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Old 12-10-2013, 10:55 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default What cereal to eat for Breakfast?


"Ozgirl" wrote in message
...


"Julie Bove" wrote in message ...


"Ozgirl" wrote in message
...


Karen, I think you may have mis-heard the doctor. Ketone bodies are
formed in the liver as a result of fat break-down - the fatty acids are
converted to ketones in the liver - first and fore-most (after depletion
of glucose stores). Conversion of muscle protein to ketones is way down
the track. If you have ever been on a weight loss diet or fasting (or
even normal overnight fasting) then you have produced ketone bodies.
FWIW, even when I was doing very low carb at the beginning of my type 2
diagnosis I only barely registered ketones on a pee stick. Most times
none showed up. Of course that doesn't mean I wasn't producing ketones,
just that the concentration wasn't high enough to register. Just like you
won't see glucose in your urine until your bg is quite high. The only
time you would start to lose muscle is when the body runs out of fuel
sources, as in prolonged starvation (as in little to no food - faster
obviously if one can't get water either), and protein in muscle becomes
the food source. The body is designed in a way to prevent muscle loss, we
need muscles to move. Low carbers are not starving and I seriously doubt
there are any low carbers out there that lower their protein levels
drastically. Eating plenty of protein ensures that the muscles are
maintained properly. There are protective metabolic processes in the
body that preserve the body for as long as possible, using muscle protein
as a very last resort. Once muscle catabolism starts you could probably
safely say you are close to death. Slim people will get to that point
faster.


I believe this bears out both what she said that the Dr. said and what my
CDE said.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7357509_ha...hydrates_.html

---------

Unfortunately that site is way off mark. This is the sort of stuff I read
in op-ed parts of the newspaper, not from scientific journals.
Biochemistry is rather easy to understand (and a very exciting branch of
science) and any search amongst publications like Pubmed etc will explain
the citric acid cycle (Kreb's cycle) as part of human metabolic pathways.


But it is exactly what is repeated again and again by Drs., dieticians and
CDEs. Have also read the same in countless books and magazines.

I just did a search on carbs and how many we need to eat in a day. I didn't
put up any links because nothing seemed to agree with anything else. There
were the staunch low carbers who claim that we don't need them. Then there
were those with a bunch of garbledeegook but never went beyond perhaps
giving a percentage and then saying that it was debatable. Then one gave a
range of numbers. Apparently you don't need many carbs if trying to lose
weight. But if not trying, you need a lot of them!


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Old 12-10-2013, 01:51 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic,alt.support.diabetes
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Default What cereal to eat for Breakfast?

On 10/11/2013 4:08 PM, Maya Zuiderweg wrote:
Na rijp beraad schreef Don Roberto :
On 10/9/2013 11:24 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/08/2013 05:54 AM, Don Roberto wrote:
Yes. And since there is a zero biological requirement for dietary
carbohydrate in human biology,

*Dr* Susan at her best...

Don,

She is correct. Various aboriginal and the Inuits
eat no fruit or veg's. As my GP says "there is no
scientific proof whatsoever that the consumption
of fat is harmful to humans."

The Inuits did not start getting "White Man's"
diseases until the "convenience stores" moved in.

Give her a break, she doesn't like to see people
hurt. Her heart is in the right place.



Bull!
Susan seems to be incapable of even considering anything that does not
fit her preconceived notions.
She badmouths and then allegedly killfiles anyone who does not agree
with her.
She then snipes at those she allegedly killfiled from behind her
alleged killfile.


I totally agree with you.
As a newbie I had very bad experiences with Susan.
She kept telling me how to eat with diabetes (low carb), but I have a
different kind of diabetes (chronic pancreatitis).
She had no knowledge at all about this disease but kept telling me what
to do.
With my disease it's of the utmost importance that my diet is based on
carbohydrates. Absolutely NO low carbing for me.
When it became clear that she didnt know diddlysquat, she killfiled me.
That was quite unnerving for a newbie:-(
But since killfiling does not always work (think of a reply to me by
another poster, who she had not killfiled), she kept on sniping - and
even suggesting that I did not even exist. (as if I could not read that,
very hurtful).


+1


In other words: neither her heart nor her brains are in the right place.

And the guy I know with the prosthetic legs,
the HUGE heart attack, the ruined kidneys, the
oxygen tank, still to this day tells me you
get to occasionally cheat on the diet. As I
said, give Susan a break.


Nope.


Please do.
M.



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Old 12-10-2013, 01:52 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic,alt.support.diabetes
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Default What cereal to eat for Breakfast?

On 10/11/2013 4:20 PM, Maya Zuiderweg wrote:
Maya Zuiderweg had uiteengezet :
Na rijp beraad schreef Don Roberto :
On 10/9/2013 11:24 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/08/2013 05:54 AM, Don Roberto wrote:
Yes. And since there is a zero biological requirement for dietary
carbohydrate in human biology,

*Dr* Susan at her best...

Don,

She is correct. Various aboriginal and the Inuits
eat no fruit or veg's. As my GP says "there is no
scientific proof whatsoever that the consumption
of fat is harmful to humans."

The Inuits did not start getting "White Man's"
diseases until the "convenience stores" moved in.

Give her a break, she doesn't like to see people
hurt. Her heart is in the right place.



Bull!
Susan seems to be incapable of even considering anything that does
not fit her preconceived notions.
She badmouths and then allegedly killfiles anyone who does not agree
with her.
She then snipes at those she allegedly killfiled from behind her
alleged killfile.


I totally agree with you.
As a newbie I had very bad experiences with Susan.
She kept telling me how to eat with diabetes (low carb), but I have a
different kind of diabetes (chronic pancreatitis).
She had no knowledge at all about this disease but kept telling me
what to do.
With my disease it's of the utmost importance that my diet is based on
carbohydrates. Absolutely NO low carbing for me.
When it became clear that she didnt know diddlysquat, she killfiled me.
That was quite unnerving for a newbie:-(
But since killfiling does not always work (think of a reply to me by
another poster, who she had not killfiled), she kept on sniping - and
even suggesting that I did not even exist. (as if I could not read
that, very hurtful).


In other words: neither her heart nor her brains are in the right place.

And the guy I know with the prosthetic legs,
the HUGE heart attack, the ruined kidneys, the
oxygen tank, still to this day tells me you
get to occasionally cheat on the diet. As I
said, give Susan a break.


Nope.


Please do.
M.


Please go on reacting like you do - was what I meant.
M.



I got you the first time.
And yes, I will go on reacting like I do.
In the words of Martin Luther:
Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders.

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Old 12-10-2013, 02:07 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic,alt.support.diabetes
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Default What cereal to eat for Breakfast?

On 10/11/2013 9:40 PM, Todd wrote:
On 10/11/2013 07:50 PM, Karen wrote:
Just this week I had a doctor tell me when you do not
get enough energy from carbs your body starts breaking down muscle and
then you spill ketones into the urine.


Hi Karen,

You (or someone else) is paying out the nose for those doctors.
Of course follow what they say.

Are you sure that is what the doctor said? If you google
"Inuit paradox" you will find that the Inuits don't have
any carbs at all. Carbs are not necessary for humans.
My GP laughed and said I was correct when I mentioned
the Inuits. (He was happy I am low carb, rather than constantly
trying to cheat the regimen. He does not like having to
amputate legs.)

Your liver will manufacture whatever glucose you need. And
you spill keytones into your urine when you fast (you feel
hungry when this happens). You also blow them out your
breath. You will smell like fruit punch. It comes from the
breakdown of your own stored fat. (Keyto sticks are
really cheap at Wal mart, if you want to monitor yourself.
They are over by the diabetic test strips.)

Here is a nice article on keytones:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies
"Ketone bodies are three different water-soluble,
biochemicals that are produced as by-products when
fatty acids are broken down in the liver for energy..."

I think possibly you heard your doctor wrong. Maybe
next time you see him, you should ask him about the Inuits
and where keytones come from.


Why do you address her like she is a child?

As for the Inuit - there isn't enough info about how their "no carb
diet" effected them as there weren't enough scientific studies done
before western eating habits caught up with them. What *is* known is
that Inuit life expectancy was lower than that of Westerners. Even in
the 21st century Canadians in general live 12 years longer than the Inuit.


If that is what he really
said, you may wish to do some research on your own.


Perhaps you should take your own advise:
Start he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-carbohydrate_diet

There is very little evidence that a no carb diet does no harm, but
plenty that it does, especially in the long run.

(I would get another doctor, but that is only me.)
But, I think you heard him wrong: it is a major screw up.

And, when I said "learn to cook", I meant as/for a diabetic.
If your diabetes is such, and we all have our own personalized
diabetes, that you can eat the modern diet then more
power to you. All I can say is that if you go back to
Paleo, you will probably feel better and your diabetics
will possibly be easier to handle. Perhaps not.

And if you can eat high carb, this is probably not
the best place to publish your recipes. There is a
really nice cooking group for regular folks too (T0's).

And I only kill file nasty people who like to pick fights.
So, you are not kill filed. People can disagree with each
other without being disagreeable. It is actually fun to
learn from others. Let us start over. Hello, my name is
Todd. I am a NIDDM (non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus
or non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetic). I am currently
drug free and hope I never have to go on drugs again.
I control my T2/NIDDM with diet, natural medicine, and
fishing (exercise that is fun). I love to cook diabetic/Paleo.

Now your turn. I am Karen ...

-T




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Old 12-10-2013, 06:29 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default What cereal to eat for Breakfast?

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 21:40:30 -0700, in alt.food.diabetic, Todd
wrote:

On 10/11/2013 07:50 PM, Karen wrote:
Just this week I had a doctor tell me when you do not
get enough energy from carbs your body starts breaking down muscle and
then you spill ketones into the urine.


Hi Karen,

You (or someone else) is paying out the nose for those doctors.
Of course follow what they say.

Are you sure that is what the doctor said? If you google
"Inuit paradox" you will find that the Inuits don't have
any carbs at all. Carbs are not necessary for humans.
My GP laughed and said I was correct when I mentioned
the Inuits. (He was happy I am low carb, rather than constantly
trying to cheat the regimen. He does not like having to
amputate legs.)

Your liver will manufacture whatever glucose you need. And
you spill keytones into your urine when you fast (you feel
hungry when this happens). You also blow them out your
breath. You will smell like fruit punch. It comes from the
breakdown of your own stored fat. (Keyto sticks are
really cheap at Wal mart, if you want to monitor yourself.
They are over by the diabetic test strips.)

Here is a nice article on keytones:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies
"Ketone bodies are three different water-soluble,
biochemicals that are produced as by-products when
fatty acids are broken down in the liver for energy..."

I think possibly you heard your doctor wrong. Maybe
next time you see him, you should ask him about the Inuits
and where keytones come from. If that is what he really
said, you may wish to do some research on your own.
(I would get another doctor, but that is only me.)
But, I think you heard him wrong: it is a major screw up.

And, when I said "learn to cook", I meant as/for a diabetic.
If your diabetes is such, and we all have our own personalized
diabetes, that you can eat the modern diet then more
power to you. All I can say is that if you go back to
Paleo, you will probably feel better and your diabetics
will possibly be easier to handle. Perhaps not.

And if you can eat high carb, this is probably not
the best place to publish your recipes. There is a
really nice cooking group for regular folks too (T0's).

And I only kill file nasty people who like to pick fights.
So, you are not kill filed. People can disagree with each
other without being disagreeable. It is actually fun to
learn from others. Let us start over. Hello, my name is
Todd. I am a NIDDM (non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus
or non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetic). I am currently
drug free and hope I never have to go on drugs again.
I control my T2/NIDDM with diet, natural medicine, and
fishing (exercise that is fun). I love to cook diabetic/Paleo.

Now your turn. I am Karen ...


-T


Todd, I follow what my endo says because it has worked for me. Why
would I change what is working? That seems self defeating. It has
managed my T2 quite well. I really don't wish to go on the paleo
diet. You like it, and that's good-for you, but for me. I see no
need to change what is already working. My numbers are good, I take
no meds for that. I have no neuropathy, and excellent circulation to
my feet.

As for the conversation, I am done with it. I have no wish to argue
any more. I hope we can just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I won't change my mind, and you aren't changing yours. Peace....


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Old 12-10-2013, 08:27 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default What cereal to eat for Breakfast?

On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 18:41:17 -0700
"Julie Bove" wrote:

We most assuredly had symptoms.


You have never taken an IgG allergy test. When I said there are no
symptoms, I mean no symptoms for the test results that are "false
positives." You can tell IgG allergies by the time delay. They
take anywhere from a few hours to days for symptoms to appear.

--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

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Old 12-10-2013, 08:42 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 14:49:06 +1000
"Ozgirl" wrote:

Hi Karen, your friend wouldn't be at the starvation level that would
cause the body to cannabalise her muscles To utilise muscle
protein you really need to be starving as in no food only water over
a period of a few weeks and that comes after the normal process of
production of ketones from fat-burning. Your doctor does surprise me
though as this is very basic metabolism pathways stuff. If ketosis
was dangerous there is no way that children who have epilepsy would
be placed on ketogenic diets for control. I am glad your family
member is doing better. My nana was found to be eating only jam
(jelly) sandwiches in her 90's. I remember my mum ended up catching
a bus to her house (5 miles away) every day just to feed her properly
and make sure she ate a decent breakfast, lunch and snacks. That way
if she only ate jam sandwiches for dinner it wasn't a major problem.


If you looked at Dr. Lustig's video, you will see that some patients
are simply unable to lose weight, and I found myself in exactly
that situation. When I didn't eat, I went into hibernation. I
lost fat and muscle both but very slowly. I had so much fat to
lose that I was left weak: unable to run without stumbling. This
is not some theory, but an observation, and if your theory does
not explain it, then I must search for another.

My understanding is that the ketones in the urine that come from
diabetes have nothing to do with ketosis.

--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

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Old 12-10-2013, 08:52 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic,alt.support.diabetes
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Default What cereal to eat for Breakfast?

On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 06:07:33 -0700
Don Roberto wrote:

As for the Inuit - there isn't enough info about how their "no carb
diet" effected them as there weren't enough scientific studies done
before western eating habits caught up with them. What *is* known is
that Inuit life expectancy was lower than that of Westerners. Even in
the 21st century Canadians in general live 12 years longer than the
Inuit.


The Inuit tend to die from smoke-induced cancers. In the 21st
century the Inuit diet has also changed quite a bit. Apparently
one staple now is Crisco smeared on bread.

--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

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Old 13-10-2013, 12:14 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic,alt.support.diabetes
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Default What cereal to eat for Breakfast?

Don Roberto stelde de volgende uitleg voor :
On 10/11/2013 4:20 PM, Maya Zuiderweg wrote:
Maya Zuiderweg had uiteengezet :
Na rijp beraad schreef Don Roberto :
On 10/9/2013 11:24 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/08/2013 05:54 AM, Don Roberto wrote:
Yes. And since there is a zero biological requirement for dietary
carbohydrate in human biology,

*Dr* Susan at her best...

Don,

She is correct. Various aboriginal and the Inuits
eat no fruit or veg's. As my GP says "there is no
scientific proof whatsoever that the consumption
of fat is harmful to humans."

The Inuits did not start getting "White Man's"
diseases until the "convenience stores" moved in.

Give her a break, she doesn't like to see people
hurt. Her heart is in the right place.



Bull!
Susan seems to be incapable of even considering anything that does
not fit her preconceived notions.
She badmouths and then allegedly killfiles anyone who does not agree
with her.
She then snipes at those she allegedly killfiled from behind her
alleged killfile.

I totally agree with you.
As a newbie I had very bad experiences with Susan.
She kept telling me how to eat with diabetes (low carb), but I have a
different kind of diabetes (chronic pancreatitis).
She had no knowledge at all about this disease but kept telling me
what to do.
With my disease it's of the utmost importance that my diet is based on
carbohydrates. Absolutely NO low carbing for me.
When it became clear that she didnt know diddlysquat, she killfiled me.
That was quite unnerving for a newbie:-(
But since killfiling does not always work (think of a reply to me by
another poster, who she had not killfiled), she kept on sniping - and
even suggesting that I did not even exist. (as if I could not read
that, very hurtful).


In other words: neither her heart nor her brains are in the right place.

And the guy I know with the prosthetic legs,
the HUGE heart attack, the ruined kidneys, the
oxygen tank, still to this day tells me you
get to occasionally cheat on the diet. As I
said, give Susan a break.


Nope.

Please do.
M.


Please go on reacting like you do - was what I meant.
M.



I got you the first time.
And yes, I will go on reacting like I do.
In the words of Martin Luther:
Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders.


Great. I got entangled in "nope" from you and my "please do".
M.


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Old 13-10-2013, 12:25 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Trawley Trash" wrote in message ...

On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 14:49:06 +1000
"Ozgirl" wrote:

Hi Karen, your friend wouldn't be at the starvation level that would
cause the body to cannabalise her muscles To utilise muscle
protein you really need to be starving as in no food only water over
a period of a few weeks and that comes after the normal process of
production of ketones from fat-burning. Your doctor does surprise me
though as this is very basic metabolism pathways stuff. If ketosis
was dangerous there is no way that children who have epilepsy would
be placed on ketogenic diets for control. I am glad your family
member is doing better. My nana was found to be eating only jam
(jelly) sandwiches in her 90's. I remember my mum ended up catching
a bus to her house (5 miles away) every day just to feed her properly
and make sure she ate a decent breakfast, lunch and snacks. That way
if she only ate jam sandwiches for dinner it wasn't a major problem.


If you looked at Dr. Lustig's video, you will see that some patients
are simply unable to lose weight, and I found myself in exactly
that situation. When I didn't eat, I went into hibernation. I
lost fat and muscle both but very slowly. I had so much fat to
lose that I was left weak: unable to run without stumbling. This
is not some theory, but an observation, and if your theory does
not explain it, then I must search for another.

My understanding is that the ketones in the urine that come from
diabetes have nothing to do with ketosis.

--------------------

Ketoacidosis can develop very quickly in a diabetic, especially a type 1
(type 2's are not excluded but it does occur, albeit rarely, amongst
type 2's). The key is they are developing kjetones for a different
reason to dietary-induced (or starvation) ketosis.




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"Cheri" wrote in message
...

Not only that but my CDE says if you take in less than a certain amount
per day, your brain can't function properly. I think she said that was
135 g per day.



Your CDE's brain obviously isn't functioning properly. What a load of
absolute baloney.


I have seen countless other sources that say the same or similar.

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Old 13-10-2013, 06:55 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Trawley Trash" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 18:41:17 -0700
"Julie Bove" wrote:

We most assuredly had symptoms.


You have never taken an IgG allergy test. When I said there are no
symptoms, I mean no symptoms for the test results that are "false
positives." You can tell IgG allergies by the time delay. They
take anywhere from a few hours to days for symptoms to appear.


I have taken the tests three times.

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Old 13-10-2013, 07:03 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Trawley Trash" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 14:49:06 +1000
"Ozgirl" wrote:

Hi Karen, your friend wouldn't be at the starvation level that would
cause the body to cannabalise her muscles To utilise muscle
protein you really need to be starving as in no food only water over
a period of a few weeks and that comes after the normal process of
production of ketones from fat-burning. Your doctor does surprise me
though as this is very basic metabolism pathways stuff. If ketosis
was dangerous there is no way that children who have epilepsy would
be placed on ketogenic diets for control. I am glad your family
member is doing better. My nana was found to be eating only jam
(jelly) sandwiches in her 90's. I remember my mum ended up catching
a bus to her house (5 miles away) every day just to feed her properly
and make sure she ate a decent breakfast, lunch and snacks. That way
if she only ate jam sandwiches for dinner it wasn't a major problem.


If you looked at Dr. Lustig's video, you will see that some patients
are simply unable to lose weight, and I found myself in exactly
that situation. When I didn't eat, I went into hibernation. I
lost fat and muscle both but very slowly. I had so much fat to
lose that I was left weak: unable to run without stumbling. This
is not some theory, but an observation, and if your theory does
not explain it, then I must search for another.

My understanding is that the ketones in the urine that come from
diabetes have nothing to do with ketosis.


The book I am currently reading on allergies and food intolerances cites
these as the cause for both obesity and asthma.

There is also an interesting part about probiotics which are necessary for
everyone but even more so in the case of a person with food issues. The
book says during the birthing process, the baby passes through the vagina
and picks up natural probiotics from the mother. But, we are often too
quick to wash these off of the baby. Worse still is a C-Section. It says
that C-Section babies tend to have more allergies and asthma than those who
were born naturally.

Factor in breast milk or lack thereof and some of us are screwed. My mom
said I wouldn't nurse so was put on formula or milk but I was allergic to
everything. I did breast feed Angela but couldn't produce nearly enough
milk so had to supplement and she too had issues with every formula on the
market at that time. Breast milk also contains probiotics.

My naturopath said they now know that the function of the appendix is to
make natural probiotics, especially when we are sick. Angela had hers
removed just before her 3rd birthday and her health has all gone downhill
from there. She is on probiotics now.

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Old 14-10-2013, 07:40 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Ozgirl" wrote in message
...


I think Karen controls without meds, so I don't think she is over-doing
the carbs. I remember when I was first diagnosed I was eating 30 gr carb
per main meal. That worked for a short time and I had to lower it.
Eventually I was down to about 5 gr for brekky and 10-15 gr at lunch &
dinner. Snacks were sometimes zero carbs or up to 10 gr. Most of my carbs
came from non or low starch veggies (and the "free" veggies) and small
amounts of low GI fruits (berries mostly). I think Karen was the one who
recently said if it ain't broken why fix it? I apologise if that wasn't
her


When I was hyperthyroid I could easily eat 45 grams of carb for lunch and
dinner. Only 30 for breakfast. I was still having lots of hypos and had to
eat a lot of candy between meals. Was not on any diabetes meds and was not
having spikes. A1c was in the 4's but I can't remember the exact numbers.
There is no one size fits all in diabetes.

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Old 14-10-2013, 12:26 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic,alt.support.diabetes
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On 10/12/2013 12:52 PM, Trawley Trash wrote:
On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 06:07:33 -0700
Don Roberto wrote:

As for the Inuit - there isn't enough info about how their "no carb
diet" effected them as there weren't enough scientific studies done
before western eating habits caught up with them. What *is* known is
that Inuit life expectancy was lower than that of Westerners. Even in
the 21st century Canadians in general live 12 years longer than the
Inuit.


The Inuit tend to die from smoke-induced cancers. In the 21st
century the Inuit diet has also changed quite a bit. Apparently
one staple now is Crisco smeared on bread.


Yummy.


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