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The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
trying.

Yesterday Bobby from the local hardware and feed store delivered
enough 12-foot 2 x 12's to make 35 12 x 4-foot raised beds. (We
already had one made as a test of the design) It was cold and raining
like a sumbitch, but a friend and Bobby and I unloaded his trailer. A
12-foot 2 x 12 is a hefty hunk o' wood. Bobby bore up alright, but
the other two of us just about proved our mortality. For the record,
that totaled 83 boards plus a few 2 x 4's for corner braces. Did I
mention it was raining? And cold?

This afternoon three of us commenced sawing and screwing the boards
together. We got all the lumber cut to size and screwed the 2 x 4
braces into the 4-foot sections. A couple other volunteers arrived
just in time to help assemble the boxes. I'd wanted to get all 35 of
them done today, but we flagged after a dozen. It takes four people
to carry one.

Many parts of my aging body ache tonight.

Once the boxes are all assembled, we're in business. Local government
folks hauled three dump truck loads of salvaged potting soil and two
cubic yards of composted manure to the garden and tilled it in. We
even had a county commissioner driving a tractor with a specially
modified box blade on back to pile up the amended soil into wide rows
suitable for the dimensions of the raised beds.

Cow Hill is still under a county-wide burn ban because of the
persistent drought. We got about 5 inches of rain this week, but the
ban is still in effect. We're meeting with the city water guys next
week to install a meter and a line for irrigation purposes. I've got
a bunch of literature on drip irrigation an ag science professor
handed to me last week. Probably should read it.

Some ag research guys with the county extension service (it's called
"AgriLife Extension" these days, just to make your spell check mad)
have tilled a couple of acres next to the community garden site for
larger crop production. They're going to plant sweet corn, black
eyes, edamame, and stuff which we will be able to give away for free.

Tonight one of my box-making compadres and his lady friend and I drove
over to Big Smith's Barbecue just south of Sulphur Springs for dinner.
The place is important, one of the best in Texas. They had ribs. I
had sliced brisket and hot sausage. We all had onion rings.

In other news, D is out of town. She had a conference in San
Francisco this week and will spend a few days with a dear friend up in
Sonoma County before returning to my loving arms. She called this
morning to tell me a little about her stay, including her $100 meal at
a hoity toity restaurant the other night and the oranges on the orange
tree in he friend's yard.

Did I mention it's cold and wet here? Did I mention that major
portions of my body hurt?

And finally, sad news: Matt Martinez, Jr. died yesterday. He was a
major presence in the Texas restaurant scene. His place in Dallas,
Matt's Rancho Martinez, is pretty much ground zero round these parts
when it comes to quality Tex-Mex food. His roasted jalapeno
vinaigrette, for example, is mysteriously delicious.

Over the years he published several funny and informative cookbooks,
cooked along side notables like Julia Child, and pretty much answered
the question of whether there was really good Tex-Mex cooking. A lot
of heavy, fatty, salty junk is offered at a lot of places under the
name of Tex-Mex. Matt Martinez's food is good.

He was 64. The cause of death was brain cancer.
--

modom
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"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in message
...
> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
> trying.

snip trials and tribs. of gardeners
> modom


I'm envious. You have the chance to do things right and 'from the ground
up,' so to speak. I had something weird happen with my soaker irrigation
last year -- never happened before. The above-ground rooting for the sweet
corn nailed the soaker hose to the ground and grew right through the hose in
about a dozen places. I had to cut the roots with pruning shears because
they were about 1/8 inch thick and went deep into the ground. I was using
the recycled rubber soaker hoses. Tell me more about the drip irrigation
you are putting in.
Janet


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"modom (palindrome guy)" wrote:
>
> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
> trying.
>
> Yesterday Bobby from the local hardware and feed store delivered
> enough 12-foot 2 x 12's to make 35 12 x 4-foot raised beds.



I hope all that lumber is pressure treated, and the newer safer treated
lumber will begin to rot in like ten years, sooner if your area is generally
wet. I think for a community garden a much better system would be to have
like 10' X 10' plots staked out directly on the ground... in so many ways it
will be infinitely simpler to maintain. For the cost of all that lumber a
tremendous quantity of topsoil could have been hauled in, and each fall and
spring so much easier to amend and till.

So what is the purpose of this venture, what crops are planned?



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On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 08:13:32 -0600, Christine Dabney
> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 23:26:40 -0500, "modom (palindrome guy)"
> wrote:
>
>>In other news, D is out of town. She had a conference in San
>>Francisco this week and will spend a few days with a dear friend up in
>>Sonoma County before returning to my loving arms. She called this
>>morning to tell me a little about her stay, including her $100 meal at
>>a hoity toity restaurant the other night and the oranges on the orange
>>tree in he friend's yard.

>
>What restaurant, do you know?
>
>Christine


She told me, but I don't remember. I'll let you know later.
--

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On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 06:53:10 -0600, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>
>"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in message
.. .
>> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
>> trying.

>snip trials and tribs. of gardeners


>I'm envious. You have the chance to do things right and 'from the ground
>up,' so to speak. I had something weird happen with my soaker irrigation
>last year -- never happened before. The above-ground rooting for the sweet
>corn nailed the soaker hose to the ground and grew right through the hose in
>about a dozen places. I had to cut the roots with pruning shears because
>they were about 1/8 inch thick and went deep into the ground. I was using
>the recycled rubber soaker hoses. Tell me more about the drip irrigation
>you are putting in.
>Janet
>

I'm not the one who's expert in this stuff, but what the Ag Science
professor gave me came from these two sites:

http://www.irrigationdirect.com/
http://www.dripdepot.com/

What he pointed me to was this:
http://www.dripdepot.com/drip-irrigation-tubing.html

And this:
http://www.irrigationdirect.com/prod...D-DET250-6-100

One of the people working on this project installed a drip irrigation
system at a public garden in a nearby town, and we have a certified
master gardener on board. Their expertise is miles beyond mine in
these matters, so I plan to follow their instructions.
--

modom


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On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:59:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> wrote:

>"modom (palindrome guy)" wrote:
>>
>> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
>> trying.
>>
>> Yesterday Bobby from the local hardware and feed store delivered
>> enough 12-foot 2 x 12's to make 35 12 x 4-foot raised beds.

>
>
>I hope all that lumber is pressure treated, and the newer safer treated
>lumber will begin to rot in like ten years, sooner if your area is generally
>wet. I think for a community garden a much better system would be to have
>like 10' X 10' plots staked out directly on the ground... in so many ways it
>will be infinitely simpler to maintain. For the cost of all that lumber a
>tremendous quantity of topsoil could have been hauled in, and each fall and
>spring so much easier to amend and till.
>

We know what we're doing. Besides a professor of ag science and the
director of the county extension service, members of our group include
retired farmers, a certified master gardener, and an expert in drip
irrigation systems.

>So what is the purpose of this venture, what crops are planned?
>

Mission: Our mission is to support community gardening by building
community participation, civic pride, and awareness of benefits to the
environment and individual health. We will provide opportunities to
learn about food production, generate produce for individual
participants and the impoverished, and demonstrate sustainable land
stewardship.

Individual members of the community will lease plots and grow what
they want in them with the advice of the master gardener and the
county extension service.

An established local group called Cereal Crops Research, Inc. will
plant and maintain larger plots of corn, beans, peas, edamame, etc.

A workshop on composting and selecting tomato varieties appropriate to
our soil and climate is scheduled in the coming weeks. Discussion is
underway regarding cooking and preserving classes in the large kitchen
of a nearby church. Other events may happen as the project develops.
--

modom
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"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 06:53:10 -0600, "Janet Bostwick"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
>>> trying.

>>snip trials and tribs. of gardeners

>
>>I'm envious. You have the chance to do things right and 'from the ground
>>up,' so to speak. I had something weird happen with my soaker irrigation
>>last year -- never happened before. The above-ground rooting for the
>>sweet
>>corn nailed the soaker hose to the ground and grew right through the hose
>>in
>>about a dozen places. I had to cut the roots with pruning shears because
>>they were about 1/8 inch thick and went deep into the ground. I was using
>>the recycled rubber soaker hoses. Tell me more about the drip irrigation
>>you are putting in.
>>Janet
>>

> I'm not the one who's expert in this stuff, but what the Ag Science
> professor gave me came from these two sites:
>
> http://www.irrigationdirect.com/
> http://www.dripdepot.com/
>
> What he pointed me to was this:
> http://www.dripdepot.com/drip-irrigation-tubing.html
>
> And this:
> http://www.irrigationdirect.com/prod...D-DET250-6-100
>
> One of the people working on this project installed a drip irrigation
> system at a public garden in a nearby town, and we have a certified
> master gardener on board. Their expertise is miles beyond mine in
> these matters, so I plan to follow their instructions.
> --
>
> modom

I'm familiar with the type of product. Is it going to be used as a
permanent installation or picked up every year so that you can cultivate?
Janet


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"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:59:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
>>"modom (palindrome guy)" wrote:
>>>
>>> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
>>> trying.
>>>
>>> Yesterday Bobby from the local hardware and feed store delivered
>>> enough 12-foot 2 x 12's to make 35 12 x 4-foot raised beds.

>>
>>
>>I hope all that lumber is pressure treated, and the newer safer treated
>>lumber will begin to rot in like ten years, sooner if your area is
>>generally
>>wet. I think for a community garden a much better system would be to have
>>like 10' X 10' plots staked out directly on the ground... in so many ways
>>it
>>will be infinitely simpler to maintain. For the cost of all that lumber a
>>tremendous quantity of topsoil could have been hauled in, and each fall
>>and
>>spring so much easier to amend and till.
>>

> We know what we're doing. Besides a professor of ag science and the
> director of the county extension service, members of our group include
> retired farmers, a certified master gardener, and an expert in drip
> irrigation systems.
>
>>So what is the purpose of this venture, what crops are planned?
>>

> Mission: Our mission is to support community gardening by building
> community participation, civic pride, and awareness of benefits to the
> environment and individual health. We will provide opportunities to
> learn about food production, generate produce for individual
> participants and the impoverished, and demonstrate sustainable land
> stewardship.
>
> Individual members of the community will lease plots and grow what
> they want in them with the advice of the master gardener and the
> county extension service.
>
> An established local group called Cereal Crops Research, Inc. will
> plant and maintain larger plots of corn, beans, peas, edamame, etc.
>
> A workshop on composting and selecting tomato varieties appropriate to
> our soil and climate is scheduled in the coming weeks. Discussion is
> underway regarding cooking and preserving classes in the large kitchen
> of a nearby church. Other events may happen as the project develops.
> --
>
> modom

My daughter and her husband (both have doctorates in several tree, biology,
sustainable farming areas as well as time spent in Africa and Brazil
teaching ) are venturing into neighborhood gardening in a big way this year.
Not near as big as you, but I don't think we're talking about the same
amount of land being available. They just had 18 yards of mushroom compost
delivered. Their challenge is varmits.
Janet


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modom (palindrome guy) wrote:

>
>> "modom (palindrome guy)" wrote:
>>> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
>>> trying.

>>

> Mission: Our mission is to support community gardening by building
> community participation, civic pride, and awareness of benefits to the
> environment and individual health. We will provide opportunities to
> learn about food production, generate produce for individual
> participants and the impoverished, and demonstrate sustainable land
> stewardship.
>
> Individual members of the community will lease plots and grow what
> they want in them with the advice of the master gardener and the
> county extension service.
>
> An established local group called Cereal Crops Research, Inc. will
> plant and maintain larger plots of corn, beans, peas, edamame, etc.
>
> A workshop on composting and selecting tomato varieties appropriate to
> our soil and climate is scheduled in the coming weeks. Discussion is
> underway regarding cooking and preserving classes in the large kitchen
> of a nearby church. Other events may happen as the project develops.
> --



That sounds like a very worthwhile project. I wish you success.
One caveat: It might be worth mentioning to new gardeners that it is
not worth planting vegetables that you will not eat. (Strange things are
done in the interest of "companion planting".)

gloria p
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"brooklyn1" wrote

>> Yesterday Bobby from the local hardware and feed store delivered
>> enough 12-foot 2 x 12's to make 35 12 x 4-foot raised beds.


> I hope all that lumber is pressure treated, and the newer safer treated
> lumber will begin to rot in like ten years, sooner if your area is
> generally


Nope, you want it untreated for a garden. The chemicals in even today's PT
wood are unsafe anyplace near food crops.





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"modom (palindrome guy)" wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:59:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
> >"modom (palindrome guy)" wrote:
> >>
> >> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
> >> trying.
> >>
> >> Yesterday Bobby from the local hardware and feed store delivered
> >> enough 12-foot 2 x 12's to make 35 12 x 4-foot raised beds.

> >
> >
> >I hope all that lumber is pressure treated, and the newer safer treated
> >lumber will begin to rot in like ten years, sooner if your area is generally
> >wet. I think for a community garden a much better system would be to have
> >like 10' X 10' plots staked out directly on the ground... in so many ways it
> >will be infinitely simpler to maintain. For the cost of all that lumber a
> >tremendous quantity of topsoil could have been hauled in, and each fall and
> >spring so much easier to amend and till.
> >

> We know what we're doing. Besides a professor of ag science and the
> director of the county extension service, members of our group include
> retired farmers, a certified master gardener, and an expert in drip
> irrigation systems.
>
> >So what is the purpose of this venture, what crops are planned?
> >

> Mission: Our mission is to support community gardening by building
> community participation, civic pride, and awareness of benefits to the
> environment and individual health. We will provide opportunities to
> learn about food production, generate produce for individual
> participants and the impoverished, and demonstrate sustainable land
> stewardship.
>
> Individual members of the community will lease plots and grow what
> they want in them with the advice of the master gardener and the
> county extension service.
>
> An established local group called Cereal Crops Research, Inc. will
> plant and maintain larger plots of corn, beans, peas, edamame, etc.
>
> A workshop on composting and selecting tomato varieties appropriate to
> our soil and climate is scheduled in the coming weeks. Discussion is
> underway regarding cooking and preserving classes in the large kitchen
> of a nearby church. Other events may happen as the project develops.
> --
>
> modom


I did community garden stuff in a different part of the country years
ago, and I agree with the argument against raised beds. All the
community gardens I've ever been involved in were just stake and string
delineated plots with walking paths between the rows and watering
spigots every 50' or so. Raised beds may be a bit more photogenic, but
they tend to be a hassle unless they're really tiny plots. Typical plots
I've seen were 10x25, 25x25, and 50x50.
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"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:59:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
>>"modom (palindrome guy)" wrote:
>>>
>>> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
>>> trying.
>>>
>>> Yesterday Bobby from the local hardware and feed store delivered
>>> enough 12-foot 2 x 12's to make 35 12 x 4-foot raised beds.

>>
>>
>>I hope all that lumber is pressure treated, and the newer safer treated
>>lumber will begin to rot in like ten years, sooner if your area is
>>generally
>>wet. I think for a community garden a much better system would be to have
>>like 10' X 10' plots staked out directly on the ground... in so many ways
>>it
>>will be infinitely simpler to maintain. For the cost of all that lumber a
>>tremendous quantity of topsoil could have been hauled in, and each fall
>>and
>>spring so much easier to amend and till.
>>

> We know what we're doing. Besides a professor of ag science and the
> director of the county extension service, members of our group include
> retired farmers, a certified master gardener, and an expert in drip
> irrigation systems.
>
>>So what is the purpose of this venture, what crops are planned?
>>

> Mission: Our mission is to support community gardening by building
> community participation, civic pride, and awareness of benefits to the
> environment and individual health. We will provide opportunities to
> learn about food production, generate produce for individual
> participants and the impoverished, and demonstrate sustainable land
> stewardship.
>
> Individual members of the community will lease plots and grow what
> they want in them with the advice of the master gardener and the
> county extension service.
>
> An established local group called Cereal Crops Research, Inc. will
> plant and maintain larger plots of corn, beans, peas, edamame, etc.
>
> A workshop on composting and selecting tomato varieties appropriate to
> our soil and climate is scheduled in the coming weeks. Discussion is
> underway regarding cooking and preserving classes in the large kitchen
> of a nearby church. Other events may happen as the project develops.
> --
>
> modom


This sounds like a huge undertaking. What will be the rent for each of your
48 sq ft plots? How much land is involved in total, and who owns it or is
it donated? Are there plans to add more raised beds? Good luck.


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On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:40:52 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> wrote:

>
>"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:59:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> We know what we're doing. Besides a professor of ag science and the
>> director of the county extension service, members of our group include
>> retired farmers, a certified master gardener, and an expert in drip
>> irrigation systems.
>>
>>>So what is the purpose of this venture, what crops are planned?
>>>

>> Mission: Our mission is to support community gardening by building
>> community participation, civic pride, and awareness of benefits to the
>> environment and individual health. We will provide opportunities to
>> learn about food production, generate produce for individual
>> participants and the impoverished, and demonstrate sustainable land
>> stewardship.
>>
>> Individual members of the community will lease plots and grow what
>> they want in them with the advice of the master gardener and the
>> county extension service.
>>
>> An established local group called Cereal Crops Research, Inc. will
>> plant and maintain larger plots of corn, beans, peas, edamame, etc.
>>
>> A workshop on composting and selecting tomato varieties appropriate to
>> our soil and climate is scheduled in the coming weeks. Discussion is
>> underway regarding cooking and preserving classes in the large kitchen
>> of a nearby church. Other events may happen as the project develops.

>
>This sounds like a huge undertaking. What will be the rent for each of your
>48 sq ft plots? How much land is involved in total, and who owns it or is
>it donated? Are there plans to add more raised beds? Good luck.
>


We've leased the land from a church for a buck a year. Total land is
ca. 7 acres, but not all that is slated for cultivation this year. The
county commissioner involved says he wants to bulldoze a pond on part
of the lease next year so we can wean ourselves from city water for
irrigation.

Incidentally, that lease was somewhat problematic. We had to get a
local lawyer to donate some time to us to make the lease specific to
the project. We're using government equipment for some of the heavy
work and don't want any complaints about improving church property
with it. Separation of church and state, you know.

The guys who tilled the land and incorporated the soil amendments
actually prepared about 1/3 more soil than we'll need this year. (BTW,
man is that good dirt now!) So we have room to expand going forward.

Cost of a plot is $30 a year. We have a mild enough climate that you
can grow greens, lettuce, arugula, cilantro and some other herbs even
in winter so you can raise edibles most of the year.

Dallas has a very successful community garden association that has
been part of our inspiration. Here's their Web site:
http://www.gardendallas.org/
--

modom
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On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 08:13:32 -0600, Christine Dabney
> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 23:26:40 -0500, "modom (palindrome guy)"
> wrote:
>
>>In other news, D is out of town. She had a conference in San
>>Francisco this week and will spend a few days with a dear friend up in
>>Sonoma County before returning to my loving arms. She called this
>>morning to tell me a little about her stay, including her $100 meal at
>>a hoity toity restaurant the other night and the oranges on the orange
>>tree in he friend's yard.

>
>What restaurant, do you know?
>
>Christine


It was Gary Danko. D just emailed me the answer to your question.
Menu is he http://www.garydanko.com/flash/menu_print.html
--

modom
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"Pete C." > wrote in message
ster.com...
>
> "modom (palindrome guy)" wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:59:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >"modom (palindrome guy)" wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
>> >> trying.
>> >>
>> >> Yesterday Bobby from the local hardware and feed store delivered
>> >> enough 12-foot 2 x 12's to make 35 12 x 4-foot raised beds.
>> >
>> >
>> >I hope all that lumber is pressure treated, and the newer safer treated
>> >lumber will begin to rot in like ten years, sooner if your area is
>> >generally
>> >wet. I think for a community garden a much better system would be to
>> >have
>> >like 10' X 10' plots staked out directly on the ground... in so many
>> >ways it
>> >will be infinitely simpler to maintain. For the cost of all that lumber
>> >a
>> >tremendous quantity of topsoil could have been hauled in, and each fall
>> >and
>> >spring so much easier to amend and till.
>> >

>> We know what we're doing. Besides a professor of ag science and the
>> director of the county extension service, members of our group include
>> retired farmers, a certified master gardener, and an expert in drip
>> irrigation systems.
>>
>> >So what is the purpose of this venture, what crops are planned?
>> >

>> Mission: Our mission is to support community gardening by building
>> community participation, civic pride, and awareness of benefits to the
>> environment and individual health. We will provide opportunities to
>> learn about food production, generate produce for individual
>> participants and the impoverished, and demonstrate sustainable land
>> stewardship.
>>
>> Individual members of the community will lease plots and grow what
>> they want in them with the advice of the master gardener and the
>> county extension service.
>>
>> An established local group called Cereal Crops Research, Inc. will
>> plant and maintain larger plots of corn, beans, peas, edamame, etc.
>>
>> A workshop on composting and selecting tomato varieties appropriate to
>> our soil and climate is scheduled in the coming weeks. Discussion is
>> underway regarding cooking and preserving classes in the large kitchen
>> of a nearby church. Other events may happen as the project develops.
>> --
>>
>> modom

>
> I did community garden stuff in a different part of the country years
> ago, and I agree with the argument against raised beds. All the
> community gardens I've ever been involved in were just stake and string
> delineated plots with walking paths between the rows and watering
> spigots every 50' or so. Raised beds may be a bit more photogenic, but
> they tend to be a hassle unless they're really tiny plots. Typical plots
> I've seen were 10x25, 25x25, and 50x50.


I've been heavily involved in community gardening too, including several
years at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. They all stay far away from raised beds,
they're too costly to build and maintain, plus they don't produce nearly as
well as planting beds directly on the ground... the typical newbie gardeners
quickly become disenchanted even under the best of conditions, add any level
of difficulty, extra labor, and poor results and it's adios.

Unless the participants are each in their own right accomplished gardeners
those raised beds will very soon become
abandoned heaps of rot. Raised beds are far more a challenge than beds
directly on the ground.




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brooklyn1 wrote:

> I've been heavily involved in community gardening too, including several
> years at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. They all stay far away from raised beds,
> they're too costly to build and maintain, plus they don't produce nearly as
> well as planting beds directly on the ground... the typical newbie gardeners
> quickly become disenchanted even under the best of conditions, add any level
> of difficulty, extra labor, and poor results and it's adios.
>
> Unless the participants are each in their own right accomplished gardeners
> those raised beds will very soon become
> abandoned heaps of rot. Raised beds are far more a challenge than beds
> directly on the ground.



I have never understood the reason for raised beds, other than
aesthetics. One would expect that since water flows to the lowest level,
that it would need more watering.

My father maintained a vegetable garden for most of my life, and they
were never raised and lots of my friends and neighbours have gardens,
none of which are raised. It just seems like a whole lot of work for
nothing, other than looking good. I suppose that if you had really
crappy soil like heavy clay, sand and rock and had to put something down
that plants would grow in.


I have wonderful soil for gardening. It is nice, rich, sandy loam. The
only down side of it is that the water drains out of it. We get lots of
rain in the spring and fall but August can get a little dry.
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On Mar 15, 4:16 pm, Dave Smith > wrote:

>
> I have never understood the reason for raised beds, other than
> aesthetics.


When I lived in Wicker Park, Chicago - dog nose what the history of
that dirt might have been. Some neighbors raised nice flowers. The
one daughter of hippies who tried veg did it in a raised bed - gotta
know what your soil is.

b
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Dave Smith wrote:

> I have never understood the reason for raised beds, other than
> aesthetics. One would expect that since water flows to the lowest level,
> that it would need more watering.


For us, our soil is clay hard. I have no desire to dig and cultivate
better dirt. Raise the bed and bring in the "good" soil or do container
growing is my option here. It has nothing to do with aesthetics.

--Lin
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On Mar 15, 11:29 am, "modom (palindrome guy)" >
wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 06:53:10 -0600, "Janet Bostwick"
>
>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
> >> trying.

> >snip trials and tribs. of gardeners
> >I'm envious. You have the chance to do things right and 'from the ground
> >up,' so to speak. I had something weird happen with my soaker irrigation
> >last year -- never happened before. The above-ground rooting for the sweet
> >corn nailed the soaker hose to the ground and grew right through the hose in
> >about a dozen places. I had to cut the roots with pruning shears because
> >they were about 1/8 inch thick and went deep into the ground. I was using
> >the recycled rubber soaker hoses. Tell me more about the drip irrigation
> >you are putting in.
> >Janet

>
> I'm not the one who's expert in this stuff, but what the Ag Science
> professor gave me came from these two sites:
>
> http://www.irrigationdirect.com/http...dripdepot.com/
>
> What he pointed me to was this:http://www.dripdepot.com/drip-irrigation-tubing.html
>
> And this:http://www.irrigationdirect.com/prod...D-DET250-6-100
>
> One of the people working on this project installed a drip irrigation
> system at a public garden in a nearby town, and we have a certified
> master gardener on board. Their expertise is miles beyond mine in
> these matters, so I plan to follow their instructions.
> --
>
> modom


Very cool. I looked into doing this here, but I'm not nearly
organized enough to be the coordinator. Not to disstract from you -
watch for the MasterGardener thread, soon to open near you.

B
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brooklyn1 wrote:

>
> Unless the participants are each in their own right accomplished gardeners
> those raised beds will very soon become
> abandoned heaps of rot. Raised beds are far more a challenge than beds
> directly on the ground.
>
>


Why? It seems like a very small difference overall.

gloria p


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Christine Dabney wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 14:49:50 -0700, Lin >
> wrote:
>
> >Dave Smith wrote:
> >
> >> I have never understood the reason for raised beds, other than
> >> aesthetics. One would expect that since water flows to the lowest level,
> >> that it would need more watering.

> >
> >For us, our soil is clay hard. I have no desire to dig and cultivate
> >better dirt. Raise the bed and bring in the "good" soil or do container
> >growing is my option here. It has nothing to do with aesthetics.
> >
> >--Lin

>
> For someone like me, it is much, much more than aesthetics. I cannot
> physically bend down to garden in a regular garden: I have bad hips
> and very bad knees. I NEED a raised bed if I do have a garden at all.
> Not only that, from all I have read about them, you can improve the
> soil a great deal, as Lin has suggested.


If bending is the issue, then neither ground level nor slightly raised
bed is really adequate. A better option would be a hydroponic setup
which can easily be built to put the plants at a comfortable working
height.
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Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> brooklyn1 wrote:
> >
> > I've been heavily involved in community gardening too, including several
> > years at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. They all stay far away from raised beds,
> > they're too costly to build and maintain, plus they don't produce nearly as
> > well as planting beds directly on the ground... the typical newbie gardeners
> > quickly become disenchanted even under the best of conditions, add any level
> > of difficulty, extra labor, and poor results and it's adios.

>
> Not for this guy. Look at his method for accessing his garden.
> It's about 20% of the way down the page.
>
> http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/projects.htm
>
> To save on space that would otherwise be consumed by footpaths
> and avoid compacting the soil, he built a sort of gantry on tracks
> so he could access his garden from above.


That's certainly creative.
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Mark Thorson wrote:

> Not for this guy. Look at his method for accessing his garden.
> It's about 20% of the way down the page.
>
> http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/projects.htm
>
> To save on space that would otherwise be consumed by footpaths
> and avoid compacting the soil, he built a sort of gantry on tracks
> so he could access his garden from above.


Geek Extraordinare! I wish he'd been *my* father! What fun toys he has
in his head...
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brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> I've been heavily involved in community gardening too, including several
> years at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. They all stay far away from raised beds,
> they're too costly to build and maintain, plus they don't produce nearly as
> well as planting beds directly on the ground... the typical newbie gardeners
> quickly become disenchanted even under the best of conditions, add any level
> of difficulty, extra labor, and poor results and it's adios.


Not for this guy. Look at his method for accessing his garden.
It's about 20% of the way down the page.

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/projects.htm

To save on space that would otherwise be consumed by footpaths
and avoid compacting the soil, he built a sort of gantry on tracks
so he could access his garden from above.
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"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
m...
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>> I've been heavily involved in community gardening too, including several
>> years at Brooklyn Botanic Garden. They all stay far away from raised
>> beds, they're too costly to build and maintain, plus they don't produce
>> nearly as well as planting beds directly on the ground... the typical
>> newbie gardeners quickly become disenchanted even under the best of
>> conditions, add any level of difficulty, extra labor, and poor results
>> and it's adios.
>>
>> Unless the participants are each in their own right accomplished
>> gardeners those raised beds will very soon become
>> abandoned heaps of rot. Raised beds are far more a challenge than beds
>> directly on the ground.

>
>
> I have never understood the reason for raised beds, other than aesthetics.


Raised beds can be somewhat helpful for those with handicaps that prevent
bending but I think the kneeling/sitting combo apparatuses found at plant
nurseries and elsewhere work better... I have a collection of
kneeling/sitting gizmos, they come in extremely handy when I'm gardening
sloping/mucky land along my pond and creeks and culverts. The only real
reason for raised beds is if one has no choice but to garden on wetlands...
or if one chooses to set their garden on wetlands so they never have to
water... but wetland gardening is very specialized and requires a very high
degree of horticultural experience as to what to grow and when, and also
includes knowing a great deal about the fauna the flora attrracts and how
they interact. I have many wetland areas on my property that I garden (with
mostly native ornamentals), including about half my vegetable garden so I
don't need to water... but I still have found ways to avoid having raised
beds because they become a real pain... just when you have the soil how you
want it and plants are established the structure begins to collapse, plus no
matter how much you spend on materials it never looks natural. Building a
raised bed vegetable garden for aesthetic value is silly, but many do.
People garden on patios/rooftops even, but container gardening is not raised
beds. Choosing raised bed plots to allocate for a community garden is
dumber than rocks... and installing drip irrigation for community gardening,
especially so newbies can attempt veggies is way beyond moronic, it's
certifiably insane. As soon as I learned that the church is involved I knew
that all those involved with supplying materials, machinery, and labor were
in it strictly for the tax benefit... there are no master gardeners (whaever
the F that is), only masturbators. This community garden is a scam.




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In article >,
"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote:

> The community garden plugs along. We'll plant this spring or I'll die
> trying.
>

Description of hard labor snipped
> Did I mention it's cold and wet here? Did I mention that major
> portions of my body hurt?


It will be worth it, once you take enough Aleve to feel better.
>
> And finally, sad news: Matt Martinez, Jr. died yesterday. He was a
> major presence in the Texas restaurant scene. His place in Dallas,
> Matt's Rancho Martinez, is pretty much ground zero round these parts
> when it comes to quality Tex-Mex food. His roasted jalapeno
> vinaigrette, for example, is mysteriously delicious.
>
> Over the years he published several funny and informative cookbooks,
> cooked along side notables like Julia Child, and pretty much answered
> the question of whether there was really good Tex-Mex cooking. A lot
> of heavy, fatty, salty junk is offered at a lot of places under the
> name of Tex-Mex. Matt Martinez's food is good.
>
> He was 64. The cause of death was brain cancer.


Sad news from the old hood. I'll have to read the obit on the Dallas
Morning Rag website. We may have gone to his restaurant a couple of
times.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me
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Mark Thorson > wrote in :


>
> Not for this guy. Look at his method for accessing his garden.
> It's about 20% of the way down the page.
>
> http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/projects.htm
>
> To save on space that would otherwise be consumed by footpaths
> and avoid compacting the soil, he built a sort of gantry on tracks
> so he could access his garden from above.
>



Thanks Mark!! NOT!!

I've just spent the better part of 90mins looking through that guys
website!! Jeeeez, he musn't sleep much!! And that plasma rocket
engine.....!!!


But anyways........ food related,


http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/doughnuts.html



--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia

Killfile all Google Groups posters.........

http://improve-usenet.org/

http://improve-usenet.org/filters_bg.html
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"Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 00:41:31 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
>>Raised beds can be somewhat helpful for those with handicaps that prevent
>>bending but I think the kneeling/sitting combo apparatuses found at plant
>>nurseries and elsewhere work better..

>
> Not for someone like me. As I mentioned, I have bad knees. If I am
> in a kneeling position, it is almost impossible for me to get up,
> without dislocating one. And believe me, that is incredibly painful,
> as well as making it difficult to walk for a week or more after that
> happens. I do everything I can to avoid it...
>
> Same with sitting, if the seat is too low...plus I am not supposed to
> sit on a low seat anyway, with my hip replacements. And if the seat
> is too low, my right knee can't take the pressure of getting up from
> it, without dislocating.
>
>

I understand. What you're saying is you're not capable of a whole lot of
gardening. Being handicapped as you describe you'd do better with container
gardening. I had a great uncle, long gone, who was handicapped but loved to
garden, he did miniature gardening, entire landscapes, trees, bushes, moss,
ponds, streams of bits of mirror, etc. in tiny bottles, bottle caps,
toothpaste caps, and even smaller, most required a magnifying glass to see
the detail. They ran a two page article in the Sunday NY Mirror magazine
section all about him... his entire garden of over a hundred plants occupied
his tiny apartment kitchen window.. he liked to plant seeds from fruit he'd
eat; apple. pear, citrus... most of his tiny gardens didn't last very long
but he always had new ones.


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"Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 01:42:44 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>I understand. What you're saying is you're not capable of a whole lot of
>>gardening. Being handicapped as you describe you'd do better with
>>container
>>gardening. I had a great uncle, long gone, who was handicapped but loved
>>to
>>garden, he did miniature gardening, entire landscapes, trees, bushes,
>>moss,
>>ponds, streams of bits of mirror, etc. in tiny bottles, bottle caps,
>>toothpaste caps, and even smaller, most required a magnifying glass to see
>>the detail. They ran a two page article in the Sunday NY Mirror magazine
>>section all about him... his entire garden of over a hundred plants
>>occupied
>>his tiny apartment kitchen window.. he liked to plant seeds from fruit
>>he'd
>>eat; apple. pear, citrus... most of his tiny gardens didn't last very long
>>but he always had new ones.
>>

>
> I have seen some portable "raised" beds, and some that are designed
> for people such as me. I would love to be able to do more than
> container gardening, if I could.



Container gardening is an excellent method, so long as you don't expect huge
crops to supply many others, but you'd certainly produce more than two or
three adults can possibly consume without much effort

> I keep an eye out on the net for solutions...like maybe the whiskey
> barrel type of thing. Or big enough planters.


You'd do better with numerous smaller containers, variously sized clay pots
work very well.


I would love to have good
> tomatoes, as well as a source of squash and squash blossoms....


I don't see any reason why you can't... the trick is to study seed catalogs
carefully so that you choose plants with growing habits that don't require a
lot of sprawling space... and don't try to grow everything in a seed
catalog. And some crops cost less to buy at markets... things like celery
and radishes produce for a short time only and they don't freeze well.





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"Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 01:42:44 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>I understand. What you're saying is you're not capable of a whole lot of
>>gardening. Being handicapped as you describe you'd do better with
>>container
>>gardening. I had a great uncle, long gone, who was handicapped but loved
>>to
>>garden, he did miniature gardening, entire landscapes, trees, bushes,
>>moss,
>>ponds, streams of bits of mirror, etc. in tiny bottles, bottle caps,
>>toothpaste caps, and even smaller, most required a magnifying glass to see
>>the detail. They ran a two page article in the Sunday NY Mirror magazine
>>section all about him... his entire garden of over a hundred plants
>>occupied
>>his tiny apartment kitchen window.. he liked to plant seeds from fruit
>>he'd
>>eat; apple. pear, citrus... most of his tiny gardens didn't last very long
>>but he always had new ones.
>>

>
> I have seen some portable "raised" beds, and some that are designed
> for people such as me. I would love to be able to do more than
> container gardening, if I could.
>
> I keep an eye out on the net for solutions...like maybe the whiskey
> barrel type of thing. Or big enough planters.
>
> Just wondering how well squashes, and regular (not small or cherry
> tomatoes) grow in that sort of container. I would love to have good
> tomatoes, as well as a source of squash and squash blossoms....
>
> I hope vegetable gardening really takes off bigtime in this day and
> age and economy. Maybe folks will finally discover how good some
> vegetables taste when they are ripe and freshly harvested.
>
> Christine
> --

Years ago, (40) before large pots were generally available, I'd buy really
large waste paper baskets for gardening on my deck (drill holes in bottom
for drainage). You can grow full size tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, green
onions, herbs, eggplant, potatoes, strawberries, squash (summer or
winter) -- I can't think of all the stuff that I have grown in containers
over the years. Whiskey barrels are nice, but get really heavy and take a
lot of soil to fill. They do become a semi-permanent installation. If you
choose pots, try to get pots that have a light-colored exterior to reflect
the heat of the sun so that plant roots don't become overheated. I like
pots that I or my husband can move around. That way I can shift something
to get more sun if needed. I always have a potted garden that is a
collection of various height and width pots. My pot garden can be 6' x 8'
and forms its own micro-climate. I often have little frogs or lizards
living in among the pots. The pots are fun to tend. If you have the space
for it, try it. you can make your potted garden fit your needs. Look in
seed catalogs for plants designed for pots, but I have used full-sized
eggplant, peppers and tomatoes (if using full-sized tomatoes, look for
'determinate' varieties and be sure to cage or stake, although there are
tomatoes meant for pots.) Experiment -- it's fun. I do have a regular
garden, but I never have enough sun space to try all the things I want.
Besides, potted vegetables can be very pretty. Mix with flowers you always
wanted to try. I've trained geraniums to a stake to over 6' high. Don't
limit yourself, because pots mean that you can baby stuff. Have fun!
Janet




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"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Christine Dabney" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 01:42:44 GMT, "brooklyn1"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I understand. What you're saying is you're not capable of a whole lot of
>>>gardening. Being handicapped as you describe you'd do better with
>>>container
>>>gardening. I had a great uncle, long gone, who was handicapped but loved
>>>to
>>>garden, he did miniature gardening, entire landscapes, trees, bushes,
>>>moss,
>>>ponds, streams of bits of mirror, etc. in tiny bottles, bottle caps,
>>>toothpaste caps, and even smaller, most required a magnifying glass to
>>>see
>>>the detail. They ran a two page article in the Sunday NY Mirror magazine
>>>section all about him... his entire garden of over a hundred plants
>>>occupied
>>>his tiny apartment kitchen window.. he liked to plant seeds from fruit
>>>he'd
>>>eat; apple. pear, citrus... most of his tiny gardens didn't last very
>>>long
>>>but he always had new ones.
>>>

>>
>> I have seen some portable "raised" beds, and some that are designed
>> for people such as me. I would love to be able to do more than
>> container gardening, if I could.
>>
>> I keep an eye out on the net for solutions...like maybe the whiskey
>> barrel type of thing. Or big enough planters.
>>
>> Just wondering how well squashes, and regular (not small or cherry
>> tomatoes) grow in that sort of container. I would love to have good
>> tomatoes, as well as a source of squash and squash blossoms....
>>
>> I hope vegetable gardening really takes off bigtime in this day and
>> age and economy. Maybe folks will finally discover how good some
>> vegetables taste when they are ripe and freshly harvested.
>>
>> Christine
>> --

> Years ago, (40) before large pots were generally available, I'd buy really
> large waste paper baskets for gardening on my deck (drill holes in bottom
> for drainage). You can grow full size tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, green
> onions, herbs, eggplant, potatoes, strawberries, squash (summer or
> winter) -- I can't think of all the stuff that I have grown in containers
> over the years. Whiskey barrels are nice, but get really heavy and take a
> lot of soil to fill. They do become a semi-permanent installation. If
> you choose pots, try to get pots that have a light-colored exterior to
> reflect the heat of the sun so that plant roots don't become overheated.
> I like pots that I or my husband can move around. That way I can shift
> something to get more sun if needed. I always have a potted garden that
> is a collection of various height and width pots. My pot garden can be 6'
> x 8' and forms its own micro-climate. I often have little frogs or
> lizards living in among the pots. The pots are fun to tend. If you have
> the space for it, try it. you can make your potted garden fit your needs.
> Look in seed catalogs for plants designed for pots, but I have used
> full-sized eggplant, peppers and tomatoes (if using full-sized tomatoes,
> look for 'determinate' varieties and be sure to cage or stake, although
> there are tomatoes meant for pots.) Experiment -- it's fun. I do have a
> regular garden, but I never have enough sun space to try all the things I
> want. Besides, potted vegetables can be very pretty. Mix with flowers you
> always wanted to try. I've trained geraniums to a stake to over 6' high.
> Don't limit yourself, because pots mean that you can baby stuff. Have
> fun!
> Janet
>

There's no limit to what can be used for container gardening, nowadays there
are plastic sacks that can be filled with potting mix and hung from a fence.
At my last house I had a collection of different sized ceramic chimney flue
pipes set about as planters, didn't matter that they had no bottoms as once
set in place they weren't moved. I also had some very large clay pots set
on redwood plant dollies. But for serious gardening I much prefer to plant
directly on the ground.

My old knees get stiff kneeling too, but with a "helper" it's very easy to
push yourself up, even if only a small light weight plastic stool... I have
a Rubbermaid step stool that follows me around the garden, just a simple
(extremely sturdy) one piece molded plastic stool that cost under $10:
http://tinyurl.com/c8vd9y

http://www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid...d=HPProd100516

And I love this (it's not just for old farts), got mine from a local plant
nursery as an end of season close out for $20: http://tinyurl.com/cdsxnu

http://www.amazon.com/Rumford-Garden...7211571&sr=8-2

There are many everyday items that can make chores simpler, an empty 5
gallon contractor bucket besides being the universal carry-all makes a great
gardening seat, that can also help those with erectile dysfunction get up
off the ground.



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brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Unless the participants are each in their own right accomplished
>>> gardeners those raised beds will very soon become
>>> abandoned heaps of rot. Raised beds are far more a challenge than beds
>>> directly on the ground.

>>
>> I have never understood the reason for raised beds, other than aesthetics.

>
> Raised beds can be somewhat helpful for those with handicaps that prevent
> bending but I think the kneeling/sitting combo apparatuses found at plant
> nurseries and elsewhere work better...



We must be talking dimensions much different from what I was thinking
of. I had envisioned something raised maybe 10-12 inches, which would
still require people to bend over and, and if there is any width to it
you are going have to get in and kneel or bend over anyway. Making a
raised bed high enough and narrow enough to allow one to tend it without
bending and kneeling is simply too much work and expense for someone
with my level of interest in gardening. I like fresh berries, herbs and
berries and have enough flowers to make things look pleasant, but that
is about it.
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"Dave Smith" wrote:
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Unless the participants are each in their own right accomplished
>>>> gardeners those raised beds will very soon become
>>>> abandoned heaps of rot. Raised beds are far more a challenge than beds
>>>> directly on the ground.
>>>
>>> I have never understood the reason for raised beds, other than
>>> aesthetics.

>>
>> Raised beds can be somewhat helpful for those with handicaps that prevent
>> bending but I think the kneeling/sitting combo apparatuses found at plant
>> nurseries and elsewhere work better...

>
>
> We must be talking dimensions much different from what I was thinking of.
> I had envisioned something raised maybe 10-12 inches, which would still
> require people to bend over and, and if there is any width to it >
> you are going have to get in and kneel or bend over anyway. Making a
> raised bed high enough and narrow enough to allow one to tend it without
> bending and kneeling is simply too much work and expense for someone with
> my level of interest in gardening.


Surrounding a garden plot with 12" X 2" lumber doesn't create a raised bed,
that's just a border to keep the lawn from encroaching, and should be sunk
into the soil like 4-5 inches to act as a barrier to encroaching roots, also
to help deter moles... my entire vegetable garden is enclosed by real RR
ties (12" square) about a third set into the ground, keeps the lawn out, and
the ameneded soil in, because my garden is on sloping land, purposely placed
abbuting a small year round stream so I never need to water, but mostly it's
something to support my deer fence. My 50' X 50' garden is definitely not a
raised bed.

Modom gave a dimension for width (4 ft) but gave none for height, probably
figuring on the 12" width of his planks, WRONG!. A 4 ft width is typical,
but with a 24"-30" height...making the entire raised bed garden area easily
accessible without kneeling or stooping when working from *both sides*...
the primary purpose of a raised bed is so it can be worked from both sides
while still standing on the ground. Normally people will have two or three
units connected in a "T", "X", "U", or "H" configuration... these
configurations add strength and require less materials. However the problem
with raised beds for a community garden is that having so many totally
separate units negates the economies of scale one could derive in material
and maintenence, and especially in tilling and soil prep each season... it's
much simpler and quicker to work all the soil in one large bed on the ground
than for each person to work their raised bed unit individually... and when
folks climb up into a raised bed there's a big liabliity factor, especially
when with a tiller... not to mention that novices tilling will invaribly
damage the raised bed lumber, and with 39 people who have never even touched
earth previously there're very good odds a few will seriously damage
themselves. It's much more economical, and far safer, for an experienced
person with a large tiller mounted on a tractor to work the entire piece of
land each season when no one else is around... having 39 noobies up in the
air with tillers is damned scary, not to mention needing all those tillers,
and gasolene cans... you can bet someone is going to light up some weed.

From my own personal experience with commuinty gardens I know that the only
people who gravitate to this kind of gardening are those who don't have a
place to garden where they live, with the majority never growing anything
previously. More than half won't last more than four weeks before they
disappear never to be heard from again. The remaining population will
slowly shrink as the weeks progress until only a handful remain. Those
abandoned raised beds will just sit as left. But with plots staked off
directly on the ground those who are serious about gardening will expand to
take over the abandoned plots. And people who are into gardening will want
to water their own, they don't want drip irrigation foisted on them. Raised
beds with drip irrigation for a community garden is pure silliness, conjured
up by folks who know zero about gardening.


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