Paged through the latest issue of Consumer Reports and they had some
information on dishwashers. the say three cycles is about all anyone needs.
I agree with that.

They go on to say that the sanicycle is not needed as the dishes are no
longer sanitized once you touch them to put them away. While I agree with
that fact, I don't know about it being useless. What about germs and other
gunk before you wash them? If everything is killed off by the typical 130
degree water and harsh detergents, I may agree. OTOH, this time of year
people often eat outdoors. Insects land on the dishes and have a meal.
Fido may lick the plates clean. Little kids can do all sorts of unsanitary
things. I figure the sani-cycle helps to rid the dishes of some potentially
harmful stuff on them.

Is the caustic detergent enough?
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

In article > ,
Edwin Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>Paged through the latest issue of Consumer Reports and they had some
>information on dishwashers. the say three cycles is about all anyone needs.
>I agree with that.
>
>They go on to say that the sanicycle is not needed as the dishes are no
>longer sanitized once you touch them to put them away. While I agree with
>that fact, I don't know about it being useless. What about germs and other
>gunk before you wash them? If everything is killed off by the typical 130
>degree water and harsh detergents, I may agree. OTOH, this time of year
>people often eat outdoors. Insects land on the dishes and have a meal.
>Fido may lick the plates clean. Little kids can do all sorts of unsanitary
>things. I figure the sani-cycle helps to rid the dishes of some potentially
>harmful stuff on them.
>
>Is the caustic detergent enough?

IMO, getting them clean and dry is the trick.

Bacteria, and most other bugs require moisture to live. If the
plates (etc.) are clean and dry, then the bacteria on them will die.
This is why wooden cutting boards work well, they pull the moisture
away.

Bacteria also usually have a limited range of pH where they can survive.

Alton Brown was extoling the virtue of a little bleach in some water
to wash herbs before drying them. This was supposed to kill spores.

Those are my understandings. I an not a food/sanitation scientist.


Chuck Demas

--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
| \___/ | http://world.std.com/~cpd

In article > ,
Edwin Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>Paged through the latest issue of Consumer Reports and they had some
>information on dishwashers. the say three cycles is about all anyone needs.
>I agree with that.
>
>They go on to say that the sanicycle is not needed as the dishes are no
>longer sanitized once you touch them to put them away. While I agree with
>that fact, I don't know about it being useless. What about germs and other
>gunk before you wash them? If everything is killed off by the typical 130
>degree water and harsh detergents, I may agree. OTOH, this time of year
>people often eat outdoors. Insects land on the dishes and have a meal.
>Fido may lick the plates clean. Little kids can do all sorts of unsanitary
>things. I figure the sani-cycle helps to rid the dishes of some potentially
>harmful stuff on them.
>
>Is the caustic detergent enough?

IMO, getting them clean and dry is the trick.

Bacteria, and most other bugs require moisture to live. If the
plates (etc.) are clean and dry, then the bacteria on them will die.
This is why wooden cutting boards work well, they pull the moisture
away.

Bacteria also usually have a limited range of pH where they can survive.

Alton Brown was extoling the virtue of a little bleach in some water
to wash herbs before drying them. This was supposed to kill spores.

Those are my understandings. I an not a food/sanitation scientist.


Chuck Demas

--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
| \___/ | http://world.std.com/~cpd

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Paged through the latest issue of Consumer Reports and they had some
> information on dishwashers. the say three cycles is about all anyone
needs.
> I agree with that.
>
> They go on to say that the sanicycle is not needed as the dishes are no
> longer sanitized once you touch them to put them away. While I agree with
> that fact, I don't know about it being useless. What about germs and
other
> gunk before you wash them? If everything is killed off by the typical 130
> degree water and harsh detergents, I may agree. OTOH, this time of year
> people often eat outdoors. Insects land on the dishes and have a meal.
> Fido may lick the plates clean. Little kids can do all sorts of
unsanitary
> things. I figure the sani-cycle helps to rid the dishes of some
potentially
> harmful stuff on them.
>
> Is the caustic detergent enough?

I have a KitchenAid with the sani-rinse and heated wash options. Even
though I have soft water, I find that I get the very best performance from
my dishwasher when I use those options. I keep my water heater set fairly
low - about 130F and that may be a factor. I can always tell if someone
cancelled the heat settings. I think that not only does the hot water do a
better job of cleaning, but the cycle timer goes into suspension when the
water is being brought to temperature. That prolongs the cycle and probably
also contributes to the improvement. I could probably get away with two
cycles - heavy duty and normal. I could probably count on one hand the
number of time I have used the short wash, china, and rinse only cycles. On
my dishwasher the sani-rinse and heated wash are not cycles, but options
that can be used with any cycle except rinse only. The other option is
economy dry which turns off the heating element on the dry cycle. I find
that if I use sani-rinse, the dishes are so hot that they dry completely
without using the heat assisted dry option. With that in mind, I think it
is better to use sani-rinse and get cleaner dishes that dry well then to let
the dishes use normal hot water, not get sanitized, and have to use the
heated dry cycle. As for the hygiene issue, the dishes may be contaminated
when you touch them, but the bacteria may not be as pathogenic as the ones
that are one the dishes because they touched raw poultry. All bacteria are
not equal. I figure there is a reason that health departments require that
dishes machines heat to certain temperatures in commercial settings even
though the dishes will eventually be touched.

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Paged through the latest issue of Consumer Reports and they had some
> information on dishwashers. the say three cycles is about all anyone
needs.
> I agree with that.
>
> They go on to say that the sanicycle is not needed as the dishes are no
> longer sanitized once you touch them to put them away. While I agree with
> that fact, I don't know about it being useless. What about germs and
other
> gunk before you wash them? If everything is killed off by the typical 130
> degree water and harsh detergents, I may agree. OTOH, this time of year
> people often eat outdoors. Insects land on the dishes and have a meal.
> Fido may lick the plates clean. Little kids can do all sorts of
unsanitary
> things. I figure the sani-cycle helps to rid the dishes of some
potentially
> harmful stuff on them.
>
> Is the caustic detergent enough?

I have a KitchenAid with the sani-rinse and heated wash options. Even
though I have soft water, I find that I get the very best performance from
my dishwasher when I use those options. I keep my water heater set fairly
low - about 130F and that may be a factor. I can always tell if someone
cancelled the heat settings. I think that not only does the hot water do a
better job of cleaning, but the cycle timer goes into suspension when the
water is being brought to temperature. That prolongs the cycle and probably
also contributes to the improvement. I could probably get away with two
cycles - heavy duty and normal. I could probably count on one hand the
number of time I have used the short wash, china, and rinse only cycles. On
my dishwasher the sani-rinse and heated wash are not cycles, but options
that can be used with any cycle except rinse only. The other option is
economy dry which turns off the heating element on the dry cycle. I find
that if I use sani-rinse, the dishes are so hot that they dry completely
without using the heat assisted dry option. With that in mind, I think it
is better to use sani-rinse and get cleaner dishes that dry well then to let
the dishes use normal hot water, not get sanitized, and have to use the
heated dry cycle. As for the hygiene issue, the dishes may be contaminated
when you touch them, but the bacteria may not be as pathogenic as the ones
that are one the dishes because they touched raw poultry. All bacteria are
not equal. I figure there is a reason that health departments require that
dishes machines heat to certain temperatures in commercial settings even
though the dishes will eventually be touched.

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Paged through the latest issue of Consumer Reports and they had some
> information on dishwashers. the say three cycles is about all anyone
needs.
> I agree with that.
>
> They go on to say that the sanicycle is not needed as the dishes are no
> longer sanitized once you touch them to put them away. While I agree with
> that fact, I don't know about it being useless. What about germs and
other
> gunk before you wash them? If everything is killed off by the typical 130
> degree water and harsh detergents, I may agree. OTOH, this time of year
> people often eat outdoors. Insects land on the dishes and have a meal.
> Fido may lick the plates clean. Little kids can do all sorts of
unsanitary
> things. I figure the sani-cycle helps to rid the dishes of some
potentially
> harmful stuff on them.
>
> Is the caustic detergent enough?

I have a KitchenAid with the sani-rinse and heated wash options. Even
though I have soft water, I find that I get the very best performance from
my dishwasher when I use those options. I keep my water heater set fairly
low - about 130F and that may be a factor. I can always tell if someone
cancelled the heat settings. I think that not only does the hot water do a
better job of cleaning, but the cycle timer goes into suspension when the
water is being brought to temperature. That prolongs the cycle and probably
also contributes to the improvement. I could probably get away with two
cycles - heavy duty and normal. I could probably count on one hand the
number of time I have used the short wash, china, and rinse only cycles. On
my dishwasher the sani-rinse and heated wash are not cycles, but options
that can be used with any cycle except rinse only. The other option is
economy dry which turns off the heating element on the dry cycle. I find
that if I use sani-rinse, the dishes are so hot that they dry completely
without using the heat assisted dry option. With that in mind, I think it
is better to use sani-rinse and get cleaner dishes that dry well then to let
the dishes use normal hot water, not get sanitized, and have to use the
heated dry cycle. As for the hygiene issue, the dishes may be contaminated
when you touch them, but the bacteria may not be as pathogenic as the ones
that are one the dishes because they touched raw poultry. All bacteria are
not equal. I figure there is a reason that health departments require that
dishes machines heat to certain temperatures in commercial settings even
though the dishes will eventually be touched.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> I have a KitchenAid with the sani-rinse and heated wash options. Even
> though I have soft water, I find that I get the very best performance from
> my dishwasher when I use those options.

I've found that to be true also.


> On
> my dishwasher the sani-rinse and heated wash are not cycles, but options
> that can be used with any cycle except rinse only.

Yes, I think we may have the same KA model. We only use the normal cycle
with the sani-rinse.


> As for the hygiene issue, the dishes may be contaminated
> when you touch them, but the bacteria may not be as pathogenic as the ones
> that are one the dishes because they touched raw poultry. All bacteria
are
> not equal. I figure there is a reason that health departments require
that
> dishes machines heat to certain temperatures in commercial settings even
> though the dishes will eventually be touched.

That is why I use the sani-rinse. That is also why I've not subscribed to
Consumer Reports for many years. For a staff that is supposedly so
educated, their reasoning seems rather stupid. I want to be sure the dishes
used to prepare chicken or that have been outside subject to insects are as
clean as possible when they are finally washed.

I thought perhaps I was missing something, but I don't think so.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> I have a KitchenAid with the sani-rinse and heated wash options. Even
> though I have soft water, I find that I get the very best performance from
> my dishwasher when I use those options.

I've found that to be true also.


> On
> my dishwasher the sani-rinse and heated wash are not cycles, but options
> that can be used with any cycle except rinse only.

Yes, I think we may have the same KA model. We only use the normal cycle
with the sani-rinse.


> As for the hygiene issue, the dishes may be contaminated
> when you touch them, but the bacteria may not be as pathogenic as the ones
> that are one the dishes because they touched raw poultry. All bacteria
are
> not equal. I figure there is a reason that health departments require
that
> dishes machines heat to certain temperatures in commercial settings even
> though the dishes will eventually be touched.

That is why I use the sani-rinse. That is also why I've not subscribed to
Consumer Reports for many years. For a staff that is supposedly so
educated, their reasoning seems rather stupid. I want to be sure the dishes
used to prepare chicken or that have been outside subject to insects are as
clean as possible when they are finally washed.

I thought perhaps I was missing something, but I don't think so.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:50:03 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>
>"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
>> I have a KitchenAid with the sani-rinse and heated wash options. Even
>> though I have soft water, I find that I get the very best performance from
>> my dishwasher when I use those options.
>
>I've found that to be true also.
>
>
>> On
>> my dishwasher the sani-rinse and heated wash are not cycles, but options
>> that can be used with any cycle except rinse only.
>
>Yes, I think we may have the same KA model. We only use the normal cycle
>with the sani-rinse.
>
>
>> As for the hygiene issue, the dishes may be contaminated
>> when you touch them, but the bacteria may not be as pathogenic as the ones
>> that are one the dishes because they touched raw poultry. All bacteria
>are
>> not equal. I figure there is a reason that health departments require
>that
>> dishes machines heat to certain temperatures in commercial settings even
>> though the dishes will eventually be touched.
>
>That is why I use the sani-rinse. That is also why I've not subscribed to
>Consumer Reports for many years. For a staff that is supposedly so
>educated, their reasoning seems rather stupid. I want to be sure the dishes
>used to prepare chicken or that have been outside subject to insects are as
>clean as possible when they are finally washed.
>
>I thought perhaps I was missing something, but I don't think so.
>Ed

>http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
>

My parsing of the CR article and your fears runs more along the line
of, CR says that the dishes are clean and safe after a regular cycle.
This is either correct or incorrect. Nothing you have said so far
suggests that you have any insights that CR missed. The manufacturer
would like you to believe that the magic cycle makes them sterile. If
you handle them or put them in a typical kitchen cupboard, they are no
longer sterile. Thus the extra time and energy and cost are wasted in
CR's opinion. If, on the other hand, you have a particular fear of
insects or chicken, regardless of the supposition that the dishwasher
cleans dishes, then that feature would and does appeal to your fears.
It does not negate the original assertion of CR. Not terribly
different from the anxiety sell for many, many products and
politicians.

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:50:03 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>
>"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
>> I have a KitchenAid with the sani-rinse and heated wash options. Even
>> though I have soft water, I find that I get the very best performance from
>> my dishwasher when I use those options.
>
>I've found that to be true also.
>
>
>> On
>> my dishwasher the sani-rinse and heated wash are not cycles, but options
>> that can be used with any cycle except rinse only.
>
>Yes, I think we may have the same KA model. We only use the normal cycle
>with the sani-rinse.
>
>
>> As for the hygiene issue, the dishes may be contaminated
>> when you touch them, but the bacteria may not be as pathogenic as the ones
>> that are one the dishes because they touched raw poultry. All bacteria
>are
>> not equal. I figure there is a reason that health departments require
>that
>> dishes machines heat to certain temperatures in commercial settings even
>> though the dishes will eventually be touched.
>
>That is why I use the sani-rinse. That is also why I've not subscribed to
>Consumer Reports for many years. For a staff that is supposedly so
>educated, their reasoning seems rather stupid. I want to be sure the dishes
>used to prepare chicken or that have been outside subject to insects are as
>clean as possible when they are finally washed.
>
>I thought perhaps I was missing something, but I don't think so.
>Ed

>http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
>

My parsing of the CR article and your fears runs more along the line
of, CR says that the dishes are clean and safe after a regular cycle.
This is either correct or incorrect. Nothing you have said so far
suggests that you have any insights that CR missed. The manufacturer
would like you to believe that the magic cycle makes them sterile. If
you handle them or put them in a typical kitchen cupboard, they are no
longer sterile. Thus the extra time and energy and cost are wasted in
CR's opinion. If, on the other hand, you have a particular fear of
insects or chicken, regardless of the supposition that the dishwasher
cleans dishes, then that feature would and does appeal to your fears.
It does not negate the original assertion of CR. Not terribly
different from the anxiety sell for many, many products and
politicians.

"B.Server" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:50:03 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> >> I have a KitchenAid with the sani-rinse and heated wash options. Even
> >> though I have soft water, I find that I get the very best performance
from
> >> my dishwasher when I use those options.
> >
> >I've found that to be true also.
> >
> >
> >> On
> >> my dishwasher the sani-rinse and heated wash are not cycles, but
options
> >> that can be used with any cycle except rinse only.
> >
> >Yes, I think we may have the same KA model. We only use the normal cycle
> >with the sani-rinse.
> >
> >
> >> As for the hygiene issue, the dishes may be contaminated
> >> when you touch them, but the bacteria may not be as pathogenic as the
ones
> >> that are one the dishes because they touched raw poultry. All bacteria
> >are
> >> not equal. I figure there is a reason that health departments require
> >that
> >> dishes machines heat to certain temperatures in commercial settings
even
> >> though the dishes will eventually be touched.
> >
> >That is why I use the sani-rinse. That is also why I've not subscribed
to
> >Consumer Reports for many years. For a staff that is supposedly so
> >educated, their reasoning seems rather stupid. I want to be sure the
dishes
> >used to prepare chicken or that have been outside subject to insects are
as
> >clean as possible when they are finally washed.
> >
> >I thought perhaps I was missing something, but I don't think so.
> >Ed
>
> >http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
> >
>
> My parsing of the CR article and your fears runs more along the line
> of, CR says that the dishes are clean and safe after a regular cycle.
> This is either correct or incorrect. Nothing you have said so far
> suggests that you have any insights that CR missed. The manufacturer
> would like you to believe that the magic cycle makes them sterile. If
> you handle them or put them in a typical kitchen cupboard, they are no
> longer sterile. Thus the extra time and energy and cost are wasted in
> CR's opinion. If, on the other hand, you have a particular fear of
> insects or chicken, regardless of the supposition that the dishwasher
> cleans dishes, then that feature would and does appeal to your fears.
> It does not negate the original assertion of CR. Not terribly
> different from the anxiety sell for many, many products and
> politicians.

No one used the term "sterile." Anyone reasonable person would realize the
difference between a dishwasher and an autoclave. The terms "clean,"
"disinfected," "sanititized," and "sterile" all have specific meanings.
That's why the button says "sani" and not "sterile." If you go back and
read what I wrote, you would see that I used the heated cycles because the
dishwasher yields better results, i.e., the dishes are cleaner and dryer. I
also pointed out that not all bacteria are equal. Some bacteria are
beneficial, some are pathogenic, and some are neither beneficial or
pathogenic.

"B.Server" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:50:03 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> >> I have a KitchenAid with the sani-rinse and heated wash options. Even
> >> though I have soft water, I find that I get the very best performance
from
> >> my dishwasher when I use those options.
> >
> >I've found that to be true also.
> >
> >
> >> On
> >> my dishwasher the sani-rinse and heated wash are not cycles, but
options
> >> that can be used with any cycle except rinse only.
> >
> >Yes, I think we may have the same KA model. We only use the normal cycle
> >with the sani-rinse.
> >
> >
> >> As for the hygiene issue, the dishes may be contaminated
> >> when you touch them, but the bacteria may not be as pathogenic as the
ones
> >> that are one the dishes because they touched raw poultry. All bacteria
> >are
> >> not equal. I figure there is a reason that health departments require
> >that
> >> dishes machines heat to certain temperatures in commercial settings
even
> >> though the dishes will eventually be touched.
> >
> >That is why I use the sani-rinse. That is also why I've not subscribed
to
> >Consumer Reports for many years. For a staff that is supposedly so
> >educated, their reasoning seems rather stupid. I want to be sure the
dishes
> >used to prepare chicken or that have been outside subject to insects are
as
> >clean as possible when they are finally washed.
> >
> >I thought perhaps I was missing something, but I don't think so.
> >Ed
>
> >http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
> >
>
> My parsing of the CR article and your fears runs more along the line
> of, CR says that the dishes are clean and safe after a regular cycle.
> This is either correct or incorrect. Nothing you have said so far
> suggests that you have any insights that CR missed. The manufacturer
> would like you to believe that the magic cycle makes them sterile. If
> you handle them or put them in a typical kitchen cupboard, they are no
> longer sterile. Thus the extra time and energy and cost are wasted in
> CR's opinion. If, on the other hand, you have a particular fear of
> insects or chicken, regardless of the supposition that the dishwasher
> cleans dishes, then that feature would and does appeal to your fears.
> It does not negate the original assertion of CR. Not terribly
> different from the anxiety sell for many, many products and
> politicians.

No one used the term "sterile." Anyone reasonable person would realize the
difference between a dishwasher and an autoclave. The terms "clean,"
"disinfected," "sanititized," and "sterile" all have specific meanings.
That's why the button says "sani" and not "sterile." If you go back and
read what I wrote, you would see that I used the heated cycles because the
dishwasher yields better results, i.e., the dishes are cleaner and dryer. I
also pointed out that not all bacteria are equal. Some bacteria are
beneficial, some are pathogenic, and some are neither beneficial or
pathogenic.

"B.Server" > wrote in message
> My parsing of the CR article and your fears runs more along the line
> of, CR says that the dishes are clean and safe after a regular cycle.
> This is either correct or incorrect. Nothing you have said so far
> suggests that you have any insights that CR missed.

True, but CR did not say that dishes through a normal sycle are sanitary.
They just said that the sani-cycle is a waste. Only reason given that your
hands render them not sterile. I have no quibble with that, but they do not
give any particulars about possible contamination beforehand.


> The manufacturer
> would like you to believe that the magic cycle makes them sterile. If
> you handle them or put them in a typical kitchen cupboard, they are no
> longer sterile.

Not sterile in that it has been processed like you would in an autoclave for
X minutes, etc. We're not talking operating room sterile.


> Thus the extra time and energy and cost are wasted in
> CR's opinion. If, on the other hand, you have a particular fear of
> insects or chicken, regardless of the supposition that the dishwasher
> cleans dishes, then that feature would and does appeal to your fears.
> It does not negate the original assertion of CR. Not terribly
> different from the anxiety sell for many, many products and
> politicians.

You don't understand my original post. True, CR thinks it is a waste of
energy, but they don't give any really good reasoning behind it except for
post washing handling. They fail to mention potential pre-wash
contamination. Nor do you. Do you have facts to support the non-need for
the extra step? That is what I want to know. Will normal washing take care
of salmonella and eColi? Will the sani-cycle?

I'm looking for real fact, real reasons.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

"B.Server" > wrote in message
> My parsing of the CR article and your fears runs more along the line
> of, CR says that the dishes are clean and safe after a regular cycle.
> This is either correct or incorrect. Nothing you have said so far
> suggests that you have any insights that CR missed.

True, but CR did not say that dishes through a normal sycle are sanitary.
They just said that the sani-cycle is a waste. Only reason given that your
hands render them not sterile. I have no quibble with that, but they do not
give any particulars about possible contamination beforehand.


> The manufacturer
> would like you to believe that the magic cycle makes them sterile. If
> you handle them or put them in a typical kitchen cupboard, they are no
> longer sterile.

Not sterile in that it has been processed like you would in an autoclave for
X minutes, etc. We're not talking operating room sterile.


> Thus the extra time and energy and cost are wasted in
> CR's opinion. If, on the other hand, you have a particular fear of
> insects or chicken, regardless of the supposition that the dishwasher
> cleans dishes, then that feature would and does appeal to your fears.
> It does not negate the original assertion of CR. Not terribly
> different from the anxiety sell for many, many products and
> politicians.

You don't understand my original post. True, CR thinks it is a waste of
energy, but they don't give any really good reasoning behind it except for
post washing handling. They fail to mention potential pre-wash
contamination. Nor do you. Do you have facts to support the non-need for
the extra step? That is what I want to know. Will normal washing take care
of salmonella and eColi? Will the sani-cycle?

I'm looking for real fact, real reasons.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome