It must be October
 

You can tell because the Christmas trees are on display at BJ's. A sure
sign that fall is here.

It must be October
 

"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
> You can tell because the Christmas trees are on display at BJ's. A sure
> sign that fall is here.

I put out the electric jack-o-lanterns on our front porch (not plugged in
yet, tho!).

Van

It must be October
 

On Oct 1, 5:54*am, "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:
> You can tell because

You can tell in MY house - it's cooler now and I lit the oven to make
a peach cake. I'm back to my winter menus and will get ambitious
about doing a lot of cooking and freezing, now that 'cane season is
virtually behind us.

Xmas is not a big deal for me. I shop in five minutes, do cards in
ten and decorate in 20. Too much hoopla for me. I used to knock
myself out, but didn't really enjoy it.

I know a lot of ppl who are just ruling out the gifting entirely.
Schmart.

It must be October
 

Kalmia wrote:

> You can tell in MY house - it's cooler now and I lit the oven to make
> a peach cake. I'm back to my winter menus and will get ambitious
> about doing a lot of cooking and freezing, now that 'cane season is
> virtually behind us.


I turned on the furnace last night. I am in a bit of a bind. I am
getting a new furnace in three weeks, switching from oil to natural gas.
I have about 1/4 tank of oil left in the tank. I may as well use it
up. I am being charged for the removal of the oil, but get nothing for
the oil. However, it is going to get cooler and I don't want to run out
before the new furnace arrives and gas hooked up.



> Xmas is not a big deal for me. I shop in five minutes, do cards in
> ten and decorate in 20. Too much hoopla for me. I used to knock
> myself out, but didn't really enjoy it.

My wife does the seasonal decorations. Since this is the beginning of
October she will probably start working on it soon. A few years ago when
we went up to Montreal to visit our son for Thanksgiving he joked to his
girlfriend that his mother would bring a Thanksgiving kit. Sure
enough.... gourds, red leaves, Indian corn etc. When the snow hits she
will be taking down the Thanksgiving decorations and start on Christmas.


> I know a lot of ppl who are just ruling out the gifting entirely.
> Schmart.


I keep saying that we will cut back, but we never seem to. I used to
exchange with my brothers and their wives but when we started had kids
we gave to the kids instead. I cut that out the year that no one
bothered buying birthday presents for my son. I figured that I was
buying birthday presents and Christmas presents for 12 nieces and
nephews, and if none of his aunts or uncles could bother getting him a
birthday present I wasn't going to go to the effort and expense to buy
presents for all their kids.

That year my mother re-introduced the old family deal with the $5 gift
exchange, each person bringing a gift worth no more than $5 and we would
draw numbers. As people took their turns they could take an unopened
gift, or they could take on from someone else, but a gift could not be
taken more than twice. Curiously, one of my SiL's thought that was
totally unfair. She had four kids. Two of us had only one and another
had 2 and she was unhappy that we only had to provide one gift for our
child but she had to buy four. She didn't seem to see the unfairness in
my having to buy four birthday gifts and four Christmas gifts .... 8 in
total, each of which would have been more than the total for 4 $5 gifts.

Bah Humbug.

It must be October
 

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>
> I turned on the furnace last night. I am in a bit of a bind. I am getting
> a new furnace in three weeks, switching from oil to natural gas. I have
> about 1/4 tank of oil left in the tank. I may as well use it up. I am
> being charged for the removal of the oil, but get nothing for the oil.
> However, it is going to get cooler and I don't want to run out before the
> new furnace arrives and gas hooked up.
>

If it runs out, you have the inconvenience of dumping in 5 gallons of diesel
but at least the cost is not so much.

Wish I could get gas. I did put in a new System 2000 oil boiler in December
and my fuel use dropped 32% so far. I say so far, because the summer water
heating is even greater savings and I won't know until I fill the tank in
maybe another month. With the old boiler I've have filled in April and be
ready to fill now. The February fill-up is still only half gone.

You'll like the gas much better, IMO. Let us know how it goes when it gets
cold again.

It must be October
 

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> If it runs out, you have the inconvenience of dumping in 5 gallons of diesel
> but at least the cost is not so much.
>
> Wish I could get gas. I did put in a new System 2000 oil boiler in December
> and my fuel use dropped 32% so far. I say so far, because the summer water
> heating is even greater savings and I won't know until I fill the tank in
> maybe another month. With the old boiler I've have filled in April and be
> ready to fill now. The February fill-up is still only half gone.


This has been a frustrating and expensive experience for me. My oil
furnace is old and in need of replacing. We did not have a gas line down
our road and it would have cost megabucks to have one put in. Three
years ago my insurance company made me replace my oil thank. There was
nothing wrong with it, but it was more than 25 years old... probably
closer to 50. It cost me $200o for the tank and installation. Just a
few months after the new tank was installed they put in a gas line for a
house that was being built across the road from us. They extended it
past his place right up to the middle of my front yard and told me I
could hookup with no charge because the the first 20 meters is free and
it is only about 12 m. ($39 per m. past that). I got two winters out of
it but now it is time to fix the furnace. Unfortunately, it conked out
in March and cost close to $200 for repairs.





> You'll like the gas much better, IMO. Let us know how it goes when it gets
> cold again.

I am also getting a gas water heater and while they are at it they are
installing a high efficiency AC. That may be money wasted because we
have lots of trees around the yard and I have not used my AC for the
last two summers. Everyone I know who has switched from oil to gas say
they have saved a lot on heating.

It must be October
 

Dave Smith wrote:
>
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >
> > If it runs out, you have the inconvenience of dumping in 5 gallons of diesel
> > but at least the cost is not so much.
> >
> > Wish I could get gas. I did put in a new System 2000 oil boiler in December
> > and my fuel use dropped 32% so far. I say so far, because the summer water
> > heating is even greater savings and I won't know until I fill the tank in
> > maybe another month. With the old boiler I've have filled in April and be
> > ready to fill now. The February fill-up is still only half gone.
>
> This has been a frustrating and expensive experience for me. My oil
> furnace is old and in need of replacing. We did not have a gas line down
> our road and it would have cost megabucks to have one put in. Three
> years ago my insurance company made me replace my oil thank. There was
> nothing wrong with it, but it was more than 25 years old... probably
> closer to 50. It cost me $200o for the tank and installation. Just a
> few months after the new tank was installed they put in a gas line for a
> house that was being built across the road from us. They extended it
> past his place right up to the middle of my front yard and told me I
> could hookup with no charge because the the first 20 meters is free and
> it is only about 12 m. ($39 per m. past that). I got two winters out of
> it but now it is time to fix the furnace. Unfortunately, it conked out
> in March and cost close to $200 for repairs.
>
> > You'll like the gas much better, IMO. Let us know how it goes when it gets
> > cold again.
>
> I am also getting a gas water heater and while they are at it they are
> installing a high efficiency AC. That may be money wasted because we
> have lots of trees around the yard and I have not used my AC for the
> last two summers. Everyone I know who has switched from oil to gas say
> they have saved a lot on heating.

Key things to remember when analyzing oil vs. gas:

- Oil and Nat. Gas both fluctuate widely in price.

- With Nat. Gas you have only one choice of supplier and no real ability
to pre-purchase, and no backup on the rare occasions that gas service is
interrupted.

- With Oil you have multiple supplier choice, ability to pre-purchase
and store, and backup of on-site fuel buffer plus the ability to source
from another supplier or the diesel pump at the gas station if your
normal supplier is unavailable for some reason.

- Be very wary of word of mouth "I saved a ton of money" claims from
folks who have switched in either direction. Generally these claims are
based on the $ per month or per fill, not on $/BTU, they don't account
for the fact that the switch typically replaced a 30 year old furnace
with a new one high efficiency one, and sometimes include unrelated
savings such as added insulation at the same time. To get a real
comparison you have to run the numbers for your home size, and the
efficiencies of a new oil and a new gas furnace, not compare to a 30yr
old one.

- If you are adding Nat. Gas to your home you must invest in a decent CO
/ Gas detector to be safe. You should have a CO detector anyway if you
had an oil furnace, but with the added danger of a gas leak, a gas
detector is a must and not very expensive.

It must be October
 

Pete C. wrote:


>
> Key things to remember when analyzing oil vs. gas:
>
> - Oil and Nat. Gas both fluctuate widely in price.

Thar's true, but oil seems to fluctuate a lot more than gas. two years
ago I was paying $1.27 per litre for heating oil. It dropped last year
and is probably a lot lower now, but when oil prices spiked gas was more
reasonable.


> - Be very wary of word of mouth "I saved a ton of money" claims from
> folks who have switched in either direction. Generally these claims are
> based on the $ per month or per fill, not on $/BTU, they don't account
> for the fact that the switch typically replaced a 30 year old furnace
> with a new one high efficiency one, and sometimes include unrelated
> savings such as added insulation at the same time. To get a real
> comparison you have to run the numbers for your home size, and the
> efficiencies of a new oil and a new gas furnace, not compare to a 30yr
> old one.

One neighbour down the road has a house about the same as mine and his
natural gas bill was about half my oil bill. My next door neighbour
moved in two years ago, after the gas line came down as far as my place.
When they got their first load of oil they freaked and switched to gas.
It cost them a lot more for the hook up because their house is so far
back, but their house is larger than mine and their gas billw as lower
than my oil bill.


> - If you are adding Nat. Gas to your home you must invest in a decent CO
> / Gas detector to be safe. You should have a CO detector anyway if you
> had an oil furnace, but with the added danger of a gas leak, a gas
> detector is a must and not very expensive.

I already have two CO detectors. FWIW, they are now required by law
here. The parents of a friend of my son got CO poisoning last year and
almost died. It seems there was some sort of nest in the exhaust system.

It must be October
 

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> You can tell because the Christmas trees are on display at BJ's. A sure
> sign that fall is here.

Some of the places locally had Christmas stuff on display in August!

No one is allowed to enjoy a season for what it is any more. Having said
that, bought a couple of Christmas items to finish off some craft
projects to be sold at a fair at the end of this month. Hated to do it
but a deadline is a deadline ;P

It must be October
 

Dave Smith wrote:
>
> Pete C. wrote:
>
> >
> > Key things to remember when analyzing oil vs. gas:
> >
> > - Oil and Nat. Gas both fluctuate widely in price.
>
> Thar's true, but oil seems to fluctuate a lot more than gas. two years
> ago I was paying $1.27 per litre for heating oil. It dropped last year
> and is probably a lot lower now, but when oil prices spiked gas was more
> reasonable.
>
> > - Be very wary of word of mouth "I saved a ton of money" claims from
> > folks who have switched in either direction. Generally these claims are
> > based on the $ per month or per fill, not on $/BTU, they don't account
> > for the fact that the switch typically replaced a 30 year old furnace
> > with a new one high efficiency one, and sometimes include unrelated
> > savings such as added insulation at the same time. To get a real
> > comparison you have to run the numbers for your home size, and the
> > efficiencies of a new oil and a new gas furnace, not compare to a 30yr
> > old one.
>
> One neighbour down the road has a house about the same as mine and his
> natural gas bill was about half my oil bill.

How much newer is their furnace?

That is my point, if you switch fuels (requiring new equipment), you
will certainly see a savings, but it does not mean that the new fuel is
actually cheaper. A new gas furnace will be cheaper to operate than a
30yr old oil furnace, just as a new oil furnace will be cheaper to
operate than a 30yr old gas furnace.

If you are contemplating replacing your furnace, you have to compare
operating costs of a new gas furnace and a new oil furnace to get the
truth, not compare one brand new units operating cost to an obsolete
units operating cost.

> My next door neighbour
> moved in two years ago, after the gas line came down as far as my place.
> When they got their first load of oil they freaked and switched to gas.
> It cost them a lot more for the hook up because their house is so far
> back, but their house is larger than mine and their gas billw as lower
> than my oil bill.

There is a lot of such freaking by folks who are math challenged and
can't comprehend that the cost to fill the oil tank is *not* a monthly
cost like the gas bill is. An oil fill represents anywhere from about 3
to 9 months depending on the area and season. A $500 oil tank fill and a
$75 gas bill may well represent the same actual operating cost, but with
our failing schools, few people can do the math.

>
> > - If you are adding Nat. Gas to your home you must invest in a decent CO
> > / Gas detector to be safe. You should have a CO detector anyway if you
> > had an oil furnace, but with the added danger of a gas leak, a gas
> > detector is a must and not very expensive.
>
> I already have two CO detectors. FWIW, they are now required by law
> here. The parents of a friend of my son got CO poisoning last year and
> almost died. It seems there was some sort of nest in the exhaust system.

So are you getting a *gas* detector? That was my point, a CO detector
won't warn you of a gas leak, you need a gas detector for that. An oil
leak makes a stinky expensive mess to cleanup, but a gas leak can kill
you and destroy your entire home. A $50 gas detector is a lot cheaper
than a new house (even with good insurance) and cheaper than a funeral.

Kiddie / Nighthawk has a decent combo CO / Gas detector. I have one,
even though the only gas in my house is LP for the cooktop. Gas
detectors are standard equipment in most every RV, I'm still surprised
they aren't required in homes.

It must be October
 

Pete C. wrote:


> There is a lot of such freaking by folks who are math challenged and
> can't comprehend that the cost to fill the oil tank is *not* a monthly
> cost like the gas bill is. An oil fill represents anywhere from about 3
> to 9 months depending on the area and season. A $500 oil tank fill and a
> $75 gas bill may well represent the same actual operating cost, but with
> our failing schools, few people can do the math.

3-5 months on a tank of oil?? I wish. During the winter it gets filled
monthly, and a tank full of oil is more than $600. My equal billing for
10 months was over $330 per month. When I cancelled the account in
April, before they filled it again, I had a $905 credit. The equal
billing had been boosted that year by about $30 because the winter
before heating oil was $1.26 per litre, For some reason, it seems to
sell for the same as gasoline, which is now running about 88 cents per
litre. So it may be cheaper this year, but wif it bounces back up it
will put me in the poor house.



> So are you getting a *gas* detector? That was my point, a CO detector
> won't warn you of a gas leak, you need a gas detector for that. An oil
> leak makes a stinky expensive mess to cleanup, but a gas leak can kill
> you and destroy your entire home. A $50 gas detector is a lot cheaper
> than a new house (even with good insurance) and cheaper than a funeral.

Sounds like a good idea. I didn`t know that there was such a thing. I
didn`t see any when I was looking for a CO detector last year.

> Kiddie / Nighthawk has a decent combo CO / Gas detector. I have one,
> even though the only gas in my house is LP for the cooktop. Gas
> detectors are standard equipment in most every RV, I'm still surprised
> they aren't required in homes.

Perhaps because there is not as much movement ?
There was a gas explosion in a house about 10 miles from here. I thought
that it was NG but it turned out that it was propane. Apparently there
was a rupture in the line where it came into the house. It blew in the
middle of the night and the occupant of the house was killed. There was
not much left of the house. It was literally blown apart.

It must be October
 

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:54:05 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" > fired
up random neurons and synapses to opine:

>You can tell because the Christmas trees are on display at BJ's. A sure
>sign that fall is here.
>
I have long been of the opinion that there oughtta be a law forbidding
the placement of Christmas displays before Thanksgiving...or at least
Halloween, for cryin' out loud!

OB: I am so going to make the Christmas Cheesecake With English Toffee
Filling this year. I got it outta Bon Appetit a while back and I'm
determined to make it this year instead of my usual Buche de Noel.

Terry "Squeaks" Pulliam Burd

--

"If the soup had been as hot as the claret, if the claret had been as
old as the bird, and if the bird's breasts had been as full as the
waitress's, it would have been a very good dinner."

- Duncan Hines

To reply, replace "meatloaf" with "cox"

It must be October
 

"Stu" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:36:00 -0400, Dave Smith >
> wrote:
>
> -->Perhaps because there is not as much movement ?
> -->There was a gas explosion in a house about 10 miles from here. I
> thought
> -->that it was NG but it turned out that it was propane. Apparently there
> -->was a rupture in the line where it came into the house. It blew in the
> -->middle of the night and the occupant of the house was killed. There
> was
> -->not much left of the house. It was literally blown apart.
>
> Had a friend who's house had a tank in the basement. He went to a wedding
> and
> when he came back his house was gone, seems the tank ruptured and drained
> half
> its contents in the basement, pilot light ignited it and POOF.
> He was to have the tank removed and a lenox furnace installed in three
> weeks.
> I never saw the fire but I heard it was a big one.

Propane tank in the basement? Not allowed here.

Propane is heavier than air so it can easily accumulate even compared to NG.

It must be October
 

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>
> Thar's true, but oil seems to fluctuate a lot more than gas. two years ago
> I was paying $1.27 per litre for heating oil. It dropped last year and is
> probably a lot lower now, but when oil prices spiked gas was more
> reasonable.


Today's price here in CT is 2.30 a gallon.

It must be October
 

"Pete C." > wrote in message
> - Be very wary of word of mouth "I saved a ton of money" claims from
> folks who have switched in either direction. Generally these claims are
> based on the $ per month or per fill, not on $/BTU, they don't account
> for the fact that the switch typically replaced a 30 year old furnace
> with a new one high efficiency one, and sometimes include unrelated
> savings such as added insulation at the same time. To get a real
> comparison you have to run the numbers for your home size, and the
> efficiencies of a new oil and a new gas furnace, not compare to a 30yr
> old one.

That is true when comparing fuels, but changing to a new boiler or furnace
that is 30 years old may make sense from the comparative numbers. I arrived
at my savings by comparing actual oil used on a degree day basis. I saved
32% for that time period in fuel consumption. Given the price fluctuations I
don't save on my annual heating cost at 2.30 a gallon compared to the 75¢ a
gallon it was years ago.

Other things to look at for decision making are other costs and savings. I
was able to get a $500 state rebate, I'm eligible for a $1500 tax credit,
and my state offers 10 year 0% financing on Energy Star equipment. Not to
mention that my heater was 30 years old and would be needing major repairs
or replacement in the next year or two anyway. You lose a lot of
bargaining power in January when the heater dies.

It must be October
 

Dave Smith wrote:
>
> Pete C. wrote:
>
> > There is a lot of such freaking by folks who are math challenged and
> > can't comprehend that the cost to fill the oil tank is *not* a monthly
> > cost like the gas bill is. An oil fill represents anywhere from about 3
> > to 9 months depending on the area and season. A $500 oil tank fill and a
> > $75 gas bill may well represent the same actual operating cost, but with
> > our failing schools, few people can do the math.
>
> 3-5 months on a tank of oil?? I wish. During the winter it gets filled
> monthly, and a tank full of oil is more than $600. My equal billing for
> 10 months was over $330 per month. When I cancelled the account in
> April, before they filled it again, I had a $905 credit. The equal
> billing had been boosted that year by about $30 because the winter
> before heating oil was $1.26 per litre, For some reason, it seems to
> sell for the same as gasoline, which is now running about 88 cents per
> litre. So it may be cheaper this year, but wif it bounces back up it
> will put me in the poor house.

Either you have a really small tank, really cold weather, really poor
insulation, or your oil furnace is really inefficient.

In some 30+ years of experience in a house with poor insulation, a 50yr
old oil boiler (newer burner) running around 80% efficiency, 275gal tank
and Northeast US winters, the tank would indeed last several months
between fills in the winter and 6+ months over the summer.

This is my point about comparing apples to apples. If you replaced your
old inefficient oil furnace with a new oil furnace you'd likely see a
significant savings as the efficiency of a new unit will be much higher.
The efficiency numbers for new oil or gas units are nearly the same, so
comparing new units of both types will give you the true operating cost
comparison.

>
> > So are you getting a *gas* detector? That was my point, a CO detector
> > won't warn you of a gas leak, you need a gas detector for that. An oil
> > leak makes a stinky expensive mess to cleanup, but a gas leak can kill
> > you and destroy your entire home. A $50 gas detector is a lot cheaper
> > than a new house (even with good insurance) and cheaper than a funeral.
>
> Sounds like a good idea. I didn`t know that there was such a thing. I
> didn`t see any when I was looking for a CO detector last year.

Yep, they've been standard in RVs for quite some time.

>
> > Kiddie / Nighthawk has a decent combo CO / Gas detector. I have one,
> > even though the only gas in my house is LP for the cooktop. Gas
> > detectors are standard equipment in most every RV, I'm still surprised
> > they aren't required in homes.
>
> Perhaps because there is not as much movement ?

Yes, not as much movement, however RV gas systems are built to
accommodate movement.

> There was a gas explosion in a house about 10 miles from here. I thought
> that it was NG but it turned out that it was propane. Apparently there
> was a rupture in the line where it came into the house. It blew in the
> middle of the night and the occupant of the house was killed. There was
> not much left of the house. It was literally blown apart.

Yes, gas explosions are nasty whether Nat. Gas or LP. The results are
about the same, however since LP collects low and Nat. Gas rises, you
have to position your gas detector appropriately. If you search online
for news reports you will find gas explosions somewhere monthly or
better in the winter season, and not a lot less frequently in the
summer. Personally I think gas detectors should be required just like CO
detectors and smoke alarms, they aren't very expensive and they can
certainly save quite a few lives.

It must be October
 

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Pete C." > wrote in message
> > - Be very wary of word of mouth "I saved a ton of money" claims from
> > folks who have switched in either direction. Generally these claims are
> > based on the $ per month or per fill, not on $/BTU, they don't account
> > for the fact that the switch typically replaced a 30 year old furnace
> > with a new one high efficiency one, and sometimes include unrelated
> > savings such as added insulation at the same time. To get a real
> > comparison you have to run the numbers for your home size, and the
> > efficiencies of a new oil and a new gas furnace, not compare to a 30yr
> > old one.
>
> That is true when comparing fuels, but changing to a new boiler or furnace
> that is 30 years old may make sense from the comparative numbers. I arrived
> at my savings by comparing actual oil used on a degree day basis. I saved
> 32% for that time period in fuel consumption. Given the price fluctuations I
> don't save on my annual heating cost at 2.30 a gallon compared to the 75¢ a
> gallon it was years ago.

Yours is a good example of why you need to compare apples to apples as
you have shown a 32% savings by replacing your 30yr old unit with a new
high efficiency unit using the same fuel. Far too much marketing hype
from the Nat. Gas monopolies compares apples and oranges showing the big
savings replacing that 30yr old oil unit with a new gas unit, but
neglecting the fact that similar savings can be has with a new oil unit
as well.

>
> Other things to look at for decision making are other costs and savings. I
> was able to get a $500 state rebate, I'm eligible for a $1500 tax credit,
> and my state offers 10 year 0% financing on Energy Star equipment. Not to
> mention that my heater was 30 years old and would be needing major repairs
> or replacement in the next year or two anyway. You lose a lot of
> bargaining power in January when the heater dies.

Yes, lots of tax rebates and financing incentives available for new high
efficiency units in both fuels. And of course as always, adding
insulation is always one of the best ways to save.