I have had several dishwashers over almost 40 years of housekeeping
and never had dishes etch. I only rinse a dish that has something
caked on. Occasionally something comes out of the dishewasher not
perfectly clean so we rinse it again. I can't imagine spending the
time to wash dishes before the dishwasher washes the dishes.

Frank Lynch > wrote in message >. ..
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:19:28 -0500, in a clarity of expression
> resembling Cicero, The Cook > wrote:
>
> >I rinse the dishes before they go in and my husband still thinks that
> >they have to be almost washed beforehand. And as I said, no etching.
>
> Check your manual: you may not need to do any rinsing at all (beyond a
> good scrape of the leftovers into the trash). Our GE's manual says the
> only time we need to rinse beforehand is when it's a cereal on
> stoneware, everything else will come off.
>
> Frank Lynch
> The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page is at:
> http://www.samueljohnson.com/

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:42:32 -0500, in a clarity of expression
resembling Cicero, The Cook > wrote:

>Frank Lynch > wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:19:28 -0500, in a clarity of expression
>>resembling Cicero, The Cook > wrote:
>>
>>>I rinse the dishes before they go in and my husband still thinks that
>>>they have to be almost washed beforehand. And as I said, no etching.
>>
>>Check your manual: you may not need to do any rinsing at all (beyond a
>>good scrape of the leftovers into the trash). Our GE's manual says the
>>only time we need to rinse beforehand is when it's a cereal on
>>stoneware, everything else will come off.
>
>Since I have never had any problems with my dishwashers I see no need
>to change my system. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Who pays for your water usage?

Frank Lynch
The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page is at:
http://www.samueljohnson.com/

>> Note that the Bosch service people told us
>> NOT to rinse the dishes before loading, but
>> only SCRAPE with a spatula. They claim that
>> leaving food residue on the dishes helps
>> because without something else to work on,
>> the detergent will attack the finish on dishes.
>> They claim scraping rather than rinsing
>> prolongs the life of glasses and china.
>>
>> Rick

>Thomas A Bruno wrote in message ...
>
>Oh, this is hard to accept.
>
>If you use a spatula only, doesn't the plate get
>"rinsed" in the first 15 seconds of the dishwasher
>cycle, and then the detergent is "eating away at
>the the finish" from then on?

When a dishwasher goes through its pre-rinse, it does not
*immediately* drain that water away. It and the particles it removed
from the plates, etc. is still in the dishwasher for the detergent to
act upon.

>What kind of dishes have such a delicate finish
>that dishwasher detergent will erode them?

It's most noticeable on glass and crystal. Try holding a glass up to a
light and see if there is a 'rainbow' effect. If there is, your glass
has already starting etching.

JFYI

Dan O.
-
Appliance411.com
http://ng.Appliance411.com/?ref411=dishwasher+use

=Ð~~~~~~

(Bliss) wrote in message . com>...
> I have had several dishwashers over almost 40 years of housekeeping
> and never had dishes etch. I only rinse a dish that has something
> caked on. Occasionally something comes out of the dishewasher not
> perfectly clean so we rinse it again. I can't imagine spending the
> time to wash dishes before the dishwasher washes the dishes.
>

No etching here, either, but I have some everyday glassware with a red
design that has faded slightly over time.

I agree with your philosophy. I also only rinse if the dish is heavily
soiled. I don't have time to prewash my dishes. If an occasional item
doesn't look clean at the end of the cycle I just run it through again
with the next load.

Sometimes if the dryer is "on," the food not washed off will bake on.
dee


"scorpiogirl" > wrote in message
om...
> (Bliss) wrote in message
. com>...
> > I have had several dishwashers over almost 40 years of housekeeping
> > and never had dishes etch. I only rinse a dish that has something
> > caked on. Occasionally something comes out of the dishewasher not
> > perfectly clean so we rinse it again. I can't imagine spending the
> > time to wash dishes before the dishwasher washes the dishes.
> >
>
> No etching here, either, but I have some everyday glassware with a red
> design that has faded slightly over time.
>
> I agree with your philosophy. I also only rinse if the dish is heavily
> soiled. I don't have time to prewash my dishes. If an occasional item
> doesn't look clean at the end of the cycle I just run it through again
> with the next load.

I have some glasses that if I can take a correct picture of that will
reflect the etching, I will put them on a website, so you can see what kind
of glass that will etch. I certainly didn't think these glasses would etch.
They are good quality and sturdy glasses.
Dee




"Graham" > wrote in message
news:lRZFb.800517$9l5.708163@pd7tw2no...
>
> "Thomas A Bruno" > wrote in message
> ...
> > in article , Java
Man
> > (Espressopithecus) at wrote on 12/22/03 8:33 AM:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > says...
> > > > They claim scraping rather than rinsing prolongs the life of glasses
> > > and china.
> > >
> > > I haven't been doing it long enough to know whether this is true.
> > >
> > > Rick
> >
> > Oh, this is hard to accept.
> >
> > If you use a spatula only, doesn't the plate get "rinsed" in the first
15
> > seconds of the dishwasher cycle, and then the detergent is "eating away
at
> > the the finish" from then on?
> >
> > What kind of dishes have such a delicate finish that dishwasher
detergent
> > will erode them?
> > --
>
> I started this etching thread and for me the only glassware items that
have
> been seriously etched have been the "pyrex" type, thick measuring jugs
that
> are commonly available in kitchen and hardware stores. They have become
> completely frosted so that the measuring lines and numbers are no longer
> visible.
>
> Graham
>
>

"Dee Randall" > wrote in message
...
> Sometimes if the dryer is "on," the food not washed off will bake on.
> dee
>
>
> "scorpiogirl" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (Bliss) wrote in message
> . com>...
> > > I have had several dishwashers over almost 40 years of housekeeping
> > > and never had dishes etch. I only rinse a dish that has something
> > > caked on. Occasionally something comes out of the dishewasher not
> > > perfectly clean so we rinse it again. I can't imagine spending the
> > > time to wash dishes before the dishwasher washes the dishes.
> > >
> >
> > No etching here, either, but I have some everyday glassware with a red
> > design that has faded slightly over time.
> >
> > I agree with your philosophy. I also only rinse if the dish is heavily
> > soiled. I don't have time to prewash my dishes. If an occasional item
> > doesn't look clean at the end of the cycle I just run it through again
> > with the next load.
>
>

So, you take it out of the dishwasher, add some water and let it soak for
awhile. It comes off. We have that trouble with oatmeal fragments.

Dawn

"Graham" > wrote in
news:lRZFb.800517$9l5.708163@pd7tw2no:

>
> "Thomas A Bruno" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in article , Java
>> Man (Espressopithecus) at wrote on 12/22/03 8:33 AM:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > says...
>> > > They claim scraping rather than rinsing prolongs the life of
>> > > glasses
>> > and china.
>> >
>> > I haven't been doing it long enough to know whether this is true.
>> >
>> > Rick
>>
>> Oh, this is hard to accept.
>>
>> If you use a spatula only, doesn't the plate get "rinsed" in the
>> first 15 seconds of the dishwasher cycle, and then the detergent is
>> "eating away at the the finish" from then on?
>>
>> What kind of dishes have such a delicate finish that dishwasher
>> detergent will erode them?
>> --
>
> I started this etching thread and for me the only glassware items that
> have been seriously etched have been the "pyrex" type, thick measuring
> jugs that are commonly available in kitchen and hardware stores. They
> have become completely frosted so that the measuring lines and numbers
> are no longer visible.
>
> Graham

We have never pre-rinsed dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.
We have also experienced the same etching on measuring cups but on
absolutely nothing else. I've never understood why this seems to be a
"Pyrex" problem, when all other glassware, including heavier crystal,
shows no signs of etching. Strange...

Wayne

Frank Lynch > wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:42:32 -0500, in a clarity of expression
>resembling Cicero, The Cook > wrote:
>
>>Frank Lynch > wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:19:28 -0500, in a clarity of expression
>>>resembling Cicero, The Cook > wrote:
>>>
>>>>I rinse the dishes before they go in and my husband still thinks that
>>>>they have to be almost washed beforehand. And as I said, no etching.
>>>
>>>Check your manual: you may not need to do any rinsing at all (beyond a
>>>good scrape of the leftovers into the trash). Our GE's manual says the
>>>only time we need to rinse beforehand is when it's a cereal on
>>>stoneware, everything else will come off.
>>
>>Since I have never had any problems with my dishwashers I see no need
>>to change my system. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
>
>Who pays for your water usage?
>
>Frank Lynch
>The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page is at:
>http://www.samueljohnson.com/


Santa Claus
--
Susan N.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.

In article >,
says...
> "Graham" > wrote in
> news:lRZFb.800517$9l5.708163@pd7tw2no:
>
> >
> > "Thomas A Bruno" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> in article , Java
> >> Man (Espressopithecus) at wrote on 12/22/03 8:33 AM:
> >>
> >> > In article >,
> >> > says...
> >> > > They claim scraping rather than rinsing prolongs the life of
> >> > > glasses
> >> > and china.
> >> >
> >> > I haven't been doing it long enough to know whether this is true.
> >> >
> >> > Rick
> >>
> >> Oh, this is hard to accept.
> >>
> >> If you use a spatula only, doesn't the plate get "rinsed" in the
> >> first 15 seconds of the dishwasher cycle, and then the detergent is
> >> "eating away at the the finish" from then on?
> >>
> >> What kind of dishes have such a delicate finish that dishwasher
> >> detergent will erode them?
> >> --
> >
> > I started this etching thread and for me the only glassware items that
> > have been seriously etched have been the "pyrex" type, thick measuring
> > jugs that are commonly available in kitchen and hardware stores. They
> > have become completely frosted so that the measuring lines and numbers
> > are no longer visible.
> >
> > Graham
>
> We have never pre-rinsed dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.
> We have also experienced the same etching on measuring cups but on
> absolutely nothing else. I've never understood why this seems to be a
> "Pyrex" problem, when all other glassware, including heavier crystal,
> shows no signs of etching. Strange...
>
I Google for some additional information, and it seems that using too
much detergent contributes to "etching". This may be why our service
people told us that rinsing [rather than scraping] the dishes causes
etching. I suspect rinsed dishes require less detergent, but people
still use the recommended amount of detergent whether they rinse or
scrape.

See: http://www.wqa.org/sitelogic.cfm?ID=352

Rick

For those who might be interested, I have put a couple of pics of my etched
glasses that I feel were caused by using "dry dishwasher soap." I have
switched since to liquid dishwasher soap. I have no idea if that will or
has stopped etching.

http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com...ssesetched.htm

Dee




"DawnK" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dee Randall" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Sometimes if the dryer is "on," the food not washed off will bake on.
> > dee
> >
> >
> > "scorpiogirl" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > (Bliss) wrote in message
> > . com>...
> > > > I have had several dishwashers over almost 40 years of housekeeping
> > > > and never had dishes etch. I only rinse a dish that has something
> > > > caked on. Occasionally something comes out of the dishewasher not
> > > > perfectly clean so we rinse it again. I can't imagine spending the
> > > > time to wash dishes before the dishwasher washes the dishes.
> > > >
> > >
> > > No etching here, either, but I have some everyday glassware with a red
> > > design that has faded slightly over time.
> > >
> > > I agree with your philosophy. I also only rinse if the dish is heavily
> > > soiled. I don't have time to prewash my dishes. If an occasional item
> > > doesn't look clean at the end of the cycle I just run it through again
> > > with the next load.
> >
> >
>
> So, you take it out of the dishwasher, add some water and let it soak for
> awhile. It comes off. We have that trouble with oatmeal fragments.
>
> Dawn
>
>

"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Graham" > wrote in
> news:lRZFb.800517$9l5.708163@pd7tw2no:
>
> >
> > "Thomas A Bruno" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> in article , Java
> >> Man (Espressopithecus) at wrote on 12/22/03 8:33 AM:
> >>
> >> > In article >,
> >> > says...
> >> > > They claim scraping rather than rinsing prolongs the life of
> >> > > glasses
> >> > and china.
> >> >
> >> > I haven't been doing it long enough to know whether this is true.
> >> >
> >> > Rick
> >>
> >> Oh, this is hard to accept.
> >>
> >> If you use a spatula only, doesn't the plate get "rinsed" in the
> >> first 15 seconds of the dishwasher cycle, and then the detergent is
> >> "eating away at the the finish" from then on?
> >>
> >> What kind of dishes have such a delicate finish that dishwasher
> >> detergent will erode them?
> >> --
> >
> > I started this etching thread and for me the only glassware items that
> > have been seriously etched have been the "pyrex" type, thick measuring
> > jugs that are commonly available in kitchen and hardware stores. They
> > have become completely frosted so that the measuring lines and numbers
> > are no longer visible.
> >
> > Graham
>
> We have never pre-rinsed dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.
> We have also experienced the same etching on measuring cups but on
> absolutely nothing else. I've never understood why this seems to be a
> "Pyrex" problem, when all other glassware, including heavier crystal,
> shows no signs of etching. Strange...
>
> Wayne

Etching is a function of the chemical composition of the glass - not all
glasses are the same, and in my experience it has nothing to do with the
quality or cost of the item. I've had cheap wine glasses that etch and
others that are still crystal clear after dozens of washing. Rule of thumb:
if you don't want it to etch, hand-wash it.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Java Man (Espressopithecus) wrote in message ...
>
>I Google for some additional information, and it seems that using too
>much detergent contributes to "etching".

Too much detergent for the particular *water hardness* being used. The
softer the water, the less detergent should be used.

For soft water (0-3 grains), Maytag recommends 3 tsp. of detergent.
For 4-9 grains, 4-9 tsp. of detergent.
For hard water (10-13 grains), 10-12 tsp. of detergent.
For very heard water (14+ grains), a water softener is recommended.

You may be able to get a couple of "hard water test strips" at a local
water filer dealer if they think you may be interested in purchasing a
unit.

BTW. Using too hot of water can also facilitate etching. Most
dishwasher and detergent manufacturers recommend between 120°F and
140°F wash water. Anything higher may lead to etching, anything less
may not allow the detergent to work properly.

JFYI

Dan O.
-
Appliance411.com
http://ng.Appliance411.com/?ref411=Maytag+dishwasher

=Ð~~~~~~

OK. So I guess I will go with the Bosch and be careful about the scraping
and etching. You never know where a post will go. Thanks for all the
comments and advice.
Dee: Is there some sort of subliminal activity going on in the bottom pic
of your etching? Gives the old line "Would you like to come back to my
place and see my etchings?" a new meaning...

"Skeeter" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone have any comments on repair historys and support? I am about to
take
> the plunge and want to get any last minute thoughts on their reliability
and
> how I will be treated if it does break down.
> Thanks
>
>

"Skeeter" > wrote in message
...
> OK. So I guess I will go with the Bosch and be careful about the scraping
> and etching.
==
Good choice. My Bosch has a delicate cycle that I use for vintage glassware.
I have not had any problems yet. My greatest concern is color fade on
vintage pieces that are not made to take the high heat of a regular cycle.
Are you going to buy from Sears so you can go back to them for service
if needed?
==
==

--<snip>Perhaps there was something subliminal --<snip>

-- you are very perceptive --
as I was wanting to background the glass, I grabbed nearby a nice Japanese
scarf that a Japanese artist in the 1980's had given me. Perhaps IT showed
some etching marks on it! So the above glass in the picture is perhaps the
best representative

I do have a set of Japanese-made dishes that I have used for everyday wear
for 30 years now. They are called "rain" glass and they are indeed in a
pattern of ETCHED glass, - 5 piece place setting, plus all the extras. The
plates and glasses which are used more than saucers, etc.have been
completely clouded over by dishwasher over the years. I know this is
etching done by the dishwasher vs. soap baking on them (and that I believe
happens, too) as washing, soaking in vinegar and everything else by hand
does not de-cloud them.

Dee



"Skeeter" > wrote in message
...
> OK. So I guess I will go with the Bosch and be careful about the scraping
> and etching. You never know where a post will go. Thanks for all the
> comments and advice.
> Dee: Is there some sort of subliminal activity going on in the bottom pic
> of your etching? Gives the old line "Would you like to come back to my
> place and see my etchings?" a new meaning...
>
> "Skeeter" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Anyone have any comments on repair historys and support? I am about to
> take
> > the plunge and want to get any last minute thoughts on their reliability
> and
> > how I will be treated if it does break down.
> > Thanks
> >
> >
>
>

"Dan O." > wrote in message
...
>
> >Jon Endres, PE wrote in message ...
> >
>
> >I hate my Kitchenaid dishwasher - it deposits all
> >those particles that the grinder doesn't dispose
> >of, right back inside all the glassware on the upper
> >rack. I will never own another one with a grinder.
>
> Sounds more like you have a problem with yours that needs looking
> into. Possible causes are an improperly installed drain hose or a
> problem in the pump's "check valve".
>
> I would suggest you put $100 into having a *professional* look into it
> for you rather than spending $800+ on a new dishwasher.

Checked both. Drain hose was routed exactly according to manufacturer's
instructions, by the local appliance shop, and the check valve was replaced.
Neither had very much effect. The only way we can get glassware clean is by
washing on the bottom rack.

Jon

"Jon Endres, PE" t>
wrote in t:

> "Dan O." > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> >Jon Endres, PE wrote in message ...
>> >
>>
>> >I hate my Kitchenaid dishwasher - it deposits all
>> >those particles that the grinder doesn't dispose
>> >of, right back inside all the glassware on the upper
>> >rack. I will never own another one with a grinder.
>>
>> Sounds more like you have a problem with yours that needs looking
>> into. Possible causes are an improperly installed drain hose or a
>> problem in the pump's "check valve".
>>
>> I would suggest you put $100 into having a *professional* look into
>> it for you rather than spending $800+ on a new dishwasher.
>
> Checked both. Drain hose was routed exactly according to
> manufacturer's instructions, by the local appliance shop, and the
> check valve was replaced. Neither had very much effect. The only way
> we can get glassware clean is by washing on the bottom rack.
>
> Jon

I haven't read all of this thread, but are somehow blocking the top rack
from underneath? Assuming you have a wash arm right under the top rack,
perhaps it is either clogged or blocked. Over the years we had several
KitchenAid Superba models in different houses. We never experienced the
problem you describe, although I must admit that the construction quality
has dropped dramatically in recent years. Our most recent KA was built
in 2001, but we have since moved. We were already getting some rust in
the SS tub.

Wayne

>> >Jon Endres, PE wrote in message ...
>> >
>> >I hate my Kitchenaid dishwasher - it deposits all
>> >those particles that the grinder doesn't dispose
>> >of, right back inside all the glassware on the upper
>> >rack. I will never own another one with a grinder.

>> Sounds more like you have a problem with yours
>> that needs looking into. Possible causes are an
>> improperly installed drain hose or a problem in
>> the pump's "check valve".
>>
>> I would suggest you put $100 into having a
>> *professional* look into it for you rather than
>> spending $800+ on a new dishwasher.

>Jon Endres, PE wrote
>
>Checked both. Drain hose was routed exactly
>according to manufacturer's instructions, by the
>local appliance shop, and the check valve was
>replaced. Neither had very much effect. The
>only way we can get glassware clean is by
>washing on the bottom rack.

I'm afraid I can't tell you where the problem is looking from here but
I am confident there is a problem in your unit and it is not an
inherent problem with the brand. Some models may need a revised upper
spray arm but your condition can also be caused by insufficient water
amoung other things.

If you've had a *factory authorized* KitchenAid service depot out to
check it out and they couldn't find the problem, I suggest you ask for
a different technician or call a whole different *factory authorized*
KitchenAid service depot to look into it for you. There are usually
several in any given area.

JMO

Dan O.
-
Appliance411.com
http://ng.Appliance411.com/?ref411=K...Aid+dishwasher

=Ð~~~~~~

To Dee:
There has got to be a significant difference between US and European
DW-detergents.
I've practically never seen etchings like yours, but instead a uniform
cloudiness.

To Skeeter:
What everyone, except perhaps one poster, seems to overlook here is the
equally important question of interior layout of the machine. While of
course buying a reasonably high end machine, you should look very closely at
the differences there.

I've got a Bosh about 7-8 years old, that has never needed repairs, and
although I've got no complaints about it's abillity to wash dishes, glasses,
flatware, pots and indeed anything I stuff into it, the actual stuffing is
the problem. The bottom layer only just allows for things about the height
of an ordinaty dinner plate, anything higher has to go into the top layer,
including utensils much higher than a standard dinner knife, big lids etc.,
and of course the force of the water is less in the top layer.
What I'd really like is something like the Miele ( unfortunately probably
not sold in US, being a danish product ). It's definitely high end, it has
got a tall bottom layer, a shallower upper layer and a shallow top tray for
flatware etc.Unfortunately the price is supreme end.

To several posters:
In a small family you have to rinse reasonably well before placing in the
DW, if you only run the machine when it's full (about every two days ). I
may be wrong here, considering water and energy use it might in reality be
cheaper to just bung it in and run the rinse program daily, or even to wash
daily. Any thoughts on this?

Kim

"Skeeter" > wrote in message
...
> OK. So I guess I will go with the Bosch and be careful about the scraping
> and etching. You never know where a post will go. Thanks for all the
> comments and advice.
> Dee: Is there some sort of subliminal activity going on in the bottom pic
> of your etching? Gives the old line "Would you like to come back to my
> place and see my etchings?" a new meaning...
>
> "Skeeter" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Anyone have any comments on repair historys and support? I am about to
> take
> > the plunge and want to get any last minute thoughts on their reliability
> and
> > how I will be treated if it does break down.
> > Thanks
> >
> >
>
>

"Dan O." > wrote in message
...
>
>
> >> >Jon Endres, PE wrote in message ...
> >> >
> >> >I hate my Kitchenaid dishwasher - it deposits all
> >> >those particles that the grinder doesn't dispose
> >> >of, right back inside all the glassware on the upper
> >> >rack. I will never own another one with a grinder.
>
> >> Sounds more like you have a problem with yours
> >> that needs looking into. Possible causes are an
> >> improperly installed drain hose or a problem in
> >> the pump's "check valve".
> >>
> >> I would suggest you put $100 into having a
> >> *professional* look into it for you rather than
> >> spending $800+ on a new dishwasher.
>
> >Jon Endres, PE wrote
> >
> >Checked both. Drain hose was routed exactly
> >according to manufacturer's instructions, by the
> >local appliance shop, and the check valve was
> >replaced. Neither had very much effect. The
> >only way we can get glassware clean is by
> >washing on the bottom rack.
>
> I'm afraid I can't tell you where the problem is looking from here but
> I am confident there is a problem in your unit and it is not an
> inherent problem with the brand. Some models may need a revised upper
> spray arm but your condition can also be caused by insufficient water
> amoung other things.
>
> If you've had a *factory authorized* KitchenAid service depot out to
> check it out and they couldn't find the problem, I suggest you ask for
> a different technician or call a whole different *factory authorized*
> KitchenAid service depot to look into it for you. There are usually
> several in any given area.

There's a couple other KA service places near me, I'll call around. The
upper arm was replaced. Lots of water pressure and flow. Can't figure it
out. We have been using a liquid because of resolidification concerns with
powdered detergents in the septic tank, will be switching to a powder soon.

We'll only be living here about another year, but I hate to stick the next
owner (or a tenant) with a POS dishwasher.

Next one will be a Bosch anyway.

Jon E