Hi folks,

I sought to make this bread because I read that it was the proper name
for the Sam's Club "Organic Tuscan Bread" that I have enjoyed
immensely. I had very poor results with my first batch and would like
to ask for some advice.

The recipe says to bake the bread 45-55 minutes at 450 degrees. That
seems way off. When I took my first two loaves out they were hard as
rocks.

Here's a picture before cutting. The beer can is for scale (of
course).

http://www.evanthibeault.com/whole%20loaf.jpg

The interior wasn't really dry, but the overall product was hardly
edible. Here's a shot of the cross section:

http://www.evanthibeault.com/cross%20section.jpg

(Both shots were without a flash to preserve colors at the expense of
some blur.)

I had a third loaf to bake after the first two came out, so I tried a
lower temperature of 350 degrees. I took it out of the oven when it
seemed the right color. It was certainly less dry and brittle, but the
appearance was still pretty awful and the taste is nothing to write
home about.

Overall, it seems like even if I get this recipe cooking properly, it
will not create a bread like the one I wanted. The bread I want is
lighter in color (perhaps less whole wheat flour), and the flavor is
much better.

Any advice?

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 17:16:46 -0700 (PDT), Shrubman
> wrote:

>Hi folks,
>
>I sought to make this bread because I read that it was the proper name
>for the Sam's Club "Organic Tuscan Bread" that I have enjoyed
>immensely. I had very poor results with my first batch and would like
>to ask for some advice.
>
>The recipe says to bake the bread 45-55 minutes at 450 degrees. That
>seems way off. When I took my first two loaves out they were hard as
>rocks.
>
>Here's a picture before cutting. The beer can is for scale (of
>course).
>
>http://www.evanthibeault.com/whole%20loaf.jpg
>
>The interior wasn't really dry, but the overall product was hardly
>edible. Here's a shot of the cross section:
>
>http://www.evanthibeault.com/cross%20section.jpg
>
>(Both shots were without a flash to preserve colors at the expense of
>some blur.)
>
>I had a third loaf to bake after the first two came out, so I tried a
>lower temperature of 350 degrees. I took it out of the oven when it
>seemed the right color. It was certainly less dry and brittle, but the
>appearance was still pretty awful and the taste is nothing to write
>home about.
>
>Overall, it seems like even if I get this recipe cooking properly, it
>will not create a bread like the one I wanted. The bread I want is
>lighter in color (perhaps less whole wheat flour), and the flavor is
>much better.
>
>Any advice?


I have her recipe for this in front of me. These are loaves that are
supposed to puff up in the oven, not end up flat as you show in the
pictures. The color, though, does seem right to me, but photos can
often be deceiving.

The interior crumb does not look bad, though. That is the sort of
texture one would get with a slack, artisan type of bread. You did not
achieve much height, though.

Granted, this is not a recipe I have tried, but I am at this very
minute playing with one a few pages earlier in the same book, "The
Italian Baker." I am making cocodrillo.

That is a long bake at high temps, but such times must be monitored
carefully by the home baker as ovens may vary quite a bit. 350 is most
definitely too low for a bread of this type. And again, I have not
tried this recipe and am unfamiliar with the particular bread.

Field really is quite good, though no one is fool proof, so let's take
it in parts...

How did your biga turn out? How long did you let it sit at room
temperature before you either used it or refrigerated it. If you did
refrigerate it, how old was it when you incorporated it into this
recipe? Did the biga appear active to you? Was it bubbly? What kind
of flour did you use for it? Was your yeast and flour fresh?

When you made the main dough, what kind of whole wheat flour did you
use? Any specifics you can offer about it?

This is a slack dough. Did you do it by hand or with a mixer? How did
the first and second rises progress?

You may also want to post your questions in alt.bread.recipes where
someone may actually know this recipe.

Tell, me, though...what kind of bread were you seeking? If you can
describe what kind of crust and crumb you are looking to make and
whether you want an artisan sort of loaf or one to be used for
sandwiches, we may better be able to help you.

You may also find some general information he

http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/breads/biga/biga.htm

or he

http://theartisan.net/bredfrm.htm

Or from doing a search he

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

Or looking around he

http://www.abrfaq.info/

Boron

Boron Elgar > wrote in
:

> These are loaves that are
> supposed to puff up in the oven, not end up flat as you show in the
> pictures. The color, though, does seem right to me, but photos can
> often be deceiving.
>

Not enough kneading is one cause of flat bread. Research the windowpane
test.

--

The house of the burning beet-Alan

A man in line at the bank kept falling over...when he got to a teller he
asked for his balance.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:57:50 GMT, hahabogus > wrote:

>Boron Elgar > wrote in
:
>
>> These are loaves that are
>> supposed to puff up in the oven, not end up flat as you show in the
>> pictures. The color, though, does seem right to me, but photos can
>> often be deceiving.
>>
>
>Not enough kneading is one cause of flat bread. Research the windowpane
>test.

No necessarily. I often do no kneading whatsoever and wind up with
fabulous breads. I never bother with windowpanes, either. There are
very fresh winds blowing through the home bread baking world these
days.

It is quite easy to develop the required gluten structure with some
breads simply by retarding the dough in the fridge overnight. And of
course, the use of stretch and fold also eliminates kneading. The
optimal method used is based on the recipe or bread sought,
convenience and plain old preferences.

BUT, Field has some very specific requirements about this particular
bread, and with the biga and the slack dough, that is why I inquired
about the use of a mixer or if it was made by hand.

Boron

On Mar 9, 8:54 pm, Boron Elgar > wrote:
(snip)
> I have her recipe for this in front of me. These are loaves that are
> supposed to puff up in the oven, not end up flat as you show in the
> pictures. The color, though, does seem right to me, but photos can
> often be deceiving.

Yes, my loaves were flat. The color in the photo actually looks better
than reality. In reality the loaves were less golden and more of a
dull brown.
>
> The interior crumb does not look bad, though. That is the sort of
> texture one would get with a slack, artisan type of bread. You did not
> achieve much height, though.

Yes, the interior LOOKED right.
>
> Granted, this is not a recipe I have tried, but I am at this very
> minute playing with one a few pages earlier in the same book, "The
> Italian Baker." I am making cocodrillo.
>
> That is a long bake at high temps, but such times must be monitored
> carefully by the home baker as ovens may vary quite a bit. 350 is most
> definitely too low for a bread of this type. And again, I have not
> tried this recipe and am unfamiliar with the particular bread.

I use a separate oven thermometer. The oven runs consistently 25
degrees too cool.
>
> Field really is quite good, though no one is fool proof, so let's take
> it in parts...
>
> How did your biga turn out? How long did you let it sit at room
> temperature before you either used it or refrigerated it.
I guess it sat at room temperature about 36 hours.
>If you did
> refrigerate it, how old was it when you incorporated it into this
> recipe? Did the biga appear active to you? Was it bubbly? What kind
> of flour did you use for it? Was your yeast and flour fresh?

It was very active, as far as I, being inexperienced, can say. It was
all bubbles and holes and very elastic and sticky. I King Arthur all-
purpose flour and Red Star active dry yeast, both of them newly
purchased.
>
> When you made the main dough, what kind of whole wheat flour did you
> use? Any specifics you can offer about it?

In addition to those mentioned above I used newly purchased Organic
Whole Wheat flour.
>
> This is a slack dough. Did you do it by hand or with a mixer? How did
> the first and second rises progress?

I used a stand mixer. As the recipe recommended I used the paddle
first and then the dough hook. Both rises seemed fine.

One thing I can say I did that might have been a mistake was after
shaping the dough into "loaves" I left them longer than recommended at
room temperature covered by a towel. The recipe says 1 hour. I had to
run an errand and left them at least 2 hours. They seemed too flat
when I first shaped them and remained that way, even though they grew
in size. I clearly need practice with handling and shaping the dough
after it comes out of the mixing bowl.
>
> You may also want to post your questions in alt.bread.recipes where
> someone may actually know this recipe.
>
> Tell, me, though...what kind of bread were you seeking? If you can
> describe what kind of crust and crumb you are looking to make and
> whether you want an artisan sort of loaf or one to be used for
> sandwiches, we may better be able to help you.

The bread I was buying from Sam's before they stopped stocking it was
par-baked...after finishing it at home the loaves were golden brown
with a thin crust. Tearing the bread into pieces yielded few crumbs.
It was chewy and less earthy tasting than what I made. Here's a
slightly more informative link about the bread:
http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...=5&item=346749
>

> Boron

HTH,

Evan

On Mar 9, 6:19*pm, Boron Elgar > wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:57:50 GMT, hahabogus > wrote:
> >Boron Elgar > wrote in
> :
>
> >> These are loaves that are
> >> supposed to puff up in the oven, not end up flat as you show in the
> >> pictures. The color, though, does seem right to me, but photos can
> >> often be deceiving.
>
> >Not enough kneading is one cause of flat bread. Research the windowpane
> >test.
>
> No necessarily. I often do no kneading whatsoever and wind up with
> fabulous breads. *I never bother with windowpanes, either. *There are
> very fresh winds blowing through the home bread baking world these
> days.
>
> It is quite easy to develop the required gluten structure with some
> breads simply by retarding the dough in the fridge overnight. And of
> course, the use of stretch and fold also eliminates kneading. The
> optimal method used is based on the recipe or bread sought,
> convenience and plain old preferences.
>
> BUT, Field has some very specific requirements about this particular
> bread, and with the biga and the slack dough, that is why I inquired
> about the use of a mixer or if it was made by hand.
>
> Boron



I'm convinced that good bakers have special gods that guide their
hands. My great aunt often made the most wonderful breads you can
imagine.

Time and again, I stood next to her, followed her explicit
instructions, and knead in the same manner as her gifted hands. . .but
alas - I was never able to achieve the mastery, she possessed.

You can use most bread I bake as soccer balls;-(

Myrl Jeffcoat

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 18:53:29 -0700 (PDT), Shrubman
> wrote:

>On Mar 9, 8:54 pm, Boron Elgar > wrote:
>(snip)
>> I have her recipe for this in front of me. These are loaves that are
>> supposed to puff up in the oven, not end up flat as you show in the
>> pictures. The color, though, does seem right to me, but photos can
>> often be deceiving.
>
>Yes, my loaves were flat. The color in the photo actually looks better
>than reality. In reality the loaves were less golden and more of a
>dull brown.

A dull brown may mean an overproofed loaf.
>>
>> How did your biga turn out? How long did you let it sit at room
>> temperature before you either used it or refrigerated it.

>I guess it sat at room temperature about 36 hours.

That may have been too long. She recommends 6 to 24 hours at a cool
temp, then refrigerate if it is going to be kept.

So, your biga may not have been at its peak..

>> Did the biga appear active to you? Was it bubbly? What kind
>> of flour did you use for it? Was your yeast and flour fresh?
>
>It was very active, as far as I, being inexperienced, can say. It was
>all bubbles and holes and very elastic and sticky. I King Arthur all-
>purpose flour and Red Star active dry yeast, both of them newly
>purchased.

Sounds good, but hard to know. It may have collapsed and been past its
prime. Not saying definitely, but maybe.
>>

>One thing I can say I did that might have been a mistake was after
>shaping the dough into "loaves" I left them longer than recommended at
>room temperature covered by a towel. The recipe says 1 hour. I had to
>run an errand and left them at least 2 hours.

This, combined with the older biga may be what led to the problem.

>They seemed too flat
>when I first shaped them and remained that way, even though they grew
>in size. I clearly need practice with handling and shaping the dough
>after it comes out of the mixing bowl.

A slack dough can be contained, but not handled easily. It's tricky.
No question about it. It takes practice, but you can master it, I'm
sure. I use a "wall" of flour, parchment paper and a bench knife or
dough scraper...and sometimes borrow an extra hand or two from my
husband.

>> You may also want to post your questions in alt.bread.recipes where
>> someone may actually know this recipe.
>>
>> Tell, me, though...what kind of bread were you seeking? If you can
>> describe what kind of crust and crumb you are looking to make and
>> whether you want an artisan sort of loaf or one to be used for
>> sandwiches, we may better be able to help you.
>
>The bread I was buying from Sam's before they stopped stocking it was
>par-baked...after finishing it at home the loaves were golden brown
>with a thin crust. Tearing the bread into pieces yielded few crumbs.
>It was chewy and less earthy tasting than what I made. Here's a
>slightly more informative link about the bread:
>http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...=5&item=346749
>>
I do not know that bread at all. Sounds as if it's great, but I
understand the urge to make your own.

Try another recipe. The one you chose is a bit complex and takes a
practiced hand and a familiarity with pre-ferments. (and remember,
too, that sometimes, a recipe in a book has a goof and just plain
doesn't work, no matter what your skill set.. it happens.) Not to say
your shouldn't stretch your skills, that's the fun of baking bread,
but maybe get a bit more practice with something simpler or read some
of the links I posted and look through the photos or videos online and
it might give you some more ideas of how to get through this
particular recipe.

The classic NY Times no knead bread is a very simple recipe and
technique that yields a very nice loaf. You can easily replace at
least 1/3 of the flour in it with whole wheat and do just fine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html

And if you dig around online a bit, you will find dozens of forums and
online videos that are very specifically about this NYT bread. Visuals
may help.

Dig around on youtube at the various bread videos. Look through Julia
Child's online video treasure trove. She has a lot of them with bread
bakers that you might enjoy. Then, by golly, roll your sleeves back up
and forge ahead. Flour is cheap. Enjoy yourself with it. Do not get
discouraged. It takes awhile to understand the basics, but you'll
master them.

Boron

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 19:22:12 -0700 (PDT), Myrl Jeffcoat
> wrote:


>
>
>I'm convinced that good bakers have special gods that guide their
>hands. My great aunt often made the most wonderful breads you can
>imagine.
>
>Time and again, I stood next to her, followed her explicit
>instructions, and knead in the same manner as her gifted hands. . .but
>alas - I was never able to achieve the mastery, she possessed.
>
>You can use most bread I bake as soccer balls;-(
>

The Bread Faeries. One must treat them kindly.

Boron

On Mar 9, 7:32*pm, Boron Elgar > wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 19:22:12 -0700 (PDT), Myrl Jeffcoat
>
> > wrote:
>
> >I'm convinced that good bakers have special gods that guide their
> >hands. *My great aunt often made the most wonderful breads you can
> >imagine.
>
> >Time and again, I stood next to her, followed her explicit
> >instructions, and knead in the same manner as her gifted hands. . .but
> >alas - I was never able to achieve the mastery, she possessed.
>
> >You can use most bread I bake as soccer balls;-(
>
> The Bread Faeries. One must treat them kindly.
>
> Boron



I'm convinced of it. My aunt was a nurse, and she had warm healing
hands. I tad high-strung and nervous when I was younger. I don't
think the bread faeries cared for my vibrations;-(

Myrl

Thanks for all the help, folks. I'll try again next weekend.

Evan

Shrubman wrote

> I had a third loaf to bake after the first two came out, so I tried
a
> lower temperature of 350 degrees. I took it out of the oven when it
> seemed the right color. It was certainly less dry and brittle, but
the
> appearance was still pretty awful and the taste is nothing to write
> home about.

Bigio means "triste" (sad) or "scuro", "scolorito" (dark, pale). Maybe
that's the intended color.
--
Vilco
Think pink, drink rose'