Baking has to be an art form all its own. For stovetop cooking and
casseroles, I don't need recipes. I'm good enough with ingredients, herbs
and spices to know what works and what doesn't.

But baking is another story. I typically need a recipe for something
that's expected to rise in the oven. Sometimes I'll come across a recipe
that needs flour and liquid, and I get to the part where I'm told to
"pour" a batter into a pan to be baked. But I can't pour anything. I've
followed the recipe to the letter, and if I'm going to do anything, I must
drop and smear something that, according to the recipe, should be runny
enough to flow to the edges of the pan on its own.

Then I see recipes for, say, biscuits, that calls for 1 1/2 to 2 cups of
buttermilk. Or a pizza dough recipe that calls for 1 to 1 1/2 cups of
water.

Well, the thing about that is, if you add only the one cup, you wont know
it's not enough until you see it's not sticking together at all. Then
adding the remaining half cup to that just makes a complete mess. Or add
the 1 1/2 cups and it turns out to be too much, then you've got to add
more flour. Then you've got dough that's overworked because it's been
meddled with too much, and "they say" that overworked dough is going to
turn out too tough.

So why aren't baking recipes more precise? I know about humidity factors,
but sucking up a few extra molecules of water from the atmosphere seems
far less destructive than knowing exactly how much liquid should go into a
bread or pizza dough recipe to get you started.

Thanks,
Damaeus

In article >,
Damaeus > wrote:

> Baking has to be an art form all its own. For stovetop cooking and
> casseroles, I don't need recipes. I'm good enough with ingredients, herbs
> and spices to know what works and what doesn't.
>
> But baking is another story. I typically need a recipe for something
> that's expected to rise in the oven. Sometimes I'll come across a recipe
> that needs flour and liquid, and I get to the part where I'm told to
> "pour" a batter into a pan to be baked. But I can't pour anything. I've
> followed the recipe to the letter, and if I'm going to do anything, I must
> drop and smear something that, according to the recipe, should be runny
> enough to flow to the edges of the pan on its own.
>
> Then I see recipes for, say, biscuits, that calls for 1 1/2 to 2 cups of
> buttermilk. Or a pizza dough recipe that calls for 1 to 1 1/2 cups of
> water.
>
> Well, the thing about that is, if you add only the one cup, you wont know
> it's not enough until you see it's not sticking together at all. Then
> adding the remaining half cup to that just makes a complete mess.

That's why you add it one Tablespoon at a time until you've got the
right consistency.

Recipes that say "1 to 1 1/2 cups" are making allowances for different
flours and local conditions. The idea is to start with the lower amount
and work up to the higher amount, which is the _most_ they expect you to
have to use, not the next step in the experiment.

> Or add
> the 1 1/2 cups and it turns out to be too much, then you've got to add
> more flour. Then you've got dough that's overworked because it's been
> meddled with too much, and "they say" that overworked dough is going to
> turn out too tough.
>
> So why aren't baking recipes more precise? I know about humidity factors,
> but sucking up a few extra molecules of water from the atmosphere seems
> far less destructive than knowing exactly how much liquid should go into a
> bread or pizza dough recipe to get you started.

Because moisture in the air isn't the only factor that makes a
difference. Flour, air temperature and altitude also count.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

Damaeus wrote:
>
> Baking has to be an art form all its own. For stovetop cooking and
> casseroles, I don't need recipes. I'm good enough with ingredients, herbs
> and spices to know what works and what doesn't.
>
> But baking is another story. I typically need a recipe for something
> that's expected to rise in the oven. Sometimes I'll come across a recipe
> that needs flour and liquid, and I get to the part where I'm told to
> "pour" a batter into a pan to be baked. But I can't pour anything. I've
> followed the recipe to the letter, and if I'm going to do anything, I must
> drop and smear something that, according to the recipe, should be runny
> enough to flow to the edges of the pan on its own.

Any baking recipe is likely to need adjustment to your kitchen, oven
etc. They have been developed under a specific set of conditions
(altitude, humidity etc etc) that probably won't correspond to yours. If
a batter is supposed to pour and doesn't, perhaps more liquid is called
for. That comes with experience.


> Then I see recipes for, say, biscuits, that calls for 1 1/2 to 2 cups of
> buttermilk. Or a pizza dough recipe that calls for 1 to 1 1/2 cups of
> water.

Precisely my point. Dryer flour might require more liquid to achieve the
correct texture.

>
> Well, the thing about that is, if you add only the one cup, you wont know
> it's not enough until you see it's not sticking together at all. Then
> adding the remaining half cup to that just makes a complete mess. Or add
> the 1 1/2 cups and it turns out to be too much, then you've got to add
> more flour. Then you've got dough that's overworked because it's been
> meddled with too much, and "they say" that overworked dough is going to
> turn out too tough.

Add the remaining 1/2 cup one spoon at a time. A correctly written
recipe will mention that. Many recipies are not correctly written or
else make assumptions that the reader will know how to do this or that.
>
> So why aren't baking recipes more precise? I know about humidity factors,
> but sucking up a few extra molecules of water from the atmosphere seems
> far less destructive than knowing exactly how much liquid should go into a
> bread or pizza dough recipe to get you started.
>
> Thanks,
> Damaeus

There is no precision in baking (or any other cooking). There cannot be.
Your oven isn't mine. Your flour isn't mine and isn't stored the same
way. Your measuring cups/spoons won't be the same; they can vary from
the correct volume by 10 percent or more. Which is why weighing is
better for dry ingredients. We are at high altitude, which changes some
things during baking and not others. If I give you a baking recipe
worked out in our kitchen it could well fail spectacularly in yours.

In lab work, everything used is specified from lot numbers to the exact
equipment (the balances eg) model. The glassware is all calibrated to
the same set of standards as in any other lab. Fridges, freezers, ovens
and pumps have accurate thermometers and gauges. Plus large amounts of
money are spent keeping everything working correctly. Most people don't
run their kitchens that way, nice as that would be.

There is no substitute for experience.That's why so many of the great
chefs of the world started apprenticing in their teens. It can take
years to acquire their level of expertise. That doesn't mean you
couldn't sort this out. Make one recipe (pizza dough maybe) a dozen or
so times, noting what didn't work. What you learn will carry over to any
other white bread yeast dough. And so on ad infinitum.

"Damaeus" > wrote in message
...
> Baking has to be an art form all its own. For stovetop cooking and
> casseroles, I don't need recipes. I'm good enough with ingredients, herbs
> and spices to know what works and what doesn't.
>
> But baking is another story. I typically need a recipe for something
> that's expected to rise in the oven. Sometimes I'll come across a recipe
> that needs flour and liquid, and I get to the part where I'm told to
> "pour" a batter into a pan to be baked. But I can't pour anything. I've
> followed the recipe to the letter, and if I'm going to do anything, I must
> drop and smear something that, according to the recipe, should be runny
> enough to flow to the edges of the pan on its own.
>
> Then I see recipes for, say, biscuits, that calls for 1 1/2 to 2 cups of
> buttermilk. Or a pizza dough recipe that calls for 1 to 1 1/2 cups of
> water.
>
> Well, the thing about that is, if you add only the one cup, you wont know
> it's not enough until you see it's not sticking together at all. Then
> adding the remaining half cup to that just makes a complete mess. Or add
> the 1 1/2 cups and it turns out to be too much, then you've got to add
> more flour. Then you've got dough that's overworked because it's been
> meddled with too much, and "they say" that overworked dough is going to
> turn out too tough.
>
> So why aren't baking recipes more precise? I know about humidity factors,
> but sucking up a few extra molecules of water from the atmosphere seems
> far less destructive than knowing exactly how much liquid should go into a
> bread or pizza dough recipe to get you started.


With experience you'll be able to judge baked goods as easily as cooked
dishes... professional bakers don't use any precise measuring, they eyeball
and judge by textures the same as with cooking. Ingredients used in baking
are no more consistantly homogenious than those used for cooking... flours
is always different, so is yeast and eggs, and pabing powder, and chocolate,
and vanilla, whatever... with experinece one learns to interolate by using
their own senses... in fact professional bakers trust their senses more than
measurements.. an experienced baker can tell the condition of a batter/dough
just by looking, by feeling, from accross the room by the sound it makes
slapping the sides of the mixing bowl. One of the every first things a
professional baker does before begining their shift is to check the weather.
Oh, and bakers taste too. Actually baking measurements are less stringent,
that's why bench flour.

In article >,
Damaeus > wrote:

> Baking has to be an art form all its own. For stovetop cooking and
> casseroles, I don't need recipes. I'm good enough with ingredients, herbs
> and spices to know what works and what doesn't.
>
> But baking is another story. I typically need a recipe for something
> that's expected to rise in the oven.

Arri's above discussion covered the ups and downs of baking recipes very
well. I don't bake a lot of things but I do pizza dough fairly often.
The only thing I measure accurately is the water. My basic recipe is 1
cup of warm water in a mixing bowl. Since I let it sit in a sponge for
several hours I just add about a half envelope of dry yeast. I then
add enough all-purpose flour to make a gooey sponge and let it ferment
for a few hours. It then add about a tsp. of salt (measured in the palm
of my hand.) Then a couple of oz. of evoo measured by eye. Then a small
pile of flour. I start kneading with a rubber spatula and add flour as
kneaded (pun). It'll get to a point where you can knead with your hands
and then you can feel when you have the right amount of flour. Then I
let it raise for 2 or 3 hours. It's ready when its more than double in
size.

D.

On Jul 26, 6:22*pm, Miche > wrote:
> In article >,
>
>
>
>
>
> *Damaeus > wrote:
> > Baking has to be an art form all its own. *For stovetop cooking and
> > casseroles, I don't need recipes. *I'm good enough with ingredients, herbs
> > and spices to know what works and what doesn't.
>
> > But baking is another story. *I typically need a recipe for something
> > that's expected to rise in the oven. *Sometimes I'll come across a recipe
> > that needs flour and liquid, and I get to the part where I'm told to
> > "pour" a batter into a pan to be baked. *But I can't pour anything. *I've
> > followed the recipe to the letter, and if I'm going to do anything, I must
> > drop and smear something that, according to the recipe, should be runny
> > enough to flow to the edges of the pan on its own.
>
> > Then I see recipes for, say, biscuits, that calls for 1 1/2 to 2 cups of
> > buttermilk. *Or a pizza dough recipe that calls for 1 to 1 1/2 cups of
> > water.
>
> > Well, the thing about that is, if you add only the one cup, you wont know
> > it's not enough until you see it's not sticking together at all. *Then
> > adding the remaining half cup to that just makes a complete mess.
>
> That's why you add it one Tablespoon at a time until you've got the
> right consistency.
>
> Recipes that say "1 to 1 1/2 cups" are making allowances for different
> flours and local conditions. *The idea is to start with the lower amount
> and work up to the higher amount, which is the _most_ they expect you to
> have to use, not the next step in the experiment.
>

That's what I do with banana pancakes. I use pancake mix (with no
hydrogenated fats), and I add a bit less milk (the instructions say
water), and add more if needed. There was a guy on NPR tonight who
wrote a book on proportions in cooking and baking.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...019060&ps=cprs
>
> Miche
>

--Bryan

"Damaeus" > wrote in message
...
> Baking has to be an art form all its own. For stovetop cooking and
> casseroles, I don't need recipes. I'm good enough with ingredients, herbs
> and spices to know what works and what doesn't.
>
> But baking is another story. I typically need a recipe for something
> that's expected to rise in the oven. Sometimes I'll come across a recipe
> that needs flour and liquid, and I get to the part where I'm told to
> "pour" a batter into a pan to be baked. But I can't pour anything. I've
> followed the recipe to the letter, and if I'm going to do anything, I must
> drop and smear something that, according to the recipe, should be runny
> enough to flow to the edges of the pan on its own.
>
> Then I see recipes for, say, biscuits, that calls for 1 1/2 to 2 cups of
> buttermilk. Or a pizza dough recipe that calls for 1 to 1 1/2 cups of
> water.
>
> Well, the thing about that is, if you add only the one cup, you wont know
> it's not enough until you see it's not sticking together at all. Then
> adding the remaining half cup to that just makes a complete mess. Or add
> the 1 1/2 cups and it turns out to be too much, then you've got to add
> more flour. Then you've got dough that's overworked because it's been
> meddled with too much, and "they say" that overworked dough is going to
> turn out too tough.
>
> So why aren't baking recipes more precise? I know about humidity factors,
> but sucking up a few extra molecules of water from the atmosphere seems
> far less destructive than knowing exactly how much liquid should go into a
> bread or pizza dough recipe to get you started.


Flour varies enormously depending on the type of wheat, where it was grown
and even when it was harvested. Winter wheat has less protein than spring
wheat and behaves differently which is why it is used for cakes etc. It
does not always take the same amount of liquid to moisten the flour for a
particular recipe. Sometimes a batch of bread will require 8 cups of flour,
sometimes 10. You have to know what the proper consistency is and
anticipate it early. If for example you are making a bread and you start to
mix the ingredients and it is too thick, you add more liquid before you
begin kneading. Like with the pancakes, if after a few stirs it is not
loose enough you add more milk right away so as not to over mix.

It's a feel thing.

Paul

Reading from news:rec.food.cooking,
Bobo Bonobo+AK4- > posted:

> I use pancake mix (with no hydrogenated fats), and I add a bit less milk
> (the instructions say water), and add more if needed.

Probably the pancake mix contains powdered milk.

Damaeus

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:22:19 +1200, Miche wrote:

> In article >,
> Damaeus > wrote:
>
>>
>> So why aren't baking recipes more precise? I know about humidity factors,
>> but sucking up a few extra molecules of water from the atmosphere seems
>> far less destructive than knowing exactly how much liquid should go into a
>> bread or pizza dough recipe to get you started.
>
> Because moisture in the air isn't the only factor that makes a
> difference. Flour, air temperature and altitude also count.
>
> Miche

i first read that as 'Flour, air temperature and attitude.' though some
contend it's the genes of the baker.

your pal,
blake

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:25:41 -0500 in rec.food.cooking, Damaeus
> wrote,
>Then I see recipes for, say, biscuits, that calls for 1 1/2 to 2 cups of
>buttermilk. Or a pizza dough recipe that calls for 1 to 1 1/2 cups of
>water.
>
>Well, the thing about that is, if you add only the one cup, you wont know
>it's not enough until you see it's not sticking together at all. Then
>adding the remaining half cup to that just makes a complete mess.

When I see a recipe like that it says to me that it is one of those that
depends a lot on the consistency of the flour you have, the amount of
moisture it can absorb, and the amount of humidity it already has in it.
That can vary a lot, and there is no way a recipe can predict it. You
have to start with the one cup of liquid, mix it up, and then slowly add
up to half a cup while mixing until the dough reaches the right
consistency -- and stop there! If you always get the same kind of
flour, then maybe you can use the measurement you have determined for
yourself next time.