Diabetic (alt.food.diabetic) This group is for the discussion of controlled-portion eating plans for the dietary management of diabetes.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Watson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fruit/Vegetable juice...

I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a combo
of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and including the
skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal bits and
pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the
experience.

Peter Watson
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alan
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:03:48 +1100, Peter Watson
> wrote:

|I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a combo
|of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and including the
|skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal bits and
|pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the
|experience.
|
|Peter Watson

Hi Peter

I presume by adult onset you mean type 2.

What do you mean by "effective"?

It would effectively spike me over 10 (180) at around an hour after I
drank it. I found that all juices spike me - morning, noon or night.
Additionally you lose a lot of fibre when you juice.

What are your Bgs like an hour after breakfast? Are you on diet and
exercise only, or are you using medication and/or insulin?


Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia.
Remove weight and carbs to email.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alan
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:03:48 +1100, Peter Watson
> wrote:

|I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a combo
|of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and including the
|skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal bits and
|pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the
|experience.
|
|Peter Watson

Hi Peter

I presume by adult onset you mean type 2.

What do you mean by "effective"?

It would effectively spike me over 10 (180) at around an hour after I
drank it. I found that all juices spike me - morning, noon or night.
Additionally you lose a lot of fibre when you juice.

What are your Bgs like an hour after breakfast? Are you on diet and
exercise only, or are you using medication and/or insulin?


Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia.
Remove weight and carbs to email.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Julie Bove
 
Posts: n/a
Default




"Peter Watson" > wrote in message
...
> I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a combo
> of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and including the
> skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal bits and
> pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the
> experience.


I'm not much of a juice drinker. Never was. Now if I do drink juice, I
drink a very small amount of Diet V-8 Splash. It is a fruit and vegetable
combo, but I think there is more vegetable than fruit. Nutritionally
speaking, I see no need for juice. Better to eat the whole fruit or veggie.

--
See my webpage:
http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jennifer
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What is your post drink blood glucose reading?

If it's in your goal range at 1 and 2 hours, then enjoy!

Jennifer


Peter Watson wrote:

> I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a combo
> of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and including the
> skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal bits and
> pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the
> experience.
>
> Peter Watson




  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Sherry
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Peter Watson > wrote in
:

> I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a
> combo of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and
> including the skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and
> seasonal bits and pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think
> and what is the experience.
>
> Peter Watson
>



That's a killer - esp with the pineapple. Love it but ooh, those
tropical fruit blood sugar spikes. No thanks.

Sherry
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alan
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:21:47 +1100, Peter Watson
> wrote:

|On 20/1/05 12:14 AM, in article ,
|"Alan" > wrote:
|
|> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:03:48 +1100, Peter Watson
|> > wrote:
|>
|> |I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a combo
|> |of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and including the
|> |skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal bits and
|> |pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the
|> |experience.
|> |
|> |Peter Watson
|>
|> Hi Peter
|>
|> I presume by adult onset you mean type 2.
|>
|> What do you mean by "effective"?
|>
|> It would effectively spike me over 10 (180) at around an hour after I
|> drank it. I found that all juices spike me - morning, noon or night.
|> Additionally you lose a lot of fibre when you juice.
|>
|> What are your Bgs like an hour after breakfast? Are you on diet and
|> exercise only, or are you using medication and/or insulin?
|>
|>
|> Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia.
|> Remove weight and carbs to email.
|
|Yes, adult onset I think does mean type 2.
|
|It makes me feel great.
|
|There is NO proof that fibre is lost, the fire is in the juice, just not as
|much as the whole fruit.
|
|This may come as some sort of shock, but I do not do all the testing and so
|forth, I stay on a diet and get lots of exercise. No medication. Since the
|initial diagnosis, I have had no further contact with any doctor. I found
|out as much as I could and elected to make changes in my life.
|
|Peter Watson

Hi Peter

It didn't come as a shock, as you already emailed me personally,
expressing your opinion quite clearly and forcefully.

I've said almost everything I wish to in my personal reply.

However, I did miss this point on fibre. When I used my juicer (before I
gave it away) what was all that stuff that stayed in the machine? It
looked pretty fibrous to me when I cleaned it.

I did a little research. The numbers are in Australian terms, with fibre
already seperate from carbs. And I realise other sites may give
slightly different numbers, and that you can improve them by adding some
fibre back after you juice, but you'd need to add a lot and I doubt that
the customers will drink it.

Just two examples of many, for oranges and carrots:

Valencia Orange
fibre 2%
carbs 8%
http://www.woolworths.com.au/resourc...uit_h-z_o3.pdf
Eat an average orange and you'll get about 13 gms carb and 3 gms of
fibre.

Orange Juice
fibre 0.10%
carbs 10%
http://www.carb-counter.org/fruit/se...t%20juice/0900
Drink a 250 ml glass and you'll get about 25 gms of carb and 0.3 gms of
fibre.

Carrot
fibre 3.10%
carbs 5.30%
http://www.woolworths.com.au/resourc...ges_a-g_c6.pdf
Eat a couple of average carrots and you'll get about 7 gms carb and 4
gms of fibre.

Carrot Juice
fibre 0.80%
carbs 8.50%
http://www.carb-counter.org/nutrition/11655
Drink a 250 ml glass and you'll get about 20 gms of carb and 2 gms of
fibre.


Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia.
Remove weight and carbs to email.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Julie Bove
 
Posts: n/a
Default




"Peter Watson" > wrote in message
...
> On 20/1/05 12:14 AM, in article

,
> "Alan" > wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:03:48 +1100, Peter Watson
> > > wrote:
> >
> > |I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a combo
> > |of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and including the
> > |skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal bits

and
> > |pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the
> > |experience.
> > |
> > |Peter Watson
> >
> > Hi Peter
> >
> > I presume by adult onset you mean type 2.
> >
> > What do you mean by "effective"?
> >
> > It would effectively spike me over 10 (180) at around an hour after I
> > drank it. I found that all juices spike me - morning, noon or night.
> > Additionally you lose a lot of fibre when you juice.
> >
> > What are your Bgs like an hour after breakfast? Are you on diet and
> > exercise only, or are you using medication and/or insulin?
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia.
> > Remove weight and carbs to email.

>
> Yes, adult onset I think does mean type 2.
>
> It makes me feel great.
>
> There is NO proof that fibre is lost, the fire is in the juice, just not

as
> much as the whole fruit.
>
> This may come as some sort of shock, but I do not do all the testing and

so
> forth, I stay on a diet and get lots of exercise. No medication. Since the
> initial diagnosis, I have had no further contact with any doctor. I found
> out as much as I could and elected to make changes in my life.


Not good! Not good at all! Any changes you have made may be moot because
you are not in contact with your Dr. and you do not test your BG. You could
be getting diabetic complications right now and you wouldn't even know it.
Also, fiber does not stay in the juice. Certainly there is proof! Have you
ever read a nutritional label. And juice isn't as filling as the whole
fruit.

--
See my webpage:
http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm


  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nicky
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Peter Watson" > wrote in message
...
> This may come as some sort of shock, but I do not do all the testing and
> so
> forth, I stay on a diet and get lots of exercise. No medication. Since the
> initial diagnosis, I have had no further contact with any doctor. I found
> out as much as I could and elected to make changes in my life.


Well that explains a lot. Peter, without testing, you have no idea what your
concoctions are doing to you. I really hope you're getting your annual
diabetic eye checks done, because that's what you're likely doing damage to,
swiftly followed by your kidneys.

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/5.7/<6 Weight 95/79/72Kg
1g Metformin, 75ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004




  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Sherry
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Peter Watson > wrote in
:

<snip>
>
> Yes, adult onset I think does mean type 2.
>
> It makes me feel great.
>
> There is NO proof that fibre is lost, the fire is in the juice, just
> not as much as the whole fruit.
>
> This may come as some sort of shock, but I do not do all the testing
> and so forth, I stay on a diet and get lots of exercise. No
> medication. Since the initial diagnosis, I have had no further
> contact with any doctor. I found out as much as I could and elected
> to make changes in my life.
>
> Peter Watson
>


weights based on edible portion. 100 grams of juice is about 1/2 cup
or less

100 grams raw pineapple = 12.63 grams of carbs, 1.4 grams of fiber

100 grams of pineapple juice = 13.78 grams of carbs, 0.2 grams of fiber

100 grams apple w/skin = 13.81 grams of carbs, 2.4 grams of fiber

100 grams of apple juice = 11.68 grams of carbs, 0.1 grams of fiber

Source: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/index.html

I would say this is a significant loss of fiber and an insignificant
amount in the juice.

If you truly are T2, are not testing and not following a prescribed
diet, and not getting adequate exercise, you are at high risk for
kidney disease, cardiovascular disease , blindness, neuropathy
resulting in non-healing ulcers and loss of toes, feet and/or legs, to
name just a few complications. Anyone with diabetes who doesn't monitor
the progress of the condition closely deserves the complications, IMHO!
(Those who monitor closely, eat correctly and exercise but still
develop the complications, *don't* deserve them!)

Personally, I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about
and that you're a menace to diabetics!

Sherry
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Thomas Muffaletto
 
Posts: n/a
Default

being you make no mention of how many carbs are in the drink
or your serving size I would feel kind of foolish to say it would spike me.
I do like to include a fast acting carb in all my meals like fruit and
veggies.
I do have juice but prefer the fiber in fruits.
What do I think?
well I prefer fruit but do have juice from time to time.
I usually bring a juice with me when I go to the doctor to drink
right after I have my blood taken. but I don't believe in
any special kinds of diets. just eating as healthy as my will power will
allow me.
I would go with the whole fruit.
Tom

--
Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
Your American Diabetes Association
http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp
See the Empire State Building Pose with my VTX
http://www.gantlet.000k2.com/

"Peter Watson" > wrote in message
...
>I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a combo of
>fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and including the skins
>... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal bits and pieces.
>I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the experience.
>
> Peter Watson



  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Thomas Muffaletto
 
Posts: n/a
Default



"Peter Watson" > wrote in message
...
>>

> Yes, adult onset I think does mean type 2.


i think that is more like a 95% chance that is it type 2.

>
> It makes me feel great.
>
> There is NO proof that fibre is lost, the fire is in the juice, just not
> as
> much as the whole fruit.


the fiber is separated from the juice.

>
> This may come as some sort of shock, but I do not do all the testing and
> so
> forth, I stay on a diet and get lots of exercise. No medication. Since the
> initial diagnosis, I have had no further contact with any doctor. I found
> out as much as I could and elected to make changes in my life.
>
> Peter Watson


I am not shocked Peter but if you are not getting a A1C test done
every 3 months how can you know you are doing any good?
not that I am saying A1C alone is good but please alteast go see what
it is.
Good luck
Tom
--
Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
Your American Diabetes Association
http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp
See the Empire State Building Pose with my VTX
http://www.gantlet.000k2.com/


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
eClare
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Peter Watson" > wrote in message
...


> I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a

combo

You were diagnosed within the past year and may be in the Honeymoon
period like I was.

> of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and

including the
> skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal

bits and
> pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the
> experience.
>
> Peter Watson

My experience IS, ......... is that during the first year of my
diagnosis of T2 diabetes, I thought I was fortunate in that I had to
do very little other than get some exercise and somewhat watch what
I ate in order to keep my BG readings under 7.0 (126mg/dl) I also
lost some weight from eating healthier. I thought that this small
change in lifestyle wasn't going to be that hard to do, right?
WRONG! I have since found out that I was in the honeymoon period
that is referred to now and then on the alt.support.diabetes list.
After that first year it became harder and harder to maintain any
reading under 10.0 (180mg/dl) let alone 7.0 (which I have since
learned is still much too high).
Even if I hadn't been testing regularly I would have known that
something wasn't right because I started feeling like %$#@. and
because I go for regular Hba1c tests I learned that my BG levels
were rising although I was eating healthy.
So you may think that your juicing is doing you good but I am afraid
that it isn't going to last and you may be doing irreversible harm
to your kidneys by not keeping in touch with your doctor.

Thankfully I have received very good advice on the a.s.d list and I
am slowly getting my BG readings back down but still need to get
them down more and it's not easy.
eClare






  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Peter Watson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 28/1/05 3:43 AM, in article 4T8Kd.189994$6l.13674@pd7tw2no, "eClare"
> wrote:

>
> "Peter Watson" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>> I was diagn. adult onset diabetic last year, I have been using a

> combo
>
> You were diagnosed within the past year and may be in the Honeymoon
> period like I was.
>
>> of fruit and vegetable juice each morning, made fresh and

> including the
>> skins ... carrot, celery, ginger, apple, pineapple and seasonal

> bits and
>> pieces. I find it effective/ What do others think and what is the
>> experience.
>>
>> Peter Watson

> My experience IS, ......... is that during the first year of my
> diagnosis of T2 diabetes, I thought I was fortunate in that I had to
> do very little other than get some exercise and somewhat watch what
> I ate in order to keep my BG readings under 7.0 (126mg/dl) I also
> lost some weight from eating healthier. I thought that this small
> change in lifestyle wasn't going to be that hard to do, right?
> WRONG! I have since found out that I was in the honeymoon period
> that is referred to now and then on the alt.support.diabetes list.
> After that first year it became harder and harder to maintain any
> reading under 10.0 (180mg/dl) let alone 7.0 (which I have since
> learned is still much too high).
> Even if I hadn't been testing regularly I would have known that
> something wasn't right because I started feeling like %$#@. and
> because I go for regular Hba1c tests I learned that my BG levels
> were rising although I was eating healthy.
> So you may think that your juicing is doing you good but I am afraid
> that it isn't going to last and you may be doing irreversible harm
> to your kidneys by not keeping in touch with your doctor.
>
> Thankfully I have received very good advice on the a.s.d list and I
> am slowly getting my BG readings back down but still need to get
> them down more and it's not easy.
> eClare
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thank for the advice... I have been diagnosed now for two years, I do not
feal like shit, I in fact am (apparently) healthy and live a very active and
full life. I should perhaps catagorise a bit, I do eat a very low carb diet,
I watch everything that I eat, I don't drink, don't smoke, swim 3 times a
week and bike ride another. I am very very careful. So I do listen and pay
attention to all that is said. What I would like to explore is 'other'
attitudes and regimes. For example there is a suggestion that T2 can
manifest as 'hysterical' diabetes, so I wonder what the importance of stress
is to diabetes. I also think that there is a place in the whole debate for
'alternative' therapies and yet one never heras about them. My research has
shown that juice has played a part in the treatment of diabetes in the past.

So perhaps I am a work in progress, I do some testing, just urine and they
are reading clear at the moment when in the past they have not.

Good luck with your health and happiness.

Peter Watson



  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nicky
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Peter Watson" > wrote in message
...
> So perhaps I am a work in progress, I do some testing, just urine and they
> are reading clear at the moment when in the past they have not.


Peter, by the time you're spilling sufficient glucose into your urine to
measure, you're also leaking glucose into your eyes.

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/5.7/<6 Weight 95/78/72Kg
1g Metformin, 87.5ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Sherry
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Peter Watson > wrote in
:

<snip>
>> Nicky.

> You have just epitomised one of the things that I despise about this
> whole issue. Fear and hysteria. I am not afraid of dying at all, but
> I dammed afraid of not living. This thing becomes a juggernaught of
> stupendous proportions that invades and consumes all in its path.
> There is need for a balance and I never see that, never.



I don't have a fear of dying either. I do have a fear of living blind,
on dialysis, half a person due to stroke or with my feet or even legs
lopped off due to non-healing ulcers. These are all *preventable*
complications of diabetes - *IF* we control the disease with eating
right, exercising and using our medications.

Sherry
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tiger Lily
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Peter Watson" <.net.au> wrote in message news.au...

> You have just epitomised one of the things that I despise about this whole
> issue. Fear and hysteria. I am not afraid of dying at all, but I dammed
> afraid of not living. This thing becomes a juggernaught of stupendous
> proportions that invades and consumes all in its path. There is need for a
> balance and I never see that, never.
>


Peter........ look up the glycemic index of "juice" over the glycemic index
of each fruit/veggie that you make your juice out of

then look at how much juice you can drink versus how much fruit you can have

for me it's a choice of volume (the whole product) versus lack of volume
(the juice)

this is not fear and hysteria...... it's a matter of choice

ps...... do you test your bg levels 1 hour after your juice to see what
impact the juice has for you???....... check the Joslin web site for
'recommended bg levels'

take care
kate
--
Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet
/server irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk
More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/
I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience.
Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be
an expensive teacher.


  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Priscilla Ballou
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
"Tiger Lily" > wrote:

> "Peter Watson" <.net.au> wrote in message news.au...
>
> > You have just epitomised one of the things that I despise about this whole
> > issue. Fear and hysteria. I am not afraid of dying at all, but I dammed
> > afraid of not living. This thing becomes a juggernaught of stupendous
> > proportions that invades and consumes all in its path. There is need for a
> > balance and I never see that, never.
> >

>
> Peter........ look up the glycemic index of "juice" over the glycemic index
> of each fruit/veggie that you make your juice out of
>
> then look at how much juice you can drink versus how much fruit you can have
>
> for me it's a choice of volume (the whole product) versus lack of volume
> (the juice)
>
> this is not fear and hysteria...... it's a matter of choice
>
> ps...... do you test your bg levels 1 hour after your juice to see what
> impact the juice has for you???....... check the Joslin web site for
> 'recommended bg levels'


Kate, he's said he doesn't test at all.

Priscilla

--
"It is very, very dangerous to treat any human, lowest
of the low even, with contempt and arrogant whatever.
The Lord takes this kind of treatment very, very personal."
- QBaal in newsgroup alt.religion.christian.episcopal


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tiger Lily
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Priscilla Ballou" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Tiger Lily" > wrote:
>
> > "Peter Watson" <.net.au> wrote in message news.au...
> >
> > > You have just epitomised one of the things that I despise about this

whole
> > > issue. Fear and hysteria. I am not afraid of dying at all, but I

dammed
> > > afraid of not living. This thing becomes a juggernaught of stupendous
> > > proportions that invades and consumes all in its path. There is need

for a
> > > balance and I never see that, never.
> > >

> >
> > Peter........ look up the glycemic index of "juice" over the glycemic

index
> > of each fruit/veggie that you make your juice out of
> >
> > then look at how much juice you can drink versus how much fruit you can

have
> >
> > for me it's a choice of volume (the whole product) versus lack of volume
> > (the juice)
> >
> > this is not fear and hysteria...... it's a matter of choice
> >
> > ps...... do you test your bg levels 1 hour after your juice to see what
> > impact the juice has for you???....... check the Joslin web site for
> > 'recommended bg levels'

>
> Kate, he's said he doesn't test at all.
>
> Priscilla


figures....... dead man walking....... hopefully the stroke doesn't leave
him semi-paralysed and a burden to his family

sigh


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
None Given
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Tiger Lily" > wrote in message
...
>
> ps...... do you test your bg levels 1 hour after your juice to see what
> impact the juice has for you???....... check the Joslin web site for
> 'recommended bg levels'



Since we can use juice to treat a hypo, then retest in 15 minutes, 15
minutes is when I would test for the juice.

--
No Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes


  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Zamponia
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Peter Watson > wrote


> You have just epitomised one of the things that I despise about this whole
> issue. Fear and hysteria. I am not afraid of dying at all, but I dammed
> afraid of not living.


If you are not afraid of dying, just keep doing what you are doing.
But, don't forget to make your will.




Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Vera Perks: Fruit and Vegetable Juice Tara Hafiza Cooking Equipment 2 06-12-2012 12:01 PM
Fruit and Vege juice PL[_5_] General Cooking 0 01-08-2010 07:22 AM
Tomato Vegetable Juice Lucky Recipes (moderated) 0 28-08-2007 05:23 PM
Four RECIPES: "Fruit Spreads" - use concentrated fruit juice for sweetener Melba's Jammin' Preserving 20 27-05-2006 12:51 AM
8 Puns - including frugal Vegetable Juice nemo Vegan 0 18-04-2006 03:51 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:14 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 FoodBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Food and drink"