Diabetic (alt.food.diabetic) This group is for the discussion of controlled-portion eating plans for the dietary management of diabetes.

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  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 12-09-2011, 10:38 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Robert Miles" wrote in message
.com...
On 8/31/2011 6:38 AM, Storrmmee wrote:
and iirc any fat once heated to a certain temp becomes trans fats,
like you
think you are being good heating some OO to fry some vegetables in,
and poof
its now is trans or has trans fats, Lee
"Julie wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...


"Tiger wrote in message
...
On 8/30/2011 2:30 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
Hershey's has some new milk chocolate Kisses that are filled with
air
in the
middle. Well not quite. They whip the centers. We got a bag
for next
to
combining a sale and using a coupon and a doubler. So much air
is in
there
that 11 Kisses is a serving. 7 is a serving of the regular
Kisses. At
least 7 for a diabetic, meaning 15g of carb.

I find I *can* eat just one of these. Kisses are one of those
things
that I
don't dislike. I actually kind of like them but not all that
well,
maybe
because I have to unwrap them all and that's a pain.

So I find if I want a taste of chocolate, I can eat one of these
things.
And I can stop with just one. And they don't mess with my GERD.



Julie, soon as i see 'whipped' i have to ask

what are the trans-fat levels in these chocolates?

kate

Doesn't say, do you have to declare it in the US?
http://www.hersheys.com/kisses/produ...r-delight.aspx

I don't think we have to declare it. Some manufacturers will say
"no
trans-fats" but it is a meaningless declaration because if it is
under a
certain amount per serving they can call it that.


Correction - any polyunsaturated fat heated to a certain temperature
changes to about 50% or more trans-fats. Saturated fats do not,
because they do not have the type of links that can change to make
them trans-fats. I'm not sure about monounsaturated fats.


Its my belief that only happens with re-used oil not once off fresh oil.


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Old 12-09-2011, 11:56 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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On 9/12/2011 4:38 PM, Ozgirl wrote:


"Robert Miles" wrote in message
.com...
On 8/31/2011 6:38 AM, Storrmmee wrote:
and iirc any fat once heated to a certain temp becomes trans fats,
like you
think you are being good heating some OO to fry some vegetables in,
and poof
its now is trans or has trans fats, Lee
"Julie wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...


"Tiger wrote in message
...
On 8/30/2011 2:30 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
Hershey's has some new milk chocolate Kisses that are filled with
air
in the
middle. Well not quite. They whip the centers. We got a bag for next
to
combining a sale and using a coupon and a doubler. So much air is in
there
that 11 Kisses is a serving. 7 is a serving of the regular
Kisses. At
least 7 for a diabetic, meaning 15g of carb.

I find I *can* eat just one of these. Kisses are one of those things
that I
don't dislike. I actually kind of like them but not all that well,
maybe
because I have to unwrap them all and that's a pain.

So I find if I want a taste of chocolate, I can eat one of these
things.
And I can stop with just one. And they don't mess with my GERD.



Julie, soon as i see 'whipped' i have to ask

what are the trans-fat levels in these chocolates?

kate

Doesn't say, do you have to declare it in the US?
http://www.hersheys.com/kisses/produ...r-delight.aspx

I don't think we have to declare it. Some manufacturers will say "no
trans-fats" but it is a meaningless declaration because if it is
under a
certain amount per serving they can call it that.


Correction - any polyunsaturated fat heated to a certain temperature
changes to about 50% or more trans-fats. Saturated fats do not,
because they do not have the type of links that can change to make
them trans-fats. I'm not sure about monounsaturated fats.


Its my belief that only happens with re-used oil not once off fresh oil.


I would expect it to happen more with re-used oil, since it has
been exposed to heat more than once, but still happen somewhat
the first time the oil is used.
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Old 13-09-2011, 01:44 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Robert Miles" wrote in message
.com...
On 9/12/2011 4:38 PM, Ozgirl wrote:


Correction - any polyunsaturated fat heated to a certain temperature
changes to about 50% or more trans-fats. Saturated fats do not,
because they do not have the type of links that can change to make
them trans-fats. I'm not sure about monounsaturated fats.


Its my belief that only happens with re-used oil not once off fresh
oil.


I would expect it to happen more with re-used oil, since it has
been exposed to heat more than once, but still happen somewhat
the first time the oil is used.


Quentin used to talk a lot about trans fats. Here he is answering a
question from Jenny:

"Quentin,
If I avoid processed foods with added partially hydrogenated fats,
where else would I be getting trans fats in my diet? I've been
rigorously avoiding packaged foods for years ever since reading Protein
Power and first learning about the evils of trans fat. But I'm
wondering: Do they get made when I fry butcher-made sausage or bacon?



G'day G'day Jenny,
All I can give is an opinion. The research that showed the formation
of trans fats was done with deep fryers that stayed hot all day. The
rate of formation was slow. The quick answer is no UNLESS you keep
and reuse the fat. Some people do.
What about when I cook fatty meat on a gas grill?


Once again no. Trans fats are not a problem here. Also ask yourself
this simple question. What is happening to the fats on a gas grills.
Are they being drained away as you cook? This is very different from
deep frying.
Or for that matter, what about when I marinate chicken in a supposedly
healthy "organic" marinade with canola oils and then grill it?


Whenever you cook once there is most unlikely to be a problem with
trans fats. Personally I'd use olive oil but hey I happen to love
chicken and olive casserole.
Is there going to be anything left I can eat that doesn't do bad things
to me but still tastes good? G


Well yes and no. Almost any food has some downside if eaten to the
exclusion of other things. Take the broccoli receiving favourable
mention for its sulphoraphane content. If one were to eat almost
nothing else then there could be goiter problems. IMHO no food should
dominate one's diet.
The Okinawans thrice boil and then stir fry their pork. Not
everything needs to be grilled to get flavour benefits."

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Old 13-09-2011, 04:49 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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On 9/12/2011 4:56 PM, Robert Miles wrote:
On 9/12/2011 4:38 PM, Ozgirl wrote:


"Robert Miles" wrote in message
.com...
On 8/31/2011 6:38 AM, Storrmmee wrote:
and iirc any fat once heated to a certain temp becomes trans fats,
like you
think you are being good heating some OO to fry some vegetables in,
and poof
its now is trans or has trans fats, Lee
"Julie wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...


"Tiger wrote in message
...
On 8/30/2011 2:30 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
Hershey's has some new milk chocolate Kisses that are filled with
air
in the
middle. Well not quite. They whip the centers. We got a bag for
next
to
combining a sale and using a coupon and a doubler. So much air
is in
there
that 11 Kisses is a serving. 7 is a serving of the regular
Kisses. At
least 7 for a diabetic, meaning 15g of carb.

I find I *can* eat just one of these. Kisses are one of those
things
that I
don't dislike. I actually kind of like them but not all that well,
maybe
because I have to unwrap them all and that's a pain.

So I find if I want a taste of chocolate, I can eat one of these
things.
And I can stop with just one. And they don't mess with my GERD.



Julie, soon as i see 'whipped' i have to ask

what are the trans-fat levels in these chocolates?

kate

Doesn't say, do you have to declare it in the US?
http://www.hersheys.com/kisses/produ...r-delight.aspx

I don't think we have to declare it. Some manufacturers will say "no
trans-fats" but it is a meaningless declaration because if it is
under a
certain amount per serving they can call it that.

Correction - any polyunsaturated fat heated to a certain temperature
changes to about 50% or more trans-fats. Saturated fats do not,
because they do not have the type of links that can change to make
them trans-fats. I'm not sure about monounsaturated fats.


Its my belief that only happens with re-used oil not once off fresh oil.


I would expect it to happen more with re-used oil, since it has
been exposed to heat more than once, but still happen somewhat
the first time the oil is used.


Wasn't there something about the smoke point of the oil being
used......... in that if the oil has reached the smoke point, it now has
changed and should be avoided? iirc?

kate
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Old 14-09-2011, 12:09 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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On 9/12/2011 7:44 PM, Ozgirl wrote:


"Robert Miles" wrote in message
.com...
On 9/12/2011 4:38 PM, Ozgirl wrote:


Correction - any polyunsaturated fat heated to a certain temperature
changes to about 50% or more trans-fats. Saturated fats do not,
because they do not have the type of links that can change to make
them trans-fats. I'm not sure about monounsaturated fats.

Its my belief that only happens with re-used oil not once off fresh oil.


I would expect it to happen more with re-used oil, since it has
been exposed to heat more than once, but still happen somewhat
the first time the oil is used.


Quentin used to talk a lot about trans fats. Here he is answering a
question from Jenny:

"Quentin,
If I avoid processed foods with added partially hydrogenated fats,
where else would I be getting trans fats in my diet? I've been
rigorously avoiding packaged foods for years ever since reading
Protein Power and first learning about the evils of trans fat. But I'm
wondering: Do they get made when I fry butcher-made sausage or bacon?


G'day G'day Jenny,
All I can give is an opinion. The research that showed the formation
of trans fats was done with deep fryers that stayed hot all day. The
rate of formation was slow. The quick answer is no UNLESS you keep
and reuse the fat. Some people do.


Note that the question he is answering essentially excludes partial
hydrogenation from consideration, even though it it the major source
of trans-fats. He may well have been right about this lesser source,
though.



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Old 16-09-2011, 11:23 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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In article ,
"Ozgirl" wrote:

When Quentin spoke of opinions he was speaking of his opinion of the
studies he had researched over many years. He never had un-researched
opinions. Everyone forms their own opinions about a subject. He was no
different in that respect. He also mentioned a number of times that he
was trying to fill a gap. The gap left from all the talks in the groups
about medication, exercise and diet. Diet as in high carb, low carb etc.
Quentin and Annette both studied the individual foods as opposed to the
food groups themselves. They did indeed fill that gap. This has led to a
lot of people developing WOE's that weren't just "eat a lot of protein
and fat" and avoid the starches". That can be nutritional suicide if we
don't evaluate what goes into our mouths.


I find it difficult to believe that people had to be told by someone
else that 'just "eat a lot of protein and fat" and avoid the starches"'
was not sufficient nutritional consideration to give to their eating.

While one might primarily mention the carb/protein/fat ratios when
discussing treatment of diabetes, most of the people in these groups are
not idiots.

PP
--
"What you fail to understand is that criticising established authority by means
of argument and evidence is a crucial aspect of how science works."
- Chris Malcolm
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Old 17-09-2011, 01:32 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Peppermint Patootie" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Ozgirl" wrote:

When Quentin spoke of opinions he was speaking of his opinion of the
studies he had researched over many years. He never had un-researched
opinions. Everyone forms their own opinions about a subject. He was
no
different in that respect. He also mentioned a number of times that
he
was trying to fill a gap. The gap left from all the talks in the
groups
about medication, exercise and diet. Diet as in high carb, low carb
etc.
Quentin and Annette both studied the individual foods as opposed to
the
food groups themselves. They did indeed fill that gap. This has led
to a
lot of people developing WOE's that weren't just "eat a lot of
protein
and fat" and avoid the starches". That can be nutritional suicide if
we
don't evaluate what goes into our mouths.


I find it difficult to believe that people had to be told by someone
else that 'just "eat a lot of protein and fat" and avoid the
starches"'
was not sufficient nutritional consideration to give to their eating.

While one might primarily mention the carb/protein/fat ratios when
discussing treatment of diabetes, most of the people in these groups
are
not idiots.

PP


You don't have to be an idiot to not understand good nutrition.
Especially if new to dietary changes i.e. before one hears what others
are eating. Plus Annette and Quentin took nutrition one step further by
researching foods and their particular benefits, especially to
diabetics, some of who need to make every single bite count if they are
watching carbs very carefully. That's a lot different to being told what
veggies/fruits are low carb/low GI. I'll wager there are a lot of people
who don't know the value of certain low carb veggies over others. That's
the gap I am talking about. And if you recall anything in ASD you should
be able to recall that there have been many discussions about good
nutrition when some people have shared their low carb diets in the
group.

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Old 17-09-2011, 04:04 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Peppermint Patootie" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Ozgirl" wrote:

When Quentin spoke of opinions he was speaking of his opinion of the
studies he had researched over many years. He never had un-researched
opinions. Everyone forms their own opinions about a subject. He was no
different in that respect. He also mentioned a number of times that he
was trying to fill a gap. The gap left from all the talks in the groups
about medication, exercise and diet. Diet as in high carb, low carb etc.
Quentin and Annette both studied the individual foods as opposed to the
food groups themselves. They did indeed fill that gap. This has led to a
lot of people developing WOE's that weren't just "eat a lot of protein
and fat" and avoid the starches". That can be nutritional suicide if we
don't evaluate what goes into our mouths.


I find it difficult to believe that people had to be told by someone
else that 'just "eat a lot of protein and fat" and avoid the starches"'
was not sufficient nutritional consideration to give to their eating.

While one might primarily mention the carb/protein/fat ratios when
discussing treatment of diabetes, most of the people in these groups are
not idiots.


I think the population as a whole hasn't a clue about nutrition. I remember
the big push for chicken back in the 80's. I can't tell you how many people
were bragging about being good and eating chicken while they were munching
on something fried from McDonalds's or KFC or some such place.


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Old 17-09-2011, 04:08 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Ozgirl" wrote in message
...


"Peppermint Patootie" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Ozgirl" wrote:

When Quentin spoke of opinions he was speaking of his opinion of the
studies he had researched over many years. He never had un-researched
opinions. Everyone forms their own opinions about a subject. He was
no
different in that respect. He also mentioned a number of times that
he
was trying to fill a gap. The gap left from all the talks in the
groups
about medication, exercise and diet. Diet as in high carb, low carb
etc.
Quentin and Annette both studied the individual foods as opposed to
the
food groups themselves. They did indeed fill that gap. This has led
to a
lot of people developing WOE's that weren't just "eat a lot of
protein
and fat" and avoid the starches". That can be nutritional suicide if
we
don't evaluate what goes into our mouths.


I find it difficult to believe that people had to be told by someone
else that 'just "eat a lot of protein and fat" and avoid the
starches"'
was not sufficient nutritional consideration to give to their eating.

While one might primarily mention the carb/protein/fat ratios when
discussing treatment of diabetes, most of the people in these groups
are
not idiots.

PP


You don't have to be an idiot to not understand good nutrition.
Especially if new to dietary changes i.e. before one hears what others
are eating. Plus Annette and Quentin took nutrition one step further by
researching foods and their particular benefits, especially to
diabetics, some of who need to make every single bite count if they are
watching carbs very carefully. That's a lot different to being told what
veggies/fruits are low carb/low GI. I'll wager there are a lot of people
who don't know the value of certain low carb veggies over others. That's
the gap I am talking about. And if you recall anything in ASD you should
be able to recall that there have been many discussions about good
nutrition when some people have shared their low carb diets in the
group.


Indeed! Angela and I went to the low carb store again today. Oh and thanks
to the Boston's pizza delivery guy who parked (not in a spot) and directly
behind my van. Of course the guy parked next to me was fast asleep. Had
that spot been open I may have been able to (or maybe not) maneuver my car
over that way so I could have gotten out. So I was stuck sitting there for
close to an hour. I had no clue who the car belonged to or where to go
looking for them. There are all sorts of businesses around there and it is
a shared lot. But I digress...

Anyway, they had a whole aisle of Atkin's products in that store. Many (if
not all) of those things are loaded with soy and probably sugar alcohols.
But I know plenty of people who think they are eating a healthy diet if they
eat those along with their meat. It's sad.


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Old 17-09-2011, 10:19 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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On 9/16/2011 4:23 PM, Peppermint Patootie wrote:
I find it difficult to believe that people had to be told by someone
else that 'just "eat a lot of protein and fat" and avoid the starches"'
was not sufficient nutritional consideration to give to their eating.

While one might primarily mention the carb/protein/fat ratios when
discussing treatment of diabetes, most of the people in these groups are
not idiots.

PP


Hiya PP

You have just made the point................ a lot of people were very
interested in the discussions of which of a wide variety of diets that
expound at present (and over the last 20 yrs and have gone out of 'fashion')

Quentin and Annette did the research into WHY x diet was better than y
diet, and gave you things you really must think about............ things
that don't get PubMeb page as they aren't medicines that can be produced
as 5000% profit!

kate



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Old 17-09-2011, 10:35 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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On 9/16/2011 7:49 PM, Ozgirl wrote:
snip
Now back to the subject at hand.. back when Annette and Quentin were
filling the gap there was a need for it. Maybe less so these days
because a lot of us have done further research and/or do remember the
things Quentin and Annette have said in the long ago past. It was pretty
much a novelty for that kind of talk in the groups back then and a lot
of people over the years have thanked A and Q for that.


yup, i just made this same post

kate
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Old 17-09-2011, 10:37 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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On 9/16/2011 9:04 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
much snipped
I think the population as a whole hasn't a clue about nutrition. I remember
the big push for chicken back in the 80's. I can't tell you how many people
were bragging about being good and eating chicken while they were munching
on something fried from McDonalds's or KFC or some such place.


Julie, do you remember telling Q that you didn't understand what he had
just said, and he would return to the subject until you had an
understanding................. he did this in a polite, friendly,
gentle, kind, sincere, ELOQUENT manner (not shouting, i will ever
respect Quentin as being ever so Eloquent!)

kate


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Old 17-09-2011, 12:37 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Ozgirl wrote:


: "Peppermint Patootie" wrote in message
: news : In article ,
: "Ozgirl" wrote:
:
: When Quentin spoke of opinions he was speaking of his opinion of the
: studies he had researched over many years. He never had un-researched
: opinions. Everyone forms their own opinions about a subject. He was
: no
: different in that respect. He also mentioned a number of times that
: he
: was trying to fill a gap. The gap left from all the talks in the
: groups
: about medication, exercise and diet. Diet as in high carb, low carb
: etc.
: Quentin and Annette both studied the individual foods as opposed to
: the
: food groups themselves. They did indeed fill that gap. This has led
: to a
: lot of people developing WOE's that weren't just "eat a lot of
: protein
: and fat" and avoid the starches". That can be nutritional suicide if
: we
: don't evaluate what goes into our mouths.
:
: I find it difficult to believe that people had to be told by someone
: else that 'just "eat a lot of protein and fat" and avoid the
: starches"'
: was not sufficient nutritional consideration to give to their eating.
:
: While one might primarily mention the carb/protein/fat ratios when
: discussing treatment of diabetes, most of the people in these groups
: are
: not idiots.
:
: PP

: You don't have to be an idiot to not understand good nutrition.
: Especially if new to dietary changes i.e. before one hears what others
: are eating. Plus Annette and Quentin took nutrition one step further by
: researching foods and their particular benefits, especially to
: diabetics, some of who need to make every single bite count if they are
: watching carbs very carefully. That's a lot different to being told what
: veggies/fruits are low carb/low GI. I'll wager there are a lot of people
: who don't know the value of certain low carb veggies over others. That's
: the gap I am talking about. And if you recall anything in ASD you should
: be able to recall that there have been many discussions about good
: nutrition when some people have shared their low carb diets in the
: group.

Every time I eat my hambutger at a local restauant with no bun, sliced red
onions, a bed of lettuce , a little ketchup adn a pickle I think of
Quentin and quercetin, which he often mentioned as being in that red
onion.

The general advice that I received when finding my diabetic WOE was to eat
a wde variety of freen and colored lnon-starchy vebetables, not only leafy
one, but all kinds of peppers, crucfeous ones, etc. What is a shame is
that there seems to be no spac onf ASD these days for such advice or
comments what with the constant arguing. I fear that newbies don't get
what they need about the vegetably diet that marked the lower carb diet
so many of us found so useful. It works and made so many of us well
controlled and healthy, bu tnow seems to alwasy be codemnedby ssorted
people.

We all had different ways of working this, from Jana's 6 small meals
which spread her carbs out and included all kinds of vegetables, to Alan's
low spike, wiwth his belived meusli at night,etc. Where have all these
useful discussions gone?

Wendy

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Old 17-09-2011, 12:43 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Julie Bove wrote:

: "Ozgirl" wrote in message
: ...
:
:
: "Peppermint Patootie" wrote in message
: news : In article ,
: "Ozgirl" wrote:
:
: When Quentin spoke of opinions he was speaking of his opinion of the
: studies he had researched over many years. He never had un-researched
: opinions. Everyone forms their own opinions about a subject. He was
: no
: different in that respect. He also mentioned a number of times that
: he
: was trying to fill a gap. The gap left from all the talks in the
: groups
: about medication, exercise and diet. Diet as in high carb, low carb
: etc.
: Quentin and Annette both studied the individual foods as opposed to
: the
: food groups themselves. They did indeed fill that gap. This has led
: to a
: lot of people developing WOE's that weren't just "eat a lot of
: protein
: and fat" and avoid the starches". That can be nutritional suicide if
: we
: don't evaluate what goes into our mouths.
:
: I find it difficult to believe that people had to be told by someone
: else that 'just "eat a lot of protein and fat" and avoid the
: starches"'
: was not sufficient nutritional consideration to give to their eating.
:
: While one might primarily mention the carb/protein/fat ratios when
: discussing treatment of diabetes, most of the people in these groups
: are
: not idiots.
:
: PP
:
: You don't have to be an idiot to not understand good nutrition.
: Especially if new to dietary changes i.e. before one hears what others
: are eating. Plus Annette and Quentin took nutrition one step further by
: researching foods and their particular benefits, especially to
: diabetics, some of who need to make every single bite count if they are
: watching carbs very carefully. That's a lot different to being told what
: veggies/fruits are low carb/low GI. I'll wager there are a lot of people
: who don't know the value of certain low carb veggies over others. That's
: the gap I am talking about. And if you recall anything in ASD you should
: be able to recall that there have been many discussions about good
: nutrition when some people have shared their low carb diets in the
: group.

: Indeed! Angela and I went to the low carb store again today. Oh and thanks
: to the Boston's pizza delivery guy who parked (not in a spot) and directly
: behind my van. Of course the guy parked next to me was fast asleep. Had
: that spot been open I may have been able to (or maybe not) maneuver my car
: over that way so I could have gotten out. So I was stuck sitting there for
: close to an hour. I had no clue who the car belonged to or where to go
: looking for them. There are all sorts of businesses around there and it is
: a shared lot. But I digress...

: Anyway, they had a whole aisle of Atkin's products in that store. Many (if
: not all) of those things are loaded with soy and probably sugar alcohols.
: But I know plenty of people who think they are eating a healthy diet if they
: eat those along with their meat. It's sad.

I find the pancake mix very good and useful to me a a treat breakfast .
Of course, it uses a fresh egg whichis out for you, Julie, but having a
litle of that kind of thing really helps maintain a life-lone diabetic
diet for many. Soy is also not a problem for me and I often like to get a
tofu dish when I treat myself to a Chinese lunch out at my favortie place
that knows to make my food without cornstarch or sugar and, althugh they
no longer usually serve it, bring me a full pot of tea, because they know
I like it. For many of us they can be a help. I con't look for all those
protein bars, etc, but some of the special stuff can be nice to have
available. Also useufl for transitioning from a regular diet to a lower
carb one.

Wendy

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Old 17-09-2011, 12:48 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Kisses filled with air

Tiger Lily wrote:
: On 9/16/2011 9:04 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
: much snipped
: I think the population as a whole hasn't a clue about nutrition. I remember
: the big push for chicken back in the 80's. I can't tell you how many people
: were bragging about being good and eating chicken while they were munching
: on something fried from McDonalds's or KFC or some such place.

: Julie, do you remember telling Q that you didn't understand what he had
: just said, and he would return to the subject until you had an
: understanding................. he did this in a polite, friendly,
: gentle, kind, sincere, ELOQUENT manner (not shouting, i will ever
: respect Quentin as being ever so Eloquent!)

: kate

Remember, he had spent many years teaching difficult subjects and
eveninlaer years, when quite ill, he continued to tutor srudents. that is
what he did on the group, as well.

Wendy



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