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Default sushi grade fish

We were at a seafood restaurant the other night.
Jim was asked how he'd like his tuna.
He answered rare, and then, because there's often confusion in what's
meant by rare, he said, practically raw, as in sushi.
The waiter then went into an explanation that we'd never heard before
and which didn't make sense to us. He said that they couldn't serve it
rare because they'd been unable to get sushi grade fish. He said that
it was high quality, just one grade below sushi grade, that he'd tell
the chef that Jim wanted it rare, but that it couldn't be raw.


The tuna came to Jim's liking, seared on the outside but pink in the
middle. We're not complaining. We're confused.


We wondered what sushi grade meant and assumed that it had to do with
freshness. Then it was suggested that it has to do with connective
tissue. This page says it's related to temperatures at which parasites
are killed. http://www.sushifaq.com/sushi-grade-fish.htm


Anyone have the real scoop or the definitive webpage?


--Lia

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Julia Altshuler wrote:
> We were at a seafood restaurant the other night.
> Jim was asked how he'd like his tuna.
> He answered rare, and then, because there's often confusion in what's
> meant by rare, he said, practically raw, as in sushi.
> The waiter then went into an explanation that we'd never heard before
> and which didn't make sense to us. He said that they couldn't serve it
> rare because they'd been unable to get sushi grade fish.


Sounds like they don't know what it is or didn't want to pay for it.

>He said that
> it was high quality, just one grade below sushi grade, that he'd tell
> the chef that Jim wanted it rare, but that it couldn't be raw.
>


Was this an industrial big box restaurant where if anything is beyond
what is in their operations manual they don't have a clue?


>
> The tuna came to Jim's liking, seared on the outside but pink in the
> middle. We're not complaining. We're confused.
>
>
> We wondered what sushi grade meant and assumed that it had to do with
> freshness. Then it was suggested that it has to do with connective
> tissue. This page says it's related to temperatures at which parasites
> are killed. http://www.sushifaq.com/sushi-grade-fish.htm
>
>

The info on that link is accurate. It is all related to a reasonable
assurance that parasites have been destroyed by flash freezing.



> Anyone have the real scoop or the definitive webpage?
>
>
> --Lia
>

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Julia wrote on Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:37:39 -0500:

JA> The tuna came to Jim's liking, seared on the outside but
JA> pink in the middle. We're not complaining. We're
JA> confused.

JA> We wondered what sushi grade meant and assumed that it had
JA> to do with freshness. Then it was suggested that it has to
JA> do with connective tissue. This page says it's related to
JA> temperatures at which parasites are killed.
http://www.sushifaq.com/sushi-grade-fish.htm

JA> Anyone have the real scoop or the definitive webpage?

If you don't find anything satisfactory, you could ask the
question on alt.food.sushi. I think I know some answers but I
don't claim to be a real expert. "Sushi grade" really refers to
quality and freshness of taste but sushi fish *is* quickly
frozen to kill any lurking parasites. There is a Sushi How-To by
Eugene Ciurana that I think is reliable:
http://tinyurl.com/32ozbd

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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Sqwertz > wrote:

>There is no legal definition for "sushi-grade". However, all
>fish to be served raw at restaurants must be flash frozen (and
>thawed) beforehand if meant to be served served raw. At least
>here in the U.S.


That's probably correct, however "sushi grade" tuna as sold
at fish counters around here is simply tuna of the right species
that is sufficiently fresh. From a safety standpoint it is not
usually necessary to freeze tuna and similar fishes (e.g. ono).
In Hawaii any grocery store sells raw tuna meant for immediate
consumption and I'm pretty sure it's never been frozen. Often you
can see them slicing up the freshly-caught tunas and onos behind the
fish counter.

Steve
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George wrote:

> Sounds like they don't know what it is or didn't want to pay for it.


> Was this an industrial big box restaurant where if anything is beyond
> what is in their operations manual they don't have a clue?

http://www.sushifaq.com/sushi-grade-fish.htm

> The info on that link is accurate. It is all related to a reasonable
> assurance that parasites have been destroyed by flash freezing.



It wasn't a big box chain. The waiter couldn't answer our question, but
I got the idea he was a nice guy and good waiter who didn't know the
answer to that one question, not a total idiot. The restaurant was a
nice enough one, not an expensive spectacular one, but one with fresh
fish, nicely prepared. I'd go back. Now that I'm getting answers on
what sushi grade is, I'd guess that the management does have clue,
wasn't able to get what they wanted from their purveyors, did their best
to educate the wait staff and didn't explain it quite right to this one guy.


I'm glad for the answer and surprised by it. I'm so used to thinking of
killing off baddies with high temperatures that it never occured to me
that in some instances the same can be done with cold temperatures.


Thanks for the quick responses.


--Lia




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Julia Altshuler > wrote:

>It wasn't a big box chain. The waiter couldn't answer our question, but
>I got the idea he was a nice guy and good waiter who didn't know the
>answer to that one question, not a total idiot. The restaurant was a
>nice enough one, not an expensive spectacular one, but one with fresh
>fish, nicely prepared. I'd go back. Now that I'm getting answers on
>what sushi grade is, I'd guess that the management does have clue,
>wasn't able to get what they wanted from their purveyors, did their best
>to educate the wait staff and didn't explain it quite right to this one guy.


Here is some more information from the FDA website:

Is it safe to eat Japanese foods like sushi and sashimi?

It depends. People in the at-risk groups should not
eat raw or partially cooked fish or shellfish. Sashimi
is a Japanese specialty that always has raw fish,
but not all sushi contains raw seafood. Some sushi is
completely vegetarian. The two main safety concerns for
people who eat raw or uncooked seafood are parasites and
harmful microorganisms. Parasites in some undercooked
fish species can harm both healthy and at-risk
people. Commercially-prepared raw fish species that
can harbor parasites may have been previously frozen to
kill any parasites, but not all such fish may have been
treated. However, freezing does not kill all harmful
microorganisms

[..]

However, for people who choose to eat raw fish anyway,
one rule of thumb is to eat fish that has been
previously frozen. Some species of fish can contain
parasites, and freezing will kill any parasites that
may be present. However, freezing does not kill all
harmful microorganisms, so the safest route is to
cook seafood.

Some people are at greater risk for foodborne illness,
and should not eat raw or partially cooked fish or
shellfish. These susceptible groups include: pregnant
women, young children, older adults, people whose
immune systems are compromised, and people who have
decreased stomach acidity.

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmeat.html

My reading of this is that the FDA does not particularly believe
that any fish served raw has been previously flash-frozen.

Steve
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Sqwertz > wrote:

>I know that most tuna is less prone to parasites, but I don't
>think that tuna is excluded from the freezing policies.


That's my understanding too.

I just buy "sushi-grade" tuna or ono, slice it up, and
eat it with wasabi and tamari. In my estimate this is
safer than say eating raw oysters, probably by a large margin.

>And I don't think fish advertised as "sashimi-grade" in a retail
>store is required to be flash frozen first - only in restaurants.


Right. So we have the odd situation that "sushi grade /
sashimi grade" tuna is not the same tuna as is used in
sushi restaurants.

Steve
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Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Julia Altshuler > wrote:
>
> >It wasn't a big box chain. The waiter couldn't answer our question, but
> >I got the idea he was a nice guy and good waiter who didn't know the
> >answer to that one question, not a total idiot. The restaurant was a
> >nice enough one, not an expensive spectacular one, but one with fresh
> >fish, nicely prepared. I'd go back. Now that I'm getting answers on
> >what sushi grade is, I'd guess that the management does have clue,
> >wasn't able to get what they wanted from their purveyors, did their best
> >to educate the wait staff and didn't explain it quite right to this one guy.

>
> Here is some more information from the FDA website:
>
> Is it safe to eat Japanese foods like sushi and sashimi?
>
> It depends. People in the at-risk groups should not
> eat raw or partially cooked fish or shellfish. Sashimi
> is a Japanese specialty that always has raw fish,
> but not all sushi contains raw seafood. Some sushi is
> completely vegetarian. The two main safety concerns for
> people who eat raw or uncooked seafood are parasites and
> harmful microorganisms. Parasites in some undercooked
> fish species can harm both healthy and at-risk
> people. Commercially-prepared raw fish species that
> can harbor parasites may have been previously frozen to
> kill any parasites, but not all such fish may have been
> treated. However, freezing does not kill all harmful
> microorganisms
>
> [..]
>
> However, for people who choose to eat raw fish anyway,
> one rule of thumb is to eat fish that has been
> previously frozen. Some species of fish can contain
> parasites, and freezing will kill any parasites that
> may be present. However, freezing does not kill all
> harmful microorganisms, so the safest route is to
> cook seafood.
>
> Some people are at greater risk for foodborne illness,
> and should not eat raw or partially cooked fish or
> shellfish. These susceptible groups include: pregnant
> women, young children, older adults, people whose
> immune systems are compromised, and people who have
> decreased stomach acidity.
>
> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmeat.html
>
> My reading of this is that the FDA does not particularly believe
> that any fish served raw has been previously flash-frozen.
>
> Steve


My read is that they are trying to say that eating raw fish from a
reputable source is safe for most people, but with the usual
noncommittal weasel words of a government agency.
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Pete C. > wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:


>> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmeat.html


>> My reading of this is that the FDA does not particularly believe
>> that any fish served raw has been previously flash-frozen.


>My read is that they are trying to say that eating raw fish from a
>reputable source is safe for most people, but with the usual
>noncommittal weasel words of a government agency.


I'm not sure they are saying this, and if intended as a categorical
statement I wouldn't agree with it either -- raw salmon even
from a reputable source is not safe.

Steve
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"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...
> We were at a seafood restaurant the other night.
> Jim was asked how he'd like his tuna.
> He answered rare, and then, because there's often confusion in what's
> meant by rare, he said, practically raw, as in sushi.
> The waiter then went into an explanation that we'd never heard before and
> which didn't make sense to us. He said that they couldn't serve it rare
> because they'd been unable to get sushi grade fish. He said that it was
> high quality, just one grade below sushi grade, that he'd tell the chef
> that Jim wanted it rare, but that it couldn't be raw.
>
>
>

Go to their web site and read an article in the June 2007 Vanity Fair on the
fish market in Japan. It is very interesting, but does drag on a bit.

Dale P



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Steve Pope wrote:

> Pete C. > wrote:
>
>>Steve Pope wrote:

>
>>> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmeat.html

>
>>> My reading of this is that the FDA does not particularly believe that
>>> any fish served raw has been previously flash-frozen.

>
>>My read is that they are trying to say that eating raw fish from a
>>reputable source is safe for most people, but with the usual
>>noncommittal weasel words of a government agency.

>
> I'm not sure they are saying this, and if intended as a categorical
> statement I wouldn't agree with it either -- raw salmon even from a
> reputable source is not safe.


I read it your way: it's not a black and white issue, so they're not
trying to falsely make it look like one. So they're getting bagged
for treating it honestly. Some people's hobby is bitching about the
government regardless of what it does, just because it's the government.


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Blinky the Shark wrote:
>
> Steve Pope wrote:
>
> > Pete C. > wrote:
> >
> >>Steve Pope wrote:

> >
> >>> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmeat.html

> >
> >>> My reading of this is that the FDA does not particularly believe that
> >>> any fish served raw has been previously flash-frozen.

> >
> >>My read is that they are trying to say that eating raw fish from a
> >>reputable source is safe for most people, but with the usual
> >>noncommittal weasel words of a government agency.

> >
> > I'm not sure they are saying this, and if intended as a categorical
> > statement I wouldn't agree with it either -- raw salmon even from a
> > reputable source is not safe.

>
> I read it your way: it's not a black and white issue, so they're not
> trying to falsely make it look like one. So they're getting bagged
> for treating it honestly. Some people's hobby is bitching about the
> government regardless of what it does, just because it's the government.


It's not black and white, but it's far from a crap shoot either. Given
the very high numbers of people eating sashimi and sushi with raw fish
every single day of every year and the lack of reports of illness, it
stands to reason that the probability of having a problem is quite low.
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"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...
> We were at a seafood restaurant the other night.
> Jim was asked how he'd like his tuna.
> He answered rare, and then, because there's often confusion in what's meant by
> rare, he said, practically raw, as in sushi.
> The waiter then went into an explanation that we'd never heard before and which
> didn't make sense to us. He said that they couldn't serve it rare because they'd
> been unable to get sushi grade fish. He said that it was high quality, just one
> grade below sushi grade, that he'd tell the chef that Jim wanted it rare, but that
> it couldn't be raw.
>
>
> The tuna came to Jim's liking, seared on the outside but pink in the middle. We're
> not complaining. We're confused.
>
>
> We wondered what sushi grade meant and assumed that it had to do with freshness.
> Then it was suggested that it has to do with connective tissue. This page says
> it's related to temperatures at which parasites are killed.
> http://www.sushifaq.com/sushi-grade-fish.htm
>
>
> Anyone have the real scoop or the definitive webpage?
>
>
> --Lia


This is tricky because there is no legal standard for "sushi-grade" or
"sashimi-grade". Fish that is labeled as such generally meets two criteria: First, it
is very fresh. Second, it has been flash frozen for a minimum of 15 hours to kill any
possible parasites.
At least, this is what the sushi chef at Ra said. :-)

kimberly
>


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Dale P wrote:
>
> Go to their web site and read an article in the June 2007 Vanity Fair on
> the fish market in Japan. It is very interesting, but does drag on a bit.



I keep trying, but I'm experiencing technical difficulties on this end.
I may end up doing it the old fashioned way by going to the library.


--Lia

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On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:13:10 -0800, Blinky the Shark
> wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:
>
>> Pete C. > wrote:
>>
>>>Steve Pope wrote:

>>
>>>> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmeat.html

>>
>>>> My reading of this is that the FDA does not particularly believe that
>>>> any fish served raw has been previously flash-frozen.

>>
>>>My read is that they are trying to say that eating raw fish from a
>>>reputable source is safe for most people, but with the usual
>>>noncommittal weasel words of a government agency.

>>
>> I'm not sure they are saying this, and if intended as a categorical
>> statement I wouldn't agree with it either -- raw salmon even from a
>> reputable source is not safe.

>
>I read it your way: it's not a black and white issue, so they're not
>trying to falsely make it look like one. So they're getting bagged
>for treating it honestly. Some people's hobby is bitching about the
>government regardless of what it does, just because it's the government.


and a poorly regulated hobby it is, too.

your pal,
blake


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On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:53:03 GMT, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>Blinky the Shark wrote:
>>
>> Steve Pope wrote:
>>
>> > Pete C. > wrote:
>> >
>> >>Steve Pope wrote:
>> >
>> >>> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmeat.html
>> >
>> >>> My reading of this is that the FDA does not particularly believe that
>> >>> any fish served raw has been previously flash-frozen.
>> >
>> >>My read is that they are trying to say that eating raw fish from a
>> >>reputable source is safe for most people, but with the usual
>> >>noncommittal weasel words of a government agency.
>> >
>> > I'm not sure they are saying this, and if intended as a categorical
>> > statement I wouldn't agree with it either -- raw salmon even from a
>> > reputable source is not safe.

>>
>> I read it your way: it's not a black and white issue, so they're not
>> trying to falsely make it look like one. So they're getting bagged
>> for treating it honestly. Some people's hobby is bitching about the
>> government regardless of what it does, just because it's the government.

>
>It's not black and white, but it's far from a crap shoot either. Given
>the very high numbers of people eating sashimi and sushi with raw fish
>every single day of every year and the lack of reports of illness, it
>stands to reason that the probability of having a problem is quite low.


just don't get your sushi at jack-in-the-box.

your pal,
blake
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Julia Altshuler wrote:
> Dale P wrote:
>>
>> Go to their web site and read an article in the June 2007 Vanity Fair
>> on the fish market in Japan. It is very interesting, but does drag on
>> a bit.

>
>
> I keep trying, but I'm experiencing technical difficulties on this end.
> I may end up doing it the old fashioned way by going to the library.
>
>
> --Lia
>



Couple good shorts of Tsukiji market on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu8OtbeeGeA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN02KzINVSU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_acMX5mcvI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG0tmLKfhHM
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blake murphy wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:13:10 -0800, Blinky the Shark
> > wrote:
>
>>Steve Pope wrote:
>>
>>> Pete C. > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Steve Pope wrote:
>>>
>>>>> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmeat.html
>>>
>>>>> My reading of this is that the FDA does not particularly believe that
>>>>> any fish served raw has been previously flash-frozen.
>>>
>>>>My read is that they are trying to say that eating raw fish from a
>>>>reputable source is safe for most people, but with the usual
>>>>noncommittal weasel words of a government agency.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure they are saying this, and if intended as a categorical
>>> statement I wouldn't agree with it either -- raw salmon even from a
>>> reputable source is not safe.

>>
>>I read it your way: it's not a black and white issue, so they're not
>>trying to falsely make it look like one. So they're getting bagged
>>for treating it honestly. Some people's hobby is bitching about the
>>government regardless of what it does, just because it's the government.

>
> and a poorly regulated hobby it is, too.


Perhaps testing and registration is needed, with periodic courses to keep
the members up to date.


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On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:20:50 -0500, Julia Altshuler
> wrote:

>Dale P wrote:
>>
>> Go to their web site and read an article in the June 2007 Vanity Fair on
>> the fish market in Japan. It is very interesting, but does drag on a bit.

>
>
>I keep trying, but I'm experiencing technical difficulties on this end.
> I may end up doing it the old fashioned way by going to the library.
>


I'll email it to you, Lia.... it's the "If You Knew Sushi" article?

sf

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On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 11:29:12 -0800, Blinky the Shark
> wrote:

>blake murphy wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:13:10 -0800, Blinky the Shark
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Steve Pope wrote:
>>>
>>>> Pete C. > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Steve Pope wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttmeat.html
>>>>
>>>>>> My reading of this is that the FDA does not particularly believe that
>>>>>> any fish served raw has been previously flash-frozen.
>>>>
>>>>>My read is that they are trying to say that eating raw fish from a
>>>>>reputable source is safe for most people, but with the usual
>>>>>noncommittal weasel words of a government agency.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure they are saying this, and if intended as a categorical
>>>> statement I wouldn't agree with it either -- raw salmon even from a
>>>> reputable source is not safe.
>>>
>>>I read it your way: it's not a black and white issue, so they're not
>>>trying to falsely make it look like one. So they're getting bagged
>>>for treating it honestly. Some people's hobby is bitching about the
>>>government regardless of what it does, just because it's the government.

>>
>> and a poorly regulated hobby it is, too.

>
>Perhaps testing and registration is needed, with periodic courses to keep
>the members up to date.


lots of folks desperately need a refresher course. dark mutterings
about socialized medicine are being dusted off again.

your pal,
blake
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