I've been reading that unglazed quarry tiles are a good cheap substitute
for a pizza stone. I was going to try baking a pie using a technique
which says to put the tiles/stone right on the bottom of the oven and
bake the pie on top. However, I'm worried the tiles will scratch the
interior of my oven. This is probably a stupid question, but can I put
something less abrasive under them in the oven (and what would that be?)
or does that basically defeat the point as they have to be directly on
the surface of the oven? OR, will it work just fine if I put the tiles
on the lowest rack?

Ham Sulu wrote:
> I've been reading that unglazed quarry tiles are a good cheap substitute
> for a pizza stone.

This is a great question. Add another person who would love to hear
some answers.

Ham Sulu wrote:
> interior of my oven. This is probably a stupid question, but can I put
> something less abrasive under them in the oven (and what would that be?)

EZ-Foil makes an oven liner. When I used tiles, I put them on the liner
and put the whole deal on a rack in the lowest position of the oven.

June

On 2006-09-11, Ham Sulu > wrote:
> I've been reading that unglazed quarry tiles are a good cheap substitute
> for a pizza stone.

That's what Julia Child used. She put them in low sided baking sheet.

nb

Ham Sulu wrote:
> I've been reading that unglazed quarry tiles are a good cheap substitute
> for a pizza stone. I was going to try baking a pie using a technique
> which says to put the tiles/stone right on the bottom of the oven and
> bake the pie on top. However, I'm worried the tiles will scratch the
> interior of my oven. This is probably a stupid question, but can I put
> something less abrasive under them in the oven (and what would that be?)
> or does that basically defeat the point as they have to be directly on
> the surface of the oven? OR, will it work just fine if I put the tiles
> on the lowest rack?

Tiles don't go on the oven bottom, they go on a rack or on a
baking sheet. I put mine in a low-sided baking sheet - had
the tiles cut to fit. Post that recipe. It sounds like a bad
idea all around.

I use mine on the top rack level and pre-heat the stone in
the oven pre-heat mode where the broiler and the bottom
elements are both on. I heat to an oven temp of 550F.
There's some conjecture about whether the overhead radiant
element actually heats the tiles to a higher temp than the
air in the oven.

Slide the pizza or foccacia or whatever off a pizza peel
right onto the very hot stone/tile.

I can't imagine doing a pie on a stone or tiles. Too hot
against the bottom of the plate. Air moving against it will
transfer only a limited amount of heat to the plate. Tiles
and stones will transfer a great deal more heat in the same
time and I'd be afraid of burning it. I've never heard of
anything like that, but it's not the first thing I didn't
know about.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:

>
> I can't imagine doing a pie on a stone or tiles. Too hot against the
> bottom of the plate. Air moving against it will transfer only a limited
> amount of heat to the plate. Tiles and stones will transfer a great deal
> more heat in the same time and I'd be afraid of burning it. I've never
> heard of anything like that, but it's not the first thing I didn't know
> about.

Here are a couple of links. I did some searching around and I think the
recipe that was sent to me was a bit off about where to put the
stones/tiles as these links say to put them on the bottom rack. Should
have done some research first and even the experts and experimenters differ.

http://www.usaweekend.com/01_issues/...cooksmart.html

"Baking on the bottom oven rack just wasn't enough to brown the pie
bottom. I also tried baking it directly on the oven floor, but browning
was uneven and part of the pie was borderline burned in just 20 minutes.

Ever since testing bread and pizza for my book The Perfect Recipe, I've
lined my oven rack with unglazed quarry tiles. In The Pastry Bible,
baking expert Rose Levy Beranbaum suggests cooking pies on a pizza stone
to improve the bottom crust. Because I don't own a pizza stone, I tried
four 9-inch unglazed quarry tiles (purchased at Home Depot for about 55
cents apiece), preheated on the bottom rack for about 30 minutes. It
worked. The bottom crust browned beautifully."


--
Original citation from Rose Levy Beranbaum author of the The Pie &
Pastry Bible:
http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/20...own_botto.html

"i bake the pie directly on the floor of the oven for the first 20
minutes of baking and then raise it to the bottom shelf. different ovens
bake differently so you may need to leave it on the floor of the oven
for a longer time. the best way to find out is to use a pyrex plate the
first time you do this so you can see through it and gauge when
sufficient browning has taken place. if your oven is electric and has
coils on the bottom, the best alternative is to use a baking stone on
the lowest shelf and preheat the oven for at least 30 minutes to ensure
that it is heated fully."

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:03:31 -0700, Ham Sulu >
wrote:

>I've been reading that unglazed quarry tiles are a good cheap substitute
>for a pizza stone. I was going to try baking a pie using a technique
>which says to put the tiles/stone right on the bottom of the oven and
>bake the pie on top. However, I'm worried the tiles will scratch the
>interior of my oven. This is probably a stupid question, but can I put
>something less abrasive under them in the oven (and what would that be?)
>or does that basically defeat the point as they have to be directly on
>the surface of the oven? OR, will it work just fine if I put the tiles
>on the lowest rack?

tiles go on a rack, not the oven floor.

"Ham Sulu" > wrote in message
...
> I've been reading that unglazed quarry tiles are a good cheap substitute
> for a pizza stone. I was going to try baking a pie using a technique
> which says to put the tiles/stone right on the bottom of the oven and bake
> the pie on top. However, I'm worried the tiles will scratch the interior
> of my oven. This is probably a stupid question, but can I put something
> less abrasive under them in the oven (and what would that be?) or does
> that basically defeat the point as they have to be directly on the surface
> of the oven? OR, will it work just fine if I put the tiles on the lowest
> rack?

Where your tiles/baking stone will serve you best depends upon how your oven
heats and where it's hot/cold spots are. I've seen many recommendations for
putting the baking stone on the floor of the oven and leaving it there.
I've never done this as I have an electric oven with a coil on the oven
floor. I've found, however, for my oven, that I must use the baking stone
on the second rack position from the bottom (5 rack positions) to avoid
burned bottom bread crusts and also to avoid interfering with the oven heat
circulation. Others are successful with a bottom rack position and still
others have to go a little higher. If you go higher, you may find that the
top of whatever you are baking may become too brown . You are going to have
to experiment with placement to see where it works best for you. Unglazed
quarry tiles are fine. It makes sense to me to place them in a pan for
convenience. Remember to pre-heat the tiles. That means to heat them for
at least a half hour -- maybe 45 minutes. The pre-heat setting on your oven
only heats the air in the oven. With the tiles you need to heat the stone
all the way through. Hope this helps
Janet

Ludmillia wrote:
> Ham Sulu wrote:
> > I've been reading that unglazed quarry tiles are a good cheap substitute
> > for a pizza stone.
>
> This is a great question. Add another person who would love to hear
> some answers.

Pizza stones are a waste of money, why would you want to emulate one.
You cannot turn a residential stove oven into a brick oven... the best
you can do to emulate the results of baking with the old fashioned
brick oven is to bake with perforated ovenware, of which there are many
configurations now available to home cooks. Even the vast majority of
pizzerias nowadays use the pizza screen rather than bake directly on
the stone liners of their pizza ovens... results are superior... next
time you order a pizza check the crust, and nine times out of ten
you'll find the impressions left by the screen.

In a real brick oven the source of heat (flame or electric elements) is
in *direct* contact with the oven's stone floor, ergo the stones become
much hotter than the oven's thermostat setting which controls only air
temperature and therefore are able to maintain that higher heat even
when cold dough is placed upon them, whereas pizza stones cool
substantially immediately and stay cool due to moisture emmision... if
it takes 30 minutes to preheat a pizza stone how long do you think it's
rate of rise is with a blob of wet cold pizza doufh slapped on it....
and baking near the top of a hot oven is certain to burn the top of
whatever is being baked while the dough in contact with the pizza stone
stays raw. With typical residential ovens air circulation is your
friend, use perforated pans, not pizza stones.

Sheldon

Ham Sulu wrote:
> I've been reading that unglazed quarry tiles are a good cheap substitute
> for a pizza stone.

A lot of cermic material slated for construction use is not food safe,
typically those tiles you speak of contian heavy metals like lead and
cadmium.... I'd strongly urge anyone using any ceramics in their
kitchen to buy a test kit and use it (they are available).... wasn't
too long ago a poster here bought a ceramic tagine, when advised to
have it tested it was found to contain lead.

Sheldon

Ham Sulu wrote:
> Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>>
>> I can't imagine doing a pie on a stone or tiles. Too hot against the
>> bottom of the plate. Air moving against it will transfer only a
>> limited amount of heat to the plate. Tiles and stones will transfer a
>> great deal more heat in the same time and I'd be afraid of burning it.
>> I've never heard of anything like that, but it's not the first thing I
>> didn't know about.
>
> Here are a couple of links. I did some searching around and I think the
> recipe that was sent to me was a bit off about where to put the
> stones/tiles as these links say to put them on the bottom rack. Should
> have done some research first and even the experts and experimenters
> differ.
>
> http://www.usaweekend.com/01_issues/...cooksmart.html

Pam does a lot of research for her recipes. Always has. She
used to work for Cook's Illustrated and do all those tests.
Nowadays, she "deconstructs" recipes and figures out what's
going on and why things happen. I'd trust what she says,
recognizing that she represents one way of getting there and
that there are others.

I suspect that using the heavy-duty aluminum sheet
materially affects the process.

Pastorio

> "Baking on the bottom oven rack just wasn't enough to brown the pie
> bottom. I also tried baking it directly on the oven floor, but browning
> was uneven and part of the pie was borderline burned in just 20 minutes.
>
> Ever since testing bread and pizza for my book The Perfect Recipe, I've
> lined my oven rack with unglazed quarry tiles. In The Pastry Bible,
> baking expert Rose Levy Beranbaum suggests cooking pies on a pizza stone
> to improve the bottom crust. Because I don't own a pizza stone, I tried
> four 9-inch unglazed quarry tiles (purchased at Home Depot for about 55
> cents apiece), preheated on the bottom rack for about 30 minutes. It
> worked. The bottom crust browned beautifully."
>
>
> --
> Original citation from Rose Levy Beranbaum author of the The Pie &
> Pastry Bible:
> http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/20...own_botto.html
>
>
> "i bake the pie directly on the floor of the oven for the first 20
> minutes of baking and then raise it to the bottom shelf. different ovens
> bake differently so you may need to leave it on the floor of the oven
> for a longer time. the best way to find out is to use a pyrex plate the
> first time you do this so you can see through it and gauge when
> sufficient browning has taken place. if your oven is electric and has
> coils on the bottom, the best alternative is to use a baking stone on
> the lowest shelf and preheat the oven for at least 30 minutes to ensure
> that it is heated fully."

Alan wrote:
>>> Bob (this one) wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can't imagine doing a pie on a stone or tiles. Too hot against the
>>>> bottom of the plate. Air moving against it will transfer only a
>>>> limited amount of heat to the plate. Tiles and stones will transfer a
>>>> great deal more heat in the same time and I'd be afraid of burning it.
>>>> I've never heard of anything like that, but it's not the first thing I
>>>> didn't know about.
>
> Well, it works!
>
> I have purchased a made-for-an-oven heavy stone thing which sits on
> the bottom shelf of the oven. (I'd much rather chance something made
> for the purpose than risk what might leech out of floor tile.)

It's leach and what's the difference if something does come
out when you're using a pie plate? And guessing about tiles
rather than actually finding out the facts seems in
character for this whole silly exercise.

> It helps the bottom of pies cook more than they used to. Both fruit
> pies and pizza.

Pizza I understand. I do it. But fruit pies simply don't
need a heat boost. If anything, keeping heat from scorching
the crust would seem to be more useful.

> Of course, you have to give it a good time to get heated up before
> you put the pie on it -- it has a good bit of mass and takes much
> longer than the oven to get up to temperature.
>
> However, I imagine an inventive cook could get much the same effect
> by putting the pie on a "heavy" metal cookie sheet, which would
> probably help conduct heat to the bottom of the pie pan.

Funny how commercial bakers don't play all those games. This
feels like that nonsense of turning your oven on to 500F and
putting a roast beef in and turning it off and leaving it
overnight and doing some damn thing or other next day. It's
adding needless complexity to what's essentially a very
simple process.

Pastorio

Alan wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 19:50:32 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>> Alan wrote:
>>>>> Bob (this one) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't imagine doing a pie on a stone or tiles. Too hot against the
>>>>>> bottom of the plate. Air moving against it will transfer only a
>>>>>> limited amount of heat to the plate. Tiles and stones will transfer a
>>>>>> great deal more heat in the same time and I'd be afraid of burning it.
>>>>>> I've never heard of anything like that, but it's not the first thing I
>>>>>> didn't know about.
>
>>> Well, it works!
>>>
>>> I have purchased a made-for-an-oven heavy stone thing which sits on
>>> the bottom shelf of the oven. (I'd much rather chance something made
>>> for the purpose than risk what might leech out of floor tile.)
>
>> It's leach and what's the difference if something does come
>> out when you're using a pie plate? And guessing about tiles
>> rather than actually finding out the facts seems in
>> character for this whole silly exercise.
>>
>>> It helps the bottom of pies cook more than they used to. Both fruit
>>> pies and pizza.
>
>> Pizza I understand. I do it. But fruit pies simply don't
>> need a heat boost. If anything, keeping heat from scorching
>> the crust would seem to be more useful.
>>
>>> Of course, you have to give it a good time to get heated up before
>>> you put the pie on it -- it has a good bit of mass and takes much
>>> longer than the oven to get up to temperature.
>>>
>>> However, I imagine an inventive cook could get much the same effect
>>> by putting the pie on a "heavy" metal cookie sheet, which would
>>> probably help conduct heat to the bottom of the pie pan.
>
>> Funny how commercial bakers don't play all those games. This
>> feels like that nonsense of turning your oven on to 500F and
>> putting a roast beef in and turning it off and leaving it
>> overnight and doing some damn thing or other next day. It's
>> adding needless complexity to what's essentially a very
>> simple process.
>>
>> Pastorio
>
> Well, thank you -- leach, not leech.
>
> However, don't pro bakers turn their ovens on in the morning and
> leave them on? Don't many of them bake their goods on oven shelves
> made of "stone" -- which they buy from professional companies that
> Actually Make Such Things For The Baking Industry?

Jayzuz what a package of conflated misunderstandings and
ignorance.

Commercial bakers nowadays have much more efficient ovens
than that romantic vision you're trying to foist off here.
Conveyor ovens and convection ovens are much more common
than anything made of "stone." My suggestion is, before
guessing what professional bakers do, to Actually Read A
Book About Commercial Baking You're Ignorantly Trying To
Imitate like maybe Wayne Gisslen's "Professional Baking"
before prattling on like this. It'll be way over your head,
but it has nice pictures.

> Does it REALLY seem so strange to try to duplicate that at home if
> you're a serious baker? (Which I'm not.)

Obviously, you're not. But it doesn't seem to stop you from
making these pronouncements that merely demonstrate just how
serious you aren't. You can't REALLY duplicate at home what
professionals can do. And maybe you shouldn't read
"Professional Baking" - it's an actual textbook that
explains stuff.

> What else can I say about pies -- Oh, in my efforts at baking pies,
> baking a pie on the stone made for a crisper, better-baked bottom
> crust. Really. That's why I said it.

Crisp bottom crust? Really? Crisp you say? Crisp bottom
crust. Imagine. Better-baked, doncha know. And all these
years and thousands of pies in my restaurants and country
clubs and we could have had better-baked pies. Who knew...?

And crisp bottom crust, you say...? On a pie...?

Here's a hoot for you. Tomorrow, I'm judging an apple pie
contest in Timberville, VA. here in the Shenandoah Valley
where lots and lots of apples grow. You might want to drop
by and ask the entrants who bakes their pies on stones. And
who has a crisp bottom crust on their fruit-filled pies.

Crisp bottom crust. Well, I never...

<LOL>

> As to baking directly on the stone, say with a pizza, I would rather
> not just put some unknown thing in my oven to bake my pizza on. I'd
> rather have it be supplied by a company which designed it and made it
> specifically for baking.

<LOL>

> Granted, they could be wrong. Or thieves. Or assholes who put bad
> chemicals in their stones.

<LOL>

> But, I'm not about to send my stone to a lab to determine that, so
> I'll kinda, sorta, trust a professional company that makes stones for
> bakers -- commercial, professional bakers -- rather than something
> that came out of some builder's quarry.

<LOL> What amazing assumptions. What dazzling ignorance.
What perfectly charming self-congratulations.

Quarry tiles don't come from quarries. They're made from
pressure-shaped clay and fired. Start from there. What's a
"builder's quarry?" Do you imagine that builders -
contractors - keep their own quarries?

Culinary "stones" are ceramics - softer than hard-fired
ceramic tiles, but still hard-burnt. Your moronic
apprehension about leaching and chemicals shows you know
nothing about the subject and, more important, haven't
really investigated anything about it.

Puhleeze. Go read about baking before offering all this
sagacity and bloviation. And about ceramics and pottery and
tiles and clay and...
<http://tinyurl.com/g6zdz>
<http://tinyurl.com/zstcg>
<http://www.metroceramics.com/pages/whatquarry.html>

Pastorio