Cooking Equipment (rec.food.equipment) Discussion of food-related equipment. Includes items used in food preparation and storage, including major and minor appliances, gadgets and utensils, infrastructure, and food- and recipe-related software.

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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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Vox Humana wrote:

> Look, I'm a dentist. You don't know what you're talking about. You are
> right about fluoridated water being of little benefit to adults. The rest
> of this is simply a political argument.


I dont care if you are a dentist. Makes little difference since
dentists all have differing views on the subject. I do agree that its
more of a political argument though.

  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Baugh
 
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Yes, but which is easiest to dispose of?

graham > wrote in message
news:TSknb.200497$6C4.197131@pd7tw1no...
>
> "Michael Baugh" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Fluorine is a byproduct of some industrial processes.

>
>
> So are wieners!
>
>



  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:04:43 -0500, "Michael Baugh"
> wrote:

>Yes, but which is easiest to dispose of?
>
>graham > wrote in message
>news:TSknb.200497$6C4.197131@pd7tw1no...
>>
>> "Michael Baugh" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> > Fluorine is a byproduct of some industrial processes.

>>
>>
>> So are wieners!
>>
>>

>

Im sure you lads are aware..that there is a huge difference between
Flourine, and flouride..right?

I should remind you of the old chemistry rhyme...

Johnny was a chemist
but Jonny is no more.
What Jonny thought was H2O
Was H2SO4


http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dol...m/elem009.html

Some nasty stuff..its not nice to see people burst into flame.

Gunner


Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"Miles" > wrote in message
news:83lnb.35959$Rd4.2872@fed1read07...
>
>
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
> > Look, I'm a dentist. You don't know what you're talking about. You are
> > right about fluoridated water being of little benefit to adults. The

rest
> > of this is simply a political argument.

>
> I dont care if you are a dentist. Makes little difference since
> dentists all have differing views on the subject. I do agree that its
> more of a political argument though.
>


We're aren't taking about different views. There were two statements of
fact: 1) Children have "soft" teeth, and 2) topical fluoride treatments are
more effective than systemic fluoride. Both of these statements are false.


  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
graham
 
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"Gunner" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:04:43 -0500, "Michael Baugh"
> > wrote:
>
> >Yes, but which is easiest to dispose of?
> >
> >graham > wrote in message
> >news:TSknb.200497$6C4.197131@pd7tw1no...
> >>
> >> "Michael Baugh" > wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >> > Fluorine is a byproduct of some industrial processes.
> >>
> >>
> >> So are wieners!
> >>
> >>

> >

> Im sure you lads are aware..that there is a huge difference between
> Flourine, and flouride..right?
>
> I should remind you of the old chemistry rhyme...
>
> Johnny was a chemist
> but Jonny is no more.
> What Jonny thought was H2O
> Was H2SO4
>
>
> http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dol...m/elem009.html
>
> Some nasty stuff..its not nice to see people burst into flame.
>
> Gunner
>
>
> Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
> clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals

are
> so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry


But conservatives are so dumb that they don't notice when their freedoms are
taken away!




  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:51:12 GMT, "graham" > wrote:

>
>"Gunner" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:04:43 -0500, "Michael Baugh"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Yes, but which is easiest to dispose of?
>> >
>> >graham > wrote in message
>> >news:TSknb.200497$6C4.197131@pd7tw1no...
>> >>
>> >> "Michael Baugh" > wrote in message
>> >> .. .
>> >> > Fluorine is a byproduct of some industrial processes.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So are wieners!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >

>> Im sure you lads are aware..that there is a huge difference between
>> Flourine, and flouride..right?
>>
>> I should remind you of the old chemistry rhyme...
>>
>> Johnny was a chemist
>> but Jonny is no more.
>> What Jonny thought was H2O
>> Was H2SO4
>>
>>
>> http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dol...m/elem009.html
>>
>> Some nasty stuff..its not nice to see people burst into flame.
>>
>> Gunner
>>
>>
>> Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
>> clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals

>are
>> so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry

>
>But conservatives are so dumb that they don't notice when their freedoms are
>taken away!
>

We have noticed this for the past 60+ years. Its just taken this long
to get off our asses and start swinging the country to the Right, and
makeing Liberals irrelevant, and sinking the DNC, though the Dems
have gone a long way to committing political suicide all on their own.
The hybrid Socialist/Fascist agenda most Neo-Libs and Dems display,
has finally caused enough Joe Sixpacks to get up and start voting.

Ever since that rat ******* FDR, the Lefties have been taking away our
freedoms, one small slice at a time. Fortunately, that is coming to an
end, and with a bit of luck, the Lefties will all be doing the Spandau
Ballet on lamp posts in every town and city.

Got Rope?

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry
  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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Vox Humana wrote:
>
> We're aren't taking about different views. There were two statements of
> fact: 1) Children have "soft" teeth, and 2) topical fluoride treatments are
> more effective than systemic fluoride. Both of these statements are false.


You seem to think that your view is the only one ALL dentists have on
the matter. That would be 100% false.

  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
BonnieJean
 
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"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Miles" > wrote in message
> news:83lnb.35959$Rd4.2872@fed1read07...
> >
> >
> > Vox Humana wrote:
> >
> > > Look, I'm a dentist. You don't know what you're talking about. You

are
> > > right about fluoridated water being of little benefit to adults. The

> rest
> > > of this is simply a political argument.

> >
> > I dont care if you are a dentist. Makes little difference since
> > dentists all have differing views on the subject. I do agree that its
> > more of a political argument though.
> >

>
> We're aren't taking about different views. There were two statements of
> fact: 1) Children have "soft" teeth, and 2) topical fluoride treatments

are
> more effective than systemic fluoride. Both of these statements are

false.

I understand that. And people today have infinitely less cavities because of
systemic fluoride. But can't parents take the respondibility of putting it
in their kids water, etc, so the rest of the population isn't forced to
ingest it? I agree with both view points here. If parents would only take
that responsibility on, we would all be happier. Unfortunately, too many
people want the government to take care of them. I am not one of them.

Bonnie


  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"BonnieJean" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Miles" > wrote in message
> > news:83lnb.35959$Rd4.2872@fed1read07...
> > >
> > >
> > > Vox Humana wrote:
> > >
> > > > Look, I'm a dentist. You don't know what you're talking about. You

> are
> > > > right about fluoridated water being of little benefit to adults.

The
> > rest
> > > > of this is simply a political argument.
> > >
> > > I dont care if you are a dentist. Makes little difference since
> > > dentists all have differing views on the subject. I do agree that its
> > > more of a political argument though.
> > >

> >
> > We're aren't taking about different views. There were two statements of
> > fact: 1) Children have "soft" teeth, and 2) topical fluoride treatments

> are
> > more effective than systemic fluoride. Both of these statements are

> false.
>
> I understand that. And people today have infinitely less cavities because

of
> systemic fluoride. But can't parents take the respondibility of putting

it
> in their kids water, etc, so the rest of the population isn't forced to
> ingest it? I agree with both view points here. If parents would only take
> that responsibility on, we would all be happier. Unfortunately, too many
> people want the government to take care of them. I am not one of them.


Again, that is a political question. Some people see themselves as the
government and see their elected officials as an extension of themselves.
Therefore, when the "government" does something, it is their agent doing
their will. Others see the "government" as a black box that acts contrary
to their will. We won't resolve that difference here. There is no system
that would be seen as 100% beneficial for all people at all times. You could
argue that the government should not be in the water business at all, let
alone forcing good dental health on people by delivering fluoridated water
to their home.




  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"Miles" > wrote in message
news:iUDnb.36197$Rd4.7538@fed1read07...
>
>
> Vox Humana wrote:
> >
> > We're aren't taking about different views. There were two statements of
> > fact: 1) Children have "soft" teeth, and 2) topical fluoride treatments

are
> > more effective than systemic fluoride. Both of these statements are

false.
>
> You seem to think that your view is the only one ALL dentists have on
> the matter. That would be 100% false.
>


No. You are arguing a different point. I accept that all dentists may not
have the same view. I am stating proven facts. Systemic fluoride is more
effective at preventing cavities than topical fluoride treatments and that
childrens' teeth are not soft. Of course, if you have some information that
refutes these accepted facts, I would be willing to review it. Remember,
that someone doesn't hold a particular belief doesn't meant that the point
is a matter of dispute. People are free to believe what they want no matter
how foolish or ill-informed.


  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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BonnieJean wrote:


> I understand that. And people today have infinitely less cavities because of
> systemic fluoride. But can't parents take the respondibility of putting it
> in their kids water, etc, so the rest of the population isn't forced to
> ingest it? I agree with both view points here. If parents would only take
> that responsibility on, we would all be happier. Unfortunately, too many
> people want the government to take care of them. I am not one of them.


Thats contary to the liberals views though. They want Government to
take responsibility for them. They need Government to tell them whats
good for them. Parents do not teach their kids responsibility these
days. They coddle them, protect them from failure and blame their
problems on someone else. Many politicians prey on that, keep them
oppressed and gain their votes. Like you, I hope we can return to the
days where people were responsible for themselves and made their own
decisions to their wellbeing.

  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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Vox Humana wrote:

> People are free to believe what they want no matter
> how foolish or ill-informed.


Correct and you have demonstrated that through complete arrogance. Your
statements are not fact. They are opinion. Your opinion.

  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"Miles" > wrote in message
news:eviob.37873$Rd4.2683@fed1read07...
>
>
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
> > People are free to believe what they want no matter
> > how foolish or ill-informed.

>
> Correct and you have demonstrated that through complete arrogance. Your
> statements are not fact. They are opinion. Your opinion.


My opinion based on peer reviewed research by the Center for Disease
Control, the American Dental Association, and other trusted institutions.
Any your opinion is based on what? I'm still waiting to see the sources
that support your positions that 1) topical fluoride treatments are more
effective than systemic fluoride, and 2) children have "soft" teeth.


  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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Vox Humana wrote:
> My opinion based on peer reviewed research by the Center for Disease
> Control, the American Dental Association, and other trusted institutions.
> Any your opinion is based on what? I'm still waiting to see the sources
> that support your positions that 1) topical fluoride treatments are more
> effective than systemic fluoride, and 2) children have "soft" teeth.


You're talking politics more than facts. Your 'trusted' institutions
are those that you agree with aparently. That must mean the majority
that are in disagreement are 'untrusted' to you. Most of the world
dental institutions disagree with your assertations. All of my family
dentists disagree as well.

I'm sure you'll disagree but many world institutions and many USA
dentists firmly believe topical treatments are more effective than
systemic fluoride especially in adults where teeth are already formed.

Tell me, why is Fluorosis far more common in countries that put
fluoride in drinking water than other countries? Why is it that the
levels of fluoride on average in USA drinking water exceeds what the
worlds dental institutions recommend?

Lastly, why business is it of our Government to force fluoride in our
drinking water? If I wish to add it, I can. Let me decide whats best
for me and my family and you decide for yourself. In the end, your
statements are your opinion. So are mine. The different institutions
are in disagreement.



  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"Miles" > wrote in message
news:h6Dob.38285$Rd4.10112@fed1read07...
>
>
>
> I'm sure you'll disagree but many world institutions and many USA
> dentists firmly believe topical treatments are more effective than
> systemic fluoride especially in adults where teeth are already formed.


Why would I disagree? I stated as much several posts back. Of course,
adding fluoride to water is a public health measure and isn't targeted
primarily towards adults. There is some benefit to adults, but children
benefit most. It must be tough to choke down that fluoridated water when
all you see is a future generation of people with good dental health, but
don't get much personal benefit.


>
> Tell me, why is Flores's far more common in countries that put
> fluoride in drinking water than other countries? Why is it that the
> levels of fluoride on average in USA drinking water exceeds what the
> worlds dental institutions recommend?


The recommended level of fluoride in water supplies is 0.7 ppm. At that
level there should be no fluorosis. If the level of fluoride in your water
exceed 0.7 PPM you should contact the water utility company and ask THEM why
they choose to exceed the recommended dosage.


>
> Lastly, why business is it of our Government to force fluoride in our
> drinking water? If I wish to add it, I can. Let me decide whats best
> for me and my family and you decide for yourself. In the end, your
> statements are your opinion. So are mine. The different institutions
> are in disagreement.



I can't help you cope with living in a civilized world. Many of us choose
to participate in a society that values a common defense, clean air and
water, public services such as police and fire protection, a standardized
highway system, public education, and so on. Short of moving to rural Idaho
and living off the grid in a yurt like Raymond Kaczynski, you have to take
the good with the bad. I know of no system where everyone shares the same
values and agree on everything. I see no problem with people having an
abortion if they choose, or for *** people to marry. For those who don't
want an abortion then don't have one. If you don't like the water, don't
drink it. Don't want to marry someone of the same sex - don't. I find it
ironic that the people who bitch the loudest about the tyranny of big
government also tend to be one same ones who what to micro-manage the
private lives of others. They complain about a few molecules of this or
that in the water but vote for people like George Bush who expand the size
and scope of government. Frankly, I'm more concerned about the likes of
John Ashcroft and his patriot act than I am about fluoride in the water.


  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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Vox Humana wrote:

>Dozens of ranting snipped.


Oh man....you lost it big time. From Fluoride to abortion, to
anti-bush, gays etc. Kinda hit em all eh? At least you indirectly
realized that politics is what its all about and not health.

  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"Miles" > wrote in message
news:6dCpb.64$Cj1.58@fed1read07...
>
>
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
> >Dozens of ranting snipped.

>
> Oh man....you lost it big time. From Fluoride to abortion, to
> anti-bush, gays etc. Kinda hit em all eh? At least you indirectly
> realized that politics is what its all about and not health.
>


I knew you would eventually admit that it is all politics.


  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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Vox Humana wrote:

> "Miles" > wrote in message
> news:6dCpb.64$Cj1.58@fed1read07...
>
>>
>>Vox Humana wrote:
>>
>> >Dozens of ranting snipped.

>>
>>Oh man....you lost it big time. From Fluoride to abortion, to
>>anti-bush, gays etc. Kinda hit em all eh? At least you indirectly
>>realized that politics is what its all about and not health.
>>

>
>
> I knew you would eventually admit that it is all politics.


Reverse retort? I already said that early on. Being that it's politics
I vote to let me and my doctors/dentists decide whats good for me rather
than the Government who is clueless.

  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"Miles" > wrote in message
news:x6Epb.85$Cj1.68@fed1read07...
>
>
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
> > "Miles" > wrote in message
> > news:6dCpb.64$Cj1.58@fed1read07...
> >
> >>
> >>Vox Humana wrote:
> >>
> >> >Dozens of ranting snipped.
> >>
> >>Oh man....you lost it big time. From Fluoride to abortion, to
> >>anti-bush, gays etc. Kinda hit em all eh? At least you indirectly
> >>realized that politics is what its all about and not health.
> >>

> >
> >
> > I knew you would eventually admit that it is all politics.

>
> Reverse retort? I already said that early on. Being that it's politics
> I vote to let me and my doctors/dentists decide whats good for me rather
> than the Government who is clueless.
>


That is your right. No one will come to your home and make you drink the
water. There is no doubt that putting fluoride in water is one of the most
successful and cost effective public health measure ever undertaken. By the
way, have you noticed that most insurance companies will not pay for
fluoride treatment for adults? They are only marginally effective for
adults. I would be very surprised if your dentist advocated removing
fluoride from the public water supply.




  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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Vox Humana wrote:
> I would be very surprised if your dentist advocated removing
> fluoride from the public water supply.


He does just that. So do many other dentists worldwide. Any gains made
are largly negated by adverse effects, healthwise, politically and
fiscally. I realize that is my opinion and not yours so no need to
refute it, you already have.

  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"Miles" > wrote in message
news:yQXpb.216$Cj1.199@fed1read07...
>
>
> Vox Humana wrote:
> > I would be very surprised if your dentist advocated removing
> > fluoride from the public water supply.

>
> He does just that. So do many other dentists worldwide. Any gains made
> are largly negated by adverse effects, healthwise, politically and
> fiscally. I realize that is my opinion and not yours so no need to
> refute it, you already have.
>


What are the "adverse effects" at 0.7 PPM?


  #63 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mary Shafer
 
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On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:50:53 GMT, "Vox Humana" >
wrote:

> That is your right. No one will come to your home and make you drink the
> water. There is no doubt that putting fluoride in water is one of the most
> successful and cost effective public health measure ever undertaken. By the
> way, have you noticed that most insurance companies will not pay for
> fluoride treatment for adults? They are only marginally effective for
> adults.


Maybe for teeth, but drinking fluoridated water has been shown to
reduce hip fractures in the elderly.

> I would be very surprised if your dentist advocated removing
> fluoride from the public water supply.


Me, too.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

  #64 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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Vox Humana wrote:

> What are the "adverse effects" at 0.7 PPM?


Not a valid question since the level exceeds .7 ppm in numerous areas
around the country. But, many studies have shown serious health
problems such as skeletal fluorosis, kidney impairment etc. You'll
refute these I'm sure but they are well documented. Read JAMA 222:783 -
785. If you're a dentist you'll know what that is. There is concern
to many doctors with the effects on people with immune disorders and
diabetes. You seem to not point out that the body retains fluoride.
The kidney's do not remove 100% of typical daily intake. The other
issue is that intake of fluoride comes from MANY other sources besides
water. You can't avoid it. Putting it in water does nothing but
elevate the already high levels found elsewhere. Whats worse is the
form used in water. A waste byproduct.

  #65 (permalink)   Report Post  
Miles
 
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Mary Shafer wrote:

>
>
> Maybe for teeth, but drinking fluoridated water has been shown to
> reduce hip fractures in the elderly.



That is a myth that has been disproven by many. Studies have shown more
of the opposite is true. Some suggest it increases bone development.
Possibly but other studies have shown any increased development is in
the form of weaker overall bone structure. It is a subject of debate still.

However, the studies I believe you refer to are known as sodium fluoride
,calcium citrate and vitamin D therapy. They have largly been proven to
cause more harm than good. This is also not the same as the waste
byproduct form of fluoride found in drinking water.



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