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Cooking Equipment (rec.food.equipment) Discussion of food-related equipment. Includes items used in food preparation and storage, including major and minor appliances, gadgets and utensils, infrastructure, and food- and recipe-related software. |
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"LeRoy" > wrote in message ... > > "June Hughes" > wrote in message > ... >> In message >, LeRoy >> > writes >>> >>> >>>We use bottled gas in France - never any problems at all. Very >>>cost-effective, I think the flame's hotter than over here (don't know >>>whether that's true) and it's a total necessity for my Chinese cooking, >>>IMHO. >>> >>>We keep the bottle covered away under the counter in a corner and don't >>>really worry about it at all, but it's easily turned off if needs be - we >>>turn it off when we come back to the UK. >>> >> Slightly OT but still about bottled gas - Is that the same gas as you >> would use for an outdoor barbie? I worry about ours. >> -- >> June Hughes > > It is the same gas. My DH says that there is special LPG for cold outdoor > use/ outside storage, as it freezes in colder weather! > The school buses here use propane gas instead of petrol. The kids get a day off sometimes in the middle of winter when the temp drops below -30șC. Graham |
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"sarah" > wrote in message k... > Syke > wrote: > > > At present, I have an electric, solid-plate hob. Ideally, I would like gas, > > mainly for controlability. We aren't on mains gas and I don't want bottled. > > Would anyone with experience care to comment on the merits/de-merits of the > > other alternatives, halogen and do on, particularly regarding control. > > > Pat, I'd simply comment that I didn't want bottled gas either (I think > the bottles look too much like bombs waiting for a detonator), but after > cooking on mains gas for 5 years, then a solid fuel/oil-fired range for > another 6, I gritted my teeth and went for bottled gas when the > opportunity arrived. > I don't regret it at all. > > regards > sarah > > > -- > Think of it as evolution in action. Here in The Bahamas we have two choices for cooking bottled gas (LPG) or electricity which no one can afford to use. So I have been using LPG for the past 20 years and never had any difficulty except when I buy a new stove as the burners have to be converted to use LPG rather than natural gas. Weirdly, a lot of our stoves come from Canada where I assume they cook with natural. Mind you, I wouldn't dream of keeping my gas cylinder that hold 100lb of gas inside my house!! It has its own little shed on the outside to protect it from the elements and only gets moved when a hurricane is coming! Ahhh, the joys of living in the tropics. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.799 / Virus Database: 543 - Release Date: 11/19/2004 |
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"Ophelia" > wrote in message ... > > "sarah" > wrote in message > k... > > Syke > wrote: > > > >> At present, I have an electric, solid-plate hob. Ideally, I would like > >> gas, > >> mainly for controlability. We aren't on mains gas and I don't want > >> bottled. > >> Would anyone with experience care to comment on the merits/de-merits of > >> the > >> other alternatives, halogen and do on, particularly regarding control. > > > > > > Pat, I'd simply comment that I didn't want bottled gas either (I think > > the bottles look too much like bombs waiting for a detonator), but after > > cooking on mains gas for 5 years, then a solid fuel/oil-fired range for > > another 6, I gritted my teeth and went for bottled gas when the > > opportunity arrived. > > I don't regret it at all. > > > > When I lived in Malta I was in an area of no piped gas. The bottles were > fine and I never had any problems with them > > O I agree. To me the main thing was having the bottles outside, which is unusual in Italy. Most people have them under the sink. The plumber grumbled at having to put the copper pipes through the 3 foot thick walls, but I then was sanguine about saftey. Now I have a buried 500 liter tank far from the house and feel even better about it. I love having an electric oven, but hate electric surfaces. |
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"Ophelia" > wrote in message ... > > "sarah" > wrote in message > k... > > Syke > wrote: > > > >> At present, I have an electric, solid-plate hob. Ideally, I would like > >> gas, > >> mainly for controlability. We aren't on mains gas and I don't want > >> bottled. > >> Would anyone with experience care to comment on the merits/de-merits of > >> the > >> other alternatives, halogen and do on, particularly regarding control. > > > > > > Pat, I'd simply comment that I didn't want bottled gas either (I think > > the bottles look too much like bombs waiting for a detonator), but after > > cooking on mains gas for 5 years, then a solid fuel/oil-fired range for > > another 6, I gritted my teeth and went for bottled gas when the > > opportunity arrived. > > I don't regret it at all. > > > > When I lived in Malta I was in an area of no piped gas. The bottles were > fine and I never had any problems with them > > O I agree. To me the main thing was having the bottles outside, which is unusual in Italy. Most people have them under the sink. The plumber grumbled at having to put the copper pipes through the 3 foot thick walls, but I then was sanguine about saftey. Now I have a buried 500 liter tank far from the house and feel even better about it. I love having an electric oven, but hate electric surfaces. |
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In article > ,
sarah > wrote: > Syke > wrote: > > At present, I have an electric, solid-plate hob. Ideally, I would like gas, > > mainly for controlability. We aren't on mains gas and I don't want bottled. > > Would anyone with experience care to comment on the merits/de-merits of the > > other alternatives, halogen and do on, particularly regarding control. > Pat, I'd simply comment that I didn't want bottled gas either (I think > the bottles look too much like bombs waiting for a detonator), but after > cooking on mains gas for 5 years, then a solid fuel/oil-fired range for > another 6, I gritted my teeth and went for bottled gas when the > opportunity arrived. > I don't regret it at all. Our neighbours have "bottled gas" but in a tank which looks like an oil tank with similar delivery arrangements. May be worth seeing what possibilities there are there. JAne > regards > sarah -- Jane Gillett : : Totnes, Devon. |
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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:20:55 +0000, June Hughes
> wrote: | In message >, Dave Fawthrop | > writes | >On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:42:37 -0000, "LeRoy" > | >wrote: | > | > | >| I'm sure the same health and safety guidelines are relevant in France as in | >| the UK for the same product! | >| | >| Our bottle is stored a safe distance from the cooker in an open under | >| worktop area covered in a nice not twee way (!!) by a curtain. There's lots | >| of ventilation - we call it indoor camping whilst we are renovating and all | >| our neighbours do the same thing. I'm sure it's as safe as I need (and I'm | >| cautious). | > | >In the UK, many houses are sealed tight against drafts, and ventilation, in | >our house with UPVC doors and windows ventilation, is at a premium. June | >insists that we only have ventilation through the cat flap. Not quite | >true. I would be a bit careful about LPG inside. We have about half a | >dozen cylinders in the garage, too valuable to throw away. | > | What is your heating run on? You should have a ventilator in the wall. | (Or something equivalent). The cat-flap is not good enough. This is not | a joke, or a cheeky comment, Dave. We run on mains gas with the correct ventilation hole. I read the instruction and cut the 9 sq ins hole myself. I did say the cat flap comment was "Not quite true". I have some carefully controlled ventilation via the windows, and a number of small gaps which I have deliberately not sealed up. But ventilation is now at the minimum I consider reasonable. The comment was mainly about UK housing in general. On Cooper Grove of 16 ordinary 1960s houses 10 have UPVC windows and the rest have new wooden windows, all of which will have reduced the ventilation drastically. When we had the old wooden windows I ran LPG for "indoor camping" without concern. I would now be *very* careful about LPG in the house. -- Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Killfile and Anti Troll FAQs at http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile. |
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On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:20:55 +0000, June Hughes
> wrote: | In message >, Dave Fawthrop | > writes | >On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:42:37 -0000, "LeRoy" > | >wrote: | > | > | >| I'm sure the same health and safety guidelines are relevant in France as in | >| the UK for the same product! | >| | >| Our bottle is stored a safe distance from the cooker in an open under | >| worktop area covered in a nice not twee way (!!) by a curtain. There's lots | >| of ventilation - we call it indoor camping whilst we are renovating and all | >| our neighbours do the same thing. I'm sure it's as safe as I need (and I'm | >| cautious). | > | >In the UK, many houses are sealed tight against drafts, and ventilation, in | >our house with UPVC doors and windows ventilation, is at a premium. June | >insists that we only have ventilation through the cat flap. Not quite | >true. I would be a bit careful about LPG inside. We have about half a | >dozen cylinders in the garage, too valuable to throw away. | > | What is your heating run on? You should have a ventilator in the wall. | (Or something equivalent). The cat-flap is not good enough. This is not | a joke, or a cheeky comment, Dave. We run on mains gas with the correct ventilation hole. I read the instruction and cut the 9 sq ins hole myself. I did say the cat flap comment was "Not quite true". I have some carefully controlled ventilation via the windows, and a number of small gaps which I have deliberately not sealed up. But ventilation is now at the minimum I consider reasonable. The comment was mainly about UK housing in general. On Cooper Grove of 16 ordinary 1960s houses 10 have UPVC windows and the rest have new wooden windows, all of which will have reduced the ventilation drastically. When we had the old wooden windows I ran LPG for "indoor camping" without concern. I would now be *very* careful about LPG in the house. -- Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Killfile and Anti Troll FAQs at http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile. |
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:08:58 GMT, "Judith Umbria" >
wrote: | Now I have a buried 500 liter tank | far from the house and feel even better about it. If it has no ventilation at the bottom of the hole it is a bomb waiting to go off. LPG falls to the bottom of holes, mixes with air and if set alight In the UK a buried LPG tank would just not: happen, be allowed, get insurance, or even AFAIK get filled by the supplier. They are all on the surface. Two versions of the rules have been quoted upthread. -- Dave F |
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:08:58 GMT, "Judith Umbria" >
wrote: | Now I have a buried 500 liter tank | far from the house and feel even better about it. If it has no ventilation at the bottom of the hole it is a bomb waiting to go off. LPG falls to the bottom of holes, mixes with air and if set alight In the UK a buried LPG tank would just not: happen, be allowed, get insurance, or even AFAIK get filled by the supplier. They are all on the surface. Two versions of the rules have been quoted upthread. -- Dave F |
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LeRoy > wrote:
[-] > > We use bottled gas in France - never any problems at all. Very > cost-effective, I think the flame's hotter than over here (don't know > whether that's true) yes, it is. Propane burns hotter than natural gas. Or so I've been told by two different certified[1] gas engineers. regards sarah [1] At least I saw the gas certification. Don't know about any others :-) -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
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June Hughes > wrote:
> In message >, Dave Fawthrop > > writes > >On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:46:27 -0000, "LeRoy" > > >wrote: > > > >| We use bottled gas in France - never any problems at all. Very > >| cost-effective, I think the flame's hotter than over here (don't know > >| whether that's true) and it's a total necessity for my Chinese cooking, > >| IMHO. > >| > >| We keep the bottle covered away under the counter in a corner and don't > >| really worry about it at all, but it's easily turned off if needs be - we > >| turn it off when we come back to the UK. > > > >In the UK LPG bottles should be stored outside or in a well ventilated > >area. See: > >http://www.solihull.gov.uk/wwwes/hs/infosheets/lpg.htm > > > I wouldn't like to store one indoors. Isn't the gas heavy and therefore > rises from the floor if it leaks? (Delving into memory from ancient > schooldays). Yes, it does. But if one is aware of this and takes precautions, I don't think I'd worry too much about it. regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
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"June Hughes" wrote
| >... June insists that we only have ventilation through the | > cat flap. | What is your heating run on? You should have a ventilator in the | wall. (Or something equivalent). The cat-flap is not good enough. | This is not a joke, or a cheeky comment, Dave. Almost all British boilers are room-sealed, and take in air for combusion and expel the by-products of combustion through a balanced flue to the outside. More stringent energy efficiency requirements mean that it is now difficult, and will soon be almost impossible, to fit an open flued gas boiler in a new installation. Owain |
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"June Hughes" wrote
| >... June insists that we only have ventilation through the | > cat flap. | What is your heating run on? You should have a ventilator in the | wall. (Or something equivalent). The cat-flap is not good enough. | This is not a joke, or a cheeky comment, Dave. Almost all British boilers are room-sealed, and take in air for combusion and expel the by-products of combustion through a balanced flue to the outside. More stringent energy efficiency requirements mean that it is now difficult, and will soon be almost impossible, to fit an open flued gas boiler in a new installation. Owain |
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Phil C. > wrote:
[-] > ISTM that although gas is ideally preferable to even the best halogen > hob in terms of controllability and instant heat, either is _luxury_ > compared to an Aga. I had one in the 1970s (oil-fired) and couldn't > wait to get rid of the great useless white elephant. <Ducks and runs, > albeit very slowly> As the AGA heats :-) I was very fond of the solid fuel range at times. When the wind was in the right direction the roasting oven disgorged some lovely roasts and bread. My MiL had an Aga installed for their XXth wedding anniversary; she loved it, but then they could afford to have a separate electric cooker and central heating as well. I think the ranges work quite well for traditional dishes where fast, accurate heat is unnecessary. regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
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Phil C. > wrote:
[-] > ISTM that although gas is ideally preferable to even the best halogen > hob in terms of controllability and instant heat, either is _luxury_ > compared to an Aga. I had one in the 1970s (oil-fired) and couldn't > wait to get rid of the great useless white elephant. <Ducks and runs, > albeit very slowly> As the AGA heats :-) I was very fond of the solid fuel range at times. When the wind was in the right direction the roasting oven disgorged some lovely roasts and bread. My MiL had an Aga installed for their XXth wedding anniversary; she loved it, but then they could afford to have a separate electric cooker and central heating as well. I think the ranges work quite well for traditional dishes where fast, accurate heat is unnecessary. regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
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"sarah" > wrote in message ... > LeRoy > wrote: > > [-] >> >> We use bottled gas in France - never any problems at all. Very >> cost-effective, I think the flame's hotter than over here (don't know >> whether that's true) > > yes, it is. Propane burns hotter than natural gas. Or so I've been told > by two different certified[1] gas engineers. > > > regards > sarah > > [1] At least I saw the gas certification. Don't know about any others > :-) > Ahh - I knew I wasn't imagining it - in France, I'm sometimes unsure what is real and what is red wine consumption. :Ź)) pat (in England now... :Ź} ) |
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"sarah" > wrote in message ... > LeRoy > wrote: > > [-] >> >> We use bottled gas in France - never any problems at all. Very >> cost-effective, I think the flame's hotter than over here (don't know >> whether that's true) > > yes, it is. Propane burns hotter than natural gas. Or so I've been told > by two different certified[1] gas engineers. > > > regards > sarah > > [1] At least I saw the gas certification. Don't know about any others > :-) > Ahh - I knew I wasn't imagining it - in France, I'm sometimes unsure what is real and what is red wine consumption. :Ź)) pat (in England now... :Ź} ) |
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Dave Fawthrop > wrote in message >. ..
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:08:58 GMT, "Judith Umbria" > > wrote: > > | Now I have a buried 500 liter tank > | far from the house and feel even better about it. > > If it has no ventilation at the bottom of the hole it is a bomb waiting to > go off. LPG falls to the bottom of holes, mixes with air and if set alight > > In the UK a buried LPG tank would just not: happen, be allowed, get > insurance, or even AFAIK get filled by the supplier. They are all on the > surface. Two versions of the rules have been quoted upthread. S**T! Someone had better tell Shell and Calor they're breaking the rules! http://www.calor.co.uk/installers/th...nderground.htm |
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Dave Fawthrop > wrote in message >. ..
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:08:58 GMT, "Judith Umbria" > > wrote: > > | Now I have a buried 500 liter tank > | far from the house and feel even better about it. > > If it has no ventilation at the bottom of the hole it is a bomb waiting to > go off. LPG falls to the bottom of holes, mixes with air and if set alight > > In the UK a buried LPG tank would just not: happen, be allowed, get > insurance, or even AFAIK get filled by the supplier. They are all on the > surface. Two versions of the rules have been quoted upthread. S**T! Someone had better tell Shell and Calor they're breaking the rules! http://www.calor.co.uk/installers/th...nderground.htm |
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On 26 Nov 2004 00:25:22 -0800, (Zikki
Malambo) wrote: | Dave Fawthrop > wrote in message >. .. | > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:08:58 GMT, "Judith Umbria" > | > wrote: | > | > | Now I have a buried 500 liter tank | > | far from the house and feel even better about it. | > | > If it has no ventilation at the bottom of the hole it is a bomb waiting to | > go off. LPG falls to the bottom of holes, mixes with air and if set alight | > | > In the UK a buried LPG tank would just not: happen, be allowed, get | > insurance, or even AFAIK get filled by the supplier. They are all on the | > surface. Two versions of the rules have been quoted upthread. | | S**T! Someone had better tell Shell and Calor they're breaking the rules! | | http://www.calor.co.uk/installers/th...nderground.htm Interesting. This is just the *marketing* page. It does not show how they comply with the government and Calors own rules which I mentioned. -- Dave F |
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On 26 Nov 2004 00:25:22 -0800, (Zikki
Malambo) wrote: | Dave Fawthrop > wrote in message >. .. | > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:08:58 GMT, "Judith Umbria" > | > wrote: | > | > | Now I have a buried 500 liter tank | > | far from the house and feel even better about it. | > | > If it has no ventilation at the bottom of the hole it is a bomb waiting to | > go off. LPG falls to the bottom of holes, mixes with air and if set alight | > | > In the UK a buried LPG tank would just not: happen, be allowed, get | > insurance, or even AFAIK get filled by the supplier. They are all on the | > surface. Two versions of the rules have been quoted upthread. | | S**T! Someone had better tell Shell and Calor they're breaking the rules! | | http://www.calor.co.uk/installers/th...nderground.htm Interesting. This is just the *marketing* page. It does not show how they comply with the government and Calors own rules which I mentioned. -- Dave F |
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On 26 Nov 2004 00:25:22 -0800, (Zikki
Malambo) wrote: | Dave Fawthrop > wrote in message >. .. | > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:08:58 GMT, "Judith Umbria" > | > wrote: | > | > | Now I have a buried 500 liter tank | > | far from the house and feel even better about it. | > | > If it has no ventilation at the bottom of the hole it is a bomb waiting to | > go off. LPG falls to the bottom of holes, mixes with air and if set alight | > | > In the UK a buried LPG tank would just not: happen, be allowed, get | > insurance, or even AFAIK get filled by the supplier. They are all on the | > surface. Two versions of the rules have been quoted upthread. | | S**T! Someone had better tell Shell and Calor they're breaking the rules! | | http://www.calor.co.uk/installers/th...nderground.htm Interesting. This is just the *marketing* page. It does not show how they comply with the government and Calors own rules which I mentioned. -- Dave F |
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In uk.food+drink.misc Jane Gillett > wrote:
> In article > , > sarah > wrote: > > Syke > wrote: > > > > At present, I have an electric, solid-plate hob. Ideally, I would like gas, > > > mainly for controlability. We aren't on mains gas and I don't want bottled. > > > Would anyone with experience care to comment on the merits/de-merits of the > > > other alternatives, halogen and do on, particularly regarding control. > > > > Pat, I'd simply comment that I didn't want bottled gas either (I think > > the bottles look too much like bombs waiting for a detonator), but after > > cooking on mains gas for 5 years, then a solid fuel/oil-fired range for > > another 6, I gritted my teeth and went for bottled gas when the > > opportunity arrived. > > I don't regret it at all. > > Our neighbours have "bottled gas" but in a tank which looks like an oil > tank with similar delivery arrangements. May be worth seeing what > possibilities there are there. > Yes, that's what we have, a big gas tank about 50 yards from the house and the 'shell tanker' fills it up regularly in winter and on demand in summer. Ours runs the central heating boiler as well as the hob. For a hob alone it would probably be overkill and a big 'portable' bottle somewhere outside would be more sensible. -- Chris Green |
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In uk.food+drink.misc Jane Gillett > wrote:
> In article > , > sarah > wrote: > > Syke > wrote: > > > > At present, I have an electric, solid-plate hob. Ideally, I would like gas, > > > mainly for controlability. We aren't on mains gas and I don't want bottled. > > > Would anyone with experience care to comment on the merits/de-merits of the > > > other alternatives, halogen and do on, particularly regarding control. > > > > Pat, I'd simply comment that I didn't want bottled gas either (I think > > the bottles look too much like bombs waiting for a detonator), but after > > cooking on mains gas for 5 years, then a solid fuel/oil-fired range for > > another 6, I gritted my teeth and went for bottled gas when the > > opportunity arrived. > > I don't regret it at all. > > Our neighbours have "bottled gas" but in a tank which looks like an oil > tank with similar delivery arrangements. May be worth seeing what > possibilities there are there. > Yes, that's what we have, a big gas tank about 50 yards from the house and the 'shell tanker' fills it up regularly in winter and on demand in summer. Ours runs the central heating boiler as well as the hob. For a hob alone it would probably be overkill and a big 'portable' bottle somewhere outside would be more sensible. -- Chris Green |
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In uk.food+drink.misc Jane Gillett > wrote:
> In article > , > sarah > wrote: > > Syke > wrote: > > > > At present, I have an electric, solid-plate hob. Ideally, I would like gas, > > > mainly for controlability. We aren't on mains gas and I don't want bottled. > > > Would anyone with experience care to comment on the merits/de-merits of the > > > other alternatives, halogen and do on, particularly regarding control. > > > > Pat, I'd simply comment that I didn't want bottled gas either (I think > > the bottles look too much like bombs waiting for a detonator), but after > > cooking on mains gas for 5 years, then a solid fuel/oil-fired range for > > another 6, I gritted my teeth and went for bottled gas when the > > opportunity arrived. > > I don't regret it at all. > > Our neighbours have "bottled gas" but in a tank which looks like an oil > tank with similar delivery arrangements. May be worth seeing what > possibilities there are there. > Yes, that's what we have, a big gas tank about 50 yards from the house and the 'shell tanker' fills it up regularly in winter and on demand in summer. Ours runs the central heating boiler as well as the hob. For a hob alone it would probably be overkill and a big 'portable' bottle somewhere outside would be more sensible. -- Chris Green |
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In uk.food+drink.misc Dave Fawthrop > wrote:
> On 26 Nov 2004 10:15:27 GMT, wrote: > > > > | For a hob alone it would probably be overkill and a big 'portable' > | bottle somewhere outside would be more sensible. > > If *you* have to move it beware. the 13kg bottle is about the biggest I can > handle, which is IMO a bit small even for a hob. I have a 13kg propane for > the caravan. Handling the bigger bottles should be left to the delivery > men who have the appropriate equipment. They will also need access for > their vehicle. > I used to move the tall (~ 4ft high) ones when we lived in the middle east, they were just about universally used for cookers there. As long as you're careful and are used to moving fairly heavy thinkgs about they're not a big problem. Admittedly the next size down are much more 'user friendly' and they were used quite widely in flats etc. where they were more likely to be indoors. -- Chris Green |
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In uk.food+drink.misc Dave Fawthrop > wrote:
> On 26 Nov 2004 10:15:27 GMT, wrote: > > > > | For a hob alone it would probably be overkill and a big 'portable' > | bottle somewhere outside would be more sensible. > > If *you* have to move it beware. the 13kg bottle is about the biggest I can > handle, which is IMO a bit small even for a hob. I have a 13kg propane for > the caravan. Handling the bigger bottles should be left to the delivery > men who have the appropriate equipment. They will also need access for > their vehicle. > I used to move the tall (~ 4ft high) ones when we lived in the middle east, they were just about universally used for cookers there. As long as you're careful and are used to moving fairly heavy thinkgs about they're not a big problem. Admittedly the next size down are much more 'user friendly' and they were used quite widely in flats etc. where they were more likely to be indoors. -- Chris Green |
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> wrote:
> In uk.food+drink.misc Jane Gillett > wrote: [-] > > Our neighbours have "bottled gas" but in a tank which looks like an oil > > tank with similar delivery arrangements. May be worth seeing what > > possibilities there are there. > > > Yes, that's what we have, a big gas tank about 50 yards from the house > and the 'shell tanker' fills it up regularly in winter and on demand > in summer. Ours runs the central heating boiler as well as the hob. > > For a hob alone it would probably be overkill and a big 'portable' > bottle somewhere outside would be more sensible. We had two of the large portable bottles -- can't remember the size, but they're c. 4' high -- and an automatic switch installed to feed our gas hob. The good news is that even cooking on the hob almost every evening, the first bottle lasted about two years! regards sarah -- Think of it as evolution in action. |
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