On Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:58:14 -0700
"Julie Bove" wrote:


"Trawley Trash" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:58:55 +0000 (UTC)
"W. Baker" wrote:

Unless you have specific food allergies etc, then no food actuall
is poison.

Everyone has food allergies, whether they know it or not. Most of
them show up as long-term chronic conditions (like diabetes) that
doctors cannot treat. Instead they prescribe symptomatic relief
like pain killers or insulin that do nothing for the underlying
condition.

No, everyone does not have food allergies. If by allergies you mean
IgE allergies. In fact most people do not. Now there is highly
debated evidence of late that IgG reactions, aka intolerances may in
fact be allergy related. But do most people have those? Probably
not. I suspect that most people can eat what they want. But many
people have to avoid at least one food for some reason. And that
reason is most likely not IgE or IgG related.

Yes, I do mean IgG allergies along with IgE allergies. There are
others too like IgA and IgM. The Ig stand for "immune globulin."
If it is an undesired immune response, then it is an allergy.

The reason IgG allergies are hotly debated is that the IgG blood tests
show that everyone has allergies. Most doctors claim these are "false
positives," because there are no symptoms. The problem is they don't
recognize that high BG can be one of the symptoms.

I back in school studying biochemistry, because doctors
have been no help at all. I won't be posting here as much.

--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

On Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:01:05 -0700
"Julie Bove" wrote:

*sigh* You seriously seem to think that this Mark guy is a God or
something! Fiber from grains does not mess with the intestines.

It messes with mine. Fructans are fibers contained in grains.
Other fibers are not a problem for me.

But you are not everyone else. If I eat a bite of egg, I'll be
spending several miserable hours on the toilet.

If I eat eggs regularly my BG climbs through the roof. No other
symptoms of allergy other than a positive on the IgG allergy test.

If I eat oats, I
will itch all over. I know that I can not eat these things. Doesn't
mean that they are bad for everyone else.

I never said they were. OTOH I am not unique either. I have
met people with similar problems.

--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

On Mon, 07 Oct 2013 19:11:20 -0700
Todd wrote:

Just looked up a "medium apple": 25 grams. Yikes!
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...-juices/1809/2
Definitely not a free food.

Just looked up strawberries too: 1 cup, 12 grams.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...-juices/2064/2
That could probably be worked with. Maybe a 1/4 cup smashed
into some butter for a hot topping. The local orgaic farms
grows them, but they closed for the season. :'(

You can ferment fruit juice and optionally evaporate the alcohol.

Also cooking will probably help.

--
I'm Trawley Trash, and you haven't heard the last of me yet.

On 10/9/2013 11:24 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/08/2013 05:54 AM, Don Roberto wrote:
Yes. And since there is a zero biological requirement for dietary
carbohydrate in human biology,

*Dr* Susan at her best...

Don,

She is correct. Various aboriginal and the Inuits
eat no fruit or veg's. As my GP says "there is no
scientific proof whatsoever that the consumption
of fat is harmful to humans."

The Inuits did not start getting "White Man's"
diseases until the "convenience stores" moved in.

Give her a break, she doesn't like to see people
hurt. Her heart is in the right place.



Bull!
Susan seems to be incapable of even considering anything that does not
fit her preconceived notions.
She badmouths and then allegedly killfiles anyone who does not agree
with her.
She then snipes at those she allegedly killfiled from behind her alleged
killfile.

In other words: neither her heart nor her brains are in the right place.

And the guy I know with the prosthetic legs,
the HUGE heart attack, the ruined kidneys, the
oxygen tank, still to this day tells me you
get to occasionally cheat on the diet. As I
said, give Susan a break.


Nope.

On 10/10/2013 7:28 PM, Don Roberto wrote:
On 10/9/2013 11:24 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/08/2013 05:54 AM, Don Roberto wrote:
Yes. And since there is a zero biological requirement for dietary
carbohydrate in human biology,

*Dr* Susan at her best...

Don,

She is correct. Various aboriginal and the Inuits
eat no fruit or veg's. As my GP says "there is no
scientific proof whatsoever that the consumption
of fat is harmful to humans."

The Inuits did not start getting "White Man's"
diseases until the "convenience stores" moved in.

Give her a break, she doesn't like to see people
hurt. Her heart is in the right place.



Bull!
Susan seems to be incapable of even considering anything that does not
fit her preconceived notions.
She badmouths and then allegedly killfiles anyone who does not agree
with her.
She then snipes at those she allegedly killfiled from behind her alleged
killfile.

In other words: neither her heart nor her brains are in the right place.

And the guy I know with the prosthetic legs,
the HUGE heart attack, the ruined kidneys, the
oxygen tank, still to this day tells me you
get to occasionally cheat on the diet. As I
said, give Susan a break.


Nope.

When I first came here I gave her the benefit of doubt. Bad mistake.

On 10/10/2013 5:39 PM, outsider wrote:
On 10/10/2013 7:28 PM, Don Roberto wrote:
On 10/9/2013 11:24 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/08/2013 05:54 AM, Don Roberto wrote:
Yes. And since there is a zero biological requirement for dietary
carbohydrate in human biology,

*Dr* Susan at her best...

Don,

She is correct. Various aboriginal and the Inuits
eat no fruit or veg's. As my GP says "there is no
scientific proof whatsoever that the consumption
of fat is harmful to humans."

The Inuits did not start getting "White Man's"
diseases until the "convenience stores" moved in.

Give her a break, she doesn't like to see people
hurt. Her heart is in the right place.



Bull!
Susan seems to be incapable of even considering anything that does not
fit her preconceived notions.
She badmouths and then allegedly killfiles anyone who does not agree
with her.
She then snipes at those she allegedly killfiled from behind her alleged
killfile.

In other words: neither her heart nor her brains are in the right place.

And the guy I know with the prosthetic legs,
the HUGE heart attack, the ruined kidneys, the
oxygen tank, still to this day tells me you
get to occasionally cheat on the diet. As I
said, give Susan a break.


Nope.

When I first came here I gave her the benefit of doubt.


Me too.

Bad mistake.


Yep.

Don Roberto schreef op 11-10-2013 :
On 10/10/2013 5:39 PM, outsider wrote:
On 10/10/2013 7:28 PM, Don Roberto wrote:
On 10/9/2013 11:24 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/08/2013 05:54 AM, Don Roberto wrote:
Yes. And since there is a zero biological requirement for dietary
carbohydrate in human biology,

*Dr* Susan at her best...

Don,

She is correct. Various aboriginal and the Inuits
eat no fruit or veg's. As my GP says "there is no
scientific proof whatsoever that the consumption
of fat is harmful to humans."

The Inuits did not start getting "White Man's"
diseases until the "convenience stores" moved in.

Give her a break, she doesn't like to see people
hurt. Her heart is in the right place.



Bull!
Susan seems to be incapable of even considering anything that does not
fit her preconceived notions.
She badmouths and then allegedly killfiles anyone who does not agree
with her.
She then snipes at those she allegedly killfiled from behind her alleged
killfile.

In other words: neither her heart nor her brains are in the right place.

And the guy I know with the prosthetic legs,
the HUGE heart attack, the ruined kidneys, the
oxygen tank, still to this day tells me you
get to occasionally cheat on the diet. As I
said, give Susan a break.


Nope.

When I first came here I gave her the benefit of doubt.


Me too.

Bad mistake.


Yep.

+3,14

M.

Na rijp beraad schreef Don Roberto :
On 10/9/2013 11:24 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/08/2013 05:54 AM, Don Roberto wrote:
Yes. And since there is a zero biological requirement for dietary
carbohydrate in human biology,

*Dr* Susan at her best...

Don,

She is correct. Various aboriginal and the Inuits
eat no fruit or veg's. As my GP says "there is no
scientific proof whatsoever that the consumption
of fat is harmful to humans."

The Inuits did not start getting "White Man's"
diseases until the "convenience stores" moved in.

Give her a break, she doesn't like to see people
hurt. Her heart is in the right place.



Bull!
Susan seems to be incapable of even considering anything that does not fit
her preconceived notions.
She badmouths and then allegedly killfiles anyone who does not agree with
her.
She then snipes at those she allegedly killfiled from behind her alleged
killfile.

I totally agree with you.
As a newbie I had very bad experiences with Susan.
She kept telling me how to eat with diabetes (low carb), but I have a
different kind of diabetes (chronic pancreatitis).
She had no knowledge at all about this disease but kept telling me what
to do.
With my disease it's of the utmost importance that my diet is based on
carbohydrates. Absolutely NO low carbing for me.
When it became clear that she didnt know diddlysquat, she killfiled me.
That was quite unnerving for a newbie:-(
But since killfiling does not always work (think of a reply to me by
another poster, who she had not killfiled), she kept on sniping - and
even suggesting that I did not even exist. (as if I could not read
that, very hurtful).


In other words: neither her heart nor her brains are in the right place.

And the guy I know with the prosthetic legs,
the HUGE heart attack, the ruined kidneys, the
oxygen tank, still to this day tells me you
get to occasionally cheat on the diet. As I
said, give Susan a break.


Nope.

Please do.
M.

Maya Zuiderweg had uiteengezet :
Na rijp beraad schreef Don Roberto :
On 10/9/2013 11:24 AM, Todd wrote:
On 10/08/2013 05:54 AM, Don Roberto wrote:
Yes. And since there is a zero biological requirement for dietary
carbohydrate in human biology,

*Dr* Susan at her best...

Don,

She is correct. Various aboriginal and the Inuits
eat no fruit or veg's. As my GP says "there is no
scientific proof whatsoever that the consumption
of fat is harmful to humans."

The Inuits did not start getting "White Man's"
diseases until the "convenience stores" moved in.

Give her a break, she doesn't like to see people
hurt. Her heart is in the right place.



Bull!
Susan seems to be incapable of even considering anything that does not fit
her preconceived notions.
She badmouths and then allegedly killfiles anyone who does not agree with
her.
She then snipes at those she allegedly killfiled from behind her alleged
killfile.

I totally agree with you.
As a newbie I had very bad experiences with Susan.
She kept telling me how to eat with diabetes (low carb), but I have a
different kind of diabetes (chronic pancreatitis).
She had no knowledge at all about this disease but kept telling me what to
do.
With my disease it's of the utmost importance that my diet is based on
carbohydrates. Absolutely NO low carbing for me.
When it became clear that she didnt know diddlysquat, she killfiled me.
That was quite unnerving for a newbie:-(
But since killfiling does not always work (think of a reply to me by another
poster, who she had not killfiled), she kept on sniping - and even suggesting
that I did not even exist. (as if I could not read that, very hurtful).


In other words: neither her heart nor her brains are in the right place.

And the guy I know with the prosthetic legs,
the HUGE heart attack, the ruined kidneys, the
oxygen tank, still to this day tells me you
get to occasionally cheat on the diet. As I
said, give Susan a break.


Nope.

Please do.
M.

Please go on reacting like you do - was what I meant.
M.

"Trawley Trash" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:58:14 -0700
"Julie Bove" wrote:


"Trawley Trash" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:58:55 +0000 (UTC)
"W. Baker" wrote:

Unless you have specific food allergies etc, then no food actuall
is poison.

Everyone has food allergies, whether they know it or not. Most of
them show up as long-term chronic conditions (like diabetes) that
doctors cannot treat. Instead they prescribe symptomatic relief
like pain killers or insulin that do nothing for the underlying
condition.

No, everyone does not have food allergies. If by allergies you mean
IgE allergies. In fact most people do not. Now there is highly
debated evidence of late that IgG reactions, aka intolerances may in
fact be allergy related. But do most people have those? Probably
not. I suspect that most people can eat what they want. But many
people have to avoid at least one food for some reason. And that
reason is most likely not IgE or IgG related.

Yes, I do mean IgG allergies along with IgE allergies. There are
others too like IgA and IgM. The Ig stand for "immune globulin."
If it is an undesired immune response, then it is an allergy.

The reason IgG allergies are hotly debated is that the IgG blood tests
show that everyone has allergies. Most doctors claim these are "false
positives," because there are no symptoms. The problem is they don't
recognize that high BG can be one of the symptoms.

I back in school studying biochemistry, because doctors
have been no help at all. I won't be posting here as much.

We most assuredly had symptoms. For me, egg gives me extreme diarrhea and
stomach pains. So extreme that I will never touch anything that I think
might have a remote chance of egg in it. Dairy? Diarrhea to a lesser
extent. And if I keep eating it, like I did for most of my life, then I
will also have skin problems and go through Kleenex like you wouldn't
believe. Then eventually I will get ear and sinus infections. Oats give me
an itchy rash. Mint? Makes me sick to my stomach and when used in dental
preparations, tooth sensitivity. I can't remember now what clove does to me
but I did have a reaction to it when I ate some pickles that contained it
the other day. I remember having a reaction, just don't remember what. Not
sure about lovage, thyme of some of the other things. Some, like lamb, I
never ate. And I ate the others so infrequently and in such a small amount.
Plus I was eating combined problems. So that can make it hard to ferret out
the problem.

So while I was having symptoms, I didn't relate them to food for most of my
life. Why? Because I always had these problems from birth. I was just
told, that was the way I was! I assumed that everyone felt like crap all
the time. And I used to wonder when I saw people smiling. Like... How can
they be so happy when there stomach hurts so much?

We only made the connection to milk after my physician told my mom to stop
giving it to me. She used to make us drink it at meals even though I always
hated it and she told me that I had been allergic to it as an infant. My
stomach did get some better and my acne got a lot better? The problem? My
mom was still giving me milk! In the form of cheese and stuff like mashed
potatoes and macaroni and cheese. To her, avoiding milk means that you
don't drink a glass of milk. She never considers (still doesn't to this
day) that milk used as an ingredient could hurt you.

I didn't fully make the connection to the other things until I totally
stopped consuming them. I discovered the egg on my own. At first, I mostly
followed Angela's diet. I didn't avoid wheat in the form of bread or
occasionally crackers, or in something like a gravy at a restaurant. But
for family meals, I made them totally gluten free. But I ate no dairy and
eggs. I didn't get totally better then because I was still consuming some
things that *I* shouldn't have. Like almonds. I didn't get fully better
until I was tested. By that point I had added dairy back in but not eggs.
I have told the story here before about eating the egg salad and having a
violent reaction to it. Thought it was food poisoning but then when I tried
egg again and had the same reaction, that was it for me and eggs.

I then foolishly added dairy back in after a retest showed a problem. And I
should have known. I was having a reaction but didn't want to know about
it. I really wanted to eat that cheese!

Then the last testing showed even more problems. I am considering getting
tested yet again due to sinus issues. Angela and my husband both became
sick with respiratory things. His was like a cold. Hers was just a bad
sore throat with only a little bit of sinus stuff. I thought I had escaped
it but I came down with it after they got better, despite dosing myself with
faux Airborne.

That was over a week ago. My nose is still running a lot. Like it is
allergies. I don't feel really sick and I never got the headache that they
got. I did feel like spending a couple of days in bed. And I had no
appetite. That stuff has resolved but the nose is still running. So now I
don't know if it is something in the air or a food that I am eating. I do
have allergies to mums and try to avoid them but they are everywhere this
time of year.

Anyway... The point I was trying to make is that if you have multiple
problems with foods, and you continue to eat those foods, it can be next to
impossible to tell which foods are the cause. Plus I think your symptoms
can be diluted. But once you've eliminated those foods for a year or two,
and you eat them again, one of two things can happen. Either you'll outgrow
the problem, like I did for a while with dairy, or... Your symptoms will
hit you harder than ever. For me, some things cause a fairly immediate
response, like oats. But others, like egg will cause such a delayed
response that it can be hard to relate the response to the food.

"Trawley Trash" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:01:05 -0700
"Julie Bove" wrote:

*sigh* You seriously seem to think that this Mark guy is a God or
something! Fiber from grains does not mess with the intestines.

It messes with mine. Fructans are fibers contained in grains.
Other fibers are not a problem for me.

But you are not everyone else. If I eat a bite of egg, I'll be
spending several miserable hours on the toilet.

If I eat eggs regularly my BG climbs through the roof. No other
symptoms of allergy other than a positive on the IgG allergy test.

Okay.

If I eat oats, I
will itch all over. I know that I can not eat these things. Doesn't
mean that they are bad for everyone else.

I never said they were. OTOH I am not unique either. I have
met people with similar problems.

Okay.

"Todd" wrote in message
...
On 10/11/2013 07:50 PM, Karen wrote:
Just this week I had a doctor tell me when you do not
get enough energy from carbs your body starts breaking down muscle and
then you spill ketones into the urine.

Hi Karen,

You (or someone else) is paying out the nose for those doctors.
Of course follow what they say.

If a person has insurance then it might not be that much OOP.

Are you sure that is what the doctor said? If you google
"Inuit paradox" you will find that the Inuits don't have
any carbs at all. Carbs are not necessary for humans.
My GP laughed and said I was correct when I mentioned
the Inuits. (He was happy I am low carb, rather than constantly
trying to cheat the regimen. He does not like having to
amputate legs.)

Are you an Innuit, Todd? I know you won't see this because you had me KFed.
I'm thinking, no because you said you are Jewish and I've never heard of a
Jewish Innuit.

I have been reading a lot of books on diet and nutrition lately and a lot of
a person's diet relates to where they are. There could well be something in
the water or the soil of where the Innuits live that factors into this.

And even though I am not Karen, I am pretty sure that this is what the Dr.
said because countless other people have said this.

Your Dr. might tell you to low carb. But I've only ever heard one Dr. say
that the body does not need carbs. This was not said to me and the person
he said it to was put on the South Beach diet which is not low carb although
all carbs except for beans are restricted in the beginning phase.

Your liver will manufacture whatever glucose you need. And
you spill keytones into your urine when you fast (you feel
hungry when this happens). You also blow them out your
breath. You will smell like fruit punch. It comes from the
breakdown of your own stored fat. (Keyto sticks are
really cheap at Wal mart, if you want to monitor yourself.
They are over by the diabetic test strips.)

And if you're like me and try to low carb, your body will kick out more
glucose to compensate. And you'll wind up with high BG.

Here is a nice article on keytones:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies
"Ketone bodies are three different water-soluble,
biochemicals that are produced as by-products when
fatty acids are broken down in the liver for energy..."

The word is ketones. If you're trying to come across as an expert, you
should at least use your spell check.

I think possibly you heard your doctor wrong. Maybe
next time you see him, you should ask him about the Inuits
and where keytones come from. If that is what he really
said, you may wish to do some research on your own.
(I would get another doctor, but that is only me.)
But, I think you heard him wrong: it is a major screw up.

OMG! Just freaking OMG!

And, when I said "learn to cook", I meant as/for a diabetic.
If your diabetes is such, and we all have our own personalized
diabetes, that you can eat the modern diet then more
power to you. All I can say is that if you go back to
Paleo, you will probably feel better and your diabetics
will possibly be easier to handle. Perhaps not.

Diabetics cook just like everyone else. And just how many diabetics is she
handling and why?

And if you can eat high carb, this is probably not
the best place to publish your recipes. There is a
really nice cooking group for regular folks too (T0's).

Who died and put you in charge of this group? Anyone can post any recipe
they want here. There is nothing off limits to a diabetic as a whole. But
some people find they have issues with certain things. It's all a matter of
portion size. Yes, that portion may be only one bite so for that reason
some people choose not to eat it.

And I only kill file nasty people who like to pick fights.
So, you are not kill filed. People can disagree with each
other without being disagreeable. It is actually fun to
learn from others. Let us start over. Hello, my name is
Todd. I am a NIDDM (non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus
or non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetic). I am currently
drug free and hope I never have to go on drugs again.
I control my T2/NIDDM with diet, natural medicine, and
fishing (exercise that is fun). I love to cook diabetic/Paleo.

You need to put yourself in the KF then. This is not a Paleo newsgroup.
It's a diabetic newsgroup. And when it comes to diabetes, one size does not
fit all.

Now your turn. I am Karen ...

You are Karen? I am confused.

"Ozgirl" wrote in message
...


Karen, I think you may have mis-heard the doctor. Ketone bodies are formed
in the liver as a result of fat break-down - the fatty acids are converted
to ketones in the liver - first and fore-most (after depletion of glucose
stores). Conversion of muscle protein to ketones is way down the track. If
you have ever been on a weight loss diet or fasting (or even normal
overnight fasting) then you have produced ketone bodies. FWIW, even when I
was doing very low carb at the beginning of my type 2 diagnosis I only
barely registered ketones on a pee stick. Most times none showed up. Of
course that doesn't mean I wasn't producing ketones, just that the
concentration wasn't high enough to register. Just like you won't see
glucose in your urine until your bg is quite high. The only time you would
start to lose muscle is when the body runs out of fuel sources, as in
prolonged starvation (as in little to no food - faster obviously if one
can't get water either), and protein in muscle becomes the food source.
The body is designed in a way to prevent muscle loss, we need muscles to
move. Low carbers are not starving and I seriously doubt there are any low
carbers out there that lower their protein levels drastically. Eating
plenty of protein ensures that the muscles are maintained properly. There
are protective metabolic processes in the body that preserve the body for
as long as possible, using muscle protein as a very last resort. Once
muscle catabolism starts you could probably safely say you are close to
death. Slim people will get to that point faster.

I believe this bears out both what she said that the Dr. said and what my
CDE said.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7357509_ha...hydrates_.html

"Todd" wrote in message
...


Hi Ozgirl and Karen,

When I was inducted into the "pin cushion club" it was with
diabetic ketoacidosis. This is a whole different issue than
someone not feeding themselves enough. I was not eating
enough fat, eating tons of carbs, and my cells were
burning their own fat and yelling to my liver that
they were starving, despite how much I ate. Very
insulin resistant. I have fortunately stopped loosing
weight since Paleo.

Are you sure of this? It is rare for a type 2 to have that.

You can monitor your keytones with keyto sticks. They
are fairly cheap at Wal mart, over by the diabetic supplies.
I can eat all the fat I want and no keytones. They only come
when I fast and burn my own fat. (I don't fast on purpose.)
This is why dieters on no carb diets monitor their keytones.
They actually want to go into ketosis. Never heard
of it doing any damage.

I'm pretty sure that they monitor their ketones. And that only needs to be
done if you have really high BG, or so I was told by my former CDE.

"Julie Bove" wrote in message ...


"Ozgirl" wrote in message
...


Karen, I think you may have mis-heard the doctor. Ketone bodies are
formed in the liver as a result of fat break-down - the fatty acids
are converted to ketones in the liver - first and fore-most (after
depletion of glucose stores). Conversion of muscle protein to ketones
is way down the track. If you have ever been on a weight loss diet or
fasting (or even normal overnight fasting) then you have produced
ketone bodies. FWIW, even when I was doing very low carb at the
beginning of my type 2 diagnosis I only barely registered ketones on a
pee stick. Most times none showed up. Of course that doesn't mean I
wasn't producing ketones, just that the concentration wasn't high
enough to register. Just like you won't see glucose in your urine
until your bg is quite high. The only time you would start to lose
muscle is when the body runs out of fuel sources, as in prolonged
starvation (as in little to no food - faster obviously if one can't
get water either), and protein in muscle becomes the food source. The
body is designed in a way to prevent muscle loss, we need muscles to
move. Low carbers are not starving and I seriously doubt there are any
low carbers out there that lower their protein levels drastically.
Eating plenty of protein ensures that the muscles are maintained
properly. There are protective metabolic processes in the body that
preserve the body for as long as possible, using muscle protein as a
very last resort. Once muscle catabolism starts you could probably
safely say you are close to death. Slim people will get to that point
faster.

I believe this bears out both what she said that the Dr. said and what
my
CDE said.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7357509_ha...hydrates_.html

---------

Unfortunately that site is way off mark. This is the sort of stuff I
read in op-ed parts of the newspaper, not from scientific journals.
Biochemistry is rather easy to understand (and a very exciting branch of
science) and any search amongst publications like Pubmed etc will
explain the citric acid cycle (Kreb's cycle) as part of human metabolic
pathways.