yeah i take metformin and glipizide..i was told to take 1000 m met and 20
glipi twice a day and was going as low as 38 by the time i tested.
I currently am reduced to 500 met once a day and 5 mg glipi or less a day
depending on how my body is reacting.
When i was taking the big amount i was having days where i was lucky to get
to 70 no matter what i ate..it was scary.
Now im always between 80-100 with a occasional 120 after meals..which where
i feel the best.

KROM

"Jackie Patti" > wrote in message
...
> Chris Malcolm wrote:
>
>> Exactly. The danger of getting onto a reactive hypoglycemia roller
>> coaster is a real danger for non-insulin using T2 who still have good
>> second phase insulin responses left, and one that doesn't exist for
>> insulin users. Whereas insulin users have to avoid the risk of serious
>> medical emergency lows, a danger that doesn't exist for many
>> non-insulin using T2s. Quite different dangers, with quite different
>> appropriate remedies to avoid them.
>
> It's not just injected insulin; a lot of T2s take pancreas-stimulating
> medications also. Then a hypo can be just as serious... your body doesn't
> distinguish between homemade insulin vs. the injected stuff.
>
> --
> http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

<BlueBrooke> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:50:06 GMT, "Helen Back"
> > wrote:
>>
>>"Kurt" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> But I would encourage anyone, other than the geniuses in
>>> here who think they know more than doctors, to consult with their
>>> doctor about how they should treat a hypo if they have one.
>>
>> Exactly why I ask you in another thread what you would do IF you didnt
>> have
>> a doctor or professional trained in diabetes.
>
> You're not likely to get an answer to that question from him, Helen.
> In Kurt's perfect world, all diabetics are treated by a team of highly
> educated and competent doctors, nutritionists, dieticians, nurses,
> etc. The only way it could get better is with limo rides to all those
> appointments.

Oooooooh! Where can I sign up? Oh yeah. He thinks we can eat plenty of
carbs too!

Hello Kurt
just wanted to wish you a happy New Year.
and also say you do a very good job at ignoring the many insults
you get while only voicing your opinion as a fellow diabetic.

I hope this is a wonderful year for you.

Tom



"Kurt" > wrote in message
news:a3d180c8-5817-4df4-8690-

In alt.support.diabetes Helen Back > wrote:

> Who do we believe, who do we take our advice from if there is so much
> conflicting information?

Those whose predictions about what foods and behaviour will raise or
lower our BG actually works in practice. That's the beauty of having
your own BG meter. You can test out out your doctor's advice, a book's
advice, a web site's advice, the advice of someone on asd, and see who
gets it right most often. Cut right through all the endless "authority
wars" by experimental test.

--
Chris Malcolm DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Kurt" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 3, 5:26?am, "rk" > wrote:
> "Helen Back" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> |
> |
> | Chocolate is less greasy in the pocket than bacon and eggs! :P
>
> I pity the fool who would attempt to treat a hypo with bacon
> and eggs.. pure protein wouldn't help in any form of hypo condition.
>
> Joking or not, a new diabetic and never reading here prior wouldn't
> know the difference and if they followed that advice could cause them
> perhaps death! You also don't bother to state this info is for a T1 or T2.
> Because you don't bother with a sigline.
>
> I think I'll save myself further stress.. OUT

The main problem with this thread is that people are not
distinguishing what they mean by a "hypo". Seems to me the ones that
recommend chocolate or protein mean it as a way to avoid a hypo as
opposed to treating a hypo. Big difference between the two.


----------------

I answered you, I asked you if you thought 2.6 qualified as a hypo?

On Jan 4, 2:14�pm, "Gantlet" > wrote:
> HelloKurt
> �just wanted to wish you a happy New Year.
> and also say you do a very good job at ignoring the many insults
> you get while only voicing your opinion as a fellow diabetic.

There are insults in this newsgroup? Where? LOL

> I hope this is a wonderful year for you.

Same to you. Continued success with the exercise and thanks for
sharing the great info on it.

One of my resolutions was to not read or post so much here and to stop
responding to certain people when they take cheap shots. Not doing
too well with that one so far. Oh well, it's only January
4th...there's always tomorrow!

Best to you and your family...

Kurt

On Jan 4, 6:09�pm, "Ozgirl" > wrote:
> "Kurt" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jan 3, 5:26?am, "rk" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Helen Back" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > |
> > |
> > | Chocolate is less greasy in the pocket than bacon and eggs! :P
>
> > I pity the fool who would attempt to treat a hypo with bacon
> > and eggs.. pure protein wouldn't help in any form of hypo condition.
>
> > Joking or not, a new diabetic and never reading here prior wouldn't
> > know the difference and if they followed that advice could cause them
> > perhaps death! You also don't bother to state this info is for a T1 or T2.
> > Because you don't bother with a sigline.
>
> > I think I'll save myself further stress.. OUT
>
> The main problem with this thread is that people are not
> distinguishing what they mean by a "hypo". �Seems to me the ones that
> recommend chocolate or protein mean it as a way to avoid a hypo as
> opposed to treating a hypo. �Big difference between the two.
>
> ----------------
>
> I answered you, I asked you if you thought 2.6 qualified as a hypo?

Yes, 2.6 IMO would be classified as a hypo? Would you treat that with
chocolate? I wouldn't.

Kurt

In alt.support.diabetes Jackie Patti > wrote:
> Chris Malcolm wrote:

>> Exactly. The danger of getting onto a reactive hypoglycemia roller
>> coaster is a real danger for non-insulin using T2 who still have good
>> second phase insulin responses left, and one that doesn't exist for
>> insulin users. Whereas insulin users have to avoid the risk of serious
>> medical emergency lows, a danger that doesn't exist for many
>> non-insulin using T2s. Quite different dangers, with quite different
>> appropriate remedies to avoid them.

> It's not just injected insulin; a lot of T2s take pancreas-stimulating
> medications also. Then a hypo can be just as serious... your body
> doesn't distinguish between homemade insulin vs. the injected stuff.

You're quite right. And even without any drugs at all a T2 can still
get a reactive hypo after a bad scare or an injury.

--
Chris Malcolm DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Kurt" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 4, 6:09?pm, "Ozgirl" > wrote:
> "Kurt" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jan 3, 5:26?am, "rk" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Helen Back" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > |
> > |
> > | Chocolate is less greasy in the pocket than bacon and eggs! :P
>
> > I pity the fool who would attempt to treat a hypo with bacon
> > and eggs.. pure protein wouldn't help in any form of hypo condition.
>
> > Joking or not, a new diabetic and never reading here prior wouldn't
> > know the difference and if they followed that advice could cause them
> > perhaps death! You also don't bother to state this info is for a T1 or
> > T2.
> > Because you don't bother with a sigline.
>
> > I think I'll save myself further stress.. OUT
>
> The main problem with this thread is that people are not
> distinguishing what they mean by a "hypo". ?Seems to me the ones that
> recommend chocolate or protein mean it as a way to avoid a hypo as
> opposed to treating a hypo. ?Big difference between the two.
>
> ----------------
>
> I answered you, I asked you if you thought 2.6 qualified as a hypo?

Yes, 2.6 IMO would be classified as a hypo? Would you treat that with
chocolate? I wouldn't.

------
As that is as low as it would probably go considering no meds or insulin,
these days I would eat something that isnt going to stimulate further
insulin release. Which sweet things do and in the past has caused the roller
coaster. A chunk of chicken and any veggies I have in the house work fine.
Add in a bit of a liver dump and there is no crisis. If I was on insulin I
would go for the juice, coke, sugared water, jelly beans etc.

Right!
Raw almonds for some reason stabalise my bg to normal baseline if im high or
low..but might not do anything for another person.
We are amazing machines made in a factory full of gremlins..so for people to
expect us all to follow the ada or anyones guidlines without self testing
is anti-proactive which is all most of us are trying to be and advise to
others to be..

KROM

"Chris Malcolm" > wrote in message
...
> In alt.support.diabetes Helen Back > wrote:
>
>> Who do we believe, who do we take our advice from if there is so much
>> conflicting information?
>
> Those whose predictions about what foods and behaviour will raise or
> lower our BG actually works in practice. That's the beauty of having
> your own BG meter. You can test out out your doctor's advice, a book's
> advice, a web site's advice, the advice of someone on asd, and see who
> gets it right most often. Cut right through all the endless "authority
> wars" by experimental test.
>
> --
> Chris Malcolm DoD #205
> IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
> [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
>

On Jan 4, 8:56�pm, "krom" > wrote:
> Right!
> Raw almonds for some reason stabalise my bg to normal baseline if im high or
> low..but might not do anything for another person.
> We are amazing machines made in a factory full of gremlins..so for people to
> expect us all to follow �the ada or anyones guidlines without self testing
> is anti-proactive which is all most of us are trying to be and advise to
> others to be..

So who's expecting you or anyone else to follow the ADA's guidelines
without self testing? And the guidelines the ADA posts are just that.
They are general recommendations with specific instructions to work
with your healthcare team to determine your personal needs.

Some people in here sure do work hard to keep the flame of hate about
the ADA burning.


Kurt

Well kurt when we say somthing works for us and post what works or doesnt
for us.. you counter such a post with "dont listen to amatuers" and "another
low carb cultist" etc.

Since most all here DO work with a endo or doc you point is moot.

The complaint is about BAD doctors adn BAD or overgeneralised advice..the a
ADA and you often dispense advice to type two's geared for type ones and
thats a problem.

I dont hate the ADA at all and sub to thier mag etc..i just find alot of
thier dietary advice woefully wrong for ME as a type two non insulin
dependant person.

On a good day i need no meds thanks to my diet and exercise..if i ate the
diet the ADA recomends i would for sure need meds..its as simple as that for
me.

KROM

"Kurt" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 4, 8:56?pm, "krom" > wrote:
> Right!
> Raw almonds for some reason stabalise my bg to normal baseline if im high
> or
> low..but might not do anything for another person.
> We are amazing machines made in a factory full of gremlins..so for people
> to
> expect us all to follow ?the ada or anyones guidlines without self testing
> is anti-proactive which is all most of us are trying to be and advise to
> others to be..

So who's expecting you or anyone else to follow the ADA's guidelines
without self testing? And the guidelines the ADA posts are just that.
They are general recommendations with specific instructions to work
with your healthcare team to determine your personal needs.

Some people in here sure do work hard to keep the flame of hate about
the ADA burning.


Kurt

In alt.support.diabetes Kurt > wrote:
> On Jan 4, 6:09???pm, "Ozgirl" > wrote:
>> "Kurt" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> On Jan 3, 5:26?am, "rk" > wrote:
>> > "Helen Back" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...

>> > | Chocolate is less greasy in the pocket than bacon and eggs! :P
>>
>> > I pity the fool who would attempt to treat a hypo with bacon
>> > and eggs.. pure protein wouldn't help in any form of hypo condition.
>>
>> > Joking or not, a new diabetic and never reading here prior wouldn't
>> > know the difference and if they followed that advice could cause them
>> > perhaps death! You also don't bother to state this info is for a T1 or T2.
>> > Because you don't bother with a sigline.
>>
>> > I think I'll save myself further stress.. OUT
>>
>> The main problem with this thread is that people are not
>> distinguishing what they mean by a "hypo". ???Seems to me the ones that
>> recommend chocolate or protein mean it as a way to avoid a hypo as
>> opposed to treating a hypo. ???Big difference between the two.
>>
>> ----------------
>>
>> I answered you, I asked you if you thought 2.6 qualified as a hypo?

> Yes, 2.6 IMO would be classified as a hypo? Would you treat that with
> chocolate? I wouldn't.

Fair enough, especially since you're a T1, but the important question
here is whether you think any bad consequences might follow from
someone else, such as a non-drug-using T2, treating it with chocolate,
and if so, why?

--
Chris Malcolm DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

On Jan 5, 4:01�am, "krom" > wrote:
> Well kurt when we say somthing works for us and post what works or doesnt
> for us.. you counter such a post with "dont listen to amatuers" and "another
> low carb cultist" etc.
>
> Since most all here DO work with a endo or doc you point is moot.
>
> The complaint is about BAD doctors adn BAD or overgeneralised advice..the a
> ADA and you often dispense advice to type two's geared for type ones and
> thats a problem.
>
> I dont hate the ADA at all and sub to thier mag etc..i just find alot of
> thier dietary advice woefully wrong for ME as a type two non insulin
> dependant person.
>
> On a good day i need no meds thanks to my diet and exercise..if i ate the
> diet the ADA recomends i would for sure need meds..its as simple as that for
> me.

I understand what you're saying but the problem for me comes from when
people assume that their recommendations - and they offer more than
one approach to eating with sliding scale suggestions - are taken as
some kind of mandate, as opposed to "suggestions." You have found
something that works for you, just as I have, that differs from those
suggestions and it seems to work. I would imagine the ADA would think
that's a very good thing. We all are individuals and we need to find
what works for us and something we can live with. But for those who
need a starting point which is different and better than how most
people eat, the recommendations they offer are broad and a good
starting point.

Kurt

On Jan 5, 8:07�am, M�ck�� > wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:50:54 -0800 (PST), Kurt
>
> > wrote:
>
> >Some people in here sure do work hard to keep the flame of hate about
> >the regular posters who think and post without my permission burning.
>
> >Kurt
>
> you had a typo, I corrected it for you.
>
> You are welcome.

Oh, that's right, since you have no respect for people's words you
change them, or steal them, at will and think there's nothing wrong
with it. I guess with all that boggling going on in your mind it gets
in the way of your sense of right and wrong.

http://tinyurl.com/34xcvh

Unboggle that mind and choose to be a better person.

Kurt

In alt.support.diabetes Chris Malcolm > wrote:
: In alt.support.diabetes Kurt > wrote:
: > On Jan 4, 6:09???pm, "Ozgirl" > wrote:
: >> "Kurt" > wrote in message
: >>
: >> ...
: >> On Jan 3, 5:26?am, "rk" > wrote:
: >> > "Helen Back" > wrote in message
: >>
: >> ...

: >> > | Chocolate is less greasy in the pocket than bacon and eggs! :P
: >>
: >> > I pity the fool who would attempt to treat a hypo with bacon
: >> > and eggs.. pure protein wouldn't help in any form of hypo condition.
: >>
: >> > Joking or not, a new diabetic and never reading here prior wouldn't
: >> > know the difference and if they followed that advice could cause them
: >> > perhaps death! You also don't bother to state this info is for a T1 or T2.
: >> > Because you don't bother with a sigline.
: >>
: >> > I think I'll save myself further stress.. OUT
: >>
: >> The main problem with this thread is that people are not
: >> distinguishing what they mean by a "hypo". ???Seems to me the ones that
: >> recommend chocolate or protein mean it as a way to avoid a hypo as
: >> opposed to treating a hypo. ???Big difference between the two.
: >>
: >> ----------------
: >>
: >> I answered you, I asked you if you thought 2.6 qualified as a hypo?

: > Yes, 2.6 IMO would be classified as a hypo? Would you treat that with
: > chocolate? I wouldn't.

: Fair enough, especially since you're a T1, but the important question
: here is whether you think any bad consequences might follow from
: someone else, such as a non-drug-using T2, treating it with chocolate,
: and if so, why?

: --
: Chris Malcolm DoD #205
: IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
: [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

As a type 2 Iseldom get lows, but I have accasionally gone into the 40s
or 50s and more frequently, inot the 60s or low 70s. What I find works
FOR ME is a small amount of orange juice, about 2 oz, to get me ff the
bottom and then something like a Wasa cracker with either cheese or peanut
butter to give my system something to slowly work on. Were I to take 4
oz of OJ I wld go too high and begin, if not a roller coaster, at least
problems with my next meal.

This usually results in a reading in the mid 80s by 15 mins.

Wendy

The thing is.... for a new type two's... the issue is bringing oneself under
control as quickly as possible with as little meds as possible.
For most type two's going low spike right away is the answer at the
onset...then as they gain control they can adjust thier diets to what works
for them best.
If the ada would suggest this for type two's it would be alot better.
I get they have to be broud based covering type ones and two's but for
example i picked up the ada mag the day i was dx'd and saw recipes for
meals that had like 48 carbs for a serving..the only "diabetic" change to
the recipe from a non diabetic one was they changed some of the sugar for
apple juice but really the overal carb count was the same as a regular
dessert item so i was very confused as my meter quickly let me know i would
go very high eating such a item..they dont say this is for type ones only or
type twos who can tolerat such a item..no they just say here it is make it.

I used to workout 5 days a week pre dx and ate very healthy and still was
480 or so when i was dx..so to say diet and exercise is all it takes and you
can eat as a non diabetic is false.

The goal is non diabetic numbers and the way for many type twos to do it
with minimum meds is to eat a low spike diet which by some seems low
carb...which it is not.

The truth is going from white rice on my plate to veggies is a healthier
choice even if i was NOT a diabetic...thats the issue for me.

KROM

"Kurt" > wrote
I understand what you're saying but the problem for me comes from when
people assume that their recommendations - and they offer more than
one approach to eating with sliding scale suggestions - are taken as
some kind of mandate, as opposed to "suggestions." You have found
something that works for you, just as I have, that differs from those
suggestions and it seems to work. I would imagine the ADA would think
that's a very good thing. We all are individuals and we need to find
what works for us and something we can live with. But for those who
need a starting point which is different and better than how most
people eat, the recommendations they offer are broad and a good
starting point.

Kurt

"krom" > wrote in message
...
> Well kurt when we say somthing works for us and post what works or doesnt
> for us.. you counter such a post with "dont listen to amatuers" and
> "another low carb cultist" etc.

I know for me, cutting my carbs has made a world of difference. But like
you, I also say what works for ME, may not work for you because we are all
different.

> Since most all here DO work with a endo or doc you point is moot.
>
> The complaint is about BAD doctors adn BAD or overgeneralised advice..the
> a ADA and you often dispense advice to type two's geared for type ones and
> thats a problem.
>
> I dont hate the ADA at all and sub to thier mag etc..i just find alot of
> thier dietary advice woefully wrong for ME as a type two non insulin
> dependant person.
>
> On a good day i need no meds thanks to my diet and exercise..if i ate the
> diet the ADA recomends i would for sure need meds..its as simple as that
> for me.

I like the ADA for the fact that they are advocates for us diabetics in
general. However, as I said in another post, my doctors and I decide what
will be most effective for me, not anything that comes from them.

--
T2 - Oct. '96 - Lantus, oral meds, diet
http://www.lockergnome.com/darksentinel
Undo the munge to reply by email

"W. Baker" > wrote in message
...
> In alt.support.diabetes Chris Malcolm > wrote:
> : In alt.support.diabetes Kurt > wrote:
> : > On Jan 4, 6:09???pm, "Ozgirl" > wrote:
> : >> "Kurt" > wrote in message
> : >>
> : >>
> ...
> : >> On Jan 3, 5:26?am, "rk" > wrote:
> : >> > "Helen Back" > wrote in message
> : >>
> : >> ...
>
> : >> > | Chocolate is less greasy in the pocket than bacon and eggs! :P
> : >>
> : >> > I pity the fool who would attempt to treat a hypo with bacon
> : >> > and eggs.. pure protein wouldn't help in any form of hypo
> condition.
> : >>
> : >> > Joking or not, a new diabetic and never reading here prior wouldn't
> : >> > know the difference and if they followed that advice could cause
> them
> : >> > perhaps death! You also don't bother to state this info is for a T1
> or T2.
> : >> > Because you don't bother with a sigline.
> : >>
> : >> > I think I'll save myself further stress.. OUT
> : >>
> : >> The main problem with this thread is that people are not
> : >> distinguishing what they mean by a "hypo". ???Seems to me the ones
> that
> : >> recommend chocolate or protein mean it as a way to avoid a hypo as
> : >> opposed to treating a hypo. ???Big difference between the two.
> : >>
> : >> ----------------
> : >>
> : >> I answered you, I asked you if you thought 2.6 qualified as a hypo?
>
> : > Yes, 2.6 IMO would be classified as a hypo? Would you treat that with
> : > chocolate? I wouldn't.
>
> : Fair enough, especially since you're a T1, but the important question
> : here is whether you think any bad consequences might follow from
> : someone else, such as a non-drug-using T2, treating it with chocolate,
> : and if so, why?
>
> : --
> : Chris Malcolm DoD #205
> : IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
> : [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
>
> As a type 2 Iseldom get lows, but I have accasionally gone into the 40s
> or 50s and more frequently, inot the 60s or low 70s. What I find works
> FOR ME is a small amount of orange juice, about 2 oz, to get me ff the
> bottom and then something like a Wasa cracker with either cheese or peanut
> butter to give my system something to slowly work on. Were I to take 4
> oz of OJ I wld go too high and begin, if not a roller coaster, at least
> problems with my next meal.
>
> This usually results in a reading in the mid 80s by 15 mins.

Well since I went on the Lantus I am a bit more prone to hypos right now. As
my back allows, my real vigorous exercise consists playing drums.
Heavy/Speed Metal type...

For me though I see a more subdued/balanced response with the exercise.
Doesn't drop me super fast depending on the BG level when I start playing. I
got glucose tablets and gel from my educator, but I keep the tabs in the
Exploder for when I am out. At home I usually have the little bottles of
apple juice or Sunny-D for fast response. For a slower response will usually
do some peanut crackers and a small glass of milk.

--
T2 - Oct. '96 - Lantus, oral meds, diet
http://www.lockergnome.com/darksentinel
Undo the munge to reply by email

In alt.support.diabetes krom > wrote:
: The thing is.... for a new type two's... the issue is bringing oneself under
: control as quickly as possible with as little meds as possible.
: For most type two's going low spike right away is the answer at the
: onset...then as they gain control they can adjust thier diets to what works
: for them best.

For some newl diagnosed type 2s with high numbers there may well be a
better to start. It is possible to have glucose toxicity and a fairly
rapid drop in blood sugar is highly desireable. In such cases, as Old Al
used to discuss, insulin (along with diet and exercise) is the way to go
until some control is gained. It can then be stopped and either oral meds
like metformin or just D&E can be used. Just be sure to avoid both
using insulin and cutting about all your carbs which can set you up for a
rare condition in th eeye from too rapidly droping numbers. Eye doctors
are aware of this rare condition, but still like to see fast recovery from
hig bgs, as they are dangerous to the eyes.

I don't think you were here when ChrisJ was here. He had this problem
after being diagnosed in teh hospital wit bgs well over 500 and refusing
to eat the very high carb meals served him there. He was puton insulin
and was eating only tofu and a green vegetable, not sure if it was
broccoli or something else. He got his number way down in about 6 days
and was off the insulin, but had this eye problem, looing a small portion
of his viaion in one eye. It is a problem only with VERY exreme dropping
of bgs by the newly diagnosed.

This is one reason I reccomend a visit to an opthamologist soon after
diagnosis for a fully dilated retinal exam.

Wendy wearing her "eye police" hat.

On Jan 5, 10:23�pm, "krom" > wrote:
> The thing is.... for a new type two's... the issue is bringing oneself under
> control as quickly as possible with as little meds as possible.

Is that really the thing or is it what you read in here? Certainly
getting in control is key for all diabetics but how one goes about
that should be done carefully and under guidance by a doctor. Most
newbies don't even know how to spell diabetes, let alone determine how
to deal with it. I

Not saying you advocate that newbies ignore the advice of their
doctors and instead follow the advice of strangers in a newsgroup, but
a few here do. To me, that is insane.

Tom talks often about how when he was first diagnosed he worked with
his doctor and how effective that was for him in the long run.

> For most type two's going low spike right away is the answer at the
> onset...then as they gain control they can adjust thier diets to what works
> for them best.

I think there might be some endos who would disagree with you on
that. I am neither a Type 2 or a doctor so I will respect that as
your opinion, but not as a fact.

> If the ada would suggest this for type two's it would be alot better.

Again, your opinion...although I realize that in this newsgroup that
is shared by others.

> I get they have to be broud based covering type ones and two's but for
> example i picked up the ada mag the day i was dx'd and saw recipes for
> meals that had like 48 carbs for a serving..the only "diabetic" change to
> the recipe from a non diabetic one was they changed some of the sugar for
> apple juice but really the overal carb count was the same as a regular
> dessert item so i was very confused as my meter quickly let me know i would
> go very high eating such a item..they dont say this is for type ones only or
> type twos who can tolerat such a item..no they just say here it is make it..

They also don't say that you have to eat it either. I get the
magazine and I look at the recipes. I decide if it's something I
want, or would fit in with my diet. To tell you the truth, I rarely
use any of their recipes.

Obviously the ADA is not as in love with the extreme low carb
lifestyle as many in here are. Does that make them wrong, and the
newsgroup right? Not necessarily. I personally don't think that
anyone should base their diet choices on what the general
recommendations the ADA makes any more than I think someone should
base their diabetes care on what they read in a newsgroup full of
amateurs whom they have never met in person. No matter how much some
in here like to pretend they are experts, they aren't. It amazes me
that some newbies come into this newsgroup and within a few weeks of
"programming" by a few alleged know-it-alls, start spouting the same
mobspeak to other newbies as if it is gospel.

> I used to workout 5 days a week pre dx and ate very healthy

What is your definition of eating healthy?

>and still was
> 480 or so when i was dx..
so to say diet and exercise is all it takes and you
> can eat as a non diabetic is false.

Who says that? Not the ADA. Not me. There are some diabetics who can
control their diabetes with diet and exercise alone, I'm not one of
them. However, exercise is certainly as important as food choices and
medication IMO and to my healthcare team of professionals.

> The goal is non diabetic numbers

If possible, that should be the goal of all diabetics. However, it is
just not possible or safe for some.

>and the way for many type twos to do it
> with minimum meds is to eat a low spike diet which by some seems low
> carb...which it is not.

What are you basing this on? Sounds like you got that from here. If
you have actual cites to back this up I'd like to see them.

> The truth is going from white rice on my plate to veggies is a healthier
> choice even if i was NOT a diabetic...thats the issue for me.

I think that would be a healthier choice for all people, diabetic or
not. For me, adding nutrition rich whole grains offers more diversity
and more balance. From the diets listed by some in here I frankly
don't see where they are getting their calories from. A truly active
person could never survive on that little calorie intake.

Kurt

On Jan 6, 8:00�am, M�ck�� > wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 11:10:39 -0800 (PST), Kurt
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Jan 5, 8:07?am, M?ck?? > wrote:
> >> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:50:54 -0800 (PST), Kurt
>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >Some people in here sure do work hard to keep the flame of hate about
> >> >the regular posters who think and post without my permission burning.
>
> >> >Kurt
>
> >> you had a typo, I corrected it for you.
>
> >> You are welcome.
>
> >Oh, that's right, since you have no respect for people's words you
> >change them, or steal them, at will and think there's nothing wrong
> >with it. I guess with all that boggling going on in your mind it gets
> >in the way of your sense of right and wrong.
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/34xcvh
>
> >Unboggle that mind and choose to be a better person.
>
> >Kurt
>
> your so called ethics are part time at best.

Yours seem to be chronically unemployed.

Kurt

Thnx for the info wendy!

Always lots to ponder with this disease for sure.

KROM

"W. Baker" > wrote in message
...
> In alt.support.diabetes krom > wrote:
> : The thing is.... for a new type two's... the issue is bringing oneself
> under
> : control as quickly as possible with as little meds as possible.
> : For most type two's going low spike right away is the answer at the
> : onset...then as they gain control they can adjust thier diets to what
> works
> : for them best.
>
> For some newl diagnosed type 2s with high numbers there may well be a
> better to start. It is possible to have glucose toxicity and a fairly
> rapid drop in blood sugar is highly desireable. In such cases, as Old Al
> used to discuss, insulin (along with diet and exercise) is the way to go
> until some control is gained. It can then be stopped and either oral meds
> like metformin or just D&E can be used. Just be sure to avoid both
> using insulin and cutting about all your carbs which can set you up for a
> rare condition in th eeye from too rapidly droping numbers. Eye doctors
> are aware of this rare condition, but still like to see fast recovery from
> hig bgs, as they are dangerous to the eyes.
>
> I don't think you were here when ChrisJ was here. He had this problem
> after being diagnosed in teh hospital wit bgs well over 500 and refusing
> to eat the very high carb meals served him there. He was puton insulin
> and was eating only tofu and a green vegetable, not sure if it was
> broccoli or something else. He got his number way down in about 6 days
> and was off the insulin, but had this eye problem, looing a small portion
> of his viaion in one eye. It is a problem only with VERY exreme dropping
> of bgs by the newly diagnosed.
>
> This is one reason I reccomend a visit to an opthamologist soon after
> diagnosis for a fully dilated retinal exam.
>
> Wendy wearing her "eye police" hat.

See this is why i find it hard to talk to you kurt...you always toss in
words like cultist and extreme low carb etc...ive yet to see a single poster
here who eats just protien only..most of the posters here describe eatign
alot of carbs..just lows spiking ones.

I get plenty of calories each day and i actually eat regular store shelf
peanutbutter alot as it doesnt spike but contains sugar...it does not have
hhfc which will spike me big time...same with ketchup i can eat the organic
ketchup because its made with real sugar and doesnt spike me but a tiny bit
of good old heinz will.
Diets like atkins and soutbeach arent even low carb after week two or
so..but nobody bothers to see anything past the fact people are allowed
bacon and lobster.

ONly diet that wouldnt allow the foods allowed on atkins is a low fat
diet..which as we all know is bad for the joints and the rational approuch
would be changing from bad fats to healthier choices..which is the same idea
behind a low spike diet..replacing spiking carbs with healthier choices.
I get you fear noobs wont make the distinction..but instead of bashing the
regulars who arent anti carb as being anticarb..why not inforn the noobies
of the healthy choices as most all of us are.

My diet pre dx was pretty much the meals you describe..a piece of meat with
veggie and a starch..usually brown rice.

I have never been low carb even when i was hard core into body building.


KROM


"Kurt" > wrote

Obviously the ADA is not as in love with the extreme low carb
lifestyle as many in here are.

On Jan 6, 9:48�pm, "krom" > wrote:
> See this is why i find it hard to talk to you kurt...

You seem to be doing alright when you drop the shield.

>you always toss in
> words like cultist and extreme low carb etc...ive yet to see a single poster
> here who eats just protien only..most of the posters here describe eatign
> alot of carbs..just lows spiking ones.

Some advocate pretty extreme measures and get very mean spirited if
someone doesn't eat to their standards. As far as tossing in words, I
rarely use "cultist" but there are a few who seem to be cult like.
That word pales in comparison to what is said about low-fat diets,
doctors, and the ADA.

> I get plenty of calories each day and i actually eat regular store shelf
> peanutbutter alot as it doesnt spike but contains sugar...

Well, we differ there. I gave up processed foods a long time ago and
when I buy peanut butter it's either made in the store or it's the all
natural kind.

>it does not have
> hhfc which will spike me big time...same with ketchup i can eat the organic
> ketchup because its made with real sugar and doesnt spike me but a tiny bit
> of good old heinz will.

I buy the all natural kind, but don't use it much.

> Diets like atkins and soutbeach arent even low carb after week two or
> so..

Well, I'd have to disagree with you there. They may not be as extreme
as the start of the diet, but they would be considered low-carb by
normal diet standards...but then again, my WOE is considered low-carb.

>but nobody bothers to see anything past the fact people are allowed
> bacon and lobster.

Bacon, steak, and hot dogs seems to be the preferred dishes to the few
people I know who say they are on Atkins. I love lobster!

> ONly diet that wouldnt allow the foods allowed on atkins is a low fat
> diet..which as we all know is bad for the joints

Well, count me not a member of that club because that's not something
I associate with low-fat eating. And to make that kind of
proclamation about low-fat diets is equally as wrong as saying that
eating low-carb and high-protein will blow out your kidneys.

>and the rational approuch
> would be changing from bad fats to healthier choices..

I did that years ago and still eat low-fat.

>which is the same idea
> behind a low spike diet..replacing �spiking carbs with healthier >choices.

I think the problem with that for me is what some push as "healthier
choices" and what they tell others that "spiking carbs" are. I think
we should all find what spikes us without the heavy handed "OMG, you
eat that? You shouldn't eat that!" The diets of some in here don't
add up when it comes to getting enough calories...unless of course the
person is hibernating.

> I get you fear noobs wont make the distinction..

I don't fear that as much as people who are confused that come here
and are steered away from their doctors and towards amateur advice.
People are real nice to them until they don't agree with the advice,
then the pack turns on them. I've seen it played out in here over and
over. For those who do buy into all the advice hook, line, and sinker
go through a strange transformation. Miraculously, within a short
period of time the person is an authority on diabetes and when other
newbies come into the group they lecture them with the same kind of
"do it this way."

>but instead of bashing the
> regulars

Let's make a distinction here. I don't bash the regulars in here, IMO
I don't bash anyone. However, there are a vocal few in here who I
think speak from a bully pulpit and don't want any alternate opinions
to their own diabetes gospel. I think there is room here for all
kinds of diets and approaches. We should all work with a professional
to find what works best for us, but we should be exposed to a variety
of choices.

>who arent anti carb as being anticarb..

IMO, there are a few in here who are very anti-carb. Because they say
they can't tolerate carbs other than some vegetables they feel that no
one else can either. These people are usually fairly inactive and
don't eat a lot of calories. Not everyone is like that and their
needs are different.

>why not inforn the noobies
> of the healthy choices as most all of us are.

I, and others, have.

> My diet pre dx was pretty much the meals you describe..a piece of meat with
> veggie and a starch..usually brown rice.

Really? Brown rice? Excuse me for being a bit suspect of that since
that is what I talk about a lot. Okay, I'll assume that you were
eating brown rice. Was it whole grain? How much were you eating?
How much exercising were you doing? What other foods were you
eating...you know, snack foods, junk foods, that kind of thing.

> I have never been low carb even when i was hard core into body >building.

When you were hard core into body building what were your bg
readings? That's if you were monitoring them then. For most people,
building a lot of muscle will definitely require more calories and
those calories will be burned more efficiently.

To tell you the truth, Krom, I don't even know if we are disagreeing
about anything here. I've never had a problem with anyone making a
diet choice, whether it's low-carb, low-fat, portion control, or a
combination of all of those. People with diabetes need to find
something other than the SAD (Standard American...hell, any
country...Diet). My problem with some in this newsgroup is they think
they have the magic potion and anyone else who doesn't see it that way
is treated very rudely. I'm not alone in feeling this way. But I
will speak for myself.

Kurt

"Kurt" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 6, 9:48?pm, "krom" > wrote:
> See this is why i find it hard to talk to you kurt...

You seem to be doing alright when you drop the shield.

>you always toss in
> words like cultist and extreme low carb etc...ive yet to see a single
> poster
> here who eats just protien only..most of the posters here describe eatign
> alot of carbs..just lows spiking ones.

Some advocate pretty extreme measures and get very mean spirited if
someone doesn't eat to their standards. As far as tossing in words, I
rarely use "cultist" but there are a few who seem to be cult like.
That word pales in comparison to what is said about low-fat diets,
doctors, and the ADA.

> I get plenty of calories each day and i actually eat regular store shelf
> peanutbutter alot as it doesnt spike but contains sugar...

Well, we differ there. I gave up processed foods a long time ago and
when I buy peanut butter it's either made in the store or it's the all
natural kind.

>it does not have
> hhfc which will spike me big time...same with ketchup i can eat the
> organic
> ketchup because its made with real sugar and doesnt spike me but a tiny
> bit
> of good old heinz will.

I buy the all natural kind, but don't use it much.

> Diets like atkins and soutbeach arent even low carb after week two or
> so..

Well, I'd have to disagree with you there. They may not be as extreme
as the start of the diet, but they would be considered low-carb by
normal diet standards...but then again, my WOE is considered low-carb.

>but nobody bothers to see anything past the fact people are allowed
> bacon and lobster.

Bacon, steak, and hot dogs seems to be the preferred dishes to the few
people I know who say they are on Atkins. I love lobster!

> ONly diet that wouldnt allow the foods allowed on atkins is a low fat
> diet..which as we all know is bad for the joints

Well, count me not a member of that club because that's not something
I associate with low-fat eating. And to make that kind of
proclamation about low-fat diets is equally as wrong as saying that
eating low-carb and high-protein will blow out your kidneys.

>and the rational approuch
> would be changing from bad fats to healthier choices..

I did that years ago and still eat low-fat.

>which is the same idea
> behind a low spike diet..replacing ?spiking carbs with healthier >choices.

I think the problem with that for me is what some push as "healthier
choices" and what they tell others that "spiking carbs" are. I think
we should all find what spikes us without the heavy handed "OMG, you
eat that? You shouldn't eat that!" The diets of some in here don't
add up when it comes to getting enough calories...unless of course the
person is hibernating.

> I get you fear noobs wont make the distinction..

I don't fear that as much as people who are confused that come here
and are steered away from their doctors and towards amateur advice.
People are real nice to them until they don't agree with the advice,
then the pack turns on them. I've seen it played out in here over and
over. For those who do buy into all the advice hook, line, and sinker
go through a strange transformation. Miraculously, within a short
period of time the person is an authority on diabetes and when other
newbies come into the group they lecture them with the same kind of
"do it this way."

>but instead of bashing the
> regulars

Let's make a distinction here. I don't bash the regulars in here, IMO
I don't bash anyone. However, there are a vocal few in here who I
think speak from a bully pulpit and don't want any alternate opinions
to their own diabetes gospel. I think there is room here for all
kinds of diets and approaches. We should all work with a professional
to find what works best for us, but we should be exposed to a variety
of choices.

>who arent anti carb as being anticarb..

IMO, there are a few in here who are very anti-carb. Because they say
they can't tolerate carbs other than some vegetables they feel that no
one else can either. These people are usually fairly inactive and
don't eat a lot of calories. Not everyone is like that and their
needs are different.

>why not inforn the noobies
> of the healthy choices as most all of us are.

I, and others, have.

> My diet pre dx was pretty much the meals you describe..a piece of meat
> with
> veggie and a starch..usually brown rice.

Really? Brown rice? Excuse me for being a bit suspect of that since
that is what I talk about a lot. Okay, I'll assume that you were
eating brown rice. Was it whole grain? How much were you eating?
How much exercising were you doing? What other foods were you
eating...you know, snack foods, junk foods, that kind of thing.

> I have never been low carb even when i was hard core into body >building.

When you were hard core into body building what were your bg
readings? That's if you were monitoring them then. For most people,
building a lot of muscle will definitely require more calories and
those calories will be burned more efficiently.

To tell you the truth, Krom, I don't even know if we are disagreeing
about anything here. I've never had a problem with anyone making a
diet choice, whether it's low-carb, low-fat, portion control, or a
combination of all of those. People with diabetes need to find
something other than the SAD (Standard American...hell, any
country...Diet). My problem with some in this newsgroup is they think
they have the magic potion and anyone else who doesn't see it that way
is treated very rudely. I'm not alone in feeling this way. But I
will speak for myself.

Kurt

---------
AMEN Brother!!! and don't forget about when 'some' give out just
downright incorrect information (on any subject) and profess it is gospel.

All I know is I work closely with my doctor, my doctor often calls upon
me for new diabetic information, be it for medication or dieting because
according to her I have my ducks all in a row with my diabetes. I'm going
on 8yrs now, ZERO complications after the rocky start I had and running
over 500 for the first 4yrs. I can safely eat a 1800 calorie diet with
200gm
of carbs and not gain weight even with a very seditary lifestyle 95% of the
time.

I'd like to say Kurt, that over the time you've been posting, I've taken
several
of your suggestions for food and have incorporated them into my eating plan
and am doing quite well. So, I'd like to say thank you for being a real
human
and eating real food that is helpful to others. Others might see that as
well if
they'd only listen and learn a wee bit. Keep it up you're an asset here
whether
others think so or not.

rk, t1

"Kurt" > wrote

> ONly diet that wouldnt allow the foods allowed on atkins is a low fat
> diet..which as we all know is bad for the joints

>Well, count me not a member of that club because that's not something
>I associate with low-fat eating. And to make that kind of
>proclamation about low-fat diets is equally as wrong as saying that
>eating low-carb and high-protein will blow out your kidneys.

My point is one doesnt eat bacon on a low fat diet but most all other diets
allow it..but when people mention atkins thats ALL they focus on.
As a weightlifter/bodybuilder for years and spendign much of my time in
those group years ago..untill they became about garbage and drugs...we
talked alot about the lie that protien will ruin the kidneys.
All the studies used to say it did harm was on near dead patients with
kidney problems so was much fighting about the issue but anyhoo..


>and the rational approuch
> would be changing from bad fats to healthier choices..

>I did that years ago and still eat low-fat.

Why low fat?
Your brain and organsand eyes and joints need fat to function properly?
I can see limiting sat fats etc but i for one add fat to my diet in flax oil
in my protien shakes and fish oil caps before bed..
Maybe yer low fat is the same as my low carb and only are judged so by
people unwilling to see in shades other then black and white?
I cant imagine you are truely low fat..especially since u mention peanut
butter which to me is a perfect food in that its nearly even in fat carb and
protien..but nuts are certainly not low fat.



> I have never been low carb even when i was hard core into bodybuilding.

>When you were hard core into body building what were your bg
>readings? That's if you were monitoring them then. For most people,
>building a lot of muscle will definitely require more calories and
>those calories will be burned more efficiently.

I was not diabetic.. or pre diabetic when i was seriously into it..and the
couple years pre dx was into lifting and eating healthy as a life choice..
only became aware that i was diabetic when i took a month off
lifitng..somthing everyone should do time to time to avoid overtraining and
fully allow regrowth....that i was eating other then my normal meals..i was
makign bread from scratch and ate alot of it..alot for me anyhoo and got
sick big time.
As far as my meal choices most bodybuilders eat chicken breast and broccoli
and starch in the form of yams..i hate yams other then in pie..so chose
brown rice for my starch.
It was not whole grain..just store shelf stuff i kept in fridge to keep from
going rancid..fyi brown rice and most whole grains have fat and will spiol
if not refridgerated..so whole grains and brown rice also arent low
fat..just good fats.

I also dont blame the whole wheat bread and brown rice for my dx..but i DO
know i cant eat them now without a big spike i dont want.


>To tell you the truth, Krom, I don't even know if we are disagreeing
>about anything here. I've never had a problem with anyone making a
>diet choice, whether it's low-carb, low-fat, portion control, or a
>combination of all of those. People with diabetes need to find
>something other than the SAD (Standard American...hell, any
>country...Diet). My problem with some in this newsgroup is they think
>they have the magic potion and anyone else who doesn't see it that way
>is treated very rudely. I'm not alone in feeling this way. But I
>will speak for myself.


No when you explain you possition it is reasonable as is mine and i think so
is alans and others..its just i came here seeign nothing but fighting
between you all and only now do i get a reasoned conversation about what the
problem is/was and i see it different from you.. let me give a brief
example:

New person type two arrives and say they are spiking from a meal..we ask
what the meal was..they say all they ate was a hot dog two ears of corn and
some carrots.

So most of us will point out the carrots and corn often soike people and the
hot dog might contain fillers also spike possible.

Others may say "i cant eat any of that".

I never see anyone saying you must never eat that..just LOOK at those items
and test to see IF they are the culprit and for alot of type twos it would
be.

If the poster was type one it might be improper dosing etc i cant speak to
it cause im not a type one so wouldnt speak on it.

I do see you and a couple others automatically saying to not listen to us
...that those foods are fine and we are all pushing a low carb agenda.

Thats where i become irked with you..if you say somthing like :

"As a type one those foods dont bother me personally but do some type twos
...so you might want to test and see if they bother you"
And offer all the websites you normally do.

you would appear reasonable and we would have zero issues at all.


KROM

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:57:04 -0600, krom posted:

>No when you explain you possition it is reasonable as is mine and i think so
>is alans and others..its just i came here seeign nothing but fighting
>between you all and only now do i get a reasoned conversation about what the
>problem is/was and i see it different from you.. let me give a brief
>example:
>
>New person type two arrives and say they are spiking from a meal..we ask
>what the meal was..they say all they ate was a hot dog two ears of corn and
>some carrots.
>
>So most of us will point out the carrots and corn often soike people and the
>hot dog might contain fillers also spike possible.
>
>Others may say "i cant eat any of that".
>
>I never see anyone saying you must never eat that..just LOOK at those items
>and test to see IF they are the culprit and for alot of type twos it would
>be.
>
>If the poster was type one it might be improper dosing etc i cant speak to
>it cause im not a type one so wouldnt speak on it.
>
>I do see you and a couple others automatically saying to not listen to us
>..that those foods are fine and we are all pushing a low carb agenda.
>
>Thats where i become irked with you..if you say somthing like :
>
>"As a type one those foods dont bother me personally but do some type twos
>..so you might want to test and see if they bother you"
>And offer all the websites you normally do.
>
>you would appear reasonable and we would have zero issues at all.

Well said, Krom.


--
Larry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada.
DX 24 Aug 07. D&E
Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin
Dx A1c 8.1 : Latest 5.1

rk wrote:
> "Kurt" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Jan 6, 9:48?pm, "krom" > wrote:
>> See this is why i find it hard to talk to you kurt...
>
> You seem to be doing alright when you drop the shield.
>
>> you always toss in
>> words like cultist and extreme low carb etc...ive yet to see a single
>> poster
>> here who eats just protien only..most of the posters here describe eatign
>> alot of carbs..just lows spiking ones.
>
> Some advocate pretty extreme measures and get very mean spirited if
> someone doesn't eat to their standards. As far as tossing in words, I
> rarely use "cultist" but there are a few who seem to be cult like.
> That word pales in comparison to what is said about low-fat diets,
> doctors, and the ADA.
>
>> I get plenty of calories each day and i actually eat regular store shelf
>> peanutbutter alot as it doesnt spike but contains sugar...
>
> Well, we differ there. I gave up processed foods a long time ago and
> when I buy peanut butter it's either made in the store or it's the all
> natural kind.
>
>> it does not have
>> hhfc which will spike me big time...same with ketchup i can eat the
>> organic
>> ketchup because its made with real sugar and doesnt spike me but a tiny
>> bit
>> of good old heinz will.
>
> I buy the all natural kind, but don't use it much.
>
>> Diets like atkins and soutbeach arent even low carb after week two or
>> so..
>
> Well, I'd have to disagree with you there. They may not be as extreme
> as the start of the diet, but they would be considered low-carb by
> normal diet standards...but then again, my WOE is considered low-carb.
>
>> but nobody bothers to see anything past the fact people are allowed
>> bacon and lobster.
>
> Bacon, steak, and hot dogs seems to be the preferred dishes to the few
> people I know who say they are on Atkins. I love lobster!
>
>> ONly diet that wouldnt allow the foods allowed on atkins is a low fat
>> diet..which as we all know is bad for the joints
>
> Well, count me not a member of that club because that's not something
> I associate with low-fat eating. And to make that kind of
> proclamation about low-fat diets is equally as wrong as saying that
> eating low-carb and high-protein will blow out your kidneys.
>
>> and the rational approuch
>> would be changing from bad fats to healthier choices..
>
> I did that years ago and still eat low-fat.
>
>> which is the same idea
>> behind a low spike diet..replacing ?spiking carbs with healthier >choices.
>
> I think the problem with that for me is what some push as "healthier
> choices" and what they tell others that "spiking carbs" are. I think
> we should all find what spikes us without the heavy handed "OMG, you
> eat that? You shouldn't eat that!" The diets of some in here don't
> add up when it comes to getting enough calories...unless of course the
> person is hibernating.
>
>> I get you fear noobs wont make the distinction..
>
> I don't fear that as much as people who are confused that come here
> and are steered away from their doctors and towards amateur advice.
> People are real nice to them until they don't agree with the advice,
> then the pack turns on them. I've seen it played out in here over and
> over. For those who do buy into all the advice hook, line, and sinker
> go through a strange transformation. Miraculously, within a short
> period of time the person is an authority on diabetes and when other
> newbies come into the group they lecture them with the same kind of
> "do it this way."
>
>> but instead of bashing the
>> regulars
>
> Let's make a distinction here. I don't bash the regulars in here, IMO
> I don't bash anyone. However, there are a vocal few in here who I
> think speak from a bully pulpit and don't want any alternate opinions
> to their own diabetes gospel. I think there is room here for all
> kinds of diets and approaches. We should all work with a professional
> to find what works best for us, but we should be exposed to a variety
> of choices.
>
>> who arent anti carb as being anticarb..
>
> IMO, there are a few in here who are very anti-carb. Because they say
> they can't tolerate carbs other than some vegetables they feel that no
> one else can either. These people are usually fairly inactive and
> don't eat a lot of calories. Not everyone is like that and their
> needs are different.
>
>> why not inforn the noobies
>> of the healthy choices as most all of us are.
>
> I, and others, have.
>
>> My diet pre dx was pretty much the meals you describe..a piece of meat
>> with
>> veggie and a starch..usually brown rice.
>
> Really? Brown rice? Excuse me for being a bit suspect of that since
> that is what I talk about a lot. Okay, I'll assume that you were
> eating brown rice. Was it whole grain? How much were you eating?
> How much exercising were you doing? What other foods were you
> eating...you know, snack foods, junk foods, that kind of thing.
>
>> I have never been low carb even when i was hard core into body >building.
>
> When you were hard core into body building what were your bg
> readings? That's if you were monitoring them then. For most people,
> building a lot of muscle will definitely require more calories and
> those calories will be burned more efficiently.
>
> To tell you the truth, Krom, I don't even know if we are disagreeing
> about anything here. I've never had a problem with anyone making a
> diet choice, whether it's low-carb, low-fat, portion control, or a
> combination of all of those. People with diabetes need to find
> something other than the SAD (Standard American...hell, any
> country...Diet). My problem with some in this newsgroup is they think
> they have the magic potion and anyone else who doesn't see it that way
> is treated very rudely. I'm not alone in feeling this way. But I
> will speak for myself.
>
> Kurt
>
> ---------
> AMEN Brother!!! and don't forget about when 'some' give out just
> downright incorrect information (on any subject) and profess it is gospel.
>
> All I know is I work closely with my doctor, my doctor often calls upon
> me for new diabetic information, be it for medication or dieting because
> according to her I have my ducks all in a row with my diabetes. I'm going
> on 8yrs now, ZERO complications after the rocky start I had and running
> over 500 for the first 4yrs. I can safely eat a 1800 calorie diet with
> 200gm
> of carbs and not gain weight even with a very seditary lifestyle 95% of the
> time.
>
> I'd like to say Kurt, that over the time you've been posting, I've taken
> several
> of your suggestions for food and have incorporated them into my eating plan
> and am doing quite well. So, I'd like to say thank you for being a real
> human
> and eating real food that is helpful to others. Others might see that as
> well if
> they'd only listen and learn a wee bit. Keep it up you're an asset here
> whether
> others think so or not.
>
> rk, t1
>
>
your bg levels were over 500 for the first FOUR years of diabetes???

guess you must have been lying about your good numbers that you got when
we cut your insulin in 1/2, proving that you were on too high of an
insulin dose

rk wrote in message
>...


>All I know is I work closely with my doctor, my doctor often calls
upon
>me for new diabetic information, be it for medication or dieting
because
>according to her I have my ducks all in a row with my diabetes. I'm
going


If your doctor calls on *you* for new diabetic information, how good
can she be, and why do you need her? I think I would want a doctor
that knows more than me, or why bother?


Cheri

rk wrote in message
>...

>I'd like to say Kurt, that over the time you've been posting, I've
taken
>several
>of your suggestions for food and have incorporated them into my
eating plan
>and am doing quite well.


I would expect that to be true, since you're both type 1's.

Cheri

"Màck©®" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 02:49:05 -0500, "rk" > wrote:
>
>>
>>---------
>>AMEN Brother!!! and don't forget about when 'some' give out just
>>downright incorrect information (on any subject) and profess it is gospel.
>>rk, t1
>>
>
>
> now which poster who signs their posts "rk" actually gives medical
> advice that should only be given by a doctor, who has actually claimed
> to know more than other people's doctors and then proceeded to tell
> them how much insulin they should taking. And that's only the top of
> the icing.

Don't forget being a self-appointed typo checker, and general self deluded
know it all.

--
T2 - Oct. '96 - Lantus, oral meds, diet
http://www.lockergnome.com/darksentinel
Undo the munge to reply by email

And once again meals that apply to two type ones on insulin mean NOTHING to
a type two who controls on minimal meds and choses to maintain as close to
non diabetic numbers as possible.

At least kurt has moved to reasoned discourse where rk is still stuck in her
anti type two bashing and fight starting ways..very sad.

I dont se what she gains from it personally...lifes to short and i while she
might get a momentary thrill from zinging people online...does it help her
offline?..does it make her deep inside feel shes a good person?

It's not even as though i personally like or dislike her because i dont know
her..she sits in my killfile because what does she offer me other then
insults and arguing her diet and bg levels as a type one applies to me when
anyone with a reasoned mind can get theres a big difference in treatment and
control.

Ah well her world..

KROM

"Tiger_Lily" > wrote

> your bg levels were over 500 for the first FOUR years of diabetes???
>
> guess you must have been lying about your good numbers that you got when
> we cut your insulin in 1/2, proving that you were on too high of an
> insulin dose

Thats the point she doesnt get..kurt seems to now which is why i will gladly
talk to him...he has his ideas of what he thinks a type two should do but is
now conceeding that one should do what works for them and he also agrees
with the striving to achieve non diabetec numbers.
Which is where most all of us are in the group and slow but sure is where
medcine and the diabetic advocates who deal with type two's are going.

KROM

"Cheri" <gserviceatinreachdotcom> wrote in message
. ..
>
> rk wrote in message
> >...
>
>>I'd like to say Kurt, that over the time you've been posting, I've
> taken
>>several
>>of your suggestions for food and have incorporated them into my
> eating plan
>>and am doing quite well.
>
>
> I would expect that to be true, since you're both type 1's.
>
> Cheri
>
>

"Nicky" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:50:06 GMT, "Helen Back"
> > wrote:
>
>>Who do we believe, who do we take our advice from if there is so much
>>conflicting information?
>
> Your meter, your intelligence, and your avid reading of the available
> knowledge.
>


Well, Nicky! It's all working so far. As soon as I got past the frustration
and anger of realising I am the only one who can do this - as the so called
professionals arent going to be there for me.

But I do need to be more assertive - like getting the doc to refer me for a
proper eye check!

Cheers, sweetiepie :P

"Chris Malcolm" > wrote in message
...
> In alt.support.diabetes Helen Back > wrote:
>
>> Who do we believe, who do we take our advice from if there is so much
>> conflicting information?
>
> Those whose predictions about what foods and behaviour will raise or
> lower our BG actually works in practice. That's the beauty of having
> your own BG meter. You can test out out your doctor's advice, a book's
> advice, a web site's advice, the advice of someone on asd, and see who
> gets it right most often. Cut right through all the endless "authority
> wars" by experimental test.
>

That's why I am grateful for many people here in asd. If I had followed the
advice of my diabetes nurse, it would have been twice a day, two to three
days a week for the first two weeks!!

Thanks Chris ))

"krom" > a écrit ...
>
> "Kurt" > wrote
>
>> ONly diet that wouldnt allow the foods allowed on atkins is a low fat
>> diet..which as we all know is bad for the joints
>
>>Well, count me not a member of that club because that's not something
>>I associate with low-fat eating. And to make that kind of
>>proclamation about low-fat diets is equally as wrong as saying that
>>eating low-carb and high-protein will blow out your kidneys.
>
> My point is one doesnt eat bacon on a low fat diet but most all other
> diets allow it..but when people mention atkins thats ALL they focus on.
> As a weightlifter/bodybuilder for years and spendign much of my time in
> those group years ago..untill they became about garbage and drugs...we
> talked alot about the lie that protien will ruin the kidneys.
> All the studies used to say it did harm was on near dead patients with
> kidney problems so was much fighting about the issue but anyhoo..
>
>
>>and the rational approuch
>> would be changing from bad fats to healthier choices..
>
>>I did that years ago and still eat low-fat.
>
> Why low fat?
> Your brain and organsand eyes and joints need fat to function properly?
> I can see limiting sat fats etc but i for one add fat to my diet in flax
> oil in my protien shakes and fish oil caps before bed..
> Maybe yer low fat is the same as my low carb and only are judged so by
> people unwilling to see in shades other then black and white?
> I cant imagine you are truely low fat..especially since u mention peanut
> butter which to me is a perfect food in that its nearly even in fat carb
> and protien..but nuts are certainly not low fat.
>
>
>
>> I have never been low carb even when i was hard core into bodybuilding.
>
>>When you were hard core into body building what were your bg
>>readings? That's if you were monitoring them then. For most people,
>>building a lot of muscle will definitely require more calories and
>>those calories will be burned more efficiently.
>
> I was not diabetic.. or pre diabetic when i was seriously into it..and the
> couple years pre dx was into lifting and eating healthy as a life choice..
> only became aware that i was diabetic when i took a month off
> lifitng..somthing everyone should do time to time to avoid overtraining
> and fully allow regrowth....that i was eating other then my normal
> meals..i was makign bread from scratch and ate alot of it..alot for me
> anyhoo and got sick big time.
> As far as my meal choices most bodybuilders eat chicken breast and
> broccoli and starch in the form of yams..i hate yams other then in
> pie..so chose brown rice for my starch.
> It was not whole grain..just store shelf stuff i kept in fridge to keep
> from going rancid..fyi brown rice and most whole grains have fat and will
> spiol if not refridgerated..so whole grains and brown rice also arent low
> fat..just good fats.
>
> I also dont blame the whole wheat bread and brown rice for my dx..but i DO
> know i cant eat them now without a big spike i dont want.
>
>
>>To tell you the truth, Krom, I don't even know if we are disagreeing
>>about anything here. I've never had a problem with anyone making a
>>diet choice, whether it's low-carb, low-fat, portion control, or a
>>combination of all of those. People with diabetes need to find
>>something other than the SAD (Standard American...hell, any
>>country...Diet). My problem with some in this newsgroup is they think
>>they have the magic potion and anyone else who doesn't see it that way
>>is treated very rudely. I'm not alone in feeling this way. But I
>>will speak for myself.
>
>
> No when you explain you possition it is reasonable as is mine and i think
> so is alans and others..its just i came here seeign nothing but fighting
> between you all and only now do i get a reasoned conversation about what
> the problem is/was and i see it different from you.. let me give a brief
> example:
>
> New person type two arrives and say they are spiking from a meal..we ask
> what the meal was..they say all they ate was a hot dog two ears of corn
> and some carrots.
>
> So most of us will point out the carrots and corn often soike people and
> the hot dog might contain fillers also spike possible.
>
> Others may say "i cant eat any of that".
>
> I never see anyone saying you must never eat that..just LOOK at those
> items and test to see IF they are the culprit and for alot of type twos it
> would be.
>
> If the poster was type one it might be improper dosing etc i cant speak to
> it cause im not a type one so wouldnt speak on it.
>
> I do see you and a couple others automatically saying to not listen to us
> ..that those foods are fine and we are all pushing a low carb agenda.
>
> Thats where i become irked with you..if you say somthing like :
>
> "As a type one those foods dont bother me personally but do some type twos
> ..so you might want to test and see if they bother you"
> And offer all the websites you normally do.
>
> you would appear reasonable and we would have zero issues at all.
>
>
> KROM



I also wish to applaud the reasonable approach you entered here.
Keep it up !

Frank

On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:09:02 GMT, "Helen Back"
> wrote:

>
>"Ozgirl" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Helen Back" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Màck©®" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:26:17 -0500, "rk" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Helen Back" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>|
>>>>>|
>>>>>| Chocolate is less greasy in the pocket than bacon and eggs! :P
>>>>>
>>>>>I pity the fool who would attempt to treat a hypo with bacon
>>>>>and eggs.. pure protein wouldn't help in any form of hypo condition.
>>>>>
>>>>>Joking or not, a new diabetic and never reading here prior wouldn't
>>>>>know the difference and if they followed that advice could cause them
>>>>>perhaps death! You also don't bother to state this info is for a T1 or
>>>>>T2.
>>>>>Because you don't bother with a sigline.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think I'll save myself further stress.. OUT
>>>>>
>>>>>rk, t1
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> anyone who was reading longer than a day would know that Helen was a
>>>> type 2. they would also know that she didn't say a hypo should be
>>>> treated with bacon and eggs. however. A mild type 2 hypo could
>>>> easily be treated with bacon, eggs, and a little juice and or a
>>>> biscuit. Amazingly enough even a mild type 1 hypo can be treated in
>>>> the same manner.
>>>
>>> Thank you, Mack. I didnt explain myself to rk for the simple reason
>>> being that my "bacon and eggs in the pocket" comment was a joke (hence
>>> the :P) - and the fact that rk ended with a dismissive "OUT".
>>
>> Yes, it very obviously was a joke but for some type 2's, including myself,
>> ANY food can bring me out of a hypo. Even mostly protein.
>>
>That's how I stop getting low bg crashes by eating a protein enriched
>breakfast - it allows me to last a few hours as opposed to a couple.
>Especially if I decide, on a whim, to go for long walks in the middle of
>nowhere. Wales is full of large expanses of green hills and mountains (with
>the odd castle on top!).
>
>I will normally eat 1 rasher of bacon, 2 poached eggs and a couple of
>mushrooms with a slice of linseed/soya toast - followed by a handful of
>raspberries and yoghurt.

Yes that's the A answer, fuel up *before* exercising so you don't get
as far as the hypo (or liver dump, depending on time of day)

I do low and fairly constant levels of gardening, housework, walking
etc. all the time, the a few times a year I'll have major purges on
the garden.

Last spring I really got my input sorted against my output, I added
some extra carbs and fat after my normal low-spike breakfast with the
intention of getting my BG up around 6 (110)efore starting, to avoid
the morning liver dump, then used a couple of oatcakes with almond
butter and some ryebread and butter as boluses during the exertion.

First it looked like I'd blown it as I went up to 7.1 (130) which was
probably the result of a minor infection rather than overcarbing, as
the entire rest of the day (including a prolonged gentle walk to
relieve the post-gardening stiffness) I was absolutely nailed at 4.8
(86) to the extent that I was tempted to bang my meter on the desk in
case it had gotten stuck . . .

>That one morning I dare to speak of again, I didnt allow myself time to eat
>properly - it was a slice of bread and a pear, I think. And, of course, a
>brisk walk on a steep hill caused me to plunge. My bg was 3.8 (68.4) - and
>how I managed to prick my finger, considering how bad my hands were shaking,
>I do not know!
>
>Before the days of dx, anything sugary (mainly mars bars, snickers,
>whatever) that I took when I felt *ill* would make me feel even sicker. So,
>I would crash into a bakery and buy myself a sandwich or a meat pasty of
>some kind and that would help immensely. But its only since dx that I find
>dark choc of the 70%+ variety that brings me up in a comfortable way.

In days of yore I realise I'd treat myself in similar circumstances
with a thick slice of Healthy Wholewheat Bread with cheese or peanut
butter, or a bacon butty, washed down with a cup of sweet coffee.

In retrospect I can now see that this was my attempt without really
knowing what I was doing to deal with the hypo I didn;t know I was
having: the fast carb (sugar in the coffee) would kick my BG up and
the bread would keep it up - far too high, of course, which would
cause a rebound low, and here we go roller-coastering again. This
would probably still be doable in the face of strenuous and continued
exercise, but IME small and often is the best way to override a broken
control system.

>I'm still learning about the complex and technical way in which we have to
>learn about the do's and dont's of diabetes and I have read that sugar IS
>the worst thing one can eat to bring bg up - but I simply find the lower
>sugar content of a dark choc bar enough to bring me out of the crash of low
>bg.
>
>It is about individuals chosen method of recuperation and its also about a
>person knowing their own body and its reactions to certain situations.
>And it is different for everyone.

Yes that's the point, to some extent us Type 2s are like a Type1 with
only a basal and no bolus - we may still have a workable Phase 2
without the Phase 1 and a really slow carb/fat combo over time is much
more doable than for a Type 1 who *needs* faster carbs to match the
insulin activity curve.

>Of course, the most obvious moral of the story (for me) is: eat a proper
>breakfast before engaging in any high impact, cardiovascular exercise.
>
>(Those ancient castles sure are pretty close up!!) )))
>
So's Castell Coch