We're back from 10 days in France.

I'm not sure what's wrong with me, but I love the service in French
restaurants. With rare exception, I found the waiters to be attentive
and efficient without being obsequious or overbearing. Enough people
spoke enough English that communication was possible, even easy.

I love the food. By eating croissants and tea for breakfast, skipping
lunch or just having an apple or strawberries, and having a rich
restaurant meal at dinner, I didn't feel overstuffed. Walking all over
Paris was a big help too.

I showed my true American self in my disdain for cigarette smoke. It
didn't seem as bad as it was 8 years ago when I was last there, but I
still don't understand how people who love good food so much can ruin
meals with constant smoking.

This is already turning into a funny story, but I was anything but
amused at the time. This was a work related trip so we were there with
another American couple. They brought their 3 year old daughter. While
socializing with them wasn't specifically part of the contract, being
friendly is good policy since everyone has to get along to work
together. They're quite nice folks, but I can't think of any
American I would want intruding on my private time running around Paris
by myself. There are people who have trouble understanding what it is
to be happy alone. They assume that if you're alone, you must be lonely.

But this is food related. On the first day, the man mentioned being
picky about food. I could relate since I can be fairly picky myself,
but I'd never met anything like this before. I've always been the one
to be understanding about special diets and irrational food dislikes. I
was sure we could accomodate and find restaurants that everyone liked.


I assured him that he needn't worry in Paris, that
the menus would be varied enough that I was sure he'd have no trouble
finding something he'd like. If you don't like duck, there's chicken.
If you don't like fancy sauces, there will be something that's prepared
plain. No meat, plenty of vegetables, etc. His wife seemed embarrassed
as she explained that her husband liked pizza and plain pasta or eggs
and cheese. She said Italian food would be great, and I saw no problem
with that since there are loads of great Italian restaurants in Paris.

It was when we were actually choosing a restaurant that I started to see
the extent of the problem. We walked by dozens. In each case, he'd
look at the menu in the window and shake his head because there was
nothing there he could eat. He'd consult with his wife, and if he did
actually see something on the menu that he liked, there would be a
problem with feeding the 3 year old. As near as I could tell, he'll eat
eggs with cheddar cheese but not any cheese related to the Swiss family.
He'd never tried chevre and though assured it was mild, he didn't want
to take any chances. He rejected a restaurant that might put ham in the
omelette. Hamburger was O.K. but not steak. Chicken was O.K. but only
if it were cooked to be falling off the bone. You get the idea. This
was a man who was looking for MacDonalds in Paris. Seriously. He
mentioned not seeing any.

We ended up in the French equivalent of diners.

When they first told me that they never forced their daughter to eat
anything she didn't like, I was all for it. I remember being force fed
as a kid and hating it so I applaud parents who leave off all the
cajoling and bribing and rationalizing when it comes to food. The
daughter was obviously healthy and active so I could see nothing wrong
with their plan-- until I saw it in action. Not forcing her to eat
anything she didn't want meant telling her what she didn't like before
she had a chance to try it! To give you an idea of the extent they took
it to, they asked for Sprite or 7up. The restaurant didn't have it,
but they did have Limonade which is a near equivalent, maybe a little
different but not much. Mother and Father consulted amongst themselves
within their daughter's hearing about whether she'd drink it. They
decided she might. When it came, they told her that she probably
wouldn't like it but that she could try it.

The whole situation was like those old television sitcoms where the
humor revolves around friendly people who don't know how obnoxious
they're being and unassertive people who aren't in a position to speak
up about how their vacation is being ruined. (Well, not ruined, I did
get out on my own plenty.)

--Lia

"Julia Altshuler"

<snipping wonderful story/events>
:
: The whole situation was like those old television sitcoms where
the
: humor revolves around friendly people who don't know how
obnoxious
: they're being and unassertive people who aren't in a position
to speak
: up about how their vacation is being ruined. (Well, not
ruined, I did
: get out on my own plenty.)
:
: --Lia
:
: =======

Oh my gosh Lia; that's funny! Sad, too, but funny!

I'm glad you got a little time away...

Yeah, they definitely were on the 'picky' side. Hmm, I've
noticed that as I age I've become a little pickier... but WOW,
that family makes me look like the easiest person to please!


--
Cyndi
<Remove a "b" to reply>

Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
> We're back from 10 days in France.

> This is already turning into a funny story, but I was anything but
> amused at the time.

> But this is food related. On the first day, the man mentioned being
> picky about food.

> It was when we were actually choosing a restaurant that I started to see
> the extent of the problem. We walked by dozens. In each case, he'd
> look at the menu in the window and shake his head because there was
> nothing there he could eat.

What a BIG BABY. Sorry, but hello, the world DOES NOT revolve
around you. How very rude, just sit the hell down and find
something you might *tolerate* instead of dragging the whole party
around town. Ridiculous.

I would have said, I'm eating here, go wild looking for some place
you might like.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:
> Julia Altshuler wrote:
>>
>> We're back from 10 days in France.
>
>> This is already turning into a funny story, but I was anything but
>> amused at the time.
>
>> But this is food related. On the first day, the man mentioned being
>> picky about food.
>
>> It was when we were actually choosing a restaurant that I started to
>> see the extent of the problem. We walked by dozens. In each case,
>> he'd look at the menu in the window and shake his head because there
>> was nothing there he could eat.
>
> What a BIG BABY. Sorry, but hello, the world DOES NOT revolve
> around you. How very rude, just sit the hell down and find
> something you might *tolerate* instead of dragging the whole party
> around town. Ridiculous.
>
> I would have said, I'm eating here, go wild looking for some place
> you might like.
>
> nancy

Go Wild finding the Golden Arches... McDonald's indeed.

Jill

In article <Qbwwb.96951$Dw6.476112@attbi_s02>, Julia Altshuler
> wrote:


> I assured him that he needn't worry in Paris, that
> the menus would be varied enough that I was sure he'd have no trouble
> finding something he'd like. If you don't like duck, there's chicken.
> If you don't like fancy sauces, there will be something that's prepared
> plain. No meat, plenty of vegetables, etc. His wife seemed embarrassed
> as she explained that her husband liked pizza and plain pasta or eggs
> and cheese. She said Italian food would be great, and I saw no problem
> with that since there are loads of great Italian restaurants in Paris.
>
> It was when we were actually choosing a restaurant that I started to see
> the extent of the problem. We walked by dozens. In each case, he'd
> look at the menu in the window and shake his head because there was
> nothing there he could eat. He'd consult with his wife, and if he did


> was a man who was looking for MacDonalds in Paris. Seriously. He
> mentioned not seeing any.


I don't understand. I'm not very assertive about such things myself, and
maybe things are different in Paris, but in the US it is pretty common for
people to have their food customized the way they want it. Even at
McDonalds you can ask for no onions, or whatever. If one of these
restaurants you bypassed had pasta, couldn't he just ask for it plain with
no sauce? Or eggs with no cheese or ham?

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

In article <Qbwwb.96951$Dw6.476112@attbi_s02>,
says...
> It was when we were actually choosing a restaurant that I started to see
> the extent of the problem. We walked by dozens. In each case, he'd
> look at the menu in the window and shake his head because there was
> nothing there he could eat. He'd consult with his wife, and if he did
> actually see something on the menu that he liked, there would be a
> problem with feeding the 3 year old. As near as I could tell, he'll eat
> eggs with cheddar cheese but not any cheese related to the Swiss family.
> He'd never tried chevre and though assured it was mild, he didn't want
> to take any chances. He rejected a restaurant that might put ham in the
> omelette. Hamburger was O.K. but not steak. Chicken was O.K. but only
> if it were cooked to be falling off the bone. You get the idea. This
> was a man who was looking for MacDonalds in Paris. Seriously. He
> mentioned not seeing any.
>
> We ended up in the French equivalent of diners.

This is why they consider most Americans so crass. I will not permit
myself to set foot into any part of Europe that doesn't have English as
a native language until I learn the language of that country. I expect
my experience would be much different if I were able to speak the
language - that's my only criteria.

Regarding food - I'm not really picky. I've tried just about everything,
some of it I like, some of it I don't. But you can bet that were I in
Paris, I wouldn't be searching out a Mickey-D's. I've pretty much weaned
myself away from the fast food crap in the U.S. with the exception of
pizza, and Chinses food.

COTTP > wrote:

>This is why they consider most Americans so crass. I will not permit
>myself to set foot into any part of Europe that doesn't have English as
>a native language until I learn the language of that country.
>
Agus cathain a bhfuil sé ar intinn agat cuairt a thabhairt ar Eirinn?

>I expect
>my experience would be much different if I were able to speak the
>language - that's my only criteria.
>
I prefer to have plural criteria.

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:08:32 GMT, Julia Altshuler
> wrote:

>We're back from 10 days in France.
>
>I'm not sure what's wrong with me, but I love the service in French
>restaurants. With rare exception, I found the waiters to be attentive
>and efficient without being obsequious or overbearing. Enough people
>spoke enough English that communication was possible, even easy.
>
>I love the food. By eating croissants and tea for breakfast, skipping
>lunch or just having an apple or strawberries, and having a rich
>restaurant meal at dinner, I didn't feel overstuffed. Walking all over
>Paris was a big help too.

My wife and I would usually lunch at a place listed in Michelin, but
without stars. We could understand what happened at that level, and
possibly even learn something. She would usually not want dinner, and
I would eat molluscs and crustaceans with some Muscadet in the bistro
at our hotel.

I always found the service friendly and accommodating.

>
>I showed my true American self in my disdain for cigarette smoke. It
>didn't seem as bad as it was 8 years ago when I was last there, but I
>still don't understand how people who love good food so much can ruin
>meals with constant smoking.
>

The smoke is a problem.

>This is already turning into a funny story, but I was anything but
>amused at the time. This was a work related trip so we were there with
>another American couple. They brought their 3 year old daughter. While
>socializing with them wasn't specifically part of the contract, being
>friendly is good policy since everyone has to get along to work
>together. They're quite nice folks, but I can't think of any
>American I would want intruding on my private time running around Paris
>by myself. There are people who have trouble understanding what it is
>to be happy alone. They assume that if you're alone, you must be lonely.
>
>But this is food related. On the first day, the man mentioned being
>picky about food. I could relate since I can be fairly picky myself,
>but I'd never met anything like this before. I've always been the one
>to be understanding about special diets and irrational food dislikes. I
>was sure we could accomodate and find restaurants that everyone liked.
>
>
>I assured him that he needn't worry in Paris, that
>the menus would be varied enough that I was sure he'd have no trouble
>finding something he'd like. If you don't like duck, there's chicken.
>If you don't like fancy sauces, there will be something that's prepared
>plain. No meat, plenty of vegetables, etc. His wife seemed embarrassed
>as she explained that her husband liked pizza and plain pasta or eggs
>and cheese. She said Italian food would be great, and I saw no problem
>with that since there are loads of great Italian restaurants in Paris.
>
>It was when we were actually choosing a restaurant that I started to see
>the extent of the problem. We walked by dozens. In each case, he'd
>look at the menu in the window and shake his head because there was
>nothing there he could eat. He'd consult with his wife, and if he did
>actually see something on the menu that he liked, there would be a
>problem with feeding the 3 year old. As near as I could tell, he'll eat
>eggs with cheddar cheese but not any cheese related to the Swiss family.
> He'd never tried chevre and though assured it was mild, he didn't want
>to take any chances. He rejected a restaurant that might put ham in the
>omelette. Hamburger was O.K. but not steak. Chicken was O.K. but only
>if it were cooked to be falling off the bone. You get the idea. This
>was a man who was looking for MacDonalds in Paris. Seriously. He
>mentioned not seeing any.
>
>We ended up in the French equivalent of diners.
>
I had that happen once when I was on a press junket in Aix-les-Bains.
The TGV went on strike the day we were supposed to go back to Paris,
so they bussed us over the Swiss border to an airport, where we flew
to De Gaulle on a commuter plane, arriving early evening.

Then bussed to the Meridien hotel near the Champs-Elysee, which was
surrounded by good-looking bistros with the oyster shucker out on the
sidewalk I was anticipating a good bistro meal when I dropped my bag
in the room.

By waiting for the others to get themselves together, I blew it. We
ended up at about 11 PM in a deli. The shellfish people were all
closing up when we left the hotel. AARGH!

In my experience New York is better than Paris for eating really late,
but that may just be because I know where to go.


>When they first told me that they never forced their daughter to eat
>anything she didn't like, I was all for it. I remember being force fed
>as a kid and hating it so I applaud parents who leave off all the
>cajoling and bribing and rationalizing when it comes to food. The
>daughter was obviously healthy and active so I could see nothing wrong
>with their plan-- until I saw it in action. Not forcing her to eat
>anything she didn't want meant telling her what she didn't like before
>she had a chance to try it! To give you an idea of the extent they took
>it to, they asked for Sprite or 7up. The restaurant didn't have it,
>but they did have Limonade which is a near equivalent, maybe a little
>different but not much. Mother and Father consulted amongst themselves
>within their daughter's hearing about whether she'd drink it. They
>decided she might. When it came, they told her that she probably
>wouldn't like it but that she could try it.
>
My mother-in-law does that with her grandchildren. However, they have
learned that she isn't always right. I brought some Wellfleet oysters
once at Christmas, and one of them, about 14 or 15, actually tried
them. It was rewarding to see his face light up as he tasted the first
one.
>
>The whole situation was like those old television sitcoms where the
>humor revolves around friendly people who don't know how obnoxious
>they're being and unassertive people who aren't in a position to speak
>up about how their vacation is being ruined. (Well, not ruined, I did
>get out on my own plenty.)
>--Lia
>


Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:Qbwwb.96951$Dw6.476112@attbi_s02...
> We're back from 10 days in France.
>
> I'm not sure what's wrong with me, but I love the service in French
> restaurants. With rare exception, I found the waiters to be attentive
> and efficient without being obsequious or overbearing. Enough people
> spoke enough English that communication was possible, even easy.
>
> I love the food. By eating croissants and tea for breakfast, skipping
> lunch or just having an apple or strawberries, and having a rich
> restaurant meal at dinner, I didn't feel overstuffed. Walking all over
> Paris was a big help too.


<snipped the narrative of the drip>

I'll go on record and take the lumps but it's been my experience that picky
eaters are lousy in bed. No syrup on that vanilla.

Jack Pick

Nancy Young wrote:

> What a BIG BABY. Sorry, but hello, the world DOES NOT revolve
> around you. How very rude, just sit the hell down and find
> something you might *tolerate* instead of dragging the whole party
> around town. Ridiculous.
>
> I would have said, I'm eating here, go wild looking for some place
> you might like.


The funny thing about it is that I liked the guy. With the exception of
the food thing, he wasn't bad at all. He treated his pickiness as a
sort of handicap, the way someone in a wheelchair might apologetically
say that he couldn't join the rest of the party climbing up steep steps
to get a great view. If we lived in the same city in the U.S., I'd get
together with him and his wife for some non-food related event. If the
work relationship weren't important, I'd do what you say and tell him
which restaurant I'd chosen and let him decide whether to join me or
not. If we weren't in PARIS, I wouldn't mind, but being there on a
short trip gives a feeling of urgency that every bad meal is a lost
opportunity. Truth be told, I didn't want to hang out with ANY
Americans on such a short trip. (Excluding my boyfriend for romantic
walks along the Seine.) I wanted to stay open to whatever new people I
might meet, not feel like I was on a tour with a bunch of people I knew
at home.

--Lia

Dan Abel wrote:

> I don't understand. I'm not very assertive about such things myself, and
> maybe things are different in Paris, but in the US it is pretty common for
> people to have their food customized the way they want it. Even at
> McDonalds you can ask for no onions, or whatever. If one of these
> restaurants you bypassed had pasta, couldn't he just ask for it plain with
> no sauce? Or eggs with no cheese or ham?


Good question. At first I thought it WAS a simple matter of
communicating with the waiter, but language barriers and embarrassment
got in the way. I've never minded asking for an ingredient to be left
out, but this guy would have had to ask for something totally not on the
menu. I spoke the most French of anyone in the group, but I have my
limits. I wasn't about to attempt explaining his diet restraints.

As for things being different in Paris, they're not terribly so. In a
good restaurant, you can ask for what you want, but if the restaurant is
busy, you might get it and you might not.

--Lia

Julia Altshuler > wrote in message news:<Qbwwb.96951$Dw6.476112@attbi_s02>...
> We're back from 10 days in France.
>
> I'm not sure what's wrong with me, but I love the service in French
> restaurants. With rare exception, I found the waiters to be attentive
> and efficient without being obsequious or overbearing. Enough people
> spoke enough English that communication was possible, even easy.
<snip>

Why do people like this even bother going to Europe, or out of the
States, for that matter? I mean, I have been in some places with
*weird* food, and ate it anyway, graciously. Sheesh.

I find that kind of inability to go with the flow as a form of passive
agressiveness and need to control...ick.

-L.

"-L." > wrote in message
m...
>
> Why do people like this even bother going to Europe, or out of the
> States, for that matter? I mean, I have been in some places with
> *weird* food, and ate it anyway, graciously. Sheesh.
>

I was wondering about that, as well, but then I remembered that not everyone
is interested in food. I went to Bali with friends and they just wanted to
eat fish and chips at the Hard Rock Cafe and lie on the beach all day long.
It was very different from what I wanted, so I mostly ventured out on my
own.

> I find that kind of inability to go with the flow as a form of passive
> agressiveness and need to control...ick.
>
> -L.

I think since he knew what he liked and didn't like, he should have brought
his own food or purchased some at a market. I'm sure he could have found
imported cheddar somewhere so he could have just eaten cheese sandwiches
while everyone else could have eaten what they wanted. A couple I met in
Bali even brought a jar of peanut butter along for their two small children
(one was about 3, the other 4 or 5) for long road trips and for difficult
eating situations. Maybe that man should have done the same.

rona

--
***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!***

Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
> We're back from 10 days in France.
(random snippage)
>
> This is already turning into a funny story, but I was anything but
> amused at the time. This was a work related trip so we were there with
> another American couple. They brought their 3 year old daughter.
>
> It was when we were actually choosing a restaurant that I started to see
> the extent of the problem. We walked by dozens. In each case, he'd
> look at the menu in the window and shake his head because there was
> nothing there he could eat. He'd consult with his wife, and if he did
> actually see something on the menu that he liked, there would be a
> problem with feeding the 3 year old.



I wasn't there but I found the story way more
infuriating than funny. I hope you never have to
travel with this family again. What a waste of 10
days in France, to be saddled with such anal travel
companions.

gloria p

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:RKzwb.297592$Fm2.317029@attbi_s04...
> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> > I don't understand. I'm not very assertive about such things myself,
and
> > maybe things are different in Paris, but in the US it is pretty common
for
> > people to have their food customized the way they want it. Even at
> > McDonalds you can ask for no onions, or whatever. If one of these
> > restaurants you bypassed had pasta, couldn't he just ask for it plain
with
> > no sauce? Or eggs with no cheese or ham?
>
>
> Good question. At first I thought it WAS a simple matter of
> communicating with the waiter, but language barriers and embarrassment
> got in the way. I've never minded asking for an ingredient to be left
> out, but this guy would have had to ask for something totally not on the
> menu. I spoke the most French of anyone in the group, but I have my
> limits. I wasn't about to attempt explaining his diet restraints.
>
> As for things being different in Paris, they're not terribly so. In a
> good restaurant, you can ask for what you want, but if the restaurant is
> busy, you might get it and you might not.
>
> --Lia
>

It sounds like those people were a real ball and chain. I would probably
have echoed your diplomacy for the first meal, but after that I would have
parted company on a polite note and if pressed would have explained 'hey you
know I'm a real foodie and you folks sure you weren't thinking of Paris,
Texas?'

Then again, there are picky eaters in Europe, I'm sure. I've just never met
any and I think being only a couple of generations away from a major war
fought on home soil and the ensuing food shortages would create a different
attitude. It would cure any 'pickiness' toot sweet.

Jack Murkin

"Jack Schidt®" a écrit :

> Then again, there are picky eaters in Europe, I'm sure. I've just never met
> any and I think being only a couple of generations away from a major war
> fought on home soil and the ensuing food shortages would create a different
> attitude. It would cure any 'pickiness' toot sweet.

Well, I *do* know picky eaters. But, I must admit, none of Lia's story's
proportion! This guy needs food-therapy of some kind...

Nathalie in Switzerland

-L. wrote:

> Why do people like this even bother going to Europe, or out of the
> States, for that matter? I mean, I have been in some places with
> *weird* food, and ate it anyway, graciously. Sheesh.
>
> I find that kind of inability to go with the flow as a form of passive
> agressiveness and need to control...ick.


What an interesting thought, one I'll think about more. He didn't SEEM
passive aggressive. He seemed more apologetic about his handicap than
anything else. But then, the whole definition of passive
aggressive-ness involves not seeming aggressive. He wasn't insistent,
and neither were we. If this had turned into an ongoing problem, we
probably would have gotten around to saying something about not wanting
to eat with them any longer, but since it was a work-related
relationship, we were especially accomodating. In fact, it turned into
a bit of friction between Jim and me since I was ready to lose the fussy
coworkers faster, and he was more willing to put up with them for the
sake of work. He's a nicer person than I am.

As for why he bothered going to Europe, that's where the customer is.
The men were working. The women went along for the trip. The 3 year
old went with her parents. We all took several extra days when not
working to sightsee.

--Lia

Padraig Breathnach wrote:
> COTTP > wrote:
>
>> This is why they consider most Americans so crass. I will not permit
>> myself to set foot into any part of Europe that doesn't have English
>> as a native language until I learn the language of that country.
>>
> Agus cathain a bhfuil sé ar intinn agat cuairt a thabhairt ar Eirinn?

Sorry, but I lost my Gaelic dictionary

Jill McQuown

In article <Qbwwb.96951$Dw6.476112@attbi_s02>, Julia Altshuler
> wrote:

> When they first told me that they never forced their daughter to eat
> anything she didn't like, I was all for it. I remember being force fed
> as a kid and hating it so I applaud parents who leave off all the
> cajoling and bribing and rationalizing when it comes to food. The
> daughter was obviously healthy and active so I could see nothing wrong
> with their plan-- until I saw it in action.

Late Sister Mary once took care of someone else's kids for a week.
Their mom had said they'd eat anything. They wouldn't. They'd eat
ketchup.

My SIL is a wretched picky eater and asks way too many questions about
"what's in it, Barbara?" He'll pick out offending vegetables. Drives
me nuts. I'm fearful that some of it may transfer to the kiddle. Argh!
--
-Barb
<www.jamlady.eboard.com>
"If you're ever in a jam, here I am."

In article > ,
(-L.) wrote:
(snip)
> Why do people like this even bother going to Europe, or out of the
> States, for that matter?

Sounds like it was a business trip and they could then say they once
spent 10 days in France in the Fall of 2003.

> I find that kind of inability to go with the flow as a form of passive
> agressiveness and need to control...ick.

See Zelt's sig line.
--
-Barb
<www.jamlady.eboard.com>
"If you're ever in a jam, here I am."

In article >, Rodney
Myrvaagnes > wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:08:32 GMT, Julia Altshuler
> > wrote:
(snip)
> >Not forcing her to eat anything she didn't want meant telling her
> >what she didn't like before she had a chance to try it!

(snip)
> My mother-in-law does that with her grandchildren. However, they have
> learned that she isn't always right. I brought some Wellfleet oysters
> once at Christmas, and one of them, about 14 or 15, actually tried
> them. It was rewarding to see his face light up as he tasted the first
> one.

Might not have been a good move, Rodney -- the price just went up for
supplying the oysters for the Christmas meal. "-)
--
-Barb
<www.jamlady.eboard.com>
"If you're ever in a jam, here I am."

In article >, COTTP
> wrote:

> This is why they consider most Americans so crass. I will not permit
> myself to set foot into any part of Europe that doesn't have English
> as a native language until I learn the language of that country.

You'll miss some pretty scenery in Eastern Europe as well as other parts
of non-English-as-a-first-language Europe. A friend who's traveled the
world says she can point in any language. :-) I did fine in German
restaurants -- recognized hendl as chicken-something and schwein as
pork-something. Had a ball! The Slovaks were very gracious about my
attempts at the language -- making the attempt was worth a LOT to them.
I think people run into trouble when they make the assumption that
everyone should speak English---that's an arrogance that I'd have a hard
time getting past.
--
-Barb
<www.jamlady.eboard.com>
"If you're ever in a jam, here I am."

In article >,
(Dan Abel) wrote:

> In article <Qbwwb.96951$Dw6.476112@attbi_s02>, Julia Altshuler
> > wrote:
> > It was when we were actually choosing a restaurant that I started to see
> > the extent of the problem. We walked by dozens. In each case, he'd
> > look at the menu in the window and shake his head because there was
> > nothing there he could eat. He'd consult with his wife, and if he did

> I don't understand. I'm not very assertive about such things myself, and
> maybe things are different in Paris, but in the US it is pretty common for
> people to have their food customized the way they want it. Even at
> McDonalds you can ask for no onions, or whatever. If one of these
> restaurants you bypassed had pasta, couldn't he just ask for it plain with
> no sauce? Or eggs with no cheese or ham?

Ayup. SIL WhatshisnamehisnameisJamie loves the Sweet-Sour Chicken at
the Vietnamese restaurant we frequent. He orders it without the
vegetables. :-/ He is served the chicken meat and the sauce and rice.
His daughter loves the egg rolls. And he's become fond of the eggrolls,
too. Jeez, there may be hope after all!
--
-Barb
<www.jamlady.eboard.com>
"If you're ever in a jam, here I am."

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:25:25 GMT, Julia Altshuler
> wrote:

>-L. wrote:
>
>> Why do people like this even bother going to Europe, or out of the
>> States, for that matter? I mean, I have been in some places with
>> *weird* food, and ate it anyway, graciously. Sheesh.

I've always liked Alan Zelt(?)'s sig:

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

>since it was a work-related
>relationship, we were especially accomodating. In fact, it turned into
>a bit of friction between Jim and me since I was ready to lose the fussy
>coworkers faster, and he was more willing to put up with them for the
>sake of work. He's a nicer person than I am.
>
>As for why he bothered going to Europe, that's where the customer is.
>The men were working. The women went along for the trip. The 3 year
>old went with her parents. We all took several extra days when not
>working to sightsee.

Did you ever see 'Two for the Road' (Audrey Hepburn, Albert Finney)?
There's a hilarious segment about traveling with another couple and
their poisonous young daughter.

It really seems a shame to be restricted to diner/hamburger food in
France, f'r heaven's sake. My patience would have been exhausted by a
single experience. Easy to work out better plans with 20/20 hindsight.
And of course, you gained a store of anecdotes. :-)

Julia Altshuler wrote:

>We're back from 10 days in France.

[snip the finicky eater stuff]

Congratulations on being a such a gracious, considerate, travel companion.

Unlike the other posters getting their 'dignant on, I find that making
reasonable accomodation for others' peculiarities more satisfying than opening
a can of whupass at the slightest provocation.

Now if you would, could you regale us with the gustatory adventures you
experience whilst sneaking off on your own? Not the whole itinerary of course,
merely the high notes?

Best,

Marc

"jmcquown" > wrote in
:


snip
>
> Go Wild finding the Golden Arches... McDonald's indeed.
>
Back in my printer development days, our group used
to go to Japan at least 4-5 times a year.
There were many new things to try in Hachioji and Tokyo
and the Japanese engineers took great delight in introducing
the group to many new things and observing the faces of the diners.
Things such as sea urchin, (and all things gelatinous were
the preferred items to try on the guests.)
The best was Kobe beef, the worst; sea urchin which to me,
tastes like the smell of a dock in high summer at low tide.


Most everyone was open minded enough to at least try_
the dish except for one guy from the Marketing department.
He became legendary upon his insistence on finding a local
McDonalds for several Big Macs.
But at least he declined dinner with the group and went off on his own,
instead of forcing the entire group to accomodate his
dietary preferences, unlike these people Lia was with.

I personally don't understand not trying something at least
once. No one says you have to like it.

Terri

On 25 Nov 2003 14:21:49 GMT, (MrAoD) wrote:

>Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
>>We're back from 10 days in France.
>
>[snip the finicky eater stuff]
>
>Congratulations on being a such a gracious, considerate, travel companion.
>
>Unlike the other posters getting their 'dignant on, I find that making
>reasonable accomodation for others' peculiarities more satisfying than opening
>a can of whupass at the slightest provocation.

Long distance between whupass and "reasonable accomodation." You
accomodate the peculiarities of family and good friends. You put up
with, to some extent, the bizarre behahavior of business colleagues.
Imagine traveling to Italy accompanied by non-intimates with no
interest in history, architecture, art, food, or wine, who simply
wanted to buy shoes! There are differences between (semi-) forced
and natural social interactions. Julia et ux were amazingly agreeable.
I hope they get a chance for a more enjoyable trip soon.

Naomi Darvell wrote:

> What is up with people that are "picky" on that sort of level? I've dealt with
> some of them, and I've no doubt from the way they act that they find their
> distaste for various foods really, really severe. But it seems as if it almost
> must be some kind of recognized disorder, like a phobia or hypochondria or
> something.


My phrase for it is "sub-clinical eating disorder." As with any mental
illness, it is a matter of degree, a matter of separating out normal
variation from going off the deep end. We all have our likes and
dislikes meaning that we're all picky to a degree. I agree with you
that taken to the extent this guy does, it becomes an illness.


I'm not sure what a psychologist would recommend as a cure, but I can
say what worked in my life. I was a picky kid. My parents spent a lot
of time arguing with me about eating. They didn't yell. They didn't
punish. Mostly they tried to explain why I should eat something I
didn't want to eat. No matter what they said, I always understood the
underlying message as getting me to do something I didn't want to do. I
didn't understand it myself. I WANTED to be normal and not be in all
those embarrassing situations of turning down food but didn't know how
to change. (Meanwhile, I was a healthy weight and growing despite my
limited diet.)

When I got to college, no one cared what I ate. I can't put my finger
on any one moment when it happened, but food started looking better to
me little by little. I'm still not eager to try new foods. I have to
warm up to them slowly, take a bite this time and 2 bites next time.


In fact, that came up this trip. We visited friends in Nevers. They
served blood sausage. I tried it, admitted that it was mild and tasty,
couldn't get past the idea of what it was made from. It looked all
black and weird. These are friends I know well enough to feel
comfortable with. My hostess was concerned that I didn't like lunch. I
told the truth that lunch was good but that I was struggling with my own
idiosyncrasis. She offered to make me something else. I refused. I'd
eaten the salad and the vegetable. I may feel comfortable with my
friends, but I'm still not letting a hostess get up and make something
special for me because I'm being picky. (Jim loved it and finished the
sausage on my plate.)

I do wonder if this guy's attitudes would change if more people were
less accomodating. Invite him over for dinner and let him eat bread and
watch while everyone else enjoys soup, salad, vegetables, meat and
dessert. Invite him to a restaurant in Paris and let him take
responsibility himself for explaining to the waiter or eating only the
pommes frites (fries). I suspect that he's too old and too far gone for
that to work.

(I didn't tell the story earlier about the days he and Jim were at work
where the guys in the French office took them out to lunch. He did the
same thing to THEM! Their French host drove around trying to find a
Chinese restaurant that had plain fried rice with the right ingredients.
Come to think of it, I wasn't there, but that incident might be the
one that makes me angry instead of laughing it off. In past trips (8
years ago and for a different company), the guys in the French office
might take us out at night. I always liked meeting them. For this
trip, they might have felt odd about wanting to take out Jim but not
wanting to deal again with the picky coworker.)

I want to reiterate for everyone that the trip was NOT ruined. There
were only a few meals where eating with this couple was an issue.
Whether I managed it politely or not, I did get the chance to eat on my
own or just eat with Jim. More on that in the next note.

--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message news:Qbwwb.96951$Dw6.476112@attbi_s02...

> But this is food related. On the first day, the man mentioned being
> picky about food. I could relate since I can be fairly picky myself,
> but I'd never met anything like this before.

<<snip of picky eating to the max story>>

My brother, his wife and two of their three children are only slightly less
picky than the man you describe. They do many of the same things, like tell
their children that they won't like something that they themselves have
never tried. How they ended up with one daughter who loves to try new foods
is beyond me.

Anyway, a number of years ago my brother, his wife and their oldest daughter
went to Europe to visit family in the military. While over there they
visited a number of countries. When they got back my niece wrote a paper for
school describing the trip. I think she was in third grade at the time.
Someone reading that paper might have thought that her parents worked for
Burger King and they were visiting locations throughout Europe. "We went to
Paris. I saw the Eiffel tower. We had lunch at Burger King. Then we went to
London and ate at Burger King. We ate at a Burger King in Scotland" It was
too funny, but not surprising. I'm just glad I wasn't along with them. Food
is the main reason I'd want to take a trip to Europe it would have driven me
crazy.

-Mike

In article <XfLwb.302368$Tr4.958776@attbi_s03>, Julia Altshuler
> wrote:


> My phrase for it is "sub-clinical eating disorder." As with any mental
> illness, it is a matter of degree, a matter of separating out normal
> variation from going off the deep end. We all have our likes and
> dislikes meaning that we're all picky to a degree. I agree with you
> that taken to the extent this guy does, it becomes an illness.
>
>
> I'm not sure what a psychologist would recommend as a cure, but I can
> say what worked in my life. I was a picky kid. My parents spent a lot
> of time arguing with me about eating. They didn't yell. They didn't
> punish. Mostly they tried to explain why I should eat something I

> to change. (Meanwhile, I was a healthy weight and growing despite my
> limited diet.)

I am a picky eater. Like you, I was even pickier as a child. However, my
parents *did* punish me. I spent many hours at the kitchen table, long
after everyone else had left, because I wouldn't eat something, usually
meat. My father had taken a college nutrition class back in the dark
ages, and was taught that meat was the only source of complete protein,
and so everybody *had* to eat meat or be malnourished. My mother came
from a poor family, and they could only afford meat once a week. I missed
a lot of desserts. I did grow, to 6'2", and although I was healthy, I did
not have a normal weight. Try to imagine 135 pounds spread out over
6'2". It was not a pretty sight. Not only did I have no fat, there
wasn't enough weight for most muscles either. My arms and legs looked
like sticks. In PE, I was not able to do the things that most kids
could. I could run fast for a short distance, but couldn't run, even
slowly, for longer distances (the asthma didn't help either). I don't
believe I could do a single pushup.

Like you, once I reached college and didn't have anybody telling me what
to eat, I started to gain weight. Unfortunately, I didn't stop gaining,
and was over 200 pounds at one point. My doctor told me that it wasn't
healthy to be that heavy, due to high blood pressure and borderline
diabetes, and so I cut back on the food and lost 30 pounds. I've gained
about 10 of it back, but I'm still at a pretty good weight.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

MrAoD wrote:

> Now if you would, could you regale us with the gustatory adventures you
> experience whilst sneaking off on your own? Not the whole itinerary of course,
> merely the high notes?


I'm glad you asked:-)

In a Tunisian restaurant in the Latin quarter, the waiter (owner?) put
down a small dish of something orange and said that it was "piquant." I
asked Jim what it was, and he'd heard "pecan," but I still wasn't sure
so I let him try it first. It turned out to be cooked, cold carrots in
the most wonderful spicy paste. We ordered tagines there. Mine was
chicken stew cooked in a sweet raisin liquid. Jim's was lamb with
prunes and a bean like a mung bean.

We went to a French restaurant in the Latin quarter twice where Jim got
duck. He liked it so much that he ordered it again when he went back.
I saw "pintarde" on the menu and asked what it was, learned that it is a
sort of guinea hen closely related to chicken. I'd never had it before
so I ordered it and liked it but liked the side dishes more-- scalloped
potatoes, carrot puree and those thin green beans. The vegetable purees
are something we don't get here. They're a vegetable and cream mixture
that comes out thicker than soup but thinner than what you usually think
of as a vegetable. When we went back, I got a curry lamb that came in a
big pot like dish that it was cooked in.

We went to the same restaurant twice because we had a bad experience at
a different place, were tired and not in the mood to take chances.
(This had nothing to do with the coworkers.) The bad experience had an
inexpensive prix fixe in the window that wasn't offered to us when we
sat down. Then a noisy group of smokers sat down near us, and the place
filled up which made it more of a nightclub type bar than a quiet place
to eat. Nonetheless, my food was great. I got the potato and chevre
appetizer that I mentioned in another thread and a beef and chestnut
bourginone that was hot and wonderful. Jim's duck was overcooked there.
The waiter asked if he wanted it done medium. He emphatically said
that he wanted it rare, and we wonder if the waiter misunderstood his
emphasis for sarcasm.

While on my own, I tried to limit myself to fruit from the outdoor
markets and pastries. I liked the almond croissant on the first day so
much that it took an act of will to make myself eat the strawberry
tartes and sable cookies for variety.

A big part of the appeal is in the service. Breakfast in the hotel was
croissants, french bread, butter, jam, juice and coffe or tea. That's
nothing special, but the breakfast room was so small and cozy (not fancy
at all), and the waiter was so kind that it made me wish I could eat
that way all the time at home until I remembered that I do eat good
bread and butter and jam at home.

A more elegant meal was in the cafeteria in the Musee d'Orsay. We were
eating at 3:00p so there was a limited menu, but we got salads with
cheese on toasts that were very good. Still, the memorable part of that
meal was the amazing elegant high ceilings of what might have been the
restaurant when the building was a train station.

I also enjoyed the epicerie that's part of the department store Bon
Marche. Some of the items are available in the U.S. like the
chocolates, but the variety and the displays were wonderful.

I love the informal couscous restaurants where you get a steaming plate
of couscous with a tomato broth that has big chunks of carrots, turnips
and zucchini in it to spoon over. That's something I have to remember
to make at home.

--Lia

Naomi Darvell wrote:

> I think you're right; it is a continuum. A book by Jeffrey Steingarten, The Man
> Who Ate Everything, has a chapter on how people come by their food aversions.
> Most of it's in childhood.

I looked at the Steingarten book the last time it was mentioned here. I
thought he had a lot of good points about food aversions but didn't
agree with him when he got on the subject of food that causes symptoms.
He made it sound like all the people who are sure certain foods upset
their stomach or give them hives or make them sneeze are crazy. If
that's the case, I'm glad to be crazy because I feel much healthier that
way.


> I can remember how strong food aversions felt then
> (do you have more taste buds when you're younger?).

The scientists do say that children are more drawn to sweets while
adults will tolerate and enjoy hot and bitter foods, but for me, my
aversions had nothing to do with taste and everything to do with not
liking the idea. If I'd had the vocabulary, I wouldn't have said "I
don't like it." I would have said "the idea of eating something green
and slimy doesn't appeal even though I honestly don't know how it
tastes." That was the essence of my parents' argument. They'd say "how
do you know you don't like it when you haven't tried it," and I didn't
have an answer that I could express in words. There's no way to express
that emotion. (Whenever I see parents forcing children to eat something
they have a strong emotional feeling against, I like to imagine reticent
kids 15 years later being convinced to try illegal drugs for the first
time with the argument that they should just try it. A little caution
about new things is good.)

My guess is that with most
> people aversions tone down (like the way you describe it happening for
> yourself) or at least don't get any worse with age. But with some people,
> there's some mental or physical block. I would love to read more about it.

Yes. Usually the discussion revolves around etiquette and how annoying
picky people are, not the physical or emotional reasons behind it.

>
> BTW, I'm not criticizing the way you handled it. I've traveled and dined with
> people who had all kinds of weird habits and usually I just put up with it, and
> leave a big tip for anyone who waits on us.


Thanks. The funny thing about the whole situation is that I've done
such a flip-flop in my own mind. Whenever people on this list have said
something about inviting people over and serving foods they know the
guests won't like, I've been the first to say that having guests and
friends is not about making a point. Being a host is about making
guests feel welcome and comfortable, not about proving that their habits
are wrong. The calm, rational part of me is sure that it isn't my job
to teach this guy manners or eating habits. That was up to his mother.
The irritated part of me is thinking of all sorts of tricks I could
have played on him.

--Lia

Dan Abel wrote:

> I am a picky eater. Like you, I was even pickier as a child. However, my
> parents *did* punish me. I spent many hours at the kitchen table, long
> after everyone else had left, because I wouldn't eat something, usually
> meat. My father had taken a college nutrition class back in the dark
> ages, and was taught that meat was the only source of complete protein,
> and so everybody *had* to eat meat or be malnourished. My mother came
> from a poor family, and they could only afford meat once a week. I missed
> a lot of desserts. I did grow, to 6'2", and although I was healthy, I did
> not have a normal weight. Try to imagine 135 pounds spread out over
> 6'2". It was not a pretty sight. Not only did I have no fat, there
> wasn't enough weight for most muscles either. My arms and legs looked
> like sticks. In PE, I was not able to do the things that most kids
> could. I could run fast for a short distance, but couldn't run, even
> slowly, for longer distances (the asthma didn't help either). I don't
> believe I could do a single pushup.
>
> Like you, once I reached college and didn't have anybody telling me what
> to eat, I started to gain weight. Unfortunately, I didn't stop gaining,
> and was over 200 pounds at one point. My doctor told me that it wasn't
> healthy to be that heavy, due to high blood pressure and borderline
> diabetes, and so I cut back on the food and lost 30 pounds. I've gained
> about 10 of it back, but I'm still at a pretty good weight.


How awful! I never know what to say when I hear about people's
experiences with early child abuse (and what your parents did was a form
of it no matter what their misconceptions and motivations). It sounds
like you've done wonderfully well at overcoming it-- maybe not a perfect
job, but pretty good.

I can't agree when you say you were healthy. Not being strong enough to
run with the other kids doesn't sound like good health to me.

As for managing your weight now, I know I should leave that to you and
your doctor, but I can't help mentioning exercise. It is so normal for
discussions of weight to center all on food when exercise is such a big
part of the equation. I've never been particularly overweight, but at
my age (45), I'm discovering how important aerobics and weight training
are in a healthy diet. (I hate them both and begrudgingly admit that
they work.)

--Lia

Naomi Darvell wrote:
> Julia wrote:

> >I looked at the Steingarten book the last time it was mentioned here. I
> >thought he had a lot of good points about food aversions but didn't
> >agree with him when he got on the subject of food that causes symptoms.

> Oh, on the subject of diet, he seems to be deliberately perverse sometimes. He
> recently wrote about being on the Atkins diet. He couldn't understand why he
> wasn't losing weight-- and he was living on Scotch and foie gras, or something
> like that.

I just saw him on some morning show just this week, I didn't
recognise him immediately, he was quite large.

nancy

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:39:38 -0600, "jmcquown"
> wrote:

>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
>> COTTP > wrote:
>>
>>> This is why they consider most Americans so crass. I will not permit
>>> myself to set foot into any part of Europe that doesn't have English
>>> as a native language until I learn the language of that country.
>>>
>> Agus cathain a bhfuil sé ar intinn agat cuairt a thabhairt ar Eirinn?
>
>Sorry, but I lost my Gaelic dictionary
>
>Jill McQuown
>
i think they call it 'irish' now.

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 02:21:45 GMT, "Jack Schidt®"
> wrote:
>
>I'll go on record and take the lumps but it's been my experience that picky
>eaters are lousy in bed. No syrup on that vanilla.
>
>Jack Pick
>
this is an interesting hypothesis.

your pal,
ruth

COTTP wrote:

> This is why they consider most Americans so crass. I will not permit
> myself to set foot into any part of Europe that doesn't have English as
> a native language until I learn the language of that country. I expect
> my experience would be much different if I were able to speak the
> language - that's my only criteria.

It is certainly not my criterion. I have can speak enough French and German to
get by, but it was more usual for them to resort to English, since most
Europeans can speak English. Between the three languages I rarely had trouble
communicating. I as usually looking for food or accommodation, not
conversation, and never had trouble getting what I wanted. I would hate to
have ruled out a trip to Denmark for lack of learning a language that is
extremely difficult to master, but almost everyone there speaks English.