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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Periut
 
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Katra wrote:
>
> Richard Periut wrote:
>
>>Levelwave© wrote:
>>
>>>Z GIRL wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Katra that sounds like a Lab error to me. In my background with 10
>>>>years in
>>>>the medical field I have never ever heard of a drop that drastic in that
>>>>short period of time with out it being related to another health issue
>>>>such
>>>>as Liver etc, or it being a lab error.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Nope... She's correct... Refined flour and starchy carbs is *solely*
>>>responsible for this nations obesity and heart disease epidemic...
>>>Grains are for peasants... or rabbits... it's trash food... Go two weeks
>>>eating only Meat and non-starchy vegetables... you will feel strange for
>>>about 3 days but after that you will feel better than you *ever* have in
>>>your life... Dr. Atkins (though not the first advocate) will go down in
>>>the history books for his "Diet Revolution"... and a revolution it is...
>>>for the US anyway...
>>>
>>>~john!
>>>
>>>

>>
>>After reading this, I can only say that you are so friggin uninformed
>>and clue less, that I'm not even going to bother with a friggin
>>numbskull like you.
>>
>>Richard
>>
>>--

>
>
> <sigh>
> All I ask is that you try it..


>
> A two week trial is NOT going to kill you, if you have high blood lipid
> levels! And can afford to have the tests run.
>
> Providing you have the self discipline to truly stick to it. It's not
> all that easy at first!
>
> My downfall is my nightly glass of wine habit. :-( Wine is high in
> sugar.


Grape juice is high in sugar, and unless you are drinking Manishewitz
(spelling?) most of the sugars in wine have been fermented into alcohol.

Unless you are a pre diabetic or diabetic, you shouldn't worry about an
occasional sugar and starch load. The problem is not the carbo's, you
need them; the problem is in over eating or not exercising enough to
burn what you have consumed.

Beware of the snake oils. Humans evolved (in the hundreds of thousands
of years,) eating fruits and starchy tubers. The problem is you had to
hunt and work hard to sustain yourself. Today, highly processed foods,
and a combination of stress and sedentary life style, contribute to CAD
and other vascular phenomena.

Richard

I also love whole wheat pita bread stuffed full of Alfalfa sprouts.
>
> K.
> --




--
"..A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava
beans and a nice chianti..."

Hannibal "The Cannibal"

Silence Of The Lambs 1991

  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Arri London
 
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Katra wrote:
>
> John Gaughan wrote:
> >
> > Z GIRL wrote:
> > > Katra that sounds like a Lab error to me. In my background with 10
> > > years in the medical field I have never ever heard of a drop that
> > > drastic in that short period of time with out it being related to
> > > another health issue such as Liver etc, or it being a lab error.

> >
> > You are correct, it takes a month or two for lipid levels to drop that
> > much. Something else must have been wrong.
> >
> > --
> > John Gaughan

>
> Look. He had run them in the past and they were always that high... It
> was NOT the first time!
>
> And we repeated the second (14 day) sample to check the results.
>
> We are not stupid and we did not believe the results at first either!
>
> That is one hell of a change for that short a period of time.
>
> But, as I said before, this was just one individual. YMMV. :-)
>
> K.
>
>


Exactly. It's unlikely to be significant for a population, or such drops
would be reported more frequently in the dietary and medical literature
(and they aren't).
  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Arri London
 
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Katra wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
> >
> > Levelwave© wrote:
> > >
> > > Dave Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > > It's all too confusing for me. I prefer to go by the
> > > > Mediterranean diet. "They" say that French and Italians
> > > > have a lot of garlic and drink red wine and that something
> > > > in that diet helps to reduce cholesterol. That is simple
> > > > enough ot understand and works for me.
> > >
> > > The French and Italians don't eat Pop Tarts... *that's* the reason...
> > > not because they eat lots of garlic or drink red wine... (though it
> > > doesn't hurt)...
> > >
> > > ~john!
> > >
> > >

> > But they eat a lot of white bread and pasta and potatoes. The answer
> > isn't that simple, when discussing a population, rather than
> > individuals.

>
> That is actually a valid point...
>
> Al's results are exceptional, and he is just one person.
>
> This would have to be tested on a minimum of 20 people, preferably more
> like 100 for a good sample.
>
> If you could get them to truly comply.
>
> Thing is, Atkins was a cardiologist.
>
> He tested his theories on hundreds of his patients.
>
> And got consistant results...
>
> K.
>
>


Yes, but people have got similar results on low fat diets (as in
Ornish), lowered calorie diets and with no diets at all, but other
changes in lifestyle.
  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Arri London
 
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zxcvbob wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
> > "" wrote:
> >
> >>A question for the food chemists;
> >>
> >>My cholesterol level is getting to the
> >>"we must do something about this" level.
> >>
> >>My doctor went into a tirade about
> >>polys and trans-fats, and hydrogenation.......
> >>But either he didn't explain it well,
> >>or it was just too much jargon to assimilate.
> >>
> >>I've been doing some research, and,
> >>tried reading food labels, but they seem to contradict.
> >>
> >>Do I care about;
> >>Total fat ? Partially saturated ? Unsaturated ?
> >>Is there a web-site that sorts this out ?
> >>Better yet.... which foods/ingredients to avoid.
> >>Is there an easy "hook" that'll help me remember these ?
> >>
> >><rj>
> >>
> >><rj>

> >
> >
> > We just went to a dietary seminar at the local heart hospital about
> > this. This information is based on their own patient statistics,
> > regarding blood chemistry and types of heart disease. This is from the
> > notes that I took and the printed info they provided.
> >
> > The general drift was, first, that intake of dietary *cholesterol*
> > doesn't affect blood cholesterol levels for many, but not all people.
> > Then the intake of saturated fats and trans-fats doesn't affect blood
> > cholesterol much for most, but not all people. However, it can
> > contribute to clogging arteries anyway, in a variety of other mechanisms
> > (which they didn't discuss).
> >
> > Total serum cholesterol isn't the whole story, no matter what. There are
> > other factors which contribute to heart disease, such as the balance of
> > cholesterol types and triglycerides, plus the usual suspects of
> > overweight, stress and smoking.
> >
> > There is *no* dietary need for trans-fats, which are mostly synthetic
> > anyway or for saturated fats (those fats which are solid at room temp).
> >
> > Lowering total fat somewhat for many people will lower calories, which
> > isn't a bad thing over all, given that most Americans are overweight.
> >
> > Excessive refined carbohydrates (white flour, white sugar etc) will
> > contribute to the wrong distribution of triglycerides in many, but not
> > all, people. Since there isn't any dietary need for refined carbs, might
> > as well cut down on those too.
> >
> > The summary was: cut down on saturated and trans-fats, which aren't
> > necessary to the diet. Cut down on refined carbohydrates, which also
> > aren't necessary to the diet. Eat lots of greens, whole grains and
> > fruits and vegs. Use natural vegetable oils in place of solid fats
> > (including margarine) in cooking.
> >
> > Get exercise! Many of their patients bring their cholesterol ratios and
> > triglycerides back into line with exercise and minor modifications of
> > diet.
> >
> > That's about it from the heart hospital.

>
> No mention of high blood levels of iron?


As few people get high serum iron strictly from their diets, it isn't a
factor in the absence of supplementation or certain iron-hoarding
conditions. The dietician didn't go into that, so presumably it isn't a
problem with their particular patient population. Also no particular
'named' diet was recommended, so presumably that doesn't matter in the
long run either.
>
> There's a pretty good theory that premenopausal women have low incidence of
> heart attacks and coronary artery disease because they are always a little
> anemic from their monthly blood loss -- nothing at all to do with estrogen
> and everything to do with iron levels.


That's still being debated of course. Some studies I've looked at say it
isn't so and others say it is. It's pretty complicated because people
with low levels of iron (such as from red cell diseases or starvation)
will die of something else before any heart disease develops.


Men and post-menopause women have
> no way of shedding excess iron because the body hoards iron so effectively.
>
> It's one reason I give blood regularly.
>
> Best regards,
> Bob

  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
Arri London
 
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Katra wrote:
>
> "" wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:03:54 -0700, Arri London >
> > wrote:
> >

> <snipped for brevity>
> >
> > This looks like an answer that I can use !
> >
> > Reduce carbs ( a-la Atkins )
> > Reduce saturated fats.
> > Increase Veggies.
> >
> > I can do this !!
> >
> > Thanks
> > <rj>

>
> And join your local gym... :-)
>
> K.
>
>


Absolutely! Just about every cardiologist I've ever talked with
advocates a reasonable level of exercise.


  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
Arri London
 
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"" wrote:
>
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:03:54 -0700, Arri London >
> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> I've been doing some research, and,
> >> tried reading food labels, but they seem to contradict.
> >>
> >> Do I care about;
> >> Total fat ? Partially saturated ? Unsaturated ?
> >> Is there a web-site that sorts this out ?
> >> Better yet.... which foods/ingredients to avoid.
> >> Is there an easy "hook" that'll help me remember these ?
> >>
> >> <rj>
> >>
> >> <rj>

> >
> >We just went to a dietary seminar at the local heart hospital about
> >this. This information is based on their own patient statistics,
> >regarding blood chemistry and types of heart disease. This is from the
> >notes that I took and the printed info they provided.
> >
> >The general drift was, first, that intake of dietary *cholesterol*
> >doesn't affect blood cholesterol levels for many, but not all people.
> >Then the intake of saturated fats and trans-fats doesn't affect blood
> >cholesterol much for most, but not all people. However, it can
> >contribute to clogging arteries anyway, in a variety of other mechanisms
> >(which they didn't discuss).
> >
> >Total serum cholesterol isn't the whole story, no matter what. There are
> >other factors which contribute to heart disease, such as the balance of
> >cholesterol types and triglycerides, plus the usual suspects of
> >overweight, stress and smoking.
> >
> >There is *no* dietary need for trans-fats, which are mostly synthetic
> >anyway or for saturated fats (those fats which are solid at room temp).
> >
> >Lowering total fat somewhat for many people will lower calories, which
> >isn't a bad thing over all, given that most Americans are overweight.
> >
> >Excessive refined carbohydrates (white flour, white sugar etc) will
> >contribute to the wrong distribution of triglycerides in many, but not
> >all, people. Since there isn't any dietary need for refined carbs, might
> >as well cut down on those too.
> >
> >The summary was: cut down on saturated and trans-fats, which aren't
> >necessary to the diet. Cut down on refined carbohydrates, which also
> >aren't necessary to the diet. Eat lots of greens, whole grains and
> >fruits and vegs. Use natural vegetable oils in place of solid fats
> >(including margarine) in cooking.
> >
> >Get exercise! Many of their patients bring their cholesterol ratios and
> >triglycerides back into line with exercise and minor modifications of
> >diet.
> >
> >That's about it from the heart hospital.

>
> This looks like an answer that I can use !
>
> Reduce carbs ( a-la Atkins )
> Reduce saturated fats.
> Increase Veggies.
>
> I can do this !!
>
> Thanks
> <rj>


Keep in mind that the Atkins diet is a little extreme regarding carbs;
the hospital dietician didn't recommend it for long-term. Few people
stay on it for all that long and it didn't seem to make any difference
in the long-term rate of heart disease in their patient population. They
weren't all that thrilled with the very low-fat Ornish diet either and
it also didn't make much difference in long-term rate of heart disease
in their patient population.

It's easier to cut down on white sugars, white flour and junk food in
general, rather than trying to get rid of all carbs. Also forgot to
mention that *fibre* is essential in cutting down serum cholesterol and
triglycerides (as well as reducing the risk of colon cancer). A true
Atkins diet is too low in fibre in the long term and requires
supplementation for most people.
  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
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"<RJ>" > wrote in message
...
> A question for the food chemists;
>
> My cholesterol level is getting to the
> "we must do something about this" level.
>
> My doctor went into a tirade about
> polys and trans-fats, and hydrogenation.......
> But either he didn't explain it well,
> or it was just too much jargon to assimilate.
>
> I've been doing some research, and,
> tried reading food labels, but they seem to contradict.
>
> Do I care about;
> Total fat ? Partially saturated ? Unsaturated ?
> Is there a web-site that sorts this out ?
> Better yet.... which foods/ingredients to avoid.
> Is there an easy "hook" that'll help me remember these ?
>
> <rj>


Believe about 1% of what you read here.

The reality is you're screwing with your life or worse, and yes I think
there are worse things like dying.

There are a lot of varied opinions about causes as well as reduction
methods. The only thing for almost certain is the medications have a very
good success rate as do some diet regimes as well as supplements.

I would recommend the following:

1. Start reading here the American Heart Association.

http://www.americanheart.org/present...tifier=1200000

2. Read a little more he

http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH...0/408/408.html

3. more he

http://www.zocor.com/simvastatin/zoc...mer/index2.jsp

4. and here

http://www.lipitor.com/

check out some of the studies on Atkins diet and cholesterol.

Finally talk frankly to your physician and tell him/her you don't
understand? Remember you're paying through the nose for a SERVICE.

Good Luck,

Dimitri

FYI - Personally I am on zocor and I watch what I eat - I don't use
processed foods and I almost exclusively use real Butter, cream, and mostly
EVOO - for over 1 year I've had an overall count between 150 and 160.



  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
John Gaughan
 
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Arri London wrote:
> It's easier to cut down on white sugars, white flour and junk food in
> general, rather than trying to get rid of all carbs.


Very true. I am a perfect example. Luckily Adkins isn't about getting
rid of all carbs (except induction). I eat carbs on Adkins and do fine.
I eat whole wheat bread and vegetables, mostly. Every once in a while
I'll have a pizza too.

> A true Atkins diet is too low in fibre in the long term and requires
> supplementation for most people.


That depends. On the Adkins diet you should have enough fiber, but not
everyone follows the diet well enough. He had a section of a chapter on
the dangers of not getting enough fiber and how to avoid it (and still
maintain low carb levels).

--
John Gaughan
http://www.johngaughan.net/


  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
Levelwave©
 
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Dimitri wrote:

> Believe about 1% of what you read here.



You claim only 1% of "what you read here" is true... Yet you give links
confirming what 100% of the posts already state...

Have you tried weaning yourself off of Zocor to see if your Cholesterol
remains where it is?...

~john!

  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Levelwave©
 
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Arri London wrote:

> Keep in mind that the Atkins diet is a little extreme regarding carbs;
> the hospital dietician didn't recommend it for long-term. Few people
> stay on it for all that long and it didn't seem to make any difference
> in the long-term rate of heart disease in their patient population. They
> weren't all that thrilled with the very low-fat Ornish diet either and
> it also didn't make much difference in long-term rate of heart disease
> in their patient population.



What you say is true for this *particular* study... but remember it's
only one... Don't forget about the study earlier this year where the
Atkin's Diet substantially outperformed the AMA's diet...


> It's easier to cut down on white sugars, white flour and junk food in
> general, rather than trying to get rid of all carbs. Also forgot to
> mention that *fibre* is essential in cutting down serum cholesterol and
> triglycerides (as well as reducing the risk of colon cancer). A true
> Atkins diet is too low in fibre in the long term and requires
> supplementation for most people.



Only during the Induction phase... The main problem with the Atkin's
diet is that far too many people have no clue how to cook for themselves
so they end up gorging on the wrong fatty foods... Whereas I may have
some Salmon with steamed veggies someone else may be eating Bacon,
Sausage and Eggs all day long... I believe the real key is giving up
processed and refined foods...

~john!


--
Say hello to the rug's topography...It holds quite a lot of interest
with your face down on it...



  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
j.j.
 
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Hark! I heard Arri London > say:

<snip>

> Excessive refined carbohydrates (white flour, white sugar etc) will
> contribute to the wrong distribution of triglycerides in many, but not
> all, people. Since there isn't any dietary need for refined carbs, might
> as well cut down on those too.


Does that include white rice as well?

I honestly didn't know the difference between brown and white rice
until I went to the "Seattle Cooks" show last month -- a guy at the
"S&W Foods" booth explained that white rice is just brown rice with
the husk removed. That seems overly refined to me. I made crock pot
Chicken & Rice on Sunday, and used a combination of brown and white
rice, just to try it out (had never eaten brown rice that I know of).
The family actually liked it better...


--
j.j. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!
  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
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"Levelwave©" > wrote in message
...
> Dimitri wrote:
>
> > Believe about 1% of what you read here.

>
>
> You claim only 1% of "what you read here" is true... Yet you give links
> confirming what 100% of the posts already state...
>
> Have you tried weaning yourself off of Zocor to see if your Cholesterol
> remains where it is?...
>
> ~john!


My physician is in the process of doing that. We are progressively reducing
the dosage. I should also mention I have a CBC done every 3 months - a
little extra caution is OK with me.

Dimitri


  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
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Levelwave© wrote:
>
> Dimitri wrote:
>
> > Believe about 1% of what you read here.

>
> You claim only 1% of "what you read here" is true... Yet you give links
> confirming what 100% of the posts already state...
>
> Have you tried weaning yourself off of Zocor to see if your Cholesterol
> remains where it is?...
>
> ~john!


Zocor almost killed Mark's wife. :-(
It caused her to have a stroke and throw multiple blood clots to the
lungs... It's a known side effect according to the PDR.

Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
the gym) before trying statins!

K.
  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
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Dimitri wrote:
>
> "Levelwave©" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Dimitri wrote:
> >
> > > Believe about 1% of what you read here.

> >
> >
> > You claim only 1% of "what you read here" is true... Yet you give links
> > confirming what 100% of the posts already state...
> >
> > Have you tried weaning yourself off of Zocor to see if your Cholesterol
> > remains where it is?...
> >
> > ~john!

>
> My physician is in the process of doing that. We are progressively reducing
> the dosage. I should also mention I have a CBC done every 3 months - a
> little extra caution is OK with me.
>
> Dimitri


I hope the hell you are having a PT/PTT done too..... and maybe a D-dimer.

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<


"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra
  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
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"Katra" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> > My physician is in the process of doing that. We are progressively

reducing
> > the dosage. I should also mention I have a CBC done every 3 months - a
> > little extra caution is OK with me.
> >
> > Dimitri

>
> I hope the hell you are having a PT/PTT done too..... and maybe a

D-dimer.
>
> K.
>


YEP -

You have no ideal how well I am monitored, however the only anticoagulant I
use is ASA.

Dimitri

FYI;

Prothrombin time (PT) and partial thromboplastin time (PTT) tests are used
to evaluate the extrinsic coagulation system. They may also aid in screening
for congenital deficiencies of factors II, V, VII, X as well as deficiencies
of prothrombin dysfibrinogenemia, and afibrinogenemia. Levels of PT and PTT
can determine heparin effect, warfarin anticoagulant therapy, liver failure,
disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC), vitamin K deficiency.

Prothrombin time (PT)
This test is used to evaluate the adequacy of the extrinsic system and
common pathway in the clotting mechanism. Prothrombin time (PT) test
provides a control for long-term anticoagulant therapy that usually involves
the use of a coumarin derivative (eg, Coumadin®).This therapy attempts to
impede thrombus formation without the threat of mortality from hemorrhage.

Partial Thromboplastin Time
This test is used to evaluate the intrinsic coagulation system. It is also
used to monitor heparin therapy, to aid in detecting classical hemophilia A,
Christmas disease, and detection of congenital deficiencies of factors II,
V, VIII, IX, X, XI, and XII. PTT is used to screen for the presence of
dysfibrinogenemia, disseminated intravascular coagulation, liver failure,
congenital hypofibrinogenemia, vitamin K deficiency, congenital deficiency
of Fitzgerald factor, congenital deficiency of prekallikrein, high molecular
weight kininogen, and circulatory anticoagulant.




  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
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"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Levelwave© wrote:
> >
>>

> Zocor almost killed Mark's wife. :-(
> It caused her to have a stroke and throw multiple blood clots to the
> lungs... It's a known side effect according to the PDR.


I what incedents? How many out of 1000 people? Then how was it documents
that Zocor was the specific cause?




> Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
> the gym) before trying statins!


Your choice.

Dimitri


  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
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Dimitri wrote:
>
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
>
> > > My physician is in the process of doing that. We are progressively

> reducing
> > > the dosage. I should also mention I have a CBC done every 3 months - a
> > > little extra caution is OK with me.
> > >
> > > Dimitri

> >
> > I hope the hell you are having a PT/PTT done too..... and maybe a

> D-dimer.
> >
> > K.
> >

>
> YEP -
>
> You have no ideal how well I am monitored, however the only anticoagulant I
> use is ASA.
>
> Dimitri
>
> FYI;
>

<snipped>

That was why I suggested the D-dimer...
It is common in a lot of laboratories and can "detect" somewhat whether
or not you are developing blood clots.

Microclots, not detectable by a lung scan, is what killed my mother.

Had nothing to do with Zocor with her, but it is what almost killed
Mark's wife!

Just FYI! :-)

Oh, and ASA is a better clot preventor than many people think... AFAIK anyway.

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<


"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra
  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
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Dimitri wrote:
>
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Levelwave© wrote:
> > >
> >>

> > Zocor almost killed Mark's wife. :-(
> > It caused her to have a stroke and throw multiple blood clots to the
> > lungs... It's a known side effect according to the PDR.

>
> I what incedents? How many out of 1000 people? Then how was it documents
> that Zocor was the specific cause?
>
> > Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
> > the gym) before trying statins!

>
> Your choice.
>
> Dimitri


Look it up in the 2003 PDR... :-)

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<


"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra
  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Periut
 
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Katra wrote:
>
> Dimitri wrote:
>
>>"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>My physician is in the process of doing that. We are progressively
>>>

>>reducing
>>
>>>>the dosage. I should also mention I have a CBC done every 3 months - a
>>>>little extra caution is OK with me.
>>>>
>>>>Dimitri
>>>
>>>I hope the hell you are having a PT/PTT done too..... and maybe a

>>
>>D-dimer.
>>
>>>K.
>>>

>>
>>YEP -
>>
>>You have no ideal how well I am monitored, however the only anticoagulant I
>>use is ASA.
>>
>>Dimitri
>>
>>FYI;
>>

>
> <snipped>
>
> That was why I suggested the D-dimer...
> It is common in a lot of laboratories and can "detect" somewhat whether
> or not you are developing blood clots.
>
> Microclots, not detectable by a lung scan, is what killed my mother.
>
> Had nothing to do with Zocor with her, but it is what almost killed
> Mark's wife!
>
> Just FYI! :-)
>
> Oh, and ASA is a better clot preventor than many people think... AFAIK anyway.
>
> K.
>


Oy! Every time I click on a post that has the word Cholesterol, or some
other related subject, I literally fall off my chair!

To do D-dimer (first you haven't mentioned what type,) and coags studies
on patients receiving statins, would be very much cost ineffective.

This reaction of statins producing clots, has got to be one of the
rarest. Matter of fact, I know of no physician, that routinely do coags
on patients on statins, unless they suspect hepatic insufficiency.
Matter of fact, it has been documented that statins may actually help
preventing clots from forming; but FDA has not approved this drug for
anything of the sort.

The drug can cause a vasculitis, and this could induce a hypercoagulable
state, but this would be next to very, very rare.

Next in order for clots to kill a person, they must produce significant
alterations in perfusion. This would of been evident on a plain
perfusion scan. Unless you are talking about a massive showering of
clots to the lungs, in which case, still wouldn't kill the patient,
unless they organized and obstructed the pulmonary artery to such a
significant degree, that cardiac output would reach close to zero and
hypoxemia would be so profound, that not even mechanical ventilation and
100 % oxygen would remedy it.

If you find a case, in which it is well documented, please let me know,
and I'll be the first one to present it in our weekly journal club.

Also, for previous posters; aspirin is NOT an anticoagulant. It is a
anti platelet aggregation drug.

I could go on and on about correcting the absurdities I've been reading
here over that past days, but no amount of posting is going to change
their fixations.

Suffice it to say that certain people here should talk more about food,
rather than little things they pick up on google and by reading here and
there. As I said, to know a little bit, can be very dangerous at times;
especially when you are dispensing advice (practicing medicine IMO,) to
someone else.

Richard



--
"..A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava
beans and a nice chianti..."

Hannibal "The Cannibal"

Silence Of The Lambs 1991

  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dan Abel
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL

In article >, "Dimitri"
> wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...



> > Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
> > the gym) before trying statins!

>
> Your choice.



No. Statins are prescription drugs, and it is the choice of the doctor.
My HMO is very clear. They ask the patients to try exercise and diet
first, and then have another test after 3 months. If it still is too
high, then they will prescribe medication.


Of course, every patient is different, not to mention every doctor.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS



  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Periut
 
Posts: n/a
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Dan Abel wrote:
> In article >, "Dimitri"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Katra" > wrote in message
...

>
>
>
>>>Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
>>>the gym) before trying statins!

>>
>>Your choice.

>
>
>
> No. Statins are prescription drugs, and it is the choice of the doctor.
> My HMO is very clear. They ask the patients to try exercise and diet
> first, and then have another test after 3 months. If it still is too
> high, then they will prescribe medication.
>
>
> Of course, every patient is different, not to mention every doctor.
>


Very correct Dan.

There is the mediocre, and then there is the well informed physician.
The latter will try radical life style modifications (which exercise is
one of the main ones,) then offer chemotherapy(ies) if the former has
not impacted.

The FDA would not approve drugs, unless there is a positive benefit to
risk ratio. Statins can produce serious liver damage, especially in the
elder, those who abuse alcohol, and those that are other hepatotoxic
medications (who have slipped through the cracks of a careless
physician.) But then again, for those at high risk, a 3 mm clot in your
left main coronary, can render your heart a useless bag of fibrillating
muscle, with Mr. Death greeting you at the door : )

Richard

--
"..A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava
beans and a nice chianti..."

Hannibal "The Cannibal"

Silence Of The Lambs 1991

  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
Levelwave©
 
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Richard Periut wrote:

> I could go on and on about correcting the absurdities I've been reading
> here over that past days, but no amount of posting is going to change
> their fixations.



Would you like to explain to me what makes you the authority you so
claim to be?... And if you say - "I'm a Doctor" - then your opinion is
no more valid than that of a typical high school lunch lady... Most
Doctors (unless it's a personal hobby) have little to no training in
nutrition outside of the *one* class they (rarely) attend in med school...


~john!

--
What was it like to see - the face of your own stability - suddenly look
away...

  #63 (permalink)   Report Post  
Arri London
 
Posts: n/a
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Levelwave© wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
>
> > Keep in mind that the Atkins diet is a little extreme regarding carbs;
> > the hospital dietician didn't recommend it for long-term. Few people
> > stay on it for all that long and it didn't seem to make any difference
> > in the long-term rate of heart disease in their patient population. They
> > weren't all that thrilled with the very low-fat Ornish diet either and
> > it also didn't make much difference in long-term rate of heart disease
> > in their patient population.

>
> What you say is true for this *particular* study... but remember it's
> only one... Don't forget about the study earlier this year where the
> Atkin's Diet substantially outperformed the AMA's diet...


It's not one study. This hospital is part of a network of heart
hospitals. Their study subjects number in the tens of thousands and the
followup is for the life of the patient.

>
> > It's easier to cut down on white sugars, white flour and junk food in
> > general, rather than trying to get rid of all carbs. Also forgot to
> > mention that *fibre* is essential in cutting down serum cholesterol and
> > triglycerides (as well as reducing the risk of colon cancer). A true
> > Atkins diet is too low in fibre in the long term and requires
> > supplementation for most people.

>
> Only during the Induction phase... The main problem with the Atkin's
> diet is that far too many people have no clue how to cook for themselves
> so they end up gorging on the wrong fatty foods... Whereas I may have
> some Salmon with steamed veggies someone else may be eating Bacon,
> Sausage and Eggs all day long... I believe the real key is giving up
> processed and refined foods...
>
> ~john!
>



Then I misread the Atkins books. People were advised to get
supplementation because constipation is a common problem with Atkins.
  #64 (permalink)   Report Post  
Levelwave©
 
Posts: n/a
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Arri London wrote:

> It's not one study. This hospital is part of a network of heart
> hospitals. Their study subjects number in the tens of thousands and the
> followup is for the life of the patient.



If the subjects number in the tens of thousands then how can you be
absolutely sure that each and every subject is following the diet as
instructed?... Without proper monitoring you are only relying on the
subject's word... and a subject's word isn't worth too much in a
properly arranged scientific study... I'd be much more inclined to
accept the results of a smaller more *controlled* experiment...

~john!

--
What was it like to see - the face of your own stability - suddenly look
away...

  #65 (permalink)   Report Post  
Arri London
 
Posts: n/a
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Katra wrote:
>
> Dimitri wrote:
> >
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Levelwave© wrote:
> > > >
> > >>
> > > Zocor almost killed Mark's wife. :-(
> > > It caused her to have a stroke and throw multiple blood clots to the
> > > lungs... It's a known side effect according to the PDR.

> >
> > I what incedents? How many out of 1000 people? Then how was it documents
> > that Zocor was the specific cause?
> >
> > > Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
> > > the gym) before trying statins!

> >
> > Your choice.
> >
> > Dimitri

>
> Look it up in the 2003 PDR... :-)
>
> K.
>



I did. There is *no* mention of clotting in the adverse events section
for Zocor.
Not in the section for what was reported in up to 1 percent of patients,
and not in the section for what was reported in up to 0.5 percent of
patients (and those are reported regardless of causality).
Those numbers are based on a Swedish study of over 4000 patients and the
well-reported Heart Study of over 20,000 patients.

Various anaemias and other indications of red cell destruction are
reported, as well as forms of vasculitis and sed rate increases (which
is not clotting) and these are indicative of hypersensitivity.

Muscle destruction and damage to the liver are the most common adverse
events.


  #66 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL


"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dimitri wrote:
> >
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Levelwave© wrote:
> > > >
> > >>
> > > Zocor almost killed Mark's wife. :-(
> > > It caused her to have a stroke and throw multiple blood clots to the
> > > lungs... It's a known side effect according to the PDR.

> >
> > I what incedents? How many out of 1000 people? Then how was it

documents
> > that Zocor was the specific cause?
> >
> > > Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
> > > the gym) before trying statins!

> >
> > Your choice.
> >
> > Dimitri

>
> Look it up in the 2003 PDR... :-)
>
> K.
>


That does not answer the question does it?

I didn't know Mark's wife was listed in the PDR (Physicians Desk Reference)
The drug bible for the medical profession

Dimitri


  #67 (permalink)   Report Post  
Arri London
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL

Levelwave© wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
>
> > It's not one study. This hospital is part of a network of heart
> > hospitals. Their study subjects number in the tens of thousands and the
> > followup is for the life of the patient.

>
> If the subjects number in the tens of thousands then how can you be
> absolutely sure that each and every subject is following the diet as
> instructed?... Without proper monitoring you are only relying on the
> subject's word... and a subject's word isn't worth too much in a
> properly arranged scientific study... I'd be much more inclined to
> accept the results of a smaller more *controlled* experiment...
>
> ~john!



The results are just as valid. Unless someone has stood over a person
following a 'named' diet, there is no way to verify that the diet is
followed absolutely.
Dieticians know that people lie about their food intake and that is
always taken into consideration.

Atkins had absolutely no way to verify that each and every person
reporting told the absolute truth.
Only hospitalising someone for months at a time and being the sole
provider of food would guarantee the sort of numbers you would accept.
No study does that and it isn't necessary anyway.
  #68 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL



Richard Periut wrote:
>
> Oy! Every time I click on a post that has the word Cholesterol, or some
> other related subject, I literally fall off my chair!
>
> To do D-dimer (first you haven't mentioned what type,) and coags studies
> on patients receiving statins, would be very much cost ineffective.
>
> This reaction of statins producing clots, has got to be one of the
> rarest. Matter of fact, I know of no physician, that routinely do coags
> on patients on statins, unless they suspect hepatic insufficiency.
> Matter of fact, it has been documented that statins may actually help
> preventing clots from forming; but FDA has not approved this drug for
> anything of the sort.
>
> The drug can cause a vasculitis, and this could induce a hypercoagulable
> state, but this would be next to very, very rare.
>
> Next in order for clots to kill a person, they must produce significant
> alterations in perfusion. This would of been evident on a plain
> perfusion scan. Unless you are talking about a massive showering of
> clots to the lungs, in which case, still wouldn't kill the patient,
> unless they organized and obstructed the pulmonary artery to such a
> significant degree, that cardiac output would reach close to zero and
> hypoxemia would be so profound, that not even mechanical ventilation and
> 100 % oxygen would remedy it.


It was over time, and it caused her to develop Pulmonary hypertension...
and yes, it was a massive showering of microclots. :-(

She actually died from the secondary right sided congestive heart
failure caused by the pulmonary hypertension.

>
> If you find a case, in which it is well documented, please let me know,
> and I'll be the first one to present it in our weekly journal club.
>
> Also, for previous posters; aspirin is NOT an anticoagulant. It is a
> anti platelet aggregation drug.
>
> I could go on and on about correcting the absurdities I've been reading
> here over that past days, but no amount of posting is going to change
> their fixations.
>
> Suffice it to say that certain people here should talk more about food,
> rather than little things they pick up on google and by reading here and
> there. As I said, to know a little bit, can be very dangerous at times;
> especially when you are dispensing advice (practicing medicine IMO,) to
> someone else.
>
> Richard


Posting about Zocor causing blood clots was anecdotal, and I now know,
wrong. :-( I was going by what Mark told me, as he said he'd heard of
other cases of this happening.

I followed my own advice and looked it up in the PDR and, while there
were many other horrible side effects, blood clots were not one of them.

My bad. Sorry.

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<


"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra
  #69 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL



Dan Abel wrote:
>
> In article >, "Dimitri"
> > wrote:
>
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > ...

>
> > > Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
> > > the gym) before trying statins!

> >
> > Your choice.

>
> No. Statins are prescription drugs, and it is the choice of the doctor.
> My HMO is very clear. They ask the patients to try exercise and diet
> first, and then have another test after 3 months. If it still is too
> high, then they will prescribe medication.
>
> Of course, every patient is different, not to mention every doctor.
>
> --
> Dan Abel
> Sonoma State University
> AIS
>



Exactly. :-)
If you lack the will power and/or the time to change your lifestyle,
and wish to risk your liver, go ahead and use Statins as a first resort
rather than a last resort....

Many MANY doctors will prescribe statins before a lifestyle change, but
you already know this!

The choice is still yours! Your doctor does not make you swallow the pills.

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^<
>^,,^<

"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra
  #70 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL



Levelwave© wrote:
>
> Richard Periut wrote:
>
> > I could go on and on about correcting the absurdities I've been reading
> > here over that past days, but no amount of posting is going to change
> > their fixations.

>
> Would you like to explain to me what makes you the authority you so
> claim to be?... And if you say - "I'm a Doctor" - then your opinion is
> no more valid than that of a typical high school lunch lady... Most
> Doctors (unless it's a personal hobby) have little to no training in
> nutrition outside of the *one* class they (rarely) attend in med school...
>
> ~john!
>


ROFL! Too damned true!!! :-)
I've actually asked the doc's at work about nutritional stuff, and they
admit to knowing nada, except for Dr. Gitterle who has taken personal
time to study the subject, and agrees with me that body building and/or
sports nutrition is state-of-the-art more than anything else.

And the current food pyramid is bullshit.

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<


"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra


  #71 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL



Arri London wrote:
>
> Levelwave© wrote:
> >
> > Arri London wrote:
> >
> > > Keep in mind that the Atkins diet is a little extreme regarding carbs;
> > > the hospital dietician didn't recommend it for long-term. Few people
> > > stay on it for all that long and it didn't seem to make any difference
> > > in the long-term rate of heart disease in their patient population. They
> > > weren't all that thrilled with the very low-fat Ornish diet either and
> > > it also didn't make much difference in long-term rate of heart disease
> > > in their patient population.

> >
> > What you say is true for this *particular* study... but remember it's
> > only one... Don't forget about the study earlier this year where the
> > Atkin's Diet substantially outperformed the AMA's diet...

>
> It's not one study. This hospital is part of a network of heart
> hospitals. Their study subjects number in the tens of thousands and the
> followup is for the life of the patient.
>
> >
> > > It's easier to cut down on white sugars, white flour and junk food in
> > > general, rather than trying to get rid of all carbs. Also forgot to
> > > mention that *fibre* is essential in cutting down serum cholesterol and
> > > triglycerides (as well as reducing the risk of colon cancer). A true
> > > Atkins diet is too low in fibre in the long term and requires
> > > supplementation for most people.

> >
> > Only during the Induction phase... The main problem with the Atkin's
> > diet is that far too many people have no clue how to cook for themselves
> > so they end up gorging on the wrong fatty foods... Whereas I may have
> > some Salmon with steamed veggies someone else may be eating Bacon,
> > Sausage and Eggs all day long... I believe the real key is giving up
> > processed and refined foods...
> >
> > ~john!
> >

>
> Then I misread the Atkins books. People were advised to get
> supplementation because constipation is a common problem with Atkins.



I hate to support that, but it's true... :-(

Dr. Colker's "Greenwich" diet is far superior actually,
but it's still low carb... It's the one I'm following.
And there is NO constipation on that one since he
recommends more green veggies, and less stress on fat.

And I've gotten to explore the vast world of green veggies. <G>

I don't like high fat. It's just gross!

I should have mentioned it before, sorry.

http://www.tfnutrition.com/waytolosweig.html

Atkins was a pioneer, but not perfect. If you have to take
fiber supplementation like Metamucil, there is a problem
with the equation.

K.
--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<


"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra
  #72 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL



Arri London wrote:
>
> Katra wrote:
> >
> > Dimitri wrote:
> > >
> > > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Levelwave© wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >>
> > > > Zocor almost killed Mark's wife. :-(
> > > > It caused her to have a stroke and throw multiple blood clots to the
> > > > lungs... It's a known side effect according to the PDR.
> > >
> > > I what incedents? How many out of 1000 people? Then how was it documents
> > > that Zocor was the specific cause?
> > >
> > > > Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
> > > > the gym) before trying statins!
> > >
> > > Your choice.
> > >
> > > Dimitri

> >
> > Look it up in the 2003 PDR... :-)
> >
> > K.
> >

>
> I did. There is *no* mention of clotting in the adverse events section
> for Zocor.
> Not in the section for what was reported in up to 1 percent of patients,
> and not in the section for what was reported in up to 0.5 percent of
> patients (and those are reported regardless of causality).
> Those numbers are based on a Swedish study of over 4000 patients and the
> well-reported Heart Study of over 20,000 patients.


You are right. I was wrong, I already admitted this in my previous
post... I made the mistake of listening to someone who did not do the
research and was going anecdotally. Bad mistake. Especially posting it! <cringe>

I, too, followed my own advice and looked it up in the PDR. Plenty of
other bad stuff, but no blood clotting. I'm going to have to tell Mark. :-)

>
> Various anaemias and other indications of red cell destruction are
> reported, as well as forms of vasculitis and sed rate increases (which
> is not clotting) and these are indicative of hypersensitivity.
>
> Muscle destruction and damage to the liver are the most common adverse
> events.


And kidney damage from the Rhabdomyolysis from the myalgia.... :-P

Bad enough tho' wouldn't you say?

Thanks!
K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<


"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra
  #73 (permalink)   Report Post  
Katra
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL



Dimitri wrote:
>
> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Dimitri wrote:
> > >
> > > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Levelwave© wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >>
> > > > Zocor almost killed Mark's wife. :-(
> > > > It caused her to have a stroke and throw multiple blood clots to the
> > > > lungs... It's a known side effect according to the PDR.
> > >
> > > I what incedents? How many out of 1000 people? Then how was it

> documents
> > > that Zocor was the specific cause?
> > >
> > > > Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go to
> > > > the gym) before trying statins!
> > >
> > > Your choice.
> > >
> > > Dimitri

> >
> > Look it up in the 2003 PDR... :-)
> >
> > K.
> >

>
> That does not answer the question does it?
>
> I didn't know Mark's wife was listed in the PDR (Physicians Desk Reference)
> The drug bible for the medical profession
>
> Dimitri



I screwed up. I'm sorry. :-P

K.

--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< >^,,^<


"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...s&userid=katra
  #74 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL


"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dan Abel wrote:
> >
> > In article >, "Dimitri"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > > ...

> >
> > > > Personally, I'd try diet and EXERCISE (get off your fat ass and go

to
> > > > the gym) before trying statins!
> > >
> > > Your choice.

> >
> > No. Statins are prescription drugs, and it is the choice of the doctor.
> > My HMO is very clear. They ask the patients to try exercise and diet
> > first, and then have another test after 3 months. If it still is too
> > high, then they will prescribe medication.
> >
> > Of course, every patient is different, not to mention every doctor.
> >
> > --
> > Dan Abel
> > Sonoma State University
> > AIS
> >

>
>
> Exactly. :-)
> If you lack the will power and/or the time to change your lifestyle,
> and wish to risk your liver, go ahead and use Statins as a first resort
> rather than a last resort....
>
> Many MANY doctors will prescribe statins before a lifestyle change, but
> you already know this!
>
> The choice is still yours! Your doctor does not make you swallow the

pills.
>
> K.




Come back and post about the subject AFTER a stroke.

Lets see if your attitude changes then.

Dimitri.


  #75 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dan Abel
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL

In article >, Richard Periut
> wrote:



> Oy! Every time I click on a post that has the word Cholesterol, or some
> other related subject, I literally fall off my chair!


You must have an awful lot of bruises, then. You probably should go see a
doctor about this.


:-)

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS



  #76 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dan Abel
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL

In article > , "Dimitri"
> wrote:


> > If you lack the will power and/or the time to change your lifestyle,
> > and wish to risk your liver, go ahead and use Statins as a first resort
> > rather than a last resort....
> >
> > Many MANY doctors will prescribe statins before a lifestyle change, but
> > you already know this!
> >
> > The choice is still yours! Your doctor does not make you swallow the

> pills.



> Come back and post about the subject AFTER a stroke.
>
> Lets see if your attitude changes then.



I think that we are getting a little too personal here.

I like my HMO (Kaiser Northern California). They emphasize prevention
rather than cure. Healthy patients are happy patients, but more
importantly, they can manage their costs better by prevention. The
premiums are comparatively cheap. Statins are expensive, and they can
manage costs by not prescribing them when they can get away with that.
However, bypass surgery and hospitilization for stroke are much more
expensive. Kaiser has an entire department devoted to cholesterol
control. They monitor my cholesterol levels and recommend treatment.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

  #77 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dan Abel
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL

In article >, Katra
> wrote:

> Levelwave© wrote:
> >
> > Richard Periut wrote:
> >
> > > I could go on and on about correcting the absurdities I've been reading
> > > here over that past days, but no amount of posting is going to change
> > > their fixations.



> > Would you like to explain to me what makes you the authority you so
> > claim to be?... And if you say - "I'm a Doctor" - then your opinion is
> > no more valid than that of a typical high school lunch lady... Most
> > Doctors (unless it's a personal hobby) have little to no training in
> > nutrition outside of the *one* class they (rarely) attend in med school...



> ROFL! Too damned true!!! :-)
> I've actually asked the doc's at work about nutritional stuff, and they
> admit to knowing nada, except for Dr. Gitterle who has taken personal



We've long passed the time when "doctor knows best", and especially the
concept that any doctor knows every thing about every health issue. My
doctor found my cholesterol too high, so he referred me to the Cholesterol
Management Program. My doctor diagnosed diabetes, so I was referred to a
diabetes specialist, who does nothing but diabetes. For both of these, I
attended workshops with other patients with the same issue. In both
workshops they brought in a dietician. In all these cases, my HMO saved a
bundle of money, because these specialists are a lot cheaper than
doctors. Training doctors in nutrition doesn't make sense, since they
can't treat patients while they are in training, and it is expensive to
have a doctor explain basic nutrition and provide counseling to patients.


However, this thread is not just about nutrition, it is about medication
and lifestyle changes. I would expect doctors who treat high cholesterol
to be familiar with all these issues, much more than the typical high
school lunch lady.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

  #78 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Periut
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL



Katra wrote:
>
> Richard Periut wrote:
>
>>Oy! Every time I click on a post that has the word Cholesterol, or some
>>other related subject, I literally fall off my chair!
>>
>>To do D-dimer (first you haven't mentioned what type,) and coags studies
>>on patients receiving statins, would be very much cost ineffective.
>>
>>This reaction of statins producing clots, has got to be one of the
>>rarest. Matter of fact, I know of no physician, that routinely do coags
>>on patients on statins, unless they suspect hepatic insufficiency.
>>Matter of fact, it has been documented that statins may actually help
>>preventing clots from forming; but FDA has not approved this drug for
>>anything of the sort.
>>
>>The drug can cause a vasculitis, and this could induce a hypercoagulable
>>state, but this would be next to very, very rare.
>>
>>Next in order for clots to kill a person, they must produce significant
>>alterations in perfusion. This would of been evident on a plain
>>perfusion scan. Unless you are talking about a massive showering of
>>clots to the lungs, in which case, still wouldn't kill the patient,
>>unless they organized and obstructed the pulmonary artery to such a
>>significant degree, that cardiac output would reach close to zero and
>>hypoxemia would be so profound, that not even mechanical ventilation and
>>100 % oxygen would remedy it.

>
>
> It was over time, and it caused her to develop Pulmonary hypertension...
> and yes, it was a massive showering of microclots. :-(
>
> She actually died from the secondary right sided congestive heart
> failure caused by the pulmonary hypertension.
>


What she had was chronic thromboembolic disease. The other thing is,
when a patient presents with pulmonary hypertension + rt sided failure,
the first thing to do is investigate whether it's primary, or secondary.
One has to distinguish what is causing the secondary type, and
eliminate it if possible, and treat (anticoags, filter, et cetera,)





>
>>If you find a case, in which it is well documented, please let me know,
>>and I'll be the first one to present it in our weekly journal club.
>>
>>Also, for previous posters; aspirin is NOT an anticoagulant. It is a
>>anti platelet aggregation drug.
>>
>>I could go on and on about correcting the absurdities I've been reading
>>here over that past days, but no amount of posting is going to change
>>their fixations.
>>
>>Suffice it to say that certain people here should talk more about food,
>>rather than little things they pick up on google and by reading here and
>>there. As I said, to know a little bit, can be very dangerous at times;
>>especially when you are dispensing advice (practicing medicine IMO,) to
>>someone else.
>>
>>Richard

>
>
> Posting about Zocor causing blood clots was anecdotal, and I now know,
> wrong. :-( I was going by what Mark told me, as he said he'd heard of
> other cases of this happening.
>
> I followed my own advice and looked it up in the PDR and, while there
> were many other horrible side effects, blood clots were not one of them.
>


The PDR has to name every possilbe effect ever noticed on any patient
while the drug was under investiagion. Thus, there are many sx and
signs, which had nothing to do with the drug. If you show someone the
PDR ref on any drug, they probably will not take it, or have second
thoughts about it.

Richard



> My bad. Sorry.
>
> K.
>


  #79 (permalink)   Report Post  
Richard Periut
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL



Katra wrote:

>
> Levelwave© wrote:
>
>>Richard Periut wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I could go on and on about correcting the absurdities I've been reading
>>>here over that past days, but no amount of posting is going to change
>>>their fixations.

>>
>>Would you like to explain to me what makes you the authority you so
>>claim to be?... And if you say - "I'm a Doctor" - then your opinion is
>>no more valid than that of a typical high school lunch lady... Most
>>Doctors (unless it's a personal hobby) have little to no training in
>>nutrition outside of the *one* class they (rarely) attend in med school...
>>
>>~john!
>>

>
>
> ROFL! Too damned true!!! :-)
> I've actually asked the doc's at work about nutritional stuff, and they
> admit to knowing nada, except for Dr. Gitterle who has taken personal
> time to study the subject, and agrees with me that body building and/or
> sports nutrition is state-of-the-art more than anything else.
>

I would not generalize, as this other person, who absolutely knows next
to nothing on what he utters. Matter of fact, if his / her advice on
cooking is similar to his / her knowledge on medicine and health care, I
wouldn't listen not even on the topic of boiling water.

Most doctors are too busy within their own specialty. You don't need a
PhD in nutrition, to study the large randomized prospective studies that
have been carried out, not to mention that not all physicins are the
same. There is the mediocre, and then there are others who go out of
their way, to constantly learn new things, or expose themselves to
concepts out of his / her specialty.

Be careful though, the holistic docs have taken a small amount of truth,
mixed it well with a bunch of bull shit diets, herbal supplements,
vitamins, et cetera, and Bang, a multi million dollar industry is alive
and well.

Richard




> And the current food pyramid is bullshit.
>
> K.
>


  #80 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dimitri
 
Posts: n/a
Default CHOLESTEROL


"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article > , "Dimitri"
> > wrote:
>
>
> > > If you lack the will power and/or the time to change your lifestyle,
> > > and wish to risk your liver, go ahead and use Statins as a first

resort
> > > rather than a last resort....
> > >
> > > Many MANY doctors will prescribe statins before a lifestyle change,

but
> > > you already know this!
> > >
> > > The choice is still yours! Your doctor does not make you swallow the

> > pills.

>
>
> > Come back and post about the subject AFTER a stroke.
> >
> > Lets see if your attitude changes then.

>
>
> I think that we are getting a little too personal here.
>
> I like my HMO (Kaiser Northern California). They emphasize prevention
> rather than cure. Healthy patients are happy patients, but more
> importantly, they can manage their costs better by prevention. The
> premiums are comparatively cheap. Statins are expensive, and they can
> manage costs by not prescribing them when they can get away with that.
> However, bypass surgery and hospitilization for stroke are much more
> expensive.


Yes I know about the costs too well.

Dimitri



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