried any of this yet, I'm
just thinking about it.

> Mark Thorson wrote:
>> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
>> I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
>> I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
>> today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
>> they used.
>>
>> I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
>> carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
>> the dough together.
>>
>> What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
>> Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
>> texture?

(piggybacking)

There is no such thing as a fat-free tamale. There must be a
labeling or reading mistake.

Fat makes the dough tasty and moist. I can't imagine a tamale
without it.

-sw

On Sat, 22 May 2010 17:22:41 +0000 (UTC), piedmont wrote:

> If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.

Hydrolyzed lard?

You really are an idiot.

I haven't even seen partially hydrogenated lard (Armour is not, for
example), let alone hydrolyzed lard.

You dog was very tasty, BTW.

-sw

On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:32:48 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:

> A lot of the fat cooks out during steaming (the corn husk soaks it up)

I don't agree with that at all. If corn husks soaks up oil, why
aren't they using that in the Gulf instead of human and animal hair?
they asking for contributions of hair?

There's a fair amount of fat in tamale dough, and I've never any fat
at the bottom of the steaming vessel. The fat stays in the masa, in
my opinion.

-sw

Sqwertz wrote:
> On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:32:48 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:
>
>> A lot of the fat cooks out during steaming (the corn husk soaks it up)
>
> I don't agree with that at all. If corn husks soaks up oil, why
> aren't they using that in the Gulf instead of human and animal hair?
> they asking for contributions of hair?
>
> There's a fair amount of fat in tamale dough, and I've never any fat
> at the bottom of the steaming vessel. The fat stays in the masa, in
> my opinion.

Yep, I agree.

Serene

--
"I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory

On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:32:48 -0500, zxcvbob >
wrote:

>On 5/22/2010 12:10 PM, Serene Vannoy wrote:
>> Mark Thorson wrote:
>>> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
>>> I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
>>> I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
>>> today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
>>> they used.
>>>
>>> I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
>>> carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
>>> the dough together.
>>>
>>> What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
>>> Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
>>> texture?
>>
>> It's for richness and texture, yes. It can be left out, but I don't like
>> the result. I'd use oil, if saturated fat is an issue.
>>
>> (Masa, like polenta, firms up just fine on its own. It doesn't need help
>> from lard.)
>>
>> Serene
>>
>
>
>A lot of the fat cooks out during steaming (the corn husk soaks it up)
>
>If you leave the fat out of the masa, you might want to use an
>extra-greasy filling, otherwise the tamales will probably taste dry.
>
>I'm trying to figure out a tamale filling to use now that DD has gone a
>little stricter towards vegetarianism. (she eats fish and shellfish,
>but not much. Eggs, meat, and dairy are OK) She used to eat chicken,
>and I made tamales with chicken filling and used goose fat in the masa.
> I think she might eat wild game if it was available but I'm not sure.
>
>Maybe black beans, onions, and portabello mushrooms? Or that nasty
>black corn fungus you buy in expensive little cans at the Mexican store?
> (a little of that probably goes a long way) Shark meat chili might be
>interesting...
>
>Bob

I also made some corn, green chili tamales <still sorting through the
photos> The masa was made up using canned cream-style corn, milk,
chicken broth and lard. I don't know how it would be without the lard
but if I were to experiment with it, I would replace the 1/2 cup of
lard the recipe calls for with more of the creamed corn.

koko
--

There is no love more sincere than the love of food
George Bernard Shaw

www.kokoscornerblog.com
updated 05/22/10

piedmont wrote:
> On Sat, 22 May 2010 09:50:14 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
>> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough, I'd have to use a
>> saturated fat like lard or Crisco. I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's
> snip
>
> Mark,
> IMHO there is a big difference between crisco and lard. supposedly crisco
> which is hydrolyzed packs on 4 time the fat as an equal amount of lard.
> If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.

You may mean hydrogenated. At any rate, there's no way it's got four
times the fat. Four times the saturates, I'd buy, but saturated fat
doesn't actually have more fat in it than non-saturated. 100% fat is
100% fat.

Serene

--
"I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory

On 5/22/2010 1:34 PM, koko wrote:
> On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:32:48 -0500, >
<snip>
>> I'm trying to figure out a tamale filling to use now that DD has gone a
>> little stricter towards vegetarianism. (she eats fish and shellfish,
>> but not much. Eggs, meat, and dairy are OK) She used to eat chicken,
>> and I made tamales with chicken filling and used goose fat in the masa.
>> I think she might eat wild game if it was available but I'm not sure.
>>
>> Maybe black beans, onions, and portabello mushrooms? Or that nasty
>> black corn fungus you buy in expensive little cans at the Mexican store?
>> (a little of that probably goes a long way) Shark meat chili might be
>> interesting...
>>
>> Bob
>
> I also made some corn, green chili tamales<still sorting through the
> photos> The masa was made up using canned cream-style corn, milk,
> chicken broth and lard. I don't know how it would be without the lard
> but if I were to experiment with it, I would replace the 1/2 cup of
> lard the recipe calls for with more of the creamed corn.
>
> koko


I think coconut oil would be a better substitute. Maybe 1/3 cup of
coconut oil instead of 1/2 cup of lard.

Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
>
> I think coconut oil would be a better substitute. Maybe 1/3 cup of
> coconut oil instead of 1/2 cup of lard.

This would be a very unhealthful substitution.
Coconut oil is the most saturated naturally
occurring food fat. Coconut oil raises
cholesterol more than beef fat!

Am J Clin Nutr. 1985 Aug;42(2):190-7.
Plasma lipid and lipoprotein response of humans
to beef fat, coconut oil and safflower oil.
Reiser R, Probstfield JL, Silvers A, Scott LW,
Shorney ML, Wood RD, O'Brien BC, Gotto AM Jr,
Insull W Jr.

This study's purpose was to evaluate the fasting
human plasma lipid and lipoprotein responses to
dietary beef fat (BF) by comparison with coconut
oil (CO) and safflower oil (SO), fats customarily
classified as saturated and polyunsaturated.
Nineteen free-living normolipidemic men aged
25.6 +/- 3.5 yr consumed centrally-prepared
lunches and dinners of common foods having 35%
fat calories, 60% of which was the test fat.
The test fats were isocalorically substituted,
and each fed for five weeks in random sequences
with intervening five weeks of habitual diets.
Plasma total cholesterol (TC), high-density
lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), and low-density
lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C) concentrations
among individuals follows the same relative rank
regardless of diet. Triglycerides (TG)
concentrations among individuals also maintain
their relative rank regardless of diet but in
a different order from that of the cholesterols.
Plasma TC, HDL-C, and LDL-C responses to BF were
significantly lower and TG higher than to CO.
As compared to SO, BF produced equivalent levels
of TG, HDL-C, and LDL-C and marginally higher TC.
Thus, the customary consideration of BF as
"saturated" and grouping it with CO appears
unwarranted.

On 2010-05-22, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> I had been assuming.....

You tend to do that, a lot.

> that if I make a tamale dough,
> I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.

Only if you choose to. Crisco, like the "lard" (manteca) on the
market shelf, is saturated because it's been hydrogenated. Bad mojo.
Use fresh rendered pork lard. Much more healthy.

http://www.pri.org/health/praise-the-lard1453.html

nb

Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> piedmont wrote:
> >
> > IMHO there is a big difference between crisco and lard. supposedly crisco
> > which is hydrolyzed packs on 4 time the fat as an equal amount of lard.
> > If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.
>
> You mean non-hydrogenated. Hydrolyzed lard
> would be soap.
>
> I think the formula of Crisco changed a few
> years ago. I'll check again, but I think it's
> now trans-fat free.

I just checked. Crisco indeed has a label claim
of zero trans fats, but it does contain partially
hydrogenated soybean oil so it must have some
trans fats. It must be below the level that
requires reporting. As I recall, its three fats,
in order, are soybean oil, fully hydrogenated palm
oil, and partially hydrogenated soybean oil.

Trans fats are formed when oils are partially
hydrogenated. Crisco gets their level of trans
fats down by using a fully hydrogenated oil,
which does not have trans fats. It's a more
saturated fat than a partially hydrogenated fat,
so it can displace some of the partially
hydrogenated fat and allow some unmodified
soybean oil to be used.

Still, I have to wonder about using a fully
hydrogenated fat. Neither lard, beef fat, nor
coconut oil are fully hydrogenated.

On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:08:39 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

> zxcvbob wrote:
>>
>> I think coconut oil would be a better substitute. Maybe 1/3 cup of
>> coconut oil instead of 1/2 cup of lard.
>
> This would be a very unhealthful substitution.
> Coconut oil is the most saturated naturally
> occurring food fat. Coconut oil raises
> cholesterol more than beef fat!

I can't believe it. The minute I trade Om for Throson in my
killfile, Mark comes up and posts another one of these BS
"scientific studies" which is why I killfile him in the first place.

I won't argue his defective studies other than point out that
half the world uses coconut and palm oils as their primary source of
cooing oil. And they are not keeling over from saturated fat intake
or high cholesterol.

-sw

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> I won't argue his defective studies other than point out that
> half the world uses coconut and palm oils as their primary source of
> cooing oil. And they are not keeling over from saturated fat intake
> or high cholesterol.

Comparative studies do show higher rates of
cardiovascular disease attributed to coconut
and palm oil intake.

Eur J Epidemiol. 2001;17(5):469-77.
Differences in all-cause, cardiovascular and
cancer mortality between Hong Kong and Singapo
role of nutrition.
Zhang J, Kesteloot H.
Department of Epidemiology, School of Public
Health, Catholic University of Leuven, Belgium.

BACKGROUND: The majority of inhabitants in Hong Kong
and Singapore are ethnic Chinese, but all-cause and
cardiovascular mortality rates in these two regions
are markedly different. This study describes
differences in the magnitude and trends in mortality
and attempts to explain these differences.

METHODS: Data of mortality rates in 1963-1965 and
1993-1995 in the age class of 45-74 years, dietary
habits and other factors were compared between
Hong Kong and Singapore using Japan, Spain and the USA
as reference countries. Mortality and food consumption
data were obtained from WHO and FAO, respectively.

RESULTS: Large differences in all-cause and cardiovascular
mortality exist between Hong Kong and Singapore. The
difference in total cancer mortality was less consistent
and smaller. The most pronounced finding was that ischemic
heart disease mortality in 1993-1995 was 2.98 and 3.14 times
higher in Singapore than in Hong Kong in men and women,
respectively. Of the five countries considered, Singapore
has the highest all-cause mortality in both sexes in the
period of 1960-1995. The ratio of animal to vegetal fat
was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08).
Singapore had higher serum concentrations of total
cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol
than Hong Kong, but the opposite result was observed
for high-density lipoprotein cholesterol.

CONCLUSIONS: There are striking differences in all-cause
and cardiovascular mortality between Hong Kong and
Singapore. These differences can be most reasonably and
plausibly explained by their differences in dietary
habits, for example, a higher consumption of coconut and
palm oil, mainly containing saturated fat, in Singapore.

On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:50:52 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

> Still, I have to wonder about using a fully
> hydrogenated fat. Neither lard, beef fat, nor
> coconut oil are fully hydrogenated.

Commercial lard and tallow is usually some percentage of
hydrogenated fat, usually 50% or more.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Armour-Lard-128-oz/10449264
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard#Lard_production

-sw

On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:09:58 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

> Sqwertz wrote:
>>
>> I won't argue his defective studies other than point out that
>> half the world uses coconut and palm oils as their primary source of
>> cooing oil. And they are not keeling over from saturated fat intake
>> or high cholesterol.
>
> Comparative studies...

You know this is why people don't read your posts or care what you
have to say.

Congrats. You lasted 4 hours out of the killfile. UIc an read
scientific studies all day long - I need to waste my precious Usenet
bandwidth a monkey posting them.

-sw

-sw

On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:35:34 -0500, Sqwertz wrote:

> I need to waste my precious Usenet bandwidth a monkey posting them....

....like I need a hole in the head.

-sw

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:50:52 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> > Still, I have to wonder about using a fully
> > hydrogenated fat. Neither lard, beef fat, nor
> > coconut oil are fully hydrogenated.
>
> Commercial lard and tallow is usually some percentage of
> hydrogenated fat, usually 50% or more.
>
> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Armour-Lard-128-oz/10449264
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard#Lard_production

I should have said "fully saturated" rather than
"fully hydrogenated", to distinguish the state of
the fat from the artificial process for raising
the saturation of a fat.

In article >,
notbob > wrote:

> On 2010-05-22, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> > I had been assuming.....
>
> You tend to do that, a lot.
>
> > that if I make a tamale dough,
> > I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
>
> Only if you choose to. Crisco, like the "lard" (manteca) on the
> market shelf, is saturated because it's been hydrogenated. Bad mojo.
> Use fresh rendered pork lard. Much more healthy.
>
> http://www.pri.org/health/praise-the-lard1453.html
>
> nb

That is a regional product tho'. I was able to mail some to another
list member this past winter when the weather was cold enough to do it.
She could not get it locally.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar and fat. --Alex Levine

On Sat, 22 May 2010 14:59:05 -0500, Sqwertz wrote:

> On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:08:39 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
>> zxcvbob wrote:
>>>
>>> I think coconut oil would be a better substitute. Maybe 1/3 cup of
>>> coconut oil instead of 1/2 cup of lard.
>>
>> This would be a very unhealthful substitution.
>> Coconut oil is the most saturated naturally
>> occurring food fat. Coconut oil raises
>> cholesterol more than beef fat!
>
> I can't believe it. The minute I trade Om for Throson in my
> killfile, Mark comes up and posts another one of these BS
> "scientific studies" which is why I killfile him in the first place.
>
> I won't argue his defective studies other than point out that
> half the world uses coconut and palm oils as their primary source of
> cooing oil. And they are not keeling over from saturated fat intake
> or high cholesterol.
>
> -sw

it doesn't show up on the longitudinal studies because those people hack
each other to death with machetes at an earlier age than when the
cardiovascular problems would occur.

your pal,
blake

In article >, piedmont >
wrote:

> On Sat, 22 May 2010 09:50:14 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> > I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough, I'd have to use a
> > saturated fat like lard or Crisco. I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's
> snip
>
> Mark,
> IMHO there is a big difference between crisco and lard. supposedly crisco
> which is hydrolyzed packs on 4 time the fat as an equal amount of lard.
> If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.

I think you got some things confused, Mike. "Hydrolyze" has to do with
water. I suspect you want "hydrogenate", which is a process to convert
unsaturated fats, which are generally liquid at room temperature, to
saturated fats, which are solid. Lots of medical folks recommend
reducing our consumption of saturated fats. Unfortunately, both Crisco
and lard, which are 100% fat, are often hydrogenated for sale. This
makes them shelf stable. If you can buy lard that is not hydrogenated,
it will be lower in saturated fat. It will probably be refrigerated and
more expensive. Crisco is made out of vegetable oil, so that would be
the non-hydrogenated version.

Unless I was going to be eating a lot of tamales, I wouldn't worry about
it a lot. Others need to decide for themselves.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

Dan Abel > wrote:

>Unless I was going to be eating a lot of tamales, I wouldn't worry about
>it a lot. Others need to decide for themselves.

On this topic, local yuppie vendors make tamales with olive
oil instead of lard. They are not quite as fluffy, but not
as lead-brick as one would have epxected them to be. The
result is good.

Steve