Which home Espresso maker is the best for the money ???
and where can I get one ??
Thanks .....Jim

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:35:20 GMT, "Jimbo" > wrote:

>Which home Espresso maker is the best for the money ???
>and where can I get one ??
>Thanks .....Jim
>
There is a usenet group devoted to just such discussion - alt.coffee.

Additionally, you might want to look at some of the following web
sites just to get an idea of what is around..some sell, some do not:

www.coffeegeek.com
www.wholelattelove.com
http://www.1stincoffee.com/espresso-machines.asp

Espresso making at home can be a pricey habit if you let it, with the
better machines and appropriate grinders costing hundreds.

What is your budget? Do you want something that you can "play" with
or are you looking for something that is a bit more automatic?

Good luck.

Boron

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:35:20 GMT, "Jimbo" > wrote:

>Which home Espresso maker is the best for the money ???
>and where can I get one ??

As mentioned to you in another group, alt.coffee is the place to go.
One great site is www.wholelattelove.com.

The key question is exactly how much money you're talking about. You
can get answers for every level from $50 to $5000 quite easily.

And it's not just the espresso machine that matters -- for example, I
spent $1350 for my coffee grinder alone.

-- Larry

We have an all in one Saeco. We put beans in one bit, water in another and
then out comes the coffee. It makes cappuccino too. Great machine.

Viviane

"Jimbo" > wrote in message
news:YciQb.5697$U%5.30457@attbi_s03...
> Which home Espresso maker is the best for the money ???
> and where can I get one ??
> Thanks .....Jim
>
>

"Viviane" > wrote:

> We have an all in one Saeco. We put beans in one bit, water in another and
> then out comes the coffee. It makes cappuccino too. Great machine.

I love those - not because I have one, or because I particularly like
the espresso from an automated machine. I love those because we sold
enough to exceed our seasonal store budget by over 10%. :-)

Out of curiousity, how much did you pay for it?

Wow the grinder !!!!
TNX for the site tips They helped me select the Saeco Classic which is on
its way.
The will be a nice upgrade from my 12 year old Mr Coffee Espresso .

TNX Again Jim


"pltrgyst" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:35:20 GMT, "Jimbo" > wrote:
>
> >Which home Espresso maker is the best for the money ???
> >and where can I get one ??
>
> As mentioned to you in another group, alt.coffee is the place to go.
> One great site is www.wholelattelove.com.
>
> The key question is exactly how much money you're talking about. You
> can get answers for every level from $50 to $5000 quite easily.
>
> And it's not just the espresso machine that matters -- for example, I
> spent $1350 for my coffee grinder alone.
>
> -- Larry
>

Far as I can tell, someone wrote:
>Which home Espresso maker is the best for the money ???
>and where can I get one ??

On alt.coffee, I would say that far and away the most popular machine is
the Rancillio Sylvia, but ONLY worth getting after you get a quality
grinder. And most prefer the Rancillio Rocky for grinding.

Of course it all hinges on your budget. I've been using my Rocky/Sylvia
for several years and love them both.

But that might mean nothing to you, so go to alt.coffee and ask the
questions. It's a great group.

I do hope that you ordered a grinder too. It's pretty much impossible to
make proper espresso without a good grinder sitting right next to the
machine so that you can tune the grind appropriately. Buying preground or
grinding at the store won't do it. Neither will a whirly blade or cheap burr
mill like the Braun. Yes, you can make brown water gush forth, but for real,
properly extracted espresso a quality grinder is essential. People
(including even yourself) who say "but I've been making espresso without a
grinder for many years" just don't know what the espresso beverage is
supposed to be.

The grinder doesn't have to cost $1350 (what grinder is that?), but $100 or
$150 is not far off from the minimum you should expect to spend. You can't
really upgrade your espresso making with a new machine alone unless you get
the right grinder to go with it.



"Jimbo" > wrote in message
news:6qwQb.11622$U%5.62167@attbi_s03...
> Wow the grinder !!!!
> TNX for the site tips They helped me select the Saeco Classic which is on
> its way.
> The will be a nice upgrade from my 12 year old Mr Coffee Espresso .
>
> TNX Again Jim
>
>
> "pltrgyst" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:35:20 GMT, "Jimbo" > wrote:
> >
> > >Which home Espresso maker is the best for the money ???
> > >and where can I get one ??
> >
> > As mentioned to you in another group, alt.coffee is the place to go.
> > One great site is www.wholelattelove.com.
> >
> > The key question is exactly how much money you're talking about. You
> > can get answers for every level from $50 to $5000 quite easily.
> >
> > And it's not just the espresso machine that matters -- for example, I
> > spent $1350 for my coffee grinder alone.
> >
> > -- Larry
> >
>
>

It's a Saeco Magic Deluxe. We paid $1200 (Australian dollars) in Oct 2001.
Seemed a good price at the time and they haven't come down much, in spite of
the fact that the Australian dollar has gone up considerably.

"Blanche Nonken" > wrote in message
...
> "Viviane" > wrote:
>
> > We have an all in one Saeco. We put beans in one bit, water in another
and
> > then out comes the coffee. It makes cappuccino too. Great machine.
>
> I love those - not because I have one, or because I particularly like
> the espresso from an automated machine. I love those because we sold
> enough to exceed our seasonal store budget by over 10%. :-)
>
> Out of curiousity, how much did you pay for it?

"Viviane" > wrote:

> It's a Saeco Magic Deluxe. We paid $1200 (Australian dollars) in Oct 2001.
> Seemed a good price at the time and they haven't come down much, in spite of
> the fact that the Australian dollar has gone up considerably.

I don't know what the exchange rate at the time was - ours was going for
a holiday sale price of US$699. It's at full retail right now,
somewhere in the neighborhood of US$900.

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:32:41 GMT, Blanche Nonken >
wrote:

>"Viviane" > wrote:
>
>> It's a Saeco Magic Deluxe. We paid $1200 (Australian dollars) in Oct 2001.
>> Seemed a good price at the time and they haven't come down much, in spite of
>> the fact that the Australian dollar has gone up considerably.
>
>I don't know what the exchange rate at the time was - ours was going for
>a holiday sale price of US$699. It's at full retail right now,
>somewhere in the neighborhood of US$900.

There are still deals to be had in the US. I found it for $724, no
tax, free ground shipping.
http://www.appliances.com/x0x2786x2389/3988.html&Ref=F


Boron

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:32:24 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> wrote:

>The grinder doesn't have to cost $1350 (what grinder is that?)

A Ditting 800 (www.ditting.com), including a spare set of burrs. Sort
of like the supermarket mills, but you generally only find Dittings in
coffee houses and specialty food shops. About 24" tall, does a pound
of beans in ~45 seconds, with adjustment settings dead-on every time.
Undoubtedly the greatest extravagance of my life, but I do love it.
Even my wife has never criticised that purchase, since the loves the
coffee.

It's like a BMW in terms of machinery...

-- Larry

I know the Ditting and it's a fine grinder, but what it does best is do what
you say - grind a lb. of beans quickly while customers wait in a shop. It's
faster but not necessarily better than somewhat less expensive grinders.
Also the size means that it won't fit under kitchen cabinets. As you say, it
is a high quality Swiss version of those grinders we see in supermarkets.

For home espresso, something like the Mazzer Mini is much more suitable and
costs only 1/4 the price. The quality of the grind would be just as good
(and more finely adjustable, key for espresso) . Admittedly slower - the
amount espresso you need for a double would take about 15 seconds to grind.
A full lb. would take several minutes, but you should never grind more than
you are going to use in the next few minutes anyway. The Mini is currently
the king of home espresso grinders (it is actually meant to be a commercial
grinder - typically a cafe will have a larger espresso grinder such as the
Mazzer Jolly as its main grinder and the Mini would be the decaf grinder).
Despite the commercial roots, it still fits comfortably underneath most
kitchen cabinets.


"pltrgyst" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:32:24 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> > wrote:
>
> >The grinder doesn't have to cost $1350 (what grinder is that?)
>
> A Ditting 800 (www.ditting.com), including a spare set of burrs. Sort
> of like the supermarket mills, but you generally only find Dittings in
> coffee houses and specialty food shops. About 24" tall, does a pound
> of beans in ~45 seconds, with adjustment settings dead-on every time.
> Undoubtedly the greatest extravagance of my life, but I do love it.
> Even my wife has never criticised that purchase, since the loves the
> coffee.
>
> It's like a BMW in terms of machinery...
>
> -- Larry
>

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:34:23 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> wrote:

>I know the Ditting and it's a fine grinder, but what it does best is do what
>you say - grind a lb. of beans quickly while customers wait in a shop. It's
>faster but not necessarily better than somewhat less expensive grinders.
>Also the size means that it won't fit under kitchen cabinets. As you say, it
>is a high quality Swiss version of those grinders we see in supermarkets.
>
>For home espresso, something like the Mazzer Mini is much more suitable and
>costs only 1/4 the price. The quality of the grind would be just as good
>(and more finely adjustable, key for espresso) .

I would agree with all you say, except for that last parenthetic
clause. Any finer adjustment than the Ditting offers would, IMO, be
pointless; it is an extremely tight (that is, both accurate and
repeatable) machine.

-- Larry

Just to explain further, the Mazzer (somewhat unusual even for an espresso
grinder) offers infinite adjustment. You loosen a retaining knob, turn the
adjusting collar as little as you need (sometimes a hair will make a
difference - in espresso you are shooting for a very narrow range of
extraction times and volumes and even a small change in the grind makes a
suprisingly big difference - too coarse and water gushes thru, a little less
may be perfect - at least until the humidity the room changes or you switch
from regular to decaf - and a just a hair beyond perfect all extraction
ceases because the fine grinds block the pump completely) and then retighen
the retainer. These are small differences in grind that you wouldn't even
notice if you were making drip or another less finicky method. Other
espresso grinders take the approach of having very fine "clicks" and
dividing the wheel into 40, 50 or more segments, each one only a few
degrees. IIRC the Ditting has only settings 1 to 9, with one being Turkish
and too fine for espresso and 9 being French press. Unless my recollection
is wrong and there are no clicks - in other words can you set it for 1.7 or
2.24 or does it always click onto 1,2,3 ,etc? If the latter, there just
aren't enough settings for espresso. You might get lucky and on any given
day and for any given bean, one of the numbers would correspond to the right
grind for your espresso machine, but chances are it would be only
approximately right and with no way to make a fine adjustment, repeatability
just means that you could continue to repeat the same slightly incorrect
grind.

"pltrgyst" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:34:23 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> > wrote:
>
> >I know the Ditting and it's a fine grinder, but what it does best is do
what
> >you say - grind a lb. of beans quickly while customers wait in a shop.
It's
> >faster but not necessarily better than somewhat less expensive grinders.
> >Also the size means that it won't fit under kitchen cabinets. As you say,
it
> >is a high quality Swiss version of those grinders we see in supermarkets.
> >
> >For home espresso, something like the Mazzer Mini is much more suitable
and
> >costs only 1/4 the price. The quality of the grind would be just as good
> >(and more finely adjustable, key for espresso) .
>
> I would agree with all you say, except for that last parenthetic
> clause. Any finer adjustment than the Ditting offers would, IMO, be
> pointless; it is an extremely tight (that is, both accurate and
> repeatable) machine.
>
> -- Larry
>

I have to state that I am not a coffee drinker, so this discussion is of
only academic interest to me.

However, there is a question that I have. Using the rather expensive
equipment that some people seem to have, what sort of coffee do you use,
to make the equipment worthwhile?

Do you roast the beans yourself, or do you rely on a supplier to do that?

Are there beans out there whose quality justifies a $1300 grinder? Of
course, if one has enough money, then a $1300 grinder is not a luxury!

--
Jerry Bank
Trenton, New Jersey
Music is the language of the gods.

In article >,
Jack Denver > wrote:

> Just to explain further, the Mazzer (somewhat unusual even for an espresso
> grinder) offers infinite adjustment. You loosen a retaining knob, turn the
> adjusting collar as little as you need (sometimes a hair will make a
> difference - in espresso you are shooting for a very narrow range of
> extraction times and volumes and even a small change in the grind makes a
> suprisingly big difference - too coarse and water gushes thru, a little less
> may be perfect - at least until the humidity the room changes or you switch
> from regular to decaf - and a just a hair beyond perfect all extraction
> ceases because the fine grinds block the pump completely) and then retighen
> the retainer.

Small correction: there is no retaining knob in a Mazzer to be loosened
and tightened. You simply turn the adjusting collar. Three fairly stiff
springs push up against adjusting collar, keeping it tightly in place,
without the requirement of a locking mechanism.

--
Seth Goodman

Oops I was thinking of the Super Jolly which does have a retaining knob. Or
is that the knob to hold the bean bin in? My mind plays tricks with
me...I've only played with a Mazzer a couple of times, my home grinder is a
Rossi RR45 (a different commercial grinder). The "stepless" adjustment (or
an ability to make very fine stepped adjustments) is the important thing.
If the Ditting only has the large increment 1 thru 9 clicks, then it is a
problem. If it too is "stepless" (again my recollection is not that good)
then it would be good for espresso, if a bit (a lot actually) on the
overkill side.


"Seth Goodman" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Jack Denver > wrote:
>
> > Just to explain further, the Mazzer (somewhat unusual even for an
espresso
> > grinder) offers infinite adjustment. You loosen a retaining knob, turn
the
> > adjusting collar as little as you need (sometimes a hair will make a
> > difference - in espresso you are shooting for a very narrow range of
> > extraction times and volumes and even a small change in the grind makes
a
> > suprisingly big difference - too coarse and water gushes thru, a little
less
> > may be perfect - at least until the humidity the room changes or you
switch
> > from regular to decaf - and a just a hair beyond perfect all extraction
> > ceases because the fine grinds block the pump completely) and then
retighen
> > the retainer.
>
> Small correction: there is no retaining knob in a Mazzer to be loosened
> and tightened. You simply turn the adjusting collar. Three fairly stiff
> springs push up against adjusting collar, keeping it tightly in place,
> without the requirement of a locking mechanism.
>
> --
> Seth Goodman

Actually I do roast at home. You're right to say that if you start out with
stale beans (and most of the coffee sold pre-roasted is various degrees of
stale) then having the greatest grinder in the world won't help. OTOH,
having fresh beans and grinding them in a $20 whirly blade won't do either,
especially for espresso. Nor will it do to have a good grinder and fresh
beans and brew them in a steam driven (pumpless) espresso machine. To get
the drink right, all the pieces have to be in place. The Italians talk about
the 4 M's : Macinazione is correct grinding, Miscela is the coffee blend,
Macchina is the espresso machine, and Mano is the skilled hand of the
barista (the machine operator).

Personally, I don't think you can cost justify a $1300 grinder at home, no
matter how rich you are. Now if I had a shop and was selling ground coffee
by the lb., a Ditting would be the way to go and well worth the money, but
in home use it just can't be justified You can however, cost justify a $400
grinder like the Mazzer Mini because it offers somewhat better performance
than say a $200 grinder like the Rancilio Rocky, which in turn is better
than a $100 grinder like the Solis. Below that point, espresso grinders are
not just worse, they are completely unacceptable.


For any appliance, there is a minimum price you must pay to get the least
acceptable machine that will do the job. Below that point you are just
wasting your money because you'll be back soon to buy the "real thing"
instead of the toy version. After that, each additonal dollar you spend
gets you a little more performance or appearance or something. But at some
point in any product purchase, returns begin to diminish so that a lot more
money gets you very little extra value. They key in any product is finding
what that sweet spot is...in some products the sweet spot comes very early
and you can buy toward the cheaper end of the spectrum (though very rarely
is the sweet spot at the absolutely cheapest item). In others, you have to
go way up on the spectrum before the returns start to diminish. And of
course, how wealthy you are and how finicky you are play a role. To me, that
$24,000 DVD player (yes such a thing exists) may appear to perform just like
a $50 one, but to the person with the "golden ear" they would (claim that
they could) hear/see the difference.

"Jerry Bank" > wrote in message
.com...
> I have to state that I am not a coffee drinker, so this discussion is of
> only academic interest to me.
>
> However, there is a question that I have. Using the rather expensive
> equipment that some people seem to have, what sort of coffee do you use,
> to make the equipment worthwhile?
>
> Do you roast the beans yourself, or do you rely on a supplier to do that?
>
> Are there beans out there whose quality justifies a $1300 grinder? Of
> course, if one has enough money, then a $1300 grinder is not a luxury!
>
> --
> Jerry Bank
> Trenton, New Jersey
> Music is the language of the gods.

In article >,
Jack Denver > wrote:

> Oops I was thinking of the Super Jolly which does have a retaining knob. Or
> is that the knob to hold the bean bin in?


No retaining knob in the SJ, either (or the Major, for that matter).

You're probably thinking of the "Grinding Adjustment Disk Handle", which
screws into the adjustment ring to give some added leverage and control
when moving the adjustment ring.

Full manual for the Mazzer Mini, SJ, and Major:

http://www.coffeegeek.com/files/37/usamazzergrinder.pdf

(BTW, I sent you a brief email a week or so ago at the [possibly fake]
address you use on Usenet. Did you ever receive it?)

--
Seth Goodman

Yes, that's the handle that I was thinking of. I for some reason (memory
trick) remembered it as a setscrew but it's actually just a grab handle I
realize now. Really not a significant point for everyone else reading this,
but thanks for straightening me out.

If this was an email regarding the c-member #, I did get it. Thanks. The
email is real but is primarily filled with spam so I check it rarely but I
do check it eventually.

"Seth Goodman" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Jack Denver > wrote:
>
> > Oops I was thinking of the Super Jolly which does have a retaining knob.
Or
> > is that the knob to hold the bean bin in?
>
>
> No retaining knob in the SJ, either (or the Major, for that matter).
>
> You're probably thinking of the "Grinding Adjustment Disk Handle", which
> screws into the adjustment ring to give some added leverage and control
> when moving the adjustment ring.
>
> Full manual for the Mazzer Mini, SJ, and Major:
>
> http://www.coffeegeek.com/files/37/usamazzergrinder.pdf
>
> (BTW, I sent you a brief email a week or so ago at the [possibly fake]
> address you use on Usenet. Did you ever receive it?)
>
> --
> Seth Goodman

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:09:53 -0500, Jerry Bank
> wrote:

>However, there is a question that I have. Using the rather expensive
>equipment that some people seem to have, what sort of coffee do you use,
>to make the equipment worthwhile?
>
>Do you roast the beans yourself, or do you rely on a supplier to do that?

We've never gotten the alt.coffee semi-fanatical roasting bug. One
reason is that we've got an extraordinary coffee shop that roasts all
its own beans about two blocks from our house (Misha's, in Alexandria,
VA). I've also had very good luck with the quick shipping of excellent
freshly-roasted, vacuum-packed beans from Baltimore Coffee and Tea, on
the Web.

>Are there beans out there whose quality justifies a $1300 grinder? Of
>course, if one has enough money, then a $1300 grinder is not a luxury!

As the owner of the aforementioned grinder: no. It certainly is a
luxury. Nobody needs a grinder like this unless they're making coffee
for a living.

My wife and I both love good, rich French coffee -- that is, the
French grand cafe noir, or multiple shots of espresso in a cup -- for
breakfast and after dinner. We have a Gaggia Classic (about a $400
machine) that we've been very pleased with for years, and a Jura E-75
full automatic that doesn't makes such good coffee, but is
tremendously convenient. We also make very rich drip coffee using a
*very* fine grind in a Krups (or Braun) drip machine.

The monster grinder is a rock-solid, precision machine that lets me
grind exactly what I want every time, just by setting the dial to its
designated settings -- I've never even had to calibrate it. I only do
about two pounds a week.

My wife and I both cook, and we're serious about good food, wine, and
whisky. So our extravagances are all in the kitchen -- the grinder,
the copper pans we haul home from Dehillerin in Paris, and the two
huge, overflowing knife blocks. Sigh.

-- Larry

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:06:00 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> wrote:

>If the Ditting only has the large increment 1 thru 9 clicks, then it is a
>problem. If it too is "stepless" (again my recollection is not that good)
>then it would be good for espresso, if a bit (a lot actually) on the
>overkill side.

It is stepless, with excellent repeatability.

-- Larry