In the weekend's news here (Denver area):

A group of Girl Scouts was scammed while selling cookies at a
supermarket by a couple who bought a box of cookies and paid
for them with a $100 bill.

They received change for the $100 but when the girls went to
deposit the day's receipts they were told at the bank that the
bill was counterfeit.

One of the girls said the bill "didn't look right". It was
faded and
1/4 inch shorter than the other bills they had in their till
but the
couple explained that away saying it had been through the wash.

The news reported that the troop would be bailed out by the
local G.S. council, but today's report said there had been
many donations made to the troop in excess of the $100 to help
mitigate the scam.

gloria p

"Puester" > wrote in message
...
>
> In the weekend's news here (Denver area):
>
> A group of Girl Scouts was scammed while selling cookies at a
> supermarket by a couple who bought a box of cookies and paid
> for them with a $100 bill.
>
> They received change for the $100 but when the girls went to
> deposit the day's receipts they were told at the bank that the
> bill was counterfeit.



And there you have it: The real reason we need to keep the death penalty
around.

Puester wrote:
>
> The news reported that the troop would be bailed out by the
> local G.S. council, but today's report said there had been
> many donations made to the troop in excess of the $100 to
> help mitigate the scam.

Pretty clever scouts, to come up with
a scam like that! I wonder if they even
were girl scouts? :-)

Puester wrote:

> > One of the girls said the bill "didn't look right". It was faded and
> 1/4 inch shorter than the other bills they had in their till but the
> couple explained that away saying it had been through the wash.

Sounds like the basis for a new merit badge, Seller Beware. Add Buyer
Beware, too. With so much emphasis on providing a better real world
education, these days, I hope today's focus on money and money
management is much better and more practical.

In my day, I was given a great math education. Algebra, geometry, trig,
etc. Unfortunately, real world money matters like banking, credit,
interest, investments, and especially home ownership, were completely
absent/ignored. Kind of like teaching Home Economics without teaching
how to shop.

I hope to gawd it's not like this, now.

nb

notbob wrote:
>
> Puester wrote:
>
> > > One of the girls said the bill "didn't look right". It was faded and
> > 1/4 inch shorter than the other bills they had in their till but the
> > couple explained that away saying it had been through the wash.
>
> Sounds like the basis for a new merit badge, Seller Beware. Add Buyer
> Beware, too. With so much emphasis on providing a better real world
> education, these days, I hope today's focus on money and money
> management is much better and more practical.

Three-Card Monte Badge.
Multi-Level Marketing Badge.
This Car's Only Got 10,000 Miles On It Badge.
Gee, Officer, I've Only Had One Beer Badge.
I Just Stumbled Across This Interesting Web Site Badge.

Mark Thorson wrote:

> Three-Card Monte Badge.
> Multi-Level Marketing Badge.
> This Car's Only Got 10,000 Miles On It Badge.
> Gee, Officer, I've Only Had One Beer Badge.
> I Just Stumbled Across This Interesting Web Site Badge.

10 bucks a ride badge
LOL
--
Vilco
Mai guardare Trailer park Boys senza
qualcosa da bere a portata di mano

Mark Thorson wrote:
> notbob wrote:
>> Puester wrote:
>>
>>>> One of the girls said the bill "didn't look right". It was faded and
>>> 1/4 inch shorter than the other bills they had in their till but the
>>> couple explained that away saying it had been through the wash.
>> Sounds like the basis for a new merit badge, Seller Beware. Add Buyer
>> Beware, too. With so much emphasis on providing a better real world
>> education, these days, I hope today's focus on money and money
>> management is much better and more practical.
>
> Three-Card Monte Badge.
> Multi-Level Marketing Badge.
> This Car's Only Got 10,000 Miles On It Badge.
> Gee, Officer, I've Only Had One Beer Badge.
> I Just Stumbled Across This Interesting Web Site Badge.

We just got a bigger xxxx than yours badge.
We just got a more expensive xxxx than yours badge.
We got this because we owe it to ourselves badge.
We will pay for it somehow badge.
My time is much more important than yours badge.
I know how to run you over with my SUV if you are in my way badge.
It wasn't my fault badge.

"George" > wrote in message
. ..
> Mark Thorson wrote:
>> notbob wrote:
>>> Puester wrote:
>>>
>>>>> One of the girls said the bill "didn't look right". It was faded and
>>>> 1/4 inch shorter than the other bills they had in their till but the
>>>> couple explained that away saying it had been through the wash.
>>> Sounds like the basis for a new merit badge, Seller Beware. Add Buyer
>>> Beware, too. With so much emphasis on providing a better real world
>>> education, these days, I hope today's focus on money and money
>>> management is much better and more practical.
>>
>> Three-Card Monte Badge.
>> Multi-Level Marketing Badge.
>> This Car's Only Got 10,000 Miles On It Badge.
>> Gee, Officer, I've Only Had One Beer Badge.
>> I Just Stumbled Across This Interesting Web Site Badge.
>
> We just got a bigger xxxx than yours badge.
> We just got a more expensive xxxx than yours badge.
> We got this because we owe it to ourselves badge.
> We will pay for it somehow badge.
> My time is much more important than yours badge.
> I know how to run you over with my SUV if you are in my way badge.
> It wasn't my fault badge.

Harking back to yet another Jeopardy contestant (this time from a Teen
Tournament episode which aired last night), one kid said he was an Eagle
Scout and he got a merit badge for building four wheelchair accessible
flower planters at a retirement/nursing home. When asked if he built them
himself or had help he stated the Eagle Scouts are all about leadership and
delegation, so he delegated the labor and sat back and watched! What a sad,
sad commentary.

Jill

"notbob" > wrote in message
.. .
> Puester wrote:
>
>> > One of the girls said the bill "didn't look right". It was faded and
>> 1/4 inch shorter than the other bills they had in their till but the
>> couple explained that away saying it had been through the wash.
>
> Sounds like the basis for a new merit badge, Seller Beware. Add Buyer
> Beware, too. With so much emphasis on providing a better real world
> education, these days, I hope today's focus on money and money management
> is much better and more practical.
>
> In my day, I was given a great math education. Algebra, geometry, trig,
> etc. Unfortunately, real world money matters like banking, credit,
> interest, investments, and especially home ownership, were completely
> absent/ignored. Kind of like teaching Home Economics without teaching how
> to shop.
>
> I hope to gawd it's not like this, now.
>
> nb

This justifies all the guff my 15 year old took this past fall when he was
selling boy scout popcorn. He learned the hard way to get the orders paid
for up front because in years past the order-ers 'miraculously' forgot they
ordered, or wanted the product with a 'catch ya later' payment in mind.
This year, not only did he ask for the cash up front, but if they weren't
paying by check (preferred, made out to the troop, not him, so no
impropriety can be levied) he whipped out his trusty bill marking pen (looks
like a yellow highlighter) that can be bought at most office stores, and
checked the bills before accepting them. Sounds cold, but he wasn't stuck
paying for product he was either welched on or was given bogus money for.
-ginny

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Mark Thorson wrote:
>>> notbob wrote:
>>>> Puester wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> One of the girls said the bill "didn't look right". It was faded and
>>>>> 1/4 inch shorter than the other bills they had in their till but the
>>>>> couple explained that away saying it had been through the wash.
>>>> Sounds like the basis for a new merit badge, Seller Beware. Add Buyer
>>>> Beware, too. With so much emphasis on providing a better real world
>>>> education, these days, I hope today's focus on money and money
>>>> management is much better and more practical.
>>>
>>> Three-Card Monte Badge.
>>> Multi-Level Marketing Badge.
>>> This Car's Only Got 10,000 Miles On It Badge.
>>> Gee, Officer, I've Only Had One Beer Badge.
>>> I Just Stumbled Across This Interesting Web Site Badge.
>>
>> We just got a bigger xxxx than yours badge.
>> We just got a more expensive xxxx than yours badge.
>> We got this because we owe it to ourselves badge.
>> We will pay for it somehow badge.
>> My time is much more important than yours badge.
>> I know how to run you over with my SUV if you are in my way badge.
>> It wasn't my fault badge.
>
> Harking back to yet another Jeopardy contestant (this time from a Teen
> Tournament episode which aired last night), one kid said he was an Eagle
> Scout and he got a merit badge for building four wheelchair accessible
> flower planters at a retirement/nursing home. When asked if he built them
> himself or had help he stated the Eagle Scouts are all about leadership
> and delegation, so he delegated the labor and sat back and watched! What
> a sad, sad commentary.
>
> Jill


This is the write up given by the Boy Scouts regarding the Leadership aspect
of the Eagle Scout project:
Leadership
A couple of years ago, the title of the Eagle Scout Service Project was
changed to the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project. As stated in the BSA
Project Workbook, the real purpose of the Eagle Project is to give you an
opportunity to "demonstrate leadership of others." This is not to say that
service to the community is not important, just that leadership is equally
important.

Eagle Scouts are considered leaders, both in Scouting and in their
community. From the time you first joined Scouting, you have been receiving
leadership training. Hopefully you have been a member of a "boy led troop."
The Patrol Leaders Council (PLC), which is made up of the Senior Patrol
Leader, Patrol Leaders, and several other youth leaders should have been
leading your troop: planning the troop meetings and campouts. To reach the
ranks of Star, Life, and Eagle you have served in several leadership
positions in your troop and most likely served on the PLC. The Eagle
Project is just another chance for you to lead others in accomplishing a
significant goal for the benefit to your community. This time, you get to
choose the activity that interests you.

So how do you "demonstrate leadership of others?" First, you need to
establish yourself as the man in charge, the one who others look to for
guidance. This means you must take the initiative to chose your project,
coordinate it with the appropriate agency, and prepare the detail plan on
how to accomplish the goal. Don't wait for others to do your job. This
makes you the expert - the man with the answers. Others will come to you to
learn what they need to do to complete their task.

The leader coordinates all the activities of others to make sure the final
goal is reached. He considers everyone's talents and decides which tasks
each member is given, and then makes sure they understand their assignment.
The leader takes care of his team. He ensures they are safe and have
sufficient food and water to remain healthy and productive. He makes sure
they have the proper training and tools to do the job.

The leader is the problem solver. No matter how well a project is planned,
there will be things that don't go according to plan. When problems arise,
the project leader must consider all available information and make a
decision on how to resolve that problem. If it is not safe or practical to
force the project to follow the plan, he may need to revise the plan, or
even redefine the final goals. It is ok if your project doesn't reach all
the original goals, but you need to be able to explain why and how you
solved the problem.

A good leader will consider advice and suggestions from others, but in the
end, the leader must make the final decisions. A wise Scout would listen to
his troop's adult leaders and parents because they have many years of
experience to share. However, be careful that the well-meaning adults don't
lead your project. Beware of a common problem, which can easily hamper your
chance to lead. During projects where an adult's technical skill is
required, the adults often tend take over the leadership role. Both you and
your adult technical advisor should be very aware that YOU must lead the
project. Your advisor should only give you guidance and suggestions, but he
should not give direct instructions to your work crew, unless you have
directly assigned him to supervise a small team for a specific task. That
would deny you your leadership opportunity.

Hint: You and your advisor should talk this over and agree on a signal which
you will politely give him if you see him taking too much control of your
workers (which is a very natural thing for adults to do). For example you
may agree to say something like, "Mr. Coffman, would you like something to
drink?" He would get the point and agree that he was thirsty and go "get a
drink." No one else would know what you were doing, but later you and Mr.
Coffman can laugh about how "thirsty" he was on that workday.

The leader gets the job done and keeps the group together. Getting the job
done is fairly easy to understand. Keeping the group together means you
help the group enjoy the activity, feel appreciated for their efforts, and
earn a sense of pride in the accomplishments of the group. A leader
continually encourages his workers and gives them positive feedback on what
they do well. He helps his workers understand when they are doing something
that does not help the group accomplish the goal and he gives them guidance
on how to do the right thing. Often when workers aren't doing what the
leader wants, it is because the leader did not do a very good job of
explaining the task to them.

Leadership is a very rewarding activity. As the leader, you should feel a
sense of pride for what your team accomplished under your guidance. A
well-led activity is also rewarding for those who follow. In the end, the
goal is reached and the team feels good about their collective
accomplishment. The leadership skills you have learned in Scouting and
demonstrated in completing your Eagle Project will serve you throughout your
life.





-If I remember correctly when my eldest earned his, he had to document 150
hours of 'labor' with approximately a third of this being his. I heard
this boy on Jeopardy state all he did was sit and watch as well..........all
I can say is the Eagle Board of Review (the board of adults who approved the
boy advancing to Eagle) fell down in their responsibilities if this was what
he told them....I remember boys being denied for less.

-ginny

In article >,
"jmcquown" > wrote:

> Harking back to yet another Jeopardy contestant (this time from a Teen
> Tournament episode which aired last night), one kid said he was an Eagle
> Scout and he got a merit badge for building four wheelchair accessible
> flower planters at a retirement/nursing home. When asked if he built them
> himself or had help he stated the Eagle Scouts are all about leadership and
> delegation, so he delegated the labor and sat back and watched! What a sad,
> sad commentary.
>
> Jill

I salute the Scout, Jill, and chuck some cookie crumbs at you!

Rob teaches a Project Management class for engineers at the U and I was
curious for his take on your remarks. At first he said: "There are
simple projects and there are complex projects * this doesn't sound very
complex * maybe a two-person job." And I'm thinking to myself: "Huh?
This from a guy who makes a "project" out of damn near everything?"
I've listened to his class stories enough to know that A Project has to
be identified, defined, proposed, funded, monitored, and reported upon.

Then I got curious about the age of the Eagle Scout because my neighbor
kid achieved that award while he was still in high school. I did a
quick Google search; this link is the first hit. I invite you and
others to look at it:
http://www.scatacook.org/EagleParentInvolvement.htm

What was going through my mind was the fact that teen-agers as a broad
and general rule are not renowned for their thoughts and actions to
benefit anyone but themselves and their friends. That's a
generalization and I know it and I know a number of kids who don't fit
that. Another link,
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...AAivDSL&show=7,
has remarks from Eagle Scouts that say there's a lot of prep work
leading to the achievement of Eagle Scout status and that getting the
award is the result of at least a couple year's worth of concentration
and preparation.

I started reading bits from the first link above to Rob and when I read
the part about all the signatures that are required he laughed and said,
"If he has to get all those signatures, my hat's off to him!"
Signatures = Red Tape.

I'm guessing the kid had a grin on his face when he said he sat back and
watched the labor part of the project. As you describe it it sounds
like he was making a joke about what was involved. And he was likely
told that he had 5 seconds to answer Alex's questions about himself. If
he doesn't know jack about swinging a hammer or measuring twice and
cutting once, he's smart to assign the task to someone who does. If he
*does* know how to do those things, seems like he might have a teaching
opportunity in his sights.

To imply that the kid was lazy and got his award because of someone
else's sweat is, I think, short-sighted. Being a leader, supervisor,
boss, or small business owner usually means you are responsible ‹ and
there are too many people in our society who don't want to be
responsible * for themselves and their actions, or for seeing that
someone else's needs are met unless there's something in it for them.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com; pics of my no-knead bread posted
Laissez les bons temps rouler!

"Michael "Dog3"" > wrote in message
6.121...
> "Virginia Tadrzynski" > dropped this
> : in rec.food.cooking
>
>
>> This justifies all the guff my 15 year old took this past fall when he
>> was selling boy scout popcorn. He learned the hard way to get the
>> orders paid for up front because in years past the order-ers
>> 'miraculously' forgot they ordered, or wanted the product with a
>> 'catch ya later' payment in mind. This year, not only did he ask for
>> the cash up front, but if they weren't paying by check (preferred,
>> made out to the troop, not him, so no impropriety can be levied) he
>> whipped out his trusty bill marking pen (looks like a yellow
>> highlighter) that can be bought at most office stores, and checked the
>> bills before accepting them. Sounds cold, but he wasn't stuck paying
>> for product he was either welched on or was given bogus money for.
>> -ginny
>
> I won't buy the popcorn any more. Seems like they always sell the yellow
> popping kernels and I like the white much more. I'll buy the pizzas and
> I'll order a magazine subscription but I have 2 tins of the pop corn in
> the
> cupboard going to waste as it is.
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> "Ingredients as fresh as they were 27 years ago."
> - Slogan of the Biscuitville restaurant.
>
> To email - michael at lonergan dot us dot com


My complaint is $7.50 for a box of microwave popcorn I can get for less than
$3 at the grocery store. Unfortunately, the troop they younger is at only
does popcorn as their fundraiser. The older boy did popcorn and flower
bulbs, candy bars, hoagies, etc. this way if you didn't want to buy one
thing, you could always be counted on to buy another.
-ginny

"Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "jmcquown" > wrote:
>
>> Harking back to yet another Jeopardy contestant (this time from a Teen
>> Tournament episode which aired last night), one kid said he was an Eagle
>> Scout and he got a merit badge for building four wheelchair accessible
>> flower planters at a retirement/nursing home. When asked if he built
>> them
>> himself or had help he stated the Eagle Scouts are all about leadership
>> and
>> delegation, so he delegated the labor and sat back and watched! What a
>> sad,
>> sad commentary.
>>
>> Jill
>
> I salute the Scout, Jill, and chuck some cookie crumbs at you!
>
> Rob teaches a Project Management class for engineers at the U and I was
> curious for his take on your remarks. At first he said: "There are
> simple projects and there are complex projects * this doesn't sound very
> complex * maybe a two-person job." And I'm thinking to myself: "Huh?
> This from a guy who makes a "project" out of damn near everything?"
> I've listened to his class stories enough to know that A Project has to
> be identified, defined, proposed, funded, monitored, and reported upon.
>
> Then I got curious about the age of the Eagle Scout because my neighbor
> kid achieved that award while he was still in high school. I did a
> quick Google search; this link is the first hit. I invite you and
> others to look at it:
> http://www.scatacook.org/EagleParentInvolvement.htm
>
> What was going through my mind was the fact that teen-agers as a broad
> and general rule are not renowned for their thoughts and actions to
> benefit anyone but themselves and their friends. That's a
> generalization and I know it and I know a number of kids who don't fit
> that. Another link,
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...AAivDSL&show=7,
> has remarks from Eagle Scouts that say there's a lot of prep work
> leading to the achievement of Eagle Scout status and that getting the
> award is the result of at least a couple year's worth of concentration
> and preparation.
>
> I started reading bits from the first link above to Rob and when I read
> the part about all the signatures that are required he laughed and said,
> "If he has to get all those signatures, my hat's off to him!"
> Signatures = Red Tape.
>
> I'm guessing the kid had a grin on his face when he said he sat back and
> watched the labor part of the project. As you describe it it sounds
> like he was making a joke about what was involved. And he was likely
> told that he had 5 seconds to answer Alex's questions about himself. If
> he doesn't know jack about swinging a hammer or measuring twice and
> cutting once, he's smart to assign the task to someone who does. If he
> *does* know how to do those things, seems like he might have a teaching
> opportunity in his sights.
>
> To imply that the kid was lazy and got his award because of someone
> else's sweat is, I think, short-sighted. Being a leader, supervisor,
> boss, or small business owner usually means you are responsible < and
> there are too many people in our society who don't want to be
> responsible * for themselves and their actions, or for seeing that
> someone else's needs are met unless there's something in it for them.
> --
> -Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
> http://www.jamlady.eboard.com; pics of my no-knead bread posted
> Laissez les bons temps rouler!


I remember the hoops Joe had to jump through. He had to get his 'idea'
reviewed' and approved before he could even start planning anything. Then,
he got physically ill his senior year of high school and couldn't complete
the physical project he originally planned so he had to start all over again
from square one. He had to have it done, written up and turned in by his
18th birthday. He did, one day short!
-ginny

In article >, JoeSpareBedroom
> wrote:

> "Puester" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > In the weekend's news here (Denver area):
> >
> > A group of Girl Scouts was scammed while selling cookies at a
> > supermarket by a couple who bought a box of cookies and paid
> > for them with a $100 bill.
> >
> > They received change for the $100 but when the girls went to
> > deposit the day's receipts they were told at the bank that the
> > bill was counterfeit.
>

> And there you have it: The real reason we need to keep the death penalty
> around.

Cookieboarding might be more appropriate.

In article >,
"Virginia Tadrzynski" > wrote:

> "Melba's Jammin'" > wrote in message
> ...

> > I started reading bits from the first link above to Rob and when I read
> > the part about all the signatures that are required he laughed and said,
> > "If he has to get all those signatures, my hat's off to him!"
> > Signatures = Red Tape.

> I remember the hoops Joe had to jump through. He had to get his 'idea'
> reviewed' and approved before he could even start planning anything.

Note Rob's remark about getting signatures. . . .

> Then, he got physically ill his senior year of high school and
> couldn't complete the physical project he originally planned so he
> had to start all over again from square one. He had to have it done,
> written up and turned in by his 18th birthday. He did, one day
> short!

Good on him, Ginny. Has he lived up to the standards for being an Eagle
Scout? My neighbor kid hasn't done a real swell job of that in terms of
personal responsibility. I've learned his word is fairly worthless.

> -ginny

--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com;pics of my no-knead bread posted
Laissez les bons temps rouler!

In article >,
"Virginia Tadrzynski" > wrote:

> My complaint is $7.50 for a box of microwave popcorn I can get for less than
> $3 at the grocery store. Unfortunately, the troop they younger is at only
> does popcorn as their fundraiser. The older boy did popcorn and flower
> bulbs, candy bars, hoagies, etc. this way if you didn't want to buy one
> thing, you could always be counted on to buy another.
> -ginny


That's why they call it fundraising. :-) I think the sorry part is
that too often the soliciting organization doesn't get *all that much
money* from the sale of one unit -- so it's all about volume. When i
was Cookie Mom for our troop I was stunned to learn that the amount was
something like a quarter for the troop for each $2.25 box of cookies
sold. This was 28 years ago.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com;pics of my no-knead bread posted
Laissez les bons temps rouler!

notbob wrote:
> Puester wrote:
>
>> > One of the girls said the bill "didn't look right". It was faded and
>> 1/4 inch shorter than the other bills they had in their till but the
>> couple explained that away saying it had been through the wash.
>
> Sounds like the basis for a new merit badge, Seller Beware. Add Buyer
> Beware, too. With so much emphasis on providing a better real world
> education, these days, I hope today's focus on money and money
> management is much better and more practical.
>
> In my day, I was given a great math education. Algebra, geometry, trig,
> etc. Unfortunately, real world money matters like banking, credit,
> interest, investments, and especially home ownership, were completely
> absent/ignored. Kind of like teaching Home Economics without teaching
> how to shop.
>
> I hope to gawd it's not like this, now.
>
> nb


Nope. Most kids tdon't even get a great math education
because so
many of their elementary teachers don't have math ability so
high school
has to do a lot of remedial catch-up..

Money management in high school is ignored in favor of Business
Ed classes that teach marketing and accounting, but no Life
Skills.
Special Ed kids get Life Skills classes. :-(

gloria p

On 2008-02-21, Puester > wrote:

> many of their elementary teachers don't have math ability so

What the Hell are grade school teachers learning/teaching, then!?

Oops, I remember, now. English to illegals. Nevermind.


nb

notbob wrote:
> On 2008-02-21, Puester > wrote:
>
>> many of their elementary teachers don't have math ability so
>
> What the Hell are grade school teachers learning/teaching, then!?
>


We had a middle school teacher who told the kids that converting
fractions to decimals was soooooo easy:

1/3 = 30%
1/4 = 40%
1/6 = 16%
1/7 = 17%
1/8 = 18%

You get the picture.

When the high school science teachers (who had started
giving math
proficiency tests to the 9th graders) got together and
complained to
the middle school principal, as far as we know nothing happened.
So it was remedial math in 9th grade before they could start
to teach
the 9th grade science and math..

gloria p

On 2008-02-21, Puester > wrote:

> We had a middle school teacher who told the kids that converting
> fractions to decimals was soooooo easy:
>
> 1/3 = 30%
> 1/4 = 40%
> 1/6 = 16%
> 1/7 = 17%
> 1/8 = 18%
>
> You get the picture.

Yes, it's pathetic. Kids can learn math easily in 2nd-3rd grades.
Multiplication tables, the basis for all higher math should be taught by
third grade. It's simple rote learning requiring little or no effort by the
teacher.

I learned my times tables the Summer before 3rd grade. Here's how. Take a
sheet of paper with all the times tables on it, ones through twelves. Like
this:

1x1=1
1x2=2
1x3=3
etc.... (separate into groups, like one's, two's, three's, etc)

Give it to the child and tell them to copy it onto another clean sheet of
paper. Nothing more. Just copy it, number for number, once each day.
That's it. I gaurantee, within 4-6 wks, usually within a month, they will
have all those numbers burnt permanently into their brain pan for life.

It works flawlessly and is simplicity itself. It takes a little time the
first couple days, maybe half an hour. Not too long for a third grade
attention span. They will get tired of wasting so much time looking back
and forth from one paper to the other, they will start memorizing the
numbers, naturally, just to speed things up and be done with the hellish
task and get outside and play. By the third week, they are usually knocking
it out in 10-15 mins. When fully memorized, they don't even need the
original paper and can be done in 5-8 minutes. Worked for me and my
daughter and every kid I've ever seen use this method. Once a kid knows his
times tables, the battle is half won. This simple method should be required
in every school in the USA. If teachers can't do it, send 'em back to
remedial math or hand them a mop.

Another good math teaching method is to take all the kids bowling. They
haven't outlawed field trips, have they? Take them bowling for a day and
make them take turns keeping score. I took math all through K12 and jr
college. It wasn't easy for me. I had to work hard at it. I could do
quadradics and all the stuff, but put me on a bowling score sheet and I was
hopelessly lost within a couple frames. Took me awhile to learn to do those
numbers in my head and I was in my mid 20s. Great practice.


nb

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 23:45:06 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2008-02-21, Puester > wrote:
>
>> We had a middle school teacher who told the kids that converting
>> fractions to decimals was soooooo easy:
>>
>> 1/3 = 30%
>> 1/4 = 40%
>> 1/6 = 16%
>> 1/7 = 17%
>> 1/8 = 18%
>>
>> You get the picture.
>
>Yes, it's pathetic. Kids can learn math easily in 2nd-3rd grades.
>Multiplication tables, the basis for all higher math should be taught by
>third grade. It's simple rote learning requiring little or no effort by the
>teacher.
>
>I learned my times tables the Summer before 3rd grade. Here's how. Take a
>sheet of paper with all the times tables on it, ones through twelves. Like
>this:
>
>1x1=1
>1x2=2
>1x3=3
>etc.... (separate into groups, like one's, two's, three's, etc)
>
>Give it to the child and tell them to copy it onto another clean sheet of
>paper. Nothing more. Just copy it, number for number, once each day.
>That's it. I gaurantee, within 4-6 wks, usually within a month, they will
>have all those numbers burnt permanently into their brain pan for life.
>
>It works flawlessly and is simplicity itself. It takes a little time the
>first couple days, maybe half an hour. Not too long for a third grade
>attention span. They will get tired of wasting so much time looking back
>and forth from one paper to the other, they will start memorizing the
>numbers, naturally, just to speed things up and be done with the hellish
>task and get outside and play. By the third week, they are usually knocking
>it out in 10-15 mins. When fully memorized, they don't even need the
>original paper and can be done in 5-8 minutes. Worked for me and my
>daughter and every kid I've ever seen use this method. Once a kid knows his
>times tables, the battle is half won. This simple method should be required
>in every school in the USA. If teachers can't do it, send 'em back to
>remedial math or hand them a mop.
>
>Another good math teaching method is to take all the kids bowling. They
>haven't outlawed field trips, have they? Take them bowling for a day and
>make them take turns keeping score. I took math all through K12 and jr
>college. It wasn't easy for me. I had to work hard at it. I could do
>quadradics and all the stuff, but put me on a bowling score sheet and I was
>hopelessly lost within a couple frames. Took me awhile to learn to do those
>numbers in my head and I was in my mid 20s. Great practice.
>
>
>nb
>
When my younger son was in elementary school, every Friday morning
they had "Math Facts." All the students took part and timing was done
from the office. As a child mastered one set of problems they got a
new set.

My son worked at one of the fast food places when he was in college.
He complained to me the "the kids cannot make change. We have to give
them sheets with the correct change when they are working the drive
through window."

--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)

In article >,
notbob > wrote:


> Yes, it's pathetic. Kids can learn math easily in 2nd-3rd grades.
> Multiplication tables, the basis for all higher math should be taught by
> third grade. It's simple rote learning requiring little or no effort by the
> teacher.
>
> I learned my times tables the Summer before 3rd grade. Here's how. Take a
> sheet of paper with all the times tables on it, ones through twelves. Like
> this:
>
> 1x1=1
> 1x2=2
> 1x3=3
> etc.... (separate into groups, like one's, two's, three's, etc)
>
> Give it to the child and tell them to copy it onto another clean sheet of
> paper. Nothing more. Just copy it, number for number, once each day.
> That's it. I gaurantee, within 4-6 wks, usually within a month, they will
> have all those numbers burnt permanently into their brain pan for life.
>
> It works flawlessly and is simplicity itself. It takes a little time the
> first couple days, maybe half an hour. Not too long for a third grade
> attention span. They will get tired of wasting so much time looking back
> and forth from one paper to the other, they will start memorizing the
> numbers, naturally, just to speed things up and be done with the hellish
> task and get outside and play. By the third week, they are usually knocking
> it out in 10-15 mins. When fully memorized, they don't even need the
> original paper and can be done in 5-8 minutes. Worked for me and my
> daughter and every kid I've ever seen use this method. Once a kid knows his
> times tables, the battle is half won. This simple method should be required
> in every school in the USA.

My wife (and a lot of other people) call this "drill and kill". She has
been involved in choosing math curriculum for elementary schools. She
has also helped in the classroom to see what works and what doesn't.
The parents love "drill and kill". Some teachers love it. It is
certainly a necessary part of math education at that level. But when
the kids get a real life problem and don't know whether to add,
subtract, multiply or divide, they just can't apply those math facts
that they have learned.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:16:47 -0800, Dan Abel > wrote:

>My wife (and a lot of other people) call this "drill and kill". She has
>been involved in choosing math curriculum for elementary schools. She
>has also helped in the classroom to see what works and what doesn't.
>The parents love "drill and kill". Some teachers love it. It is
>certainly a necessary part of math education at that level. But when
>the kids get a real life problem and don't know whether to add,
>subtract, multiply or divide, they just can't apply those math facts
>that they have learned.

Unfortunately, there is whole sector that doesn't think for themselves
and.... it's *not* the teacher's fault. They come to school with
learned helplessness, which is reinforced daily by their out of school
experiences.


--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

Dan Abel wrote:

>
> My wife (and a lot of other people) call this "drill and kill". She has
> been involved in choosing math curriculum for elementary schools. She
> has also helped in the classroom to see what works and what doesn't.
> The parents love "drill and kill". Some teachers love it. It is
> certainly a necessary part of math education at that level. But when
> the kids get a real life problem and don't know whether to add,
> subtract, multiply or divide, they just can't apply those math facts
> that they have learned.
>


OTOH if all they learn is application, they don't have the
number skills
to find the right answer, even with a calculator. We find
way too many
engineers who have no ballparking skill at all when it comes
to answers.
They can't imagine if the calculation is right or wrong and
have no idea
if the right answer is closer to .05 0r .000005.

Drill and kill is the only way a kid will ever know whether
9 x 6 = 45,
54, or 106.

gloria p

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:30:41 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2008-02-21, Puester > wrote:
>
>> many of their elementary teachers don't have math ability so
>
>What the Hell are grade school teachers learning/teaching, then!?
>
>Oops, I remember, now. English to illegals. Nevermind.
>
>
>nb

oh noes!!!! white children are being forced out of elementary
schools!!!

your pal,
blake

In article >,
notbob > wrote:

> On 2008-02-21, Puester > wrote:
>
> > We had a middle school teacher who told the kids that converting
> > fractions to decimals was soooooo easy:
> >
> > 1/3 = 30%
> > 1/4 = 40%
> > 1/6 = 16%
> > 1/7 = 17%
> > 1/8 = 18%
> >
> > You get the picture.
>
> Yes, it's pathetic. Kids can learn math easily in 2nd-3rd grades.
> Multiplication tables, the basis for all higher math should be taught by
> third grade. It's simple rote learning requiring little or no effort by the
> teacher.
>
> I learned my times tables the Summer before 3rd grade. Here's how. Take a
> sheet of paper with all the times tables on it, ones through twelves. Like
> this:
>
> 1x1=1
> 1x2=2
> 1x3=3
> etc.... (separate into groups, like one's, two's, three's, etc)
>
> Give it to the child and tell them to copy it onto another clean sheet of
> paper. Nothing more. Just copy it, number for number, once each day.
> That's it. I gaurantee, within 4-6 wks, usually within a month, they will
> have all those numbers burnt permanently into their brain pan for life.
>
> It works flawlessly and is simplicity itself. It takes a little time the
> first couple days, maybe half an hour. Not too long for a third grade
> attention span. They will get tired of wasting so much time looking back
> and forth from one paper to the other, they will start memorizing the
> numbers, naturally, just to speed things up and be done with the hellish
> task and get outside and play. By the third week, they are usually knocking
> it out in 10-15 mins. When fully memorized, they don't even need the
> original paper and can be done in 5-8 minutes. Worked for me and my
> daughter and every kid I've ever seen use this method. Once a kid knows his
> times tables, the battle is half won. This simple method should be required
> in every school in the USA. If teachers can't do it, send 'em back to
> remedial math or hand them a mop.
>
> Another good math teaching method is to take all the kids bowling. They
> haven't outlawed field trips, have they? Take them bowling for a day and
> make them take turns keeping score. I took math all through K12 and jr
> college. It wasn't easy for me. I had to work hard at it. I could do
> quadradics and all the stuff, but put me on a bowling score sheet and I was
> hopelessly lost within a couple frames. Took me awhile to learn to do those
> numbers in my head and I was in my mid 20s. Great practice.
>
>
> nb

It's pretty easy if you throw strikes, nb.
30-60-90-120-150-180-210-240-270-300 -- cinchy.
"-0)
-B
(I like the copying exercise, too. Will keep that in mind when Small
Child is a couple years older.) You can do quadratics and can't score
bowling. I can calculate restaurant tips from across the table (reading
the receipt upside down) before HWSNBN can get his tip chart out of his
wallet. Now that I think about it, he hasn't pulled out that card in a
long time. He just looks at me and says, "How much should the tip be?"


--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com;pics of my no-knead bread posted
Laissez les bons temps rouler!

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

> (I like the copying exercise, too. Will keep that in mind when Small
> Child is a couple years older.) You can do quadratics and can't score
> bowling. I can calculate restaurant tips from across the table (reading
> the receipt upside down) before HWSNBN can get his tip chart out of his
> wallet. Now that I think about it, he hasn't pulled out that card in a
> long time. He just looks at me and says, "How much should the tip be?"
>
I showed my daughter that a quick start to the tip (assuming all was
well) is to double the restaurant tax listed on the receipt, then round
up. That gets her in the ballpark quickly enough without much effort.

On 2008-02-22, Dan Abel > wrote:


> The parents love "drill and kill". Some teachers love it. It is
> certainly a necessary part of math education at that level.

You better believe it. Call it what you like, it's immutable fact not open
to tinkering or philosophical debate.

> the kids get a real life problem and don't know whether to add,
> subtract, multiply or divide, they just can't apply those math facts
> that they have learned.

Learning 1+1=2 and 8x8=64 are constants. They do no change. If children
learn that and still don't know whether to "add, subtract, multiply or
divide", there is something seriously wrong with the math program. I saw
when "new math", a dangerous detour in basic math, hit the scene. Whatta
load of crap. It helped no one and delayed learning basic math. The whole
time I was taking calculus and physics and chemistry in college, every
single math problem I encountered reduce right back down to the basic fact
that 1+1=2 and 8x8=64 and heaven help you if your $200 whiz bang calculator
went dead. You better hope to god the "drill n' kill" you did in the 3rd
grade is still in good working order. I know it worked for me.

If there is anything wrong with today's schools, it's that wrong-headed
educators keep trying to improve that which needs no improvement. The
alphabet and the numbers from 1-10 are just that and no more. You can't use
them if you don't know them. I worked with a lot of foreign educated
engineers and it became quickly apparent which had been taught extensively
by rote teaching methods, so I'm well aware of the shortcomings of relying
on such an approach. OTOH, there are areas of learning where it is
unsurpassable. I think we've spent so much time trying to improve the
system, we've hamstrung a couple generations of people in the US. Educators
snivel they are tired of hearing "let's get back to basics". Well, the
basics are called the basics for very good reason.

nb

On 2008-02-22, Janet Baraclough > wrote:
> You're mistaken.
>
> Unless a kid actually understands the meaning of " 9 x 6 = 45", he
> won't recognise why the answers to "9+6" or " 9-6", are not "45".
> Drilling by rote can't teach that.

And you are being ridiculous. No one is saying, "Here kid, memorize these
numbers" without teaching them what they mean. That is absurd on the face of
it. But, once they reach a level of knowledge to know what multiplication
is, it can only benefit them to memorize the times tables and I was only
pointing out a rather painless method.

What you got? A geopolitical discussion on the sex life of an amoeba and
its relationship to the Democratic National Party while the moon is in the
seventh house and how on a clear day 8 multiplied by its mirror image may in
fact render a product that looks very similar to the sum of 55 added to
nine? Get real. Memorize the damn tables and be done with it, ferchrysakes.


nb







>
> It would be pretty simple to teach any kid to memorise how to copy
> out a list of 12 words in
> Sanskrit. But unless you teach him the meaning of those words, AND how
> to use that vocabulary in his own language, the ability to reproduce 12
> words in Sanskrit has no educational value.
>
> The teacher who didn't comprehend percentage, is a perfect example.
>
> Janet.

On 2008-02-22, Puester > wrote:

> OTOH if all they learn is application, they don't have the
> number skills
> to find the right answer, even with a calculator. We find
> way too many
> engineers who have no ballparking skill at all when it comes
> to answers.
> They can't imagine if the calculation is right or wrong and
> have no idea
> if the right answer is closer to .05 0r .000005.
>
> Drill and kill is the only way a kid will ever know whether
> 9 x 6 = 45,
> 54, or 106.

sic 'em, pue!

nb

Melba's Jammin' wrote:


> I can calculate restaurant tips from across the table (reading
> the receipt upside down) before HWSNBN can get his tip chart out of his
> wallet. Now that I think about it, he hasn't pulled out that card in a
> long time. He just looks at me and says, "How much should the tip be?"
>
>

Hey, me too! I thought engineers could do all that stuff in
their heads,
but not necessarily.

gloria p

In article >,
Goomba38 > wrote:

> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>
> > (I like the copying exercise, too. Will keep that in mind when Small
> > Child is a couple years older.) You can do quadratics and can't score
> > bowling. I can calculate restaurant tips from across the table (reading
> > the receipt upside down) before HWSNBN can get his tip chart out of his
> > wallet. Now that I think about it, he hasn't pulled out that card in a
> > long time. He just looks at me and says, "How much should the tip be?"
> >
> I showed my daughter that a quick start to the tip (assuming all was
> well) is to double the restaurant tax listed on the receipt, then round
> up. That gets her in the ballpark quickly enough without much effort.


Ah, yes, but *I* can adjust that quickly so that the total is a round
number. <brushes nails on chest>
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com;pics of my no-knead bread posted
Laissez les bons temps rouler!

"Goomba38" > wrote

> I showed my daughter that a quick start to the tip (assuming all was well)
> is to double the restaurant tax listed on the receipt, then round up. That
> gets her in the ballpark quickly enough without much effort.

I used to triple the sales tax to get the general idea, now I just
figure 10% and double that ... it gets me in the neighborhood.

nancy

In article >,
Janet Baraclough > wrote:

> The message >
> from Melba's Jammin' > contains these words:
>
> I can calculate restaurant tips from across the table (reading
> > the receipt upside down) before HWSNBN can get his tip chart out of his
> > wallet.
>
> How variable is tipping, that anyone would need a chart?
>
> Janet

You would need to know HWSNBN, perhaps. It's a personality trait more
than a variance in tipping percentages. :-)

--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com;pics of my no-knead bread posted
Laissez les bons temps rouler!

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:42:43 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2008-02-22, Janet Baraclough > wrote:
>> You're mistaken.
>>
>> Unless a kid actually understands the meaning of " 9 x 6 = 45", he
>> won't recognise why the answers to "9+6" or " 9-6", are not "45".
>> Drilling by rote can't teach that.
>
>And you are being ridiculous. No one is saying, "Here kid, memorize these
>numbers" without teaching them what they mean. That is absurd on the face of
>it. But, once they reach a level of knowledge to know what multiplication
>is, it can only benefit them to memorize the times tables and I was only
>pointing out a rather painless method.
>
>What you got? A geopolitical discussion on the sex life of an amoeba and
>its relationship to the Democratic National Party while the moon is in the
>seventh house and how on a clear day 8 multiplied by its mirror image may in
>fact render a product that looks very similar to the sum of 55 added to
>nine? Get real. Memorize the damn tables and be done with it, ferchrysakes.
>
>
>nb
>

i still have trouble with my seven- and eight-times tables.

your pal,
blake

On 2008-02-23, blake murphy > wrote:

> i still have trouble with my seven- and eight-times tables.

HINT: 7x8 = 8x7

nb

On 2008-02-23, Janet Baraclough > wrote:
>
> Yes, they did. You must have missed this

Context, dearie, context.

nb

Melba's Jammin' wrote:

>> I showed my daughter that a quick start to the tip (assuming all was
>> well) is to double the restaurant tax listed on the receipt, then round
>> up. That gets her in the ballpark quickly enough without much effort.
>
>
> Ah, yes, but *I* can adjust that quickly so that the total is a round
> number. <brushes nails on chest>

Please take me to some quaint lil restaurant of your choosing and when
you pay *our* bill, show me your skills
Don't you want to come to Chicago in May for a day? I'm sure we could
find some good places to test your skills!