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Old 18-07-2009, 10:48 PM posted to rec.food.equipment
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Default Recommendations for high-end cooktops and moderate+ ovens

I am in the process of finishing up design of a major (as in gut to the
walls, and take down one of those) kitchen redo. Right now I am trying
to settle on appliances. Money is definitely an object, so I was
targeting higher-end mass market (Kitchenaid/Bosch level) for most
things, a bit higher for the rangetop.

I'm basically settled on fridge and dishwasher, and thought I was on the
others. (Ignoring my general inability to make a decision and
tremendous buyer's remorse even before I buy anything :-)) However...

I had decided on a pair of KA 30" single ovens (model KEBS107S), but
I've read a lot of reports of problems with KA ovens (and maybe this
specific unit) dying due to thermal cutouts burning out when
self-cleaning. And actually, I own a KA range that has had overheating
related failure issues. KA apparently denies that there are any design
problems, so it's hard to tell if they have fixed this. Based on my
concerns, the appliance place I've been dealing with suggested as
possible alternatives a Bosch (HBL545) as a pretty comparable unit at
about the same money, or perhaps the Dacor Millennia Renaissance
(MORS130) as a (significantly?) higher quality unit at ~$400 or so more
each. Has anyone here had experience with any of these - good or bad -
or suggestions of other ovens?

I've been looking at the DCS 36" 6 burner rangetop (CP366) sealed burner
unit, since it seemed to be the least expensive of the high-end units
(about $1K less than the Wolf (RT366 or SRT366), and (not as but still
substantially) less than the others I've looked at). I recently
discovered that the BTU output on the big burners on the DCS are 15%-20%
lower when running on LP than on natural gas - not sure how significant
that is. Also, I had the appliance expert at my kitchen contractor (who
won't be getting a cut on the appliances, so has no dog in the fight)
indicate that the DCS is her least favorite of the alternatives (well,
she's apparently even less of a fan of Viking, but that wasn't in
consideration). Has anyone experience - again, good or bad - with the
DCS and/or suggestions of alternatives. Also, anyone with Wolf (or
other higher priced spread) - do you think your unit is worth the extra
money, and why? Aesthetics counts for something - this is going to be a
very expensive redo (by my standards, anyway) and I want it to look good
- but cooking performance and cost effectiveness counts for more.
Finally, all but Wolf seem to use only sealed burners these days (Wolf
offers both open and sealed) - do people with experience with both have
any strong preferences to offer?

Lastly, the appliance place suggested a Best (Broan) K260A 42" hood with
a 1200CFM fan. I'm not sure how I feel about the looks of that, but my
major concern is that it is loud - at max speed, Best indicates that it
generates about 10 sones. Even if I run it flat out only occasionally,
that implies it may be pretty noisy even on medium. It was suggested
that Vent-a-Hood (not sure which model) might be a quieter alternative
in the same general quality and price range (~$1500 including blower).
Any comments (especially on noise and overall quality) on either of
these and/or suggestions of other (fairly reasonably priced) brands and
units?

Thanks for any info!

ted

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Old 19-07-2009, 03:05 AM posted to rec.food.equipment
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Default Recommendations for high-end cooktops and moderate+ ovens

On Jul 18, 4:48*pm, Ted Goldblatt wrote:
I am in the process of finishing up design of a major (as in gut to the
walls, and take down one of those) kitchen redo. *Right now I am trying
to settle on appliances. *Money is definitely an object, so I was
targeting higher-end mass market (Kitchenaid/Bosch level) for most
things, a bit higher for the rangetop.

I'm basically settled on fridge and dishwasher, and thought I was on the
others. *(Ignoring my general inability to make a decision and
tremendous buyer's remorse even before I buy anything :-)) However...

I had decided on a pair of KA 30" single ovens (model KEBS107S), but
I've read a lot of reports of problems with KA ovens (and maybe this
specific unit) dying due to thermal cutouts burning out when
self-cleaning. *And actually, I own a KA range that has had overheating
related failure issues. *KA apparently denies that there are any design
problems, so it's hard to tell if they have fixed this. *Based on my
concerns, the appliance place I've been dealing with suggested as
possible alternatives a Bosch (HBL545) as a pretty comparable unit at
about the same money, or perhaps the Dacor Millennia Renaissance
(MORS130) as a (significantly?) higher quality unit at ~$400 or so more
each. * Has anyone here had experience with any of these - good or bad -
or suggestions of other ovens?

I've been looking at the DCS 36" 6 burner rangetop (CP366) sealed burner
unit, since it seemed to be the least expensive of the high-end units
(about $1K less than the Wolf (RT366 or SRT366), and (not as but still
substantially) less than the others I've looked at). *I recently
discovered that the BTU output on the big burners on the DCS are 15%-20%
lower when running on LP than on natural gas - not sure how significant
that is. *Also, I had the appliance expert at my kitchen contractor (who
won't be getting a cut on the appliances, so has no dog in the fight)
indicate that the DCS is her least favorite of the alternatives (well,
she's apparently even less of a fan of Viking, but that wasn't in
consideration). *Has anyone experience - again, good or bad - with the
DCS and/or suggestions of alternatives. *Also, anyone with Wolf (or
other higher priced spread) - do you think your unit is worth the extra
money, and why? *Aesthetics counts for something - this is going to be a
very expensive redo (by my standards, anyway) and I want it to look good
- but cooking performance and cost effectiveness counts for more.
Finally, all but Wolf seem to use only sealed burners these days (Wolf
offers both open and sealed) - do people with experience with both have
any strong preferences to offer?

Lastly, the appliance place suggested a Best (Broan) K260A 42" hood with
a 1200CFM fan. *I'm not sure how I feel about the looks of that, but my
major concern is that it is loud - at max speed, Best indicates that it
generates about 10 sones. *Even if I run it flat out only occasionally,
that implies it may be pretty noisy even on medium. *It was suggested
that Vent-a-Hood (not sure which model) might be a quieter alternative
in the same general quality and price range (~$1500 including blower).
Any comments (especially on noise and overall quality) on either of
these and/or suggestions of other (fairly reasonably priced) brands and
units?

Thanks for any info!

ted


If you can get a good price on a Jade Range cooktop... that would be
the way to go.

Also... if you can rework it so that you're using a range (ovens under
cooktop) you save $$$. Add the cooktop + two built in ovens + cabinet
work and prove it to yourself. There are less installation issues,
space efficiencies, and the exhaust system will also service the
ovens.

I know you said ovens are secondary but... Jade ovens are over-the-
top: infra-red broilers, serious convection capabilities.





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Old 19-07-2009, 04:22 AM posted to rec.food.equipment
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Default Recommendations for high-end cooktops and moderate+ ovens


"Ted Goldblatt" wrote in message

I've been looking at the DCS 36" 6 burner rangetop (CP366) sealed burner
unit, since it seemed to be the least expensive of the high-end units
(about $1K less than the Wolf (RT366 or SRT366), and (not as but still
substantially) less than the others I've looked at). I recently
discovered that the BTU output on the big burners on the DCS are 15%-20%
lower when running on LP than on natural gas - not sure how significant
that is.


We installed a new Bertazzoni in May of 2008. We love it.

http://www.bertazzoni-italia.com/

Good value when comparing prices to the Viking and Wolf. Ours is on propane
and the burner output is the same as with NG. When we bought ours, the
dealer had to change the orifices, but now they come from the factory set up
and tuned for the gas you will be using.

Everything cooked in the oven comes out superior to anything made in our old
range. It has a convection oven and the meats are nicely done and are
juicier than from the old one. Burner control is very good.

If I moved to a new house tomorrow, I'd replace it with the same thing. I
just wish we had the space for the 48" range.


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Old 20-07-2009, 06:22 AM posted to rec.food.equipment
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Posts: 9
Default Recommendations for high-end cooktops and moderate+ ovens

Will wrote:
On Jul 18, 4:48 pm, Ted Goldblatt wrote:
I am in the process of finishing up design of a major (as in gut to the
walls, and take down one of those) kitchen redo. Right now I am trying
to settle on appliances. Money is definitely an object, so I was
targeting higher-end mass market (Kitchenaid/Bosch level) for most
things, a bit higher for the rangetop.

[Snip specific questions about KA/Bosch/Dacor ovens, etc.]

If you can get a good price on a Jade Range cooktop... that would be
the way to go.


Was not familiar with Jade - looked them up. As best I can tell, they
would be priced in the Wolf ballpark (or so), which makes it unlikely.
Nearest dealer is about 300 miles away, making it very unlikely. And
they are apparently a spin-off of Whirlpool that is running in early
start-up mode (limited dealer network, no real support network in place,
etc.) which would make them a "no" even if the other 2 problems could be
resolved...

Also... if you can rework it so that you're using a range (ovens under
cooktop) you save $$$. Add the cooktop + two built in ovens + cabinet
work and prove it to yourself. There are less installation issues,
space efficiencies, and the exhaust system will also service the
ovens.


Well, the design (cooktop plus 2 single ovens) is already decided. I
currently have 2 (consumer grade) 30" electric ranges and would like to
keep 2 (full sized) ovens and at least 6 burners (preferably with the
burners high output gas). However, my budget doesn't run to a high-end
pro-style range, especially one with those characteristics, nor do I
really want to devote 5 feet of counter width to the cooktop if I can
get away with only 3 feet. Therefore (given I want these
characteristics) I actually come out ahead on $$$ over 1 large or 2 30"
pro style ranges, the cabinets aren't really an issue since they are all
new anyway, the installation work isn't mine to do, and I actually gain
space efficiencies this way (assuming I really want the 2 ovens). Also,
while the exhaust issues are real, the planned layout will (hopefully
:-)) provide decent results given the hood vs oven placement.

I know you said ovens are secondary but... Jade ovens are over-the-
top: infra-red broilers, serious convection capabilities.


I didn't really say ovens are are secondary so much as indicate that I
think I can get the results I want from units at the high end of mass
market (or a little above), while I am less convinced that would be true
for the cooktop. The ovens I named appear to have serious (true)
convection capabilities (perhaps not at the level of a esoteric
pro-style oven, but still), and I'm not certain how often I would
require broiling beyond their capabilities...

ted
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Old 20-07-2009, 06:24 AM posted to rec.food.equipment
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Default Recommendations for high-end cooktops and moderate+ ovens

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"Ted Goldblatt" wrote in message
I've been looking at the DCS 36" 6 burner rangetop (CP366) sealed burner
unit, since it seemed to be the least expensive of the high-end units
(about $1K less than the Wolf (RT366 or SRT366), and (not as but still
substantially) less than the others I've looked at). I recently
discovered that the BTU output on the big burners on the DCS are 15%-20%
lower when running on LP than on natural gas - not sure how significant
that is.


We installed a new Bertazzoni in May of 2008. We love it.

http://www.bertazzoni-italia.com/

Good value when comparing prices to the Viking and Wolf. Ours is on propane
and the burner output is the same as with NG. When we bought ours, the
dealer had to change the orifices, but now they come from the factory set up
and tuned for the gas you will be using.


Perhaps good value compared to Viking and Wolf, but they aren't in my
price range anyway...

The appliance dealer I am working with apparently carries Bertazzoni,
but (perhaps knowing the sort of price limits I am looking at) didn't
suggest it...

Everything cooked in the oven comes out superior to anything made in our old
range. It has a convection oven and the meats are nicely done and are
juicier than from the old one. Burner control is very good.


The ovens I am looking at all have true (separately heated) convection.
Whether this is up to the level of that in the "fancy" brands is a
question, of course...

If I moved to a new house tomorrow, I'd replace it with the same thing. I
just wish we had the space for the 48" range.


I am replacing 2 30" ranges. Going to 48" means I wouldn't get 2 full
size (well, 30" anyway) ovens. Further, while I guess I have the space,
I don't have the $$$ to go that way... The approach I'm going is (I
think) going to give me the best compromise for my needs.

ted


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Old 20-07-2009, 07:48 PM posted to rec.food.equipment
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Default Recommendations for high-end cooktops and moderate+ ovens


"Ted Goldblatt" wrote in message
...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"Ted Goldblatt" wrote in message
I've been looking at the DCS 36" 6 burner rangetop (CP366) sealed burner
unit, since it seemed to be the least expensive of the high-end units
(about $1K less than the Wolf (RT366 or SRT366), and (not as but still
substantially) less than the others I've looked at). I recently
discovered that the BTU output on the big burners on the DCS are 15%-20%
lower when running on LP than on natural gas - not sure how significant
that is.


We installed a new Bertazzoni in May of 2008. We love it.

http://www.bertazzoni-italia.com/

Good value when comparing prices to the Viking and Wolf. Ours is on
propane and the burner output is the same as with NG. When we bought
ours, the dealer had to change the orifices, but now they come from the
factory set up and tuned for the gas you will be using.


Perhaps good value compared to Viking and Wolf, but they aren't in my
price range anyway...

The appliance dealer I am working with apparently carries Bertazzoni, but
(perhaps knowing the sort of price limits I am looking at) didn't suggest
it...

Everything cooked in the oven comes out superior to anything made in our
old range. It has a convection oven and the meats are nicely done and
are juicier than from the old one. Burner control is very good.


The ovens I am looking at all have true (separately heated) convection.
Whether this is up to the level of that in the "fancy" brands is a
question, of course...

If I moved to a new house tomorrow, I'd replace it with the same thing.
I just wish we had the space for the 48" range.


I am replacing 2 30" ranges. Going to 48" means I wouldn't get 2 full
size (well, 30" anyway) ovens. Further, while I guess I have the space, I
don't have the $$$ to go that way... The approach I'm going is (I think)
going to give me the best compromise for my needs.

ted



I believe there is controversy about baking bread using convection. I never
use it (well, hardly ever) for baking bread.

Yesterday I made cookies, and I suppose I could've used convection and used
2 pans at the same time; but I chose to bake one pan at a time.
That's just me.

Dee Dee


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Old 20-07-2009, 09:45 PM posted to rec.food.equipment
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Default Recommendations for high-end cooktops and moderate+ ovens

On Jul 20, 1:48*pm, "Dee Dovey" wrote:
"Ted Goldblatt" wrote in message

...



Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"Ted Goldblatt" wrote in message
I've been looking at the DCS 36" 6 burner rangetop (CP366) sealed burner
unit, since it seemed to be the least expensive of the high-end units
(about $1K less than the Wolf (RT366 or SRT366), and (not as but still
substantially) less than the others I've looked at). *I recently
discovered that the BTU output on the big burners on the DCS are 15%-20%
lower when running on LP than on natural gas - not sure how significant
that is.


We installed a new Bertazzoni in May of 2008. *We love it.


http://www.bertazzoni-italia.com/


Good value when comparing prices to the Viking and Wolf. *Ours is on
propane and the burner output is the same as with NG. *When we bought
ours, the dealer had to change the orifices, but now they come from the
factory set up and tuned for the gas you will be using.


Perhaps good value compared to Viking and Wolf, but they aren't in my
price range anyway...


The appliance dealer I am working with apparently carries Bertazzoni, but
(perhaps knowing the sort of price limits I am looking at) didn't suggest
it...


Everything cooked in the oven comes out superior to anything made in our
old range. *It has a convection oven and the meats are nicely done and
are juicier than from the old one. *Burner control is very good.


The ovens I am looking at all have true (separately heated) convection.
Whether this is up to the level of that in the "fancy" brands is a
question, of course...


If I moved to a new house tomorrow, I'd replace it with the same thing..
I just wish we had the space for the 48" range.


I am replacing 2 30" ranges. *Going to 48" means I wouldn't get 2 full
size (well, 30" anyway) ovens. *Further, while I guess I have the space, I
don't have the $$$ to go that way... *The approach I'm going is (I think)
going to give me the best compromise for my needs.


ted


I believe there is controversy about baking bread using convection. *I never
use it (well, hardly ever) for baking bread.

Yesterday I made cookies, and I suppose I could've used convection and used
2 pans at the same time; but I chose to bake one pan at a time.
That's just me.

Dee Dee


I agree... bread is best baked with radiant heat. The convection
option for the Jade is switch. So the use is optional. It's nice for
browning stuff off the end and it's especially nice for stirring the
air periodically if you have the racks filled.

The real deal is the ceramic infra-red broiler. Awesome.

LIke the OP, I originally thought having a great cook top was more
important than having a serious oven. Fortunately I had a merchant who
took the time to explain the real deal. It is a lot easier from an
engineering perspective to throw BTU's at food from a burner. Getting
great radiant heat from a well baffled, well insulated oven... is
another story. A serious oven is something few people experience these
days. But it is a game changer.

If I was doing now... I'd focus on very good ovens and get an
induction range.






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