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Old 06-09-2010, 04:06 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings


"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...

I think I will be better off using the rye matzo, not least because now
if it works I will have a use for all the halves left over from the
Shabbos meals. (The psak I got was to eat the Ashkenazi version of a
kezayis, which is half a machine matzo, and consider the other food in
the meal to be aggregated with it to get up to the amount needed to be
able to wash with a brocho and bentsh afterwards. Sephardim and
Lubavitch hold a kezayis is a whole machine matzo.) Another reason is
that it doesn't set off further carb cravings.


The word "Kezayis" means like an olive, so the piece should be the size of
an olive. As far as I know, neither the Ashkenazim nor the Sephardim
require one to eat anything that would be bad for their health. I think
this is a shaila for a personal rabbi who understands your medical needs.

Just my opinion.

So paskins rav Janet :-)


Correct, it is not required to eat anything that would be injurious to one's
health.

I have been trying to find a way to still be able to wash for bread, with
the blessing, and say the full grace after meals, on the sabbath, without
losing control of my BG, because it just doesn't feel "shabbosdik" to me to
not do this. I don't care if I don't eat bread during the week.

The halacha is, to make the blessing on the bread and say the full grace
after meals, a kezayis of bread (based on the halachic definition of bread,
which is also different depending what custom one follows, but all have in
common that the dough must include one or more of wheat / rye / spelt / oats
/ barley and be made with water) must be eaten. To additionally say the
blessing on washing the hands prior to blessing and eating the bread, two
kzeisim (= a beitzah) must be eaten.

Kezayis is not defined by what you or I might think based on the grammar.
Most Ashkenazi rabbis posken that a kezayis is the amount equal to the
volume of a fluid ounce. Most Sephardim, as well as Lubavitch, posken that
a kezayis is the weight of an ounce.

I did ask a shaila, and above I explained the answer I got, see the sentence
beginning with "The psak I got was". The answer was further explained as
being based on the Magen Avraham.



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Old 06-09-2010, 04:50 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings

Ellen K. wrote:

: "Janet Wilder" wrote in message
: ...
:
: I think I will be better off using the rye matzo, not least because now
: if it works I will have a use for all the halves left over from the
: Shabbos meals. (The psak I got was to eat the Ashkenazi version of a
: kezayis, which is half a machine matzo, and consider the other food in
: the meal to be aggregated with it to get up to the amount needed to be
: able to wash with a brocho and bentsh afterwards. Sephardim and
: Lubavitch hold a kezayis is a whole machine matzo.) Another reason is
: that it doesn't set off further carb cravings.
:
: The word "Kezayis" means like an olive, so the piece should be the size of
: an olive. As far as I know, neither the Ashkenazim nor the Sephardim
: require one to eat anything that would be bad for their health. I think
: this is a shaila for a personal rabbi who understands your medical needs.
:
: Just my opinion.
:
: So paskins rav Janet :-)

: Correct, it is not required to eat anything that would be injurious to one's
: health.

: I have been trying to find a way to still be able to wash for bread, with
: the blessing, and say the full grace after meals, on the sabbath, without
: losing control of my BG, because it just doesn't feel "shabbosdik" to me to
: not do this. I don't care if I don't eat bread during the week.

: The halacha is, to make the blessing on the bread and say the full grace
: after meals, a kezayis of bread (based on the halachic definition of bread,
: which is also different depending what custom one follows, but all have in
: common that the dough must include one or more of wheat / rye / spelt / oats
: / barley and be made with water) must be eaten. To additionally say the
: blessing on washing the hands prior to blessing and eating the bread, two
: kzeisim (= a beitzah) must be eaten.

: Kezayis is not defined by what you or I might think based on the grammar.
: Most Ashkenazi rabbis posken that a kezayis is the amount equal to the
: volume of a fluid ounce. Most Sephardim, as well as Lubavitch, posken that
: a kezayis is the weight of an ounce.

: I did ask a shaila, and above I explained the answer I got, see the sentence
: beginning with "The psak I got was". The answer was further explained as
: being based on the Magen Avraham.

My husband anand I used to split one challah roll, with me takign the
smaller"half. I now throw out the larger half. I either make or buy
whole wheat one.

Wendy

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Old 06-09-2010, 05:20 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings



"Julie Bove" wrote in message
...

"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...

We gave up on the exchange business years ago. It was impossible for
my DH to comprehend. We went back to Diabetes School and learned
"carb counting" and it was like a miracle. His weight went down, his
A1C went down and he started to enjoy his food instead of worrying
about what it was doing to him.


I don't understand why people think it is difficult. It is really no
different than carb counting except that there is less math to do.
They're really pretty much the same thing. I don't technically do the
carb counting because I don't like to do all that adding. It's just
far easier for me to think in terms of 1, 2 or 3 servings of whatever
the carb is. The Exchange Plan has never caused me to worry.


I don't count carbs per se, as in looking up carbs in a book. I would
try a piece of bread and if too high then try 1/2 a slice next time etc.
With the exchange system, to me, it is easy to swap 1 piece of bread for
2 rye crackers or whatever. The exchange lists I have seen have always
provided a list of alternatives (and amounts) for each carb serve. Was
never anything that needed weighing but stuff like milk, cereal etc
needed measuring cups, which I always have inthe house anyway. Once you
do it a few times though you get to eyeball it.




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Old 06-09-2010, 06:43 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings


"W. Baker" wrote in message
...
Ellen K. wrote:

: "Janet Wilder" wrote in message
: ...
:
: I think I will be better off using the rye matzo, not least because
now
: if it works I will have a use for all the halves left over from the
: Shabbos meals. (The psak I got was to eat the Ashkenazi version of a
: kezayis, which is half a machine matzo, and consider the other food
in
: the meal to be aggregated with it to get up to the amount needed to
be
: able to wash with a brocho and bentsh afterwards. Sephardim and
: Lubavitch hold a kezayis is a whole machine matzo.) Another reason is
: that it doesn't set off further carb cravings.
:
: The word "Kezayis" means like an olive, so the piece should be the
size of
: an olive. As far as I know, neither the Ashkenazim nor the Sephardim
: require one to eat anything that would be bad for their health. I
think
: this is a shaila for a personal rabbi who understands your medical
needs.
:
: Just my opinion.
:
: So paskins rav Janet :-)

: Correct, it is not required to eat anything that would be injurious to
one's
: health.

: I have been trying to find a way to still be able to wash for bread,
with
: the blessing, and say the full grace after meals, on the sabbath,
without
: losing control of my BG, because it just doesn't feel "shabbosdik" to me
to
: not do this. I don't care if I don't eat bread during the week.

: The halacha is, to make the blessing on the bread and say the full grace
: after meals, a kezayis of bread (based on the halachic definition of
bread,
: which is also different depending what custom one follows, but all have
in
: common that the dough must include one or more of wheat / rye / spelt /
oats
: / barley and be made with water) must be eaten. To additionally say the
: blessing on washing the hands prior to blessing and eating the bread,
two
: kzeisim (= a beitzah) must be eaten.

: Kezayis is not defined by what you or I might think based on the
grammar.
: Most Ashkenazi rabbis posken that a kezayis is the amount equal to the
: volume of a fluid ounce. Most Sephardim, as well as Lubavitch, posken
that
: a kezayis is the weight of an ounce.

: I did ask a shaila, and above I explained the answer I got, see the
sentence
: beginning with "The psak I got was". The answer was further explained
as
: being based on the Magen Avraham.

My husband anand I used to split one challah roll, with me takign the
smaller"half. I now throw out the larger half. I either make or buy
whole wheat one.

Wendy


Most commercial "challah rolls" I have seen here are a little over 2 oz, so
a half of one would give you a kezayis according to the Sephardim, and
almost certainly more than a kezayis according to the Ashkenazim. I found
an article where it explains how to calculate it according to the Ashkenazim
but haven't concentrated on it yet, I was using half a whole-wheat pita for
a few weeks, which was also one ounce. This week I used half a machine
matzo, which is only about half an ounce (and half the carbs). Which brings
us back to the starting point of this conversation, if eating a quarter of
one in the morning kills the DP, then I'm great because I'll have a use for
all the leftover half-matzos from the Shabbos meals.

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Old 06-09-2010, 02:50 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings

On 9/5/2010 11:20 PM, Ozgirl wrote:


"Julie Bove" wrote in message
...

"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...

We gave up on the exchange business years ago. It was impossible for
my DH to comprehend. We went back to Diabetes School and learned
"carb counting" and it was like a miracle. His weight went down, his
A1C went down and he started to enjoy his food instead of worrying
about what it was doing to him.


I don't understand why people think it is difficult. It is really no
different than carb counting except that there is less math to do.
They're really pretty much the same thing. I don't technically do the
carb counting because I don't like to do all that adding. It's just
far easier for me to think in terms of 1, 2 or 3 servings of whatever
the carb is. The Exchange Plan has never caused me to worry.


I don't count carbs per se, as in looking up carbs in a book. I would
try a piece of bread and if too high then try 1/2 a slice next time etc.
With the exchange system, to me, it is easy to swap 1 piece of bread for
2 rye crackers or whatever. The exchange lists I have seen have always
provided a list of alternatives (and amounts) for each carb serve. Was
never anything that needed weighing but stuff like milk, cereal etc
needed measuring cups, which I always have inthe house anyway. Once you
do it a few times though you get to eyeball it.




He just never could comprehend the exchange system. I think it
intimidated him. It intimidates a lot of people and that is why they
came out with carb counting. Many people, especially those who are not
kitchen cognizant, have much more success on this plan. It doesn't just
count carbs, it also teaches you how to scale portions of protein and
limit fat. I think it's much more about portion control and learning how
to recognize a portion without weighing everything. You have to admit
the exchange diet is very "weight" intense. (Which might be what scares
people)

I also have a app in my Android phone now that is for dieters, but it
gives the nutritional value of lots of stuff and especially chain
restaurant food. I look things up for him so he has an accurate count
for his pump.

When he learned carb counting, all he had to do was read a label. He
learned about carby vegetables. He learned about milk and fruit, etc.
After a while it became easy to "eye-ball" a serving and determine the
carbs. He needs to count carbs for his insulin pump, too.



--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.


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Old 06-09-2010, 05:55 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings

Ellen K. wrote:

: "W. Baker" wrote in message
: ...
: Ellen K. wrote:
:
: : Correct, it is not required to eat anything that would be injurious to
: one's
: : health.
:
: : I have been trying to find a way to still be able to wash for bread,
: with
: : the blessing, and say the full grace after meals, on the sabbath,
: without
: : losing control of my BG, because it just doesn't feel "shabbosdik" to me
: to
: : not do this. I don't care if I don't eat bread during the week.
:
: : The halacha is, to make the blessing on the bread and say the full grace
: : after meals, a kezayis of bread (based on the halachic definition of
: bread,
: : which is also different depending what custom one follows, but all have
: in
: : common that the dough must include one or more of wheat / rye / spelt /
: oats
: : / barley and be made with water) must be eaten. To additionally say the
: : blessing on washing the hands prior to blessing and eating the bread,
: two
: : kzeisim (= a beitzah) must be eaten.

When you go to a kosher restaurant or when there is a dinner at the shul
or a wedding or other catered aaffair, there is a hand washing station
that has a bowl of small pieces of bread or those little tiny round disks
of bread for you to eat for our motzi and that qualifies you for the
bentching. This loos like much less than your half a cheet of rye matzo.
maybe your shul is more machmir than my Orthodox one in NYC, but I wonder.
No one ever told me to eat more than a pinch of the roll at a Friday night
shul dinner. I am truely puzzled. i know thaat at Pesach there are all
kinds of minimums for assorted symbolic foods, and the Jewish Diabetes
Organization gives some vry small, permissible leser quantities for those
with diabetes that are accepted. I suggest o look at that group.

Wendy
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Old 06-09-2010, 09:29 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings

"W. Baker" wrote in message
...
Ellen K. wrote:

: "W. Baker" wrote in message
: ...
: Ellen K. wrote:
:
: : Correct, it is not required to eat anything that would be injurious
to
: one's
: : health.
:
: : I have been trying to find a way to still be able to wash for bread,
: with
: : the blessing, and say the full grace after meals, on the sabbath,
: without
: : losing control of my BG, because it just doesn't feel "shabbosdik"
to me
: to
: : not do this. I don't care if I don't eat bread during the week.
:
: : The halacha is, to make the blessing on the bread and say the full
grace
: : after meals, a kezayis of bread (based on the halachic definition of
: bread,
: : which is also different depending what custom one follows, but all
have
: in
: : common that the dough must include one or more of wheat / rye /
spelt /
: oats
: : / barley and be made with water) must be eaten. To additionally say
the
: : blessing on washing the hands prior to blessing and eating the
bread,
: two
: : kzeisim (= a beitzah) must be eaten.

When you go to a kosher restaurant or when there is a dinner at the shul
or a wedding or other catered aaffair, there is a hand washing station
that has a bowl of small pieces of bread or those little tiny round disks
of bread for you to eat for our motzi and that qualifies you for the
bentching.


It does NOT qualify you for the bentshing unless maybe those little pieces
are an Ashkenazi kezayis (which is possible). The idea of the bowl with the
little pieces is to have as little time as possible elapse between a)
finishing the washing and b) making the motzi and eating bread. One is
expected to eat the regular bread at one's table on returning there.

This loos like much less than your half a cheet of rye matzo.


The way the Ashkenazim figure it, the size of the pieces that could be a
kezayis varies a LOT for different types of bread. I saw an article about
it with examples that honestly made no sense to me, but I admit that I did
not spend a lot of time trying to figure out how they got those results.

maybe your shul is more machmir than my Orthodox one in NYC, but I wonder.
No one ever told me to eat more than a pinch of the roll at a Friday night
shul dinner.


It could be that nobody was paying attention to how much bread you ate. Or
nobody thought it was their business to tell you such a thing. Or the
people you were sitting with didn't know themselves. If you asked your
rabbi the specific question you might get a different answer.

I am truely puzzled. i know thaat at Pesach there are all
kinds of minimums for assorted symbolic foods,


Yes, there is a requirement of a kezayis of matzo for several times when
matzo is eaten during the seder, I think one of the times it is supposed to
be two kzeisim. The other required foods also each have a required amount.
Again, the required amount is measured differently by Ashkenazim and
Sephardim.

and the Jewish Diabetes
Organization gives some vry small, permissible leser quantities for those
with diabetes that are accepted. I suggest o look at that group.


I read the material on their site. They are using the Ashkenazi method of
calculation, and without even mentioning that Sephardim hold differently. I
think most people don't realize there is a difference in this matter, I
certainly had no idea until I delved into it, as far as I knew a kezayis was
an ounce.

Just to be clear here, I am not telling you you are doing anything wrong. I
only explained the situation in the first place because Janet seemed to be
telling me *I* shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.

Hope that helps.

Wendy


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Old 06-09-2010, 09:41 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings


"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...
On 9/5/2010 11:20 PM, Ozgirl wrote:


"Julie Bove" wrote in message
...

"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...

We gave up on the exchange business years ago. It was impossible for
my DH to comprehend. We went back to Diabetes School and learned
"carb counting" and it was like a miracle. His weight went down, his
A1C went down and he started to enjoy his food instead of worrying
about what it was doing to him.

I don't understand why people think it is difficult. It is really no
different than carb counting except that there is less math to do.
They're really pretty much the same thing. I don't technically do the
carb counting because I don't like to do all that adding. It's just
far easier for me to think in terms of 1, 2 or 3 servings of whatever
the carb is. The Exchange Plan has never caused me to worry.


I don't count carbs per se, as in looking up carbs in a book. I would
try a piece of bread and if too high then try 1/2 a slice next time etc.
With the exchange system, to me, it is easy to swap 1 piece of bread for
2 rye crackers or whatever. The exchange lists I have seen have always
provided a list of alternatives (and amounts) for each carb serve. Was
never anything that needed weighing but stuff like milk, cereal etc
needed measuring cups, which I always have inthe house anyway. Once you
do it a few times though you get to eyeball it.




He just never could comprehend the exchange system. I think it intimidated
him. It intimidates a lot of people and that is why they came out with
carb counting. Many people, especially those who are not kitchen
cognizant, have much more success on this plan. It doesn't just count
carbs, it also teaches you how to scale portions of protein and limit fat.
I think it's much more about portion control and learning how to recognize
a portion without weighing everything. You have to admit the exchange
diet is very "weight" intense. (Which might be what scares people)

I also have a app in my Android phone now that is for dieters, but it
gives the nutritional value of lots of stuff and especially chain
restaurant food. I look things up for him so he has an accurate count for
his pump.

When he learned carb counting, all he had to do was read a label. He
learned about carby vegetables. He learned about milk and fruit, etc.
After a while it became easy to "eye-ball" a serving and determine the
carbs. He needs to count carbs for his insulin pump, too.


All you have to do with The Exchange Plan is read a label too. And it is
still being used.


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Old 06-09-2010, 10:04 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings

On 9/6/2010 11:55 AM, W. Baker wrote:
Ellen wrote:

: "W. wrote in message
: ...
: Ellen wrote:
:
: : Correct, it is not required to eat anything that would be injurious to
: one's
: : health.
:
: : I have been trying to find a way to still be able to wash for bread,
: with
: : the blessing, and say the full grace after meals, on the sabbath,
: without
: : losing control of my BG, because it just doesn't feel "shabbosdik" to me
: to
: : not do this. I don't care if I don't eat bread during the week.
:
: : The halacha is, to make the blessing on the bread and say the full grace
: : after meals, a kezayis of bread (based on the halachic definition of
: bread,
: : which is also different depending what custom one follows, but all have
: in
: : common that the dough must include one or more of wheat / rye / spelt /
: oats
: : / barley and be made with water) must be eaten. To additionally say the
: : blessing on washing the hands prior to blessing and eating the bread,
: two
: : kzeisim (= a beitzah) must be eaten.

When you go to a kosher restaurant or when there is a dinner at the shul
or a wedding or other catered aaffair, there is a hand washing station
that has a bowl of small pieces of bread or those little tiny round disks
of bread for you to eat for our motzi and that qualifies you for the
bentching. This loos like much less than your half a cheet of rye matzo.
maybe your shul is more machmir than my Orthodox one in NYC, but I wonder.
No one ever told me to eat more than a pinch of the roll at a Friday night
shul dinner. I am truely puzzled. i know thaat at Pesach there are all
kinds of minimums for assorted symbolic foods, and the Jewish Diabetes
Organization gives some vry small, permissible leser quantities for those
with diabetes that are accepted. I suggest o look at that group.

Wendy


I grew up with a diabetic mother and two diabetic aunts. All were
daughters (and sisters) of a rabbi. The amount of bred they had to eat
for hamotzi and bentchen was the size of an olive. That's a little ball
of bread. Pesach was a square of matzo about 4" x 4" to satisfy the
commandment.

Ellen, if you are so worried about the carbs in the bread your rebbe
says you need to eat, cut out some of the other carbs in your meal.



--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.
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Old 06-09-2010, 10:16 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings

On 9/6/2010 3:29 PM, Ellen K. wrote:

Just to be clear here, I am not telling you you are doing anything
wrong. I only explained the situation in the first place because Janet
seemed to be telling me *I* shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.


Ellen, that is definitely not what I meant.

I grew up in an orthodox home. My mother is the daughter of a rabbi. My
uncle was a rabbi who had smicha from rav Cook in then Palestine. My dad
was a schochet. His rav was Rav Moshe Feinstein. My dad was also a
talmudic scholar and a whole bunch of impressive rabunim from NYC
showed up at his funeral and pronounced him a lamed vavnik. I attended
Yeshiva through my Junior year of high school. I have an education as
well as a yichus.

I am aware of the differences in interpretation between Ashkenazis and
Sephardim, but I do know that neither wants people to get sick
fulfilling a mitzvah. My mother was insulin dependent and it was more of
a sin for her to fast on Yom Kippur than it was to eat. As much as she
hated doing it, she understood that she had to eat and couldn't fast
because fasting would make her sick and that was a sin.

G-d doesn't want people to harm themselves worshiping. The primary
directive for *all* Jews is "above all choose life". I am sure that if
you told your rabbi that you had a medical reason for not being able to
eat enough bread or matzoh, he could figure something out for you.
That was what I meant in my post.

I hope you can forgive me.


--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.


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Old 06-09-2010, 10:19 PM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings

On 9/6/2010 3:41 PM, Julie Bove wrote:

All you have to do with The Exchange Plan is read a label too. And it is
still being used.

Glad it works for you, Julie, but I know too many people who are
diagnosed diabetics who get a sheet of paper with the exchange diet and
a bottle of pills. They stop putting sugar in their coffee and drink
diet soda and haven't a clue as to how they are supposed to eat because
that diet *does* intimidate people.

It is still used, but the diabetes publications we get here indicate
that carb counting is becoming much more popular in the education programs.



--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.
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Old 07-09-2010, 12:18 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...
On 9/5/2010 11:20 PM, Ozgirl wrote:


"Julie Bove" wrote in message
...

"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...

We gave up on the exchange business years ago. It was impossible
for
my DH to comprehend. We went back to Diabetes School and learned
"carb counting" and it was like a miracle. His weight went down,
his
A1C went down and he started to enjoy his food instead of worrying
about what it was doing to him.

I don't understand why people think it is difficult. It is really no
different than carb counting except that there is less math to do.
They're really pretty much the same thing. I don't technically do
the
carb counting because I don't like to do all that adding. It's just
far easier for me to think in terms of 1, 2 or 3 servings of
whatever
the carb is. The Exchange Plan has never caused me to worry.


I don't count carbs per se, as in looking up carbs in a book. I would
try a piece of bread and if too high then try 1/2 a slice next time
etc.
With the exchange system, to me, it is easy to swap 1 piece of bread
for
2 rye crackers or whatever. The exchange lists I have seen have
always
provided a list of alternatives (and amounts) for each carb serve.
Was
never anything that needed weighing but stuff like milk, cereal etc
needed measuring cups, which I always have inthe house anyway. Once
you
do it a few times though you get to eyeball it.




He just never could comprehend the exchange system. I think it
intimidated him. It intimidates a lot of people and that is why they
came out with carb counting. Many people, especially those who are not
kitchen cognizant, have much more success on this plan. It doesn't
just count carbs, it also teaches you how to scale portions of protein
and limit fat. I think it's much more about portion control and
learning how to recognize a portion without weighing everything. You
have to admit the exchange diet is very "weight" intense. (Which might
be what scares people)


Then that is nothing like the exchange diet I was given. In the starches
list for example it might say 1 x 30 gr slice grain bread or 2 weetbix
or 3 ryvita crackers etc. You knew by the label on the bread pack
whether your bread was a 30 gr or 45 gr slice.

For protein it was things like 2 eggs or a palm sized piece of steak or
a 1 inch cube of cheese etc. Things like milk would be stated as 200
mls milk or 1 cup, all easy to do with a measuring jug or cups. Fruit
was one small banana, 1 orange, 3 apricots, 10 medium strawberries etc.
They also had a good, better, best list. The foods were also listed in
3 different lists according to fibre. Like 1 cup of rice bubbles in the
good list and in the best list was porridge and the like. All were
"acceptable" exchanges but some foods were better choices than others.

WW on the other hand ... going back 35 years... everything had to
weighed and measured, even the bread slices. Sometimes I would have to
cut a portion of the bread off to get 30 gr.



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Old 07-09-2010, 12:48 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings


"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...
On 9/6/2010 3:41 PM, Julie Bove wrote:

All you have to do with The Exchange Plan is read a label too. And it is
still being used.

Glad it works for you, Julie, but I know too many people who are diagnosed
diabetics who get a sheet of paper with the exchange diet and a bottle of
pills. They stop putting sugar in their coffee and drink diet soda and
haven't a clue as to how they are supposed to eat because that diet *does*
intimidate people.

It is still used, but the diabetes publications we get here indicate that
carb counting is becoming much more popular in the education programs.


Could be that they just left me on it because that is what I already know.
The last dietician I saw said there wasn't really anything she could tell me
that I didn't already know. Except that she told me I should eat lunch
every day. I have since spoken to my Dr. about it and no longer do on most
days. The only time I do eat something (and it's usually a snack) is if my
dinner goes beyond 8:00. I shudder to think of how much weight I would have
gained had I started eating three meals a day again.


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Old 07-09-2010, 05:38 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings

Janet,

I believe you have misunderstood me.

1. I have a rov.

2. I asked a shaila.

3. The shaila was not whether I have to eat bread.

4. The shaila was, given my diabetes, what is the minimum quantity of bread
I could eat and still be able to wash with the blessing and say the full
grace after meals.

5. The answer was that I can eat the amount the Ashkenazim consider a
kezayis, which is far less than what is considered a kezayis by the shita I
follow, and pursuant to the Magen Avraham the other food can be considered
to be aggregated to it to make up a beitzah.

6. If it would turn out that I can't even tolerate that amount, I do not
have to eat bread at all, however then I cannot wash with the blessing or
say the full grace after meals.

7. Ergo, my rov is not telling me to endanger my health.

Thank you,

Ellen

"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...
On 9/6/2010 3:29 PM, Ellen K. wrote:

Just to be clear here, I am not telling you you are doing anything
wrong. I only explained the situation in the first place because Janet
seemed to be telling me *I* shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.


Ellen, that is definitely not what I meant.

I grew up in an orthodox home. My mother is the daughter of a rabbi. My
uncle was a rabbi who had smicha from rav Cook in then Palestine. My dad
was a schochet. His rav was Rav Moshe Feinstein. My dad was also a
talmudic scholar and a whole bunch of impressive rabunim from NYC showed
up at his funeral and pronounced him a lamed vavnik. I attended Yeshiva
through my Junior year of high school. I have an education as well as a
yichus.

I am aware of the differences in interpretation between Ashkenazis and
Sephardim, but I do know that neither wants people to get sick fulfilling
a mitzvah. My mother was insulin dependent and it was more of a sin for
her to fast on Yom Kippur than it was to eat. As much as she hated doing
it, she understood that she had to eat and couldn't fast because fasting
would make her sick and that was a sin.

G-d doesn't want people to harm themselves worshiping. The primary
directive for *all* Jews is "above all choose life". I am sure that if
you told your rabbi that you had a medical reason for not being able to
eat enough bread or matzoh, he could figure something out for you. That
was what I meant in my post.

I hope you can forgive me.


--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.


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Old 07-09-2010, 06:09 AM posted to alt.food.diabetic
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Default Ellen's breakfast vis-?-vis morning readings

Janet,

Your family experience may be prescriptive for you. It is not prescriptive
for me.

If you are interested to learn more about the issues I mentioned, here are
two url's you can look at:

http://www.friendswithdiabetes.org/guides.html - download the pdf Tishrei
5764 part 2 in the Tishrei section. This is written from the (litvishe)
Ashkenazi standpoint, does not mention that anyone else holds differently,
and includes in a box on page 2 some examples of how big a kezayis is for
different bread types according to this shita.

http://www.berachot.org/halacha/13_shiurkazayis.html
The first part of this goes into quite some detail about the (litvishe)
Ashkenazi method of calculating a kezayis. Toward the bottom of the page
the Sephardi method is discussed. Near the top they also have a diagram
illustrating how different a kezayis looks depending on the original shape
of the food, i.e. a kezayis of matzo looks a lot bigger (still by the
Ashkenazi method). In the middle of the page are detailed explanations of
how to calculate a kezayis for different shapes of foods according to the
Ashkenazi shita.

Here are a few important sentences from this article, which the author notes
are summarized from Rav Bodner's "Halachos of K'zayis":

"if someone ate less then a k'zayis of bread he is not required, nor
PERMITED to bentch."

"Knowing how much food equals k'zayis is not an easy matter. A k'zayis is a
measure of volume. (Volume - the amount of space the item occupies). Two
items which when measured have the same volume; will often not be perceived
as such."
"The Mishna Berura and most Poskim rule that with regard to brocha achrona
we adopt the most stringent view, not to make a brocha achrona unless one
ate an amount equal to an egg."

Thank you,

Ellen




"Janet Wilder" wrote in message
...
On 9/6/2010 11:55 AM, W. Baker wrote:
Ellen wrote:

: "W. wrote in message
: ...
: Ellen wrote:
:
: : Correct, it is not required to eat anything that would be injurious
to
: one's
: : health.
:
: : I have been trying to find a way to still be able to wash for
bread,
: with
: : the blessing, and say the full grace after meals, on the sabbath,
: without
: : losing control of my BG, because it just doesn't feel "shabbosdik"
to me
: to
: : not do this. I don't care if I don't eat bread during the week.
:
: : The halacha is, to make the blessing on the bread and say the full
grace
: : after meals, a kezayis of bread (based on the halachic definition
of
: bread,
: : which is also different depending what custom one follows, but all
have
: in
: : common that the dough must include one or more of wheat / rye /
spelt /
: oats
: : / barley and be made with water) must be eaten. To additionally
say the
: : blessing on washing the hands prior to blessing and eating the
bread,
: two
: : kzeisim (= a beitzah) must be eaten.

When you go to a kosher restaurant or when there is a dinner at the shul
or a wedding or other catered aaffair, there is a hand washing station
that has a bowl of small pieces of bread or those little tiny round disks
of bread for you to eat for our motzi and that qualifies you for the
bentching. This loos like much less than your half a cheet of rye matzo.
maybe your shul is more machmir than my Orthodox one in NYC, but I
wonder.
No one ever told me to eat more than a pinch of the roll at a Friday
night
shul dinner. I am truely puzzled. i know thaat at Pesach there are all
kinds of minimums for assorted symbolic foods, and the Jewish Diabetes
Organization gives some vry small, permissible leser quantities for those
with diabetes that are accepted. I suggest o look at that group.

Wendy


I grew up with a diabetic mother and two diabetic aunts. All were
daughters (and sisters) of a rabbi. The amount of bred they had to eat for
hamotzi and bentchen was the size of an olive. That's a little ball of
bread. Pesach was a square of matzo about 4" x 4" to satisfy the
commandment.

Ellen, if you are so worried about the carbs in the bread your rebbe says
you need to eat, cut out some of the other carbs in your meal.



--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.




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