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"Steve Pope" > wrote in message
...
> sf > wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 22 May 2010 18:56:15 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

>
>>> "Steve Pope" > wrote

>
>>>> But even were this not true, it would not change my opinion
>>>> on immigration. I resent the fact that various governments
>>>> around the world try to tell me where I can or can not travel,
>>>> work, and live. So by the Golden Rule I do not support my
>>>> government applying such restrictions to others.

>
>>> Check the rules for moving to Mexico. You'd be amazed at the
>>> restrictions.

>
> (Scatchs head)... I have no idea how you got from what I wrote above,
> to what you wrote.


You said there should be no restrictions to live where you want too live. I
just suggested you check the rules for Mexico as compared to the US.. They
have lots of rules that you would not like, as do many countries. To get a
Visa to some countries as well as permission to enter, you have to show a
valid passport for six months and a ticket back home. They don't want to
get stuck with visitor deciding to just stay. They don't want to get stuck
with the bill as the US often does with illegal immigrants.

Many people would like to live here but if we just opened the doors, it
would not be possible to handle them all.

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Omelet > wrote:

> "Bob Terwilliger" > wrote:


>> Om wrote:


>> >>> He has no respect for our laws!


>> >> Um.. Just how much respect do *you* have for the laws of some foreign
>> >> country? Do you abide by the laws of Saudi Arabia?


>> > If I lived there, I'd have to.
>> > Anyone that lives here should!


>> So you believe that Calderon lives in the USA? And is President of Mexico at
>> the same time? Or is it just that you think Mexico is a kind of appendix of
>> Texas?


><sigh> No. He is objecting to Arizona law being applied to his illegal
>people that live there.


>Are you really this dense in real life?


I think Bob's point may be that if Saudi Arabia had an unfair
law (such as, beheading someone for adultery, or whatever),
a visiting head of state does not automatically "respect"
such a law. I would view it as a good thing if, for once, a U.S.
president could man up and tell the Saudis that what they're doing is
wrong (recall that Amnesty International rated Saudi Arabia worse
than Saddam's Iraq in human rights abuses). Especially so
if he did it on a state visit.

Arizona, with its history of white-on-brown police violence
and other unacceptable forms of discrimination, does not earn any
"respect" for its laws from Calderon. Or from many/most Americans.
Or plenty of Arizonans for that matter. And certainly not from
people internationally. All eyes are on Obama to see if he
does that right thing and stands up to the rightwing minority.


Steve
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> George Leppla > wrote:
>
>> You want to stop illegal immigration... it is easy to do. Make it
>> against the law to hire illegals. Put any businessman who hires
>> illegals in jail. Employment of illegals would stop immediately.



That has been done and success is limited. When you hire someone you must
fill out an I-9 form and the onus is on the employer. There are laws
against robbing convenience stores and J-walking too. They don't seem to be
100% effective either.

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Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>"Steve Pope" > wrote in message


>> sf > wrote:


>>>On Sat, 22 May 2010 18:56:15 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"


>>>> "Steve Pope" > wrote


>>>>> I resent the fact that various governments
>>>>> around the world try to tell me where I can or can not travel,
>>>>> work, and live. So by the Golden Rule I do not support my
>>>>> government applying such restrictions to others.


>>>> Check the rules for moving to Mexico. You'd be amazed at the
>>>> restrictions.


>> (Scatchs head)... I have no idea how you got from what I wrote above,
>> to what you wrote.


>You said there should be no restrictions to live where you want too live. I
>just suggested you check the rules for Mexico as compared to the US.. They
>have lots of rules that you would not like, as do many countries.


Yes, as I stated above, "I resent the fact that various governments
around the world try to tell me where I can or cannot travel,
live or work."

> To get a Visa to some countries as well as permission to enter,
> you have to show a valid passport for six months and a ticket
> back home. They don't want to get stuck with visitor deciding
> to just stay.


Yes, I know this; these are the very facts that formed the basis
of my statement immediately above. So it's pretty odd that you
said I should be looking up these fact...

> Many people would like to live here but if we just opened
> the doors, it would not be possible to handle them all.


I disagree. As I said, governments should butt out of the business
of telling people where to live or work. All governments.
U.S., Mexico, everywhere. There would be a transition of course,
but it's not like it's impossible or anything. There's always
a transition when you correct policy errors, but that is
no reason to throw up your hands and leave them in place.

Do you know that in China you can't even travel, move, or
change jobs internally without government permission? We
would consider that outrageous here wouldn't we? But how is
our behavior at our border any different? Fact is, it's
not any different; national borders are an outdated fiction
created by rightwingers.

Steve
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In article >,
"Bob Terwilliger" > wrote:

> Om wrote:
>
> >>>>> He has no respect for our laws!
> >>>>
> >>>> Um.. Just how much respect do *you* have for the laws of some foreign
> >>>> country? Do you abide by the laws of Saudi Arabia?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> If I lived there, I'd have to.
> >>> Anyone that lives here should!
> >>
> >> So you believe that Calderon lives in the USA? And is President of Mexico
> >> at
> >> the same time? Or is it just that you think Mexico is a kind of appendix
> >> of
> >> Texas?
> >>

> >
> > <sigh> No. He is objecting to Arizona law being applied to his illegal
> > people that live there.
> >
> > Are you really this dense in real life?

>
>
> You said *HE* -- meaning Calderon -- has no respect for our laws. That was
> just a stupid thing to say, since he has no reason to respect the laws of
> any country other than his own. Calderon never said that Mexicans living in
> Arizona illegally should not be subject to Arizona law. That's just your
> attempt at putting words into his mouth -- or maybe it's just some
> hallucination you're having.
>
> I think you should take a hiatus from posting until the drugs are out of
> your system.
>
> Bob


Perhaps you should heed your own advice after last weeks fantasies...
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine


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In article >,
"." > wrote:

> Omelet > wrote in newsmpomelet-7B3F8F.22005122052010
> @news-wc.giganews.com:
>
>
> >> LOL!! Tried to find it again, but only found a reference to it.
> >>
> >> The concert was held in Mexico City's Zócalo, or main square.
> >>
> >> Mexicans...... protesting against a law that will try and stop their
> >> illegal activities..... you gotta luv it!! :-)

> >
> > Are you surprised?

>
>
> That Mexico City would stage a 'protest concert' decrying another
> countries laws that will try and stamp out Mexicans illegal
> activities...... yes, I was a tad suprised.


I'm not. Some people have this sense of entitlement.
I guess it's hard to understand if you are not afflicted with it.

>
> It must be written into the Mexican Constitution that every citizen must
> try and become a 'wetback'.


<snork>
>
>
>
> > I understand that Australia and England have their
> > own illegal immigrant woes.

>
>
> We have visa 'over-stayers'........ but no real illegal immigration per
> se.
>
> Well, apart from the bloody 'boat people' coming out here and setting
> themselves on fire to gain resident status.
>
> And the visa over stayers are constantly hounded, and found, and deported.
> I can tell you here and now, if any Aussies got wind of any 'illegals' in
> their area, a very quick phone call would be made to the relevant
> authorities.
>
> England is the one with the real problem.


So I have read. ;-(
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine
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In article >,
"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:

> > George Leppla > wrote:
> >
> >> You want to stop illegal immigration... it is easy to do. Make it
> >> against the law to hire illegals. Put any businessman who hires
> >> illegals in jail. Employment of illegals would stop immediately.

>
>
> That has been done and success is limited. When you hire someone you must
> fill out an I-9 form and the onus is on the employer. There are laws
> against robbing convenience stores and J-walking too. They don't seem to be
> 100% effective either.


I had to bring my birth certificate to Orientation at my last job.

And I'm very white!
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine
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In article >,
(Steve Pope) wrote:

> Do you know that in China you can't even travel, move, or
> change jobs internally without government permission? We
> would consider that outrageous here wouldn't we? But how is
> our behavior at our border any different? Fact is, it's
> not any different; national borders are an outdated fiction
> created by rightwingers.


As for the concept of free borders, this might give you pause:

http://tinyurl.com/3567jp7

I've attended more than one lecture by our local SWAT team leader. This
problem is not a joke.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine
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Omelet > wrote in newsmpomelet-E9A5AF.23114322052010
@news-wc.giganews.com:

> In article >,
> (Steve Pope) wrote:
>
>> Do you know that in China you can't even travel, move, or
>> change jobs internally without government permission? We
>> would consider that outrageous here wouldn't we? But how is
>> our behavior at our border any different? Fact is, it's
>> not any different; national borders are an outdated fiction
>> created by rightwingers.

>
> As for the concept of free borders, this might give you pause:
>



Along with the Chinese version is the Russian.

I remember taking a taxi ride from Moscow to the Military training Base I
was staying on. It was a trip of about 60-70k's, and the driver had to go
get a special pass to allow him to do the trip. We had to stop about 4
times (IIRC) and show our passports and he show his paper.

Did I take offence at that? No.... because the taxi ride was a cheap as
chips anyways, and it's the law in their country that you have to do it.
And being a law abiding citizen (most times ;-) I abided by their laws and
didn't whinge about it.


--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia

I was having dinner with my boss and his wife and she said to me, "How

many potatoes would you like Peter?". I said "Ooh, I'll just have one

please". She said "It's OK, you don't have to be polite" "Alright" I

said "I'll just have one then, you stupid cow".
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In article >,
"." > wrote:

> Omelet > wrote in newsmpomelet-E9A5AF.23114322052010
> @news-wc.giganews.com:
>
> > In article >,
> > (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >
> >> Do you know that in China you can't even travel, move, or
> >> change jobs internally without government permission? We
> >> would consider that outrageous here wouldn't we? But how is
> >> our behavior at our border any different? Fact is, it's
> >> not any different; national borders are an outdated fiction
> >> created by rightwingers.

> >
> > As for the concept of free borders, this might give you pause:
> >

>
>
> Along with the Chinese version is the Russian.
>
> I remember taking a taxi ride from Moscow to the Military training Base I
> was staying on. It was a trip of about 60-70k's, and the driver had to go
> get a special pass to allow him to do the trip. We had to stop about 4
> times (IIRC) and show our passports and he show his paper.
>
> Did I take offence at that? No.... because the taxi ride was a cheap as
> chips anyways, and it's the law in their country that you have to do it.
> And being a law abiding citizen (most times ;-) I abided by their laws and
> didn't whinge about it.


If one is going to visit or live in a country, they are obligated to
obey the local laws.

Whether or not you agree with them.

If you can't handle it, don't go there.

I, for one, would not visit Saudi Arabia on a bet!
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine


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"Steve Pope" > wrote
>> Many people would like to live here but if we just opened
>> the doors, it would not be possible to handle them all.

>
> I disagree. As I said, governments should butt out of the business
> of telling people where to live or work. All governments.
> U.S., Mexico, everywhere. There would be a transition of course,
> but it's not like it's impossible or anything. There's always
> a transition when you correct policy errors, but that is
> no reason to throw up your hands and leave them in place.
>
> Do you know that in China you can't even travel, move, or
> change jobs internally without government permission? We
> would consider that outrageous here wouldn't we? But how is
> our behavior at our border any different? Fact is, it's
> not any different; national borders are an outdated fiction
> created by rightwingers.
>
> Steve


While I don't want the government to tell me how to do much of anything,
they do protect its citizens from danger as best they can. Under your
program, anyone can travel at will. Thieves, mobsters, terrorists and other
assorted thugs can just move in next door to you. I prefer they not come.

Your Garden of Eden utopian society sounds nice on paper, but thousands of
years of tribal wars say it has not worked yet. Odds are it will not in our
lifetime. But please, don't let my realistic view on life stop you from
dreaming.



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Om tried to weasel:

> If one is going to visit or live in a country, they are obligated to
> obey the local laws.
>
> Whether or not you agree with them.
>
> If you can't handle it, don't go there.
>
> I, for one, would not visit Saudi Arabia on a bet!


So what was wrong with Calderon's speech? He does NOT live in the USA, and
he didn't break any American laws while he was here. That's what you started
out criticizing: Calderon's speech, and the fact that he was critical of the
new Arizona law.

Now I see that you're trying to change your tune: At first you were all
indignant that Calderon doesn't respect the laws of the USA. Now you're
trying to morph your argument into some kind of conservative law-fearing
evangelism. Have you never heard of civil disobedience, or do you just think
that laws are ALWAYS perfect, and ordinary citizens should just knuckle
under all the time? Are you completely unfamiliar with the history of
protest in the USA?

Bob

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In article >,
"Bob Terwilliger" > wrote:

> Om tried to weasel:
>
> > If one is going to visit or live in a country, they are obligated to
> > obey the local laws.
> >
> > Whether or not you agree with them.
> >
> > If you can't handle it, don't go there.
> >
> > I, for one, would not visit Saudi Arabia on a bet!

>
> So what was wrong with Calderon's speech? He does NOT live in the USA, and
> he didn't break any American laws while he was here. That's what you started
> out criticizing: Calderon's speech, and the fact that he was critical of the
> new Arizona law.
>


He was critical of the law and it does not apply to HIM. Only to the
people living here and he had no right to judge or criticize that.
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine
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Om wrote:

>> So what was wrong with Calderon's speech? He does NOT live in the USA,
>> and he didn't break any American laws while he was here. That's what you
>> started out criticizing: Calderon's speech, and the fact that he was
>> critical of the new Arizona law.

>
> He was critical of the law and it does not apply to HIM. Only to the
> people living here and he had no right to judge or criticize that.


Bullshit: You are critical of the laws of Saudi Arabia, aren't you? He is
not only entitled to his opinion, as the head of state of a neighboring
country (and one which is obviously involved in the illegal-worker issue) he
is OBLIGATED to judge and criticize openly. You just don't like what he
said, and you're incapable of objectivity -- or even rationality.

Just how much salvia divinorum *have* you consumed this week? It has
affected you more severely than you realize.

Bob



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On May 22, 10:10*pm, Omelet > wrote:
> In article >,
> *"Bob Terwilliger" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Om wrote:

>
> > >>> He has no respect for our laws!

>
> > >> Um.. Just how much respect do *you* have for the laws of some foreign
> > >> country? Do you abide by the laws of Saudi Arabia?

>
> > >> Bob

>
> > > If I lived there, I'd have to.
> > > Anyone that lives here should!

>
> > So you believe that Calderon lives in the USA? And is President of Mexico at
> > the same time? Or is it just that you think Mexico is a kind of appendix of
> > Texas?

>
> > Bob

>
> <sigh> No. He is objecting to Arizona law being applied to his illegal
> people that live there.
>
> Are you really this dense in real life?


I'm sure he really is that dense in real life. Plus the fact that he
has NO life whatsoever, and tries to compensate for his miniscule pee-
pee by being an argumentative blowhard jackass on Usenet. It's quite
laughable, really. LOL!
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Omelet > wrote:

> (Steve Pope) wrote:


>> Do you know that in China you can't even travel, move, or
>> change jobs internally without government permission? We
>> would consider that outrageous here wouldn't we? But how is
>> our behavior at our border any different? Fact is, it's
>> not any different; national borders are an outdated fiction
>> created by rightwingers.


>As for the concept of free borders, this might give you pause:
>
>
http://tinyurl.com/3567jp7

>I've attended more than one lecture by our local SWAT team leader. This
>problem is not a joke.


Racist, empire-building cops spreading propoganda. Puh-leeeze,
let's be serious.


Steve
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PVC wrote:

> I'm sure he really is that dense in real life. Plus the fact that he has
> NO life whatsoever


Home so early on a Saturday night? Struck out again, huh? It's okay,
sweetie, I'm sure that there's a guy SOMEWHERE out there for you! Have you
considered moving to the Alaska oilfields? High rate of alcoholism, high
man-to-woman ratio, and nighttime half the year: Even YOU might get lucky!

Bob

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On May 22, 1:54*am, "Giusi" > wrote:
> "Terry Pulliam Burd" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> > Pardon me for saying so, but presenting a Mexican dinner to the> president
> > of Mexico is like carrying coals to Newcastle. <sproing!>> Okay, maybe not
> > coals to Newcastle, but just a bit goofy.

>
> > Whyinhell would you present a native Mexican dish to a, erm, Mexican>
> > native in the White House? Why not present a traditional American> dish? I
> > do not understand giving the guy a meal he gets 24/7 at home?

>
> There are many people who do not like to eat outside their familiar menu,
> most Italians for a start. *They probably asked what he liked and could eat.
>
> Years ago the White House always presented a standard continental menu, then
> under Jackie Kennedy it became more French. *No one gets what is American
> food. *I had a group expat blogging effort trying to expose Italians (in
> Italian) to great American food. *Every time someone published something I
> would think, "American, maybe, but I never had it like that!" *So if we
> cannot agree, what could it be? *Also, most of the stuff mentioned here has
> been completely out of the question for a sit down dinner in evening
> clothes. *Fried Chicken? *Barbecue? *Ruin my Narciso? *I don't think so!


Unless there was a reason not to, I would have done seafood. Some nice
salmon or halibut. Add some nice vegetables with it, some type of
potato, etc.

A couple years ago, we got a visit from the parents of our exchange
student. They actually called when they were two hours away and asked
if they could visit. We had no idea they were traveling in the states.
So, we took them to dinner at a nice Seafood restaurant. We live in
the Seattle area, so there are some nice places. And since they had
taken me to a couple places with seafood when I visited them, I knew
they liked Seafood. The actual choices were different of course, so
they still got something that was different from home.

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Omelet > wrote:

>If one is going to visit or live in a country, they are obligated to
>obey the local laws.
>
>Whether or not you agree with them.
>
>If you can't handle it, don't go there.


But the Americans didn't do this in 1847 did they.

Let's face it, America was founded by ethnic-cleansing slaveowners,
proceeded to illegally invade and wipe out its neighbors and
various others around the globe, and pursues might-is-right
policies whenever that suits its needs, ignoring any applicable
laws left and right.

The idea that Americans, any Americans, including you or anyone
in Arizona, can claim some sort of moral high ground about being
"legal" whereas Mexicans are "illegal" is totally, completely
laughable. Nobody takes that seriously. At all. It's a non-starter.

If you have the physical might to force people you don't like out,
then you win, but don't claim any moral standing, and meanwhile
those with policies like Arizona's are my political enemies and
I'm going to do what I can (legally, of course) to defeat you.

Steve
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On Sat, 22 May 2010 21:01:35 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

> I am glad that they made that change. Even I would not go along with
> the original!


Of course you wouldn't, because it infringed on *your* rights.

--
Forget the health food. I need all the preservatives I can get.
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sf replied to Om:

>> I am glad that they made that change. Even I would not go along with
>> the original!

>
> Of course you wouldn't, because it infringed on *your* rights.


In the last week or so, Om has abandoned all pretense of rationality or
objectivity. She has become brazenly hypocritical and has lost her
(admittedly always tenuous) grasp on reality. Such a radical diminution of
intellectual capacity in such a short time often indicates experimentation
with very powerful mind-altering drugs.

Bob

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Bob Terwilliger > wrote:

>In the last week or so, Om has abandoned all pretense of rationality or
>objectivity. She has become brazenly hypocritical and has lost her
>(admittedly always tenuous) grasp on reality. Such a radical diminution of
>intellectual capacity in such a short time often indicates experimentation
>with very powerful mind-altering drugs.


Give us a break.

Oh wait, you don't do that. ;-)



Steve


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"Omelet" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>> > I don't give a rats ass what color law breakers are. They deserve to go
>> > >> > to jail or be deported.

>>
>> but in this case, they just happen not to be white. completely>>
>> coincidental.


> You don't live in a border state so you have no real investment in the >
> problem. Until you do, you have no right to any uninformed or >
> inexperienced input.


Blake lives in the Washington, DC area, which is crawling with illegal
immigrants from the entire world, not just Mexico. Your not having been
there may be your excuse for not knowing that, but since Blake is an
American he has a right to an opinion on an American problem. Saying
otherwise is un-American in the extreme.


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"Omelet" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> George Leppla > wrote:
>
>> The problem with the Arizona law as it was ORIGINALLY written was that >>
>> the police had the authority to stop anyone at any time to ask them to
>> prove citizen ship.


> I am glad that they made that change. Even I would not go along with >
> the original!


Ask yourself how you would prove citizenship if you were pulled over for a
traffic violation? Last spring I was required to prove citixenship and I
passed over my American passport and was told it wouldn't do. Now I had to
prove I was born in the USA to get that passport, but now it's useless for
the purpose. So all Americans who expect to get anything done need to start
carrying a certified copy of their birth certificate with a raised seal. No
photo of course, no proof that I can see that it's you, but that's what they
wanted. And mine was at home in Italy.


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Giusi wrote:

> Ask yourself how you would prove citizenship if you were pulled over for a
> traffic violation? Last spring I was required to prove citixenship and I
> passed over my American passport and was told it wouldn't do. Now I had
> to prove I was born in the USA to get that passport, but now it's useless
> for the purpose.


You got an ignorant cop. Passports are accepted as proof of citizenship
because they contain a line stating your place of birth -- which is all a
birth certificate would show anyway. There's probably nothing you could have
shown which would have convinced him.

Bob

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"Bob Terwilliger" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...
> Giusi wrote:
>
>> Ask yourself how you would prove citizenship if you were pulled over for
>> a
>> traffic violation? Last spring I was required to prove citixenship and I
>> passed over my American passport and was told it wouldn't do. Now I had
>> to prove I was born in the USA to get that passport, but now it's useless
>> for the purpose.

>
> You got an ignorant cop. Passports are accepted as proof of citizenship
> because they contain a line stating your place of birth -- which is all a
> birth certificate would show anyway. There's probably nothing you could
> have
> shown which would have convinced him.


It was the Maryland DMV. Homeland security rules change. Check into it.
Born and reared in the USA and I cannot prove it to their satisfaction.
There is a huge hole in the thinking there. You let me (albeit with great
difficulty) into the country with this document, but you won't allow me to
use it to prove my identity for driving records?


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Giusi wrote:

> It was the Maryland DMV. Homeland security rules change. Check into it.
> Born and reared in the USA and I cannot prove it to their satisfaction.
> There is a huge hole in the thinking there. You let me (albeit with great
> difficulty) into the country with this document, but you won't allow me to
> use it to prove my identity for driving records?


http://www.mva.maryland.gov/Driver-S...pply/proof.htm

Source Documents for Age and Identity:
• Valid, unexpired U.S. passport*
*Also satisfies lawful presence requirements.

Whoever told you that a passport doesn't meet the requirements was speaking
out of ignorance. It sucks when bureaucrats don't know their own rules.

Bob



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"Bob Terwilliger" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> Giusi wrote:
>
>> It was the Maryland DMV. Homeland security rules change. Check into
>> it.>> Born and reared in the USA and I cannot prove it to their
>> satisfaction.
>> There is a huge hole in the thinking there. You let me (albeit with
>> great>> difficulty) into the country with this document, but you won't
>> allow me to
>> use it to prove my identity for driving records?

>
> http://www.mva.maryland.gov/Driver-S...pply/proof.htm
>
> Source Documents for Age and Identity:
> • Valid, unexpired U.S. passport*
> *Also satisfies lawful presence requirements.
>
> Whoever told you that a passport doesn't meet the requirements was
> speaking> out of ignorance. It sucks when bureaucrats don't know their own
> rules.


When it is the clerk who is responsible for letting you go on to achieve
some task, and she claims the only way to prove that's you is a certified
birth certificate, and that certificate is in your safe over 3000 miles
away, one could consider this illustrative.

What if I were brown skinned and had an accent? What if it wasn't a clerk
but a jumpy small town cop? Should he be able to pistol whip me or handcuff
me or harass me in any way at all because he is ignorant? Where are my
rights in this? Why do some Americans think whatever happens to me is worth
the security they feel if the law allows me to be abused? It's all false,
anyway, because most crooks know how to overcome challenges. Fake documents
are things people like me don't know how to get, but they do.


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"." > ha scritto nel messaggio
(Steve Pope) wrote in news:htafah$2gh$7

>> If you have the physical might to force people you don't like out,>> then
>> you win, but don't claim any moral standing, and meanwhile>> those with
>> policies like Arizona's are my political enemies and
>> I'm going to do what I can (legally, of course) to defeat you.


Because the lawfully elected government is enacting a law that basically
says > people are going to have their citizenship checked, you don't agree
with it?
>
> Are you an illegal? You certainly sound like it.


No, most literate Americans believe in freedom. Neither SP nor I is an
illegal anywhere. Even if we are not challenged ourselves, we would like to
defend the rights of those who are.

There is no such thing as an ID card in the USA and most Americans do not
have a passport. So how does someone prove they are a citizen? Drivers
license? Half the teenagers in the US have a fake one that says they are
old enough to drink.


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Giusi wrote:

>> Source Documents for Age and Identity:
>> • Valid, unexpired U.S. passport*
>> *Also satisfies lawful presence requirements.
>>
>> Whoever told you that a passport doesn't meet the requirements was
>> speaking> out of ignorance. It sucks when bureaucrats don't know their
>> own rules.

>
> When it is the clerk who is responsible for letting you go on to achieve
> some task, and she claims the only way to prove that's you is a certified
> birth certificate, and that certificate is in your safe over 3000 miles
> away, one could consider this illustrative.


As I said, it sucks when bureaucrats don't know their own rules. There's
very little recourse when faced with stiff-necked ignorance on the part of a
petty insecure individual with a little bit of power, especially in a busy
office with little central supervision. The part that really sucks is that
it's not YOUR job to know the regulations, it's HERS -- and she failed.


> What if I were brown skinned and had an accent? What if it wasn't a clerk
> but a jumpy small town cop? Should he be able to pistol whip me or
> handcuff me or harass me in any way at all because he is ignorant?


In a word, yes, he is PHYSICALLY ABLE to do that, and many cops would not
hesitate to do it, even though it is obviously not legally allowable:
Countless atrocities are perpetrated every day by small-town cops. There's
no conscientious oversight or accountability. The stereotype is that this
happens in the South and in big cities like Los Angeles, but the truth is
that it's everywhere.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...rm=badge-heavy


> Where are my rights in this?


On paper. Only on paper.


> Why do some Americans think whatever happens to me is worth the security
> they feel if the law allows me to be abused?


Because Om is willing for you to make that sacrifice.

Bob

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On May 22, 1:30*pm, sf > wrote:
> On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:02:17 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> > They don't pay taxes. I do and I'm sick of supporting their illegal
> > asses!

>
> You're listening to too many talking heads on Fox. *They pay the same
> taxes on goods and services that you pay. *They just don't pay income
> tax, because it's illegal to do so. *Take a breath and think about
> *how* they get that income you don't want them to have. *It's somebody
> just like you who hires them by the hour and pays them under the table
> or some unscrupulous employer who is taking advantage of their
> situation. *I'd be more angry about SSI abuse if I were you. *
>



Don't you think that missing income tax would help to fund schools,
hospitals, roads, welfare, etc? It's a lot harder to keep these
services going when there are fewer people paying for them and more
people accepting them.



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> ha scritto nel messaggio On May 22, 1:30 pm, sf
> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:02:17 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> > They don't pay taxes. I do and I'm sick of supporting their illegal> >
> > asses!

>

They pay the same> taxes on goods and services that you pay. They just don't
pay income> tax, because it's illegal to do so. Take a breath and think
about
> *how* they get that income you don't want them to have. It's somebody>
> just like you who hires them by the hour and pays them under the table
> or some unscrupulous employer who is taking advantage of their> situation.
> I'd be more angry about SSI abuse if I were you.
>



Don't you think that missing income tax would help to fund
schools,hospitals, roads, welfare, etc?

Collect them from the companies that hire these people because they can get
away with paying them almost nothing and offering them no benefits.
Employee costs go way beyond salaries, as I know only too well.

You blame the poor and hungry, deperate to work. I blame the employers who
are not hungry just cheap.


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On May 23, 12:49*am, "Giusi" > wrote:
> > ha scritto nel messaggio On May 22, 1:30 pm, > wrote:
> > On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:02:17 -0500, Omelet >
> > wrote:

>
> > > They don't pay taxes. I do and I'm sick of supporting their illegal> >
> > > asses!

>
> They pay the same> taxes on goods and services that you pay. They just don't
> pay income> tax, because it's illegal to do so. Take a breath and think
> about
>
> > *how* they get that income you don't want them to have. It's somebody>
> > just like you who hires them by the hour and pays them under the table
> > or some unscrupulous employer who is taking advantage of their> situation.
> > I'd be more angry about SSI abuse if I were you.

>
> Don't you think that missing income tax would help to fund
> schools,hospitals, roads, welfare, etc?
>
> Collect them from the companies that hire these people because they can get
> away with paying them almost nothing and offering them no benefits.
> Employee costs go way beyond salaries, as I know only too well.
>
> You blame the poor and hungry, deperate to work. *I blame the employers who
> are not hungry just cheap.


And those same employers will just pass along the cost to the
customers. So, we still get to pay for it.

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On 5/22/2010 10:26 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> George Leppla > wrote:
>>
>>> You want to stop illegal immigration... it is easy to do. Make it
>>> against the law to hire illegals. Put any businessman who hires
>>> illegals in jail. Employment of illegals would stop immediately.

>
>
> That has been done and success is limited. When you hire someone you
> must fill out an I-9 form and the onus is on the employer. There are
> laws against robbing convenience stores and J-walking too. They don't
> seem to be 100% effective either.


I think the current fine is $250 per incident. Wow!

Try making the fine $25,000 and a mandatory 1 year in the calaboose for
EACH illegal hired and all of a sudden you will see just how responsible
business can be.

And I am all for immigration.... legally. I doubt that many reading
this group are native Americans. My father's parents were born in Germany.

AND... I always get a huge laugh out of the guys they interview on TV
screaming that the "Immigrants are coming here taking our jobs." Tell
you what, Bubba.... if some illegal who doesn't speak English can walk
in and take your job, the fact is that you probably ain't too bright and
aren't a very good worker in the first place. You should have thought
of that before you dropped out of school in the ninth grade.

George L
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sometime in the recent past Omelet posted this:
> In article
> >,
> " > wrote:
>
>> On May 21, 10:01 pm, Omelet > wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> Besides, our local Taco Bell serves some of the best Mexican food in
>>> town. Just because your local one sucks means you have a bad manager.
>>> Don't condemn the entire franchise.
>>> --

>> I'm not thrilled with the Mexican president either, but I wanted to
>> mention that Taco Bell doesn't serve Mexican food. It serves food that
>> Americans think is Mexican.

>
> I agree with that, but it's still quite good.

So Taco Bell good, Rick Bayless bad. OK, I get it now.
>
>> I had a Mexican exchange student for a
>> year, and she didn't recognize a lot of the food served at fast food
>> places and Mexican restaurants.

>
> Okay, let's call it what it is then. Tex-mex or Americanized Mexican
> food. Bayless does not cook "real" mexican food either.

Tex-mex is just a good chilli without the beans. No sir, no beaners in my
chilli.
>
>> Most of the food they served me was not something I would ever find at
>> a Mexican restaurant. Some of it was very similar to ours such as
>> chicken and mashed potatoes (they were the BEST mashed potatoes I have
>> ever eaten, my own attempts have never been that good). There were a
>> few meals there that I would love to have again. But I have not been
>> able to copy them well enough to enjoy them like I did there.
>>
>> Most restaurants that cater to American customers convert their food
>> to our tastes. For example, I work at a deli with a China Express. It
>> has the typical menu of a Chinese restaurant. We've had the Chinese
>> food since 1991, and a good half of my coworkers are Chinese. They do
>> not buy any of it. And the food they eat in the breakroom looks
>> nothing like the food we serve.

>
> Fascinating isn't it? :-)
> I'm considering asking my Chinese business acquaintances in Shanghai for
> recipes...



--
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sometime in the recent past Omelet posted this:
> In article >,
> "Bob Terwilliger" > wrote:
>
>> Om wrote:
>>
>>>>> He has no respect for our laws!
>>>> Um.. Just how much respect do *you* have for the laws of some foreign
>>>> country? Do you abide by the laws of Saudi Arabia?
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>> If I lived there, I'd have to.
>>> Anyone that lives here should!

>> So you believe that Calderon lives in the USA? And is President of Mexico at
>> the same time? Or is it just that you think Mexico is a kind of appendix of
>> Texas?
>>
>> Bob

>
> <sigh> No. He is objecting to Arizona law being applied to his illegal

I would think he is objecting to the Arizona law being applied to 'our'
legal Americans that live there.
> people that live there.
>
> Are you really this dense in real life?



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