"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
>> I can't really get behind this dishwasher as home heating device
>> unless you live in a one room studio.
>
> The size of the house has nothing to do with it. The fact remains: if
> you need to add heat to the home to make it comfortable for living, then
> the heat from the dishwasher's dry cycle will ultimately be sent into
> the inside of the home itself. That is heat that the furnace does NOT
> have to supply.
>
> In a studio apartment, it may be a significant percentage of the total
> heat needed to raise the inside temperature of the apartment. In a
> large house, it may be a very small percentage of the total heat needed.
> Regardless, it is heat and it will have an effect--in other words, it
> won't go to waste.
>
> However, when you're using the A/C in summer, the added heat load of the
> dry cycle is heat that the A/C must work HARDER at to remove from the
> inside of the house--again, regardless of whether it's a studio
> apartment or a large house.

All absolutely true. That's why as much as possible I refrain from using my
oven during warm months but instead plan to prepare food on my outdoor
grill, and use paper plates when practical, and in fact it's warm climates
that encourage/promote the entire outdoor cooking/eating industry. I save
the heavy indoor cooking for the winter months, when it helps heat the
house. It's really pretty dopey to refrain from occasionally/appropriately
using the heated dry feature of a dishwasher by claiming that wastes energy,
but then regularly light off a big indoor oven, typically on the hottest
summer days, and then just to bake a silly tube of biscuits or a couple
spuds. I realize that folks have all kinds of strange routines they follow
religiously without realizing why, like eating toast for breakfast during
summer but having yogurt during winter, but then don't try to explaining
ones odd behavior by claiming it saves energy/money when it does not. I
have nothing against frugality but I detest dopeyness.

On Fri, 15 May 2009 14:47:16 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> wrote:

>
>"Dave Garland" > wrote in message
...
>> Lou wrote:
>>
>>> The point is that air drying the
>>> dishes isn't necessarily cost free either. Neither is using a towel to
>>> dry
>>> them - the water is absorbed by the towel, which becomes damp. You hang
>>> the
>>> towel up when you're done, and that water evaporates.
>>
>> True.
>>
>> And again, it takes a
>>> certain amount of heat to evaporate a given quantity of water, and if
>>> it's
>>> during the heating season, that heat is coming from the furnace. If you
>>> live in a climate where you don't need to run the furnace, then that's
>>> not a
>>> consideration. I don't know how much water has to be evaporated to dry a
>>> load of dishes, but it doesn't look like it would be much, and the amount
>>> of
>>> electricity used is correspondingly small - I doubt if anyone would
>>> notice a
>>> change in their electricity bill one way or the other.
>>
>> But that's assuming that all the energy used goes into evaporating
>> water. In the case of air drying that's true. In the case of heated
>> drying, it's hard to believe. The heat leaks into the environment
>> (not a total loss, of course, as the furnace runs less, but not a wash
>> either, since resistance heating is usually much more costly than the
>> furnace's heat). I don't have any figures for the percentage of total
>> heat used that evaporates water, but would guess it's a small
>> percentage. The rest goes into making the dishwasher warm, leaving
>> the plates warm.
>>
>> (It's all theoretical to me, I've never had a dishwasher.)
>>
>> Dave
>
>Ahahahahaha. . . .
>
>Folks, it's a dishwasher... a marvel of modern *convenience*, something no
>one actually *needs*, but a major part of the convenience is the dry
>feature... if you open the unit right after it shuts off the dishes will be
>so hot that they will fully air dry in minutes... but if opened hours after
>it's fully cooled down (like in the morning) condensation will have formed
>inside the machine. I typically start my dishwasher last thing before
>retiring for the night, then I set the heated dry feature because I hate
>opening the dishwasher and finding many of the dishes covered with
>droplets.... the heated dry doesn't need to be used all the time, that's why
>there is a button that gives you a choice to exercise your brain. Never
>using the dry feature is like folks who install central AC but never use it
>unless it's like 100 degrees (and then they set it at 90), like buying a
>Porsche but being ascared to drive over 45 mph, like installing a fancy
>schmancy hydro jet tub but never using it other than something to dust and
>show off because it uses too much hot water, like buying nice living room
>furniture covered with silk brocade but covering it with clear plastic slip
>covers in hopes it won't ever wear, like roping off the living room so no
>one walks on your horrid dago robin's egg blue plush carpeting. The heated
>dry feature on a dishwasher uses so little energy compared to the total
>energy it consumes that it's negligible... I bet yoose types are so cheap
>yoose haven't bought a new toothbrush in like twenty years... yoose are all
>just a buncha mental masturbators over silly minutia.
>
>In fact I just got off the phone with the Maytag help desk, they varified
>that choosing the heated dry feature only slightly extends the heated dry
>that comes on anyway as part of the standard clean cycle... that the energy
>cost savings by not choosing the heated dry feature is miniscule and
>insignificant compared with the total energy consumed in using a dishwasher
>(naturally they couldn't give me an actual dollar amount as electric rates
>differ). Think about it, how many times a week does someone use their
>dishwasher... tops I use mine twice, that's 100 times a year... by not using
>the heated dry feature I'd save like 10¢, that's a whole $10/yr... and I'd
>lose the convenience of not having to wait with the door open for the dishes
>to fully dry or having to wipe... I don't know about the slobs but I don't
>like to stack my dishes in the cabinet with water droplets... then moisture
>gets trapped between stacked dishes, very unsanitary... wiping by hand is
>also unsanitary, negates the main purpose of an Auto dishwasher, minimally
>handled dishes. And dishwashers do indeed contain a blower, that's what
>circulates the heated air at the end in order to dry the dishes, choosing
>the heated dry feature merely lets the blower circulate the heated air a few
>minutes longer. If I listen carefully I can hear the blower running
>(because nothing else is running at the end) and I can see the vapor blowing
>out the front vent, it's a very small blower and a very small heater, but it
>works in that very small space. There is also a water heater, that uses
>much more energy than the dry heater. There is a definite savings in energy
>and the dishwasher will operate better if the water at the kitchen sink is
>run till it runs hot before turning on the dishwasher... my Maytag manual
>explains that and even says to test the water at the sink by runing it into
>cup and checking with a thermometer, optimally it should read 140ºF, or the
>dishwasher's water heater will have to make up the difference and that
>heater will cost a lot more to run than the drying heater, it's also cheaper
>to let your domestic hot water heater do the work... initially running with
>water not hot enough will negatively affect the performance of the
>dishwashing compounds... everyone's plumbing is different but typically a
>gallon of cold water comes out the hot water tap before it turns hot...
>filling the dishwasher with cold water wastes more energy than the heated
>dry feature uses. I just read my owner's manual again, a lot of good stuff
>in there I missed/forgotten since I read it 5 years ago, the machine has
>features I didn't know about.
>
>Not using your modern dishwasher's heated dry feature saves less energy than
>not using your modern frost free refrigerator freezer to make ice, and makes
>as much sense... just don't fill the ice cube trays, you'll save enough to
>take an around the world cruise... maybe in about forty life times. I
>wonder how many of yoose imbeciles believe you have to change the air in
>your car tires every 6,000 miles.
>
You should write a book. "My Dishwasher and Me: A Personal Journey."

--Vic

"Vic Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 15 May 2009 14:47:16 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dave Garland" > wrote in message
...
>>> Lou wrote:
>>>
>>>> The point is that air drying the
>>>> dishes isn't necessarily cost free either. Neither is using a towel to
>>>> dry
>>>> them - the water is absorbed by the towel, which becomes damp. You
>>>> hang
>>>> the
>>>> towel up when you're done, and that water evaporates.
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>> And again, it takes a
>>>> certain amount of heat to evaporate a given quantity of water, and if
>>>> it's
>>>> during the heating season, that heat is coming from the furnace. If
>>>> you
>>>> live in a climate where you don't need to run the furnace, then that's
>>>> not a
>>>> consideration. I don't know how much water has to be evaporated to dry
>>>> a
>>>> load of dishes, but it doesn't look like it would be much, and the
>>>> amount
>>>> of
>>>> electricity used is correspondingly small - I doubt if anyone would
>>>> notice a
>>>> change in their electricity bill one way or the other.
>>>
>>> But that's assuming that all the energy used goes into evaporating
>>> water. In the case of air drying that's true. In the case of heated
>>> drying, it's hard to believe. The heat leaks into the environment
>>> (not a total loss, of course, as the furnace runs less, but not a wash
>>> either, since resistance heating is usually much more costly than the
>>> furnace's heat). I don't have any figures for the percentage of total
>>> heat used that evaporates water, but would guess it's a small
>>> percentage. The rest goes into making the dishwasher warm, leaving
>>> the plates warm.
>>>
>>> (It's all theoretical to me, I've never had a dishwasher.)
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>>Ahahahahaha. . . .
>>
>>Folks, it's a dishwasher... a marvel of modern *convenience*, something no
>>one actually *needs*, but a major part of the convenience is the dry
>>feature... if you open the unit right after it shuts off the dishes will
>>be
>>so hot that they will fully air dry in minutes... but if opened hours
>>after
>>it's fully cooled down (like in the morning) condensation will have formed
>>inside the machine. I typically start my dishwasher last thing before
>>retiring for the night, then I set the heated dry feature because I hate
>>opening the dishwasher and finding many of the dishes covered with
>>droplets.... the heated dry doesn't need to be used all the time, that's
>>why
>>there is a button that gives you a choice to exercise your brain. Never
>>using the dry feature is like folks who install central AC but never use
>>it
>>unless it's like 100 degrees (and then they set it at 90), like buying a
>>Porsche but being ascared to drive over 45 mph, like installing a fancy
>>schmancy hydro jet tub but never using it other than something to dust and
>>show off because it uses too much hot water, like buying nice living room
>>furniture covered with silk brocade but covering it with clear plastic
>>slip
>>covers in hopes it won't ever wear, like roping off the living room so no
>>one walks on your horrid dago robin's egg blue plush carpeting. The
>>heated
>>dry feature on a dishwasher uses so little energy compared to the total
>>energy it consumes that it's negligible... I bet yoose types are so cheap
>>yoose haven't bought a new toothbrush in like twenty years... yoose are
>>all
>>just a buncha mental masturbators over silly minutia.
>>
>>In fact I just got off the phone with the Maytag help desk, they varified
>>that choosing the heated dry feature only slightly extends the heated dry
>>that comes on anyway as part of the standard clean cycle... that the
>>energy
>>cost savings by not choosing the heated dry feature is miniscule and
>>insignificant compared with the total energy consumed in using a
>>dishwasher
>>(naturally they couldn't give me an actual dollar amount as electric rates
>>differ). Think about it, how many times a week does someone use their
>>dishwasher... tops I use mine twice, that's 100 times a year... by not
>>using
>>the heated dry feature I'd save like 10¢, that's a whole $10/yr... and I'd
>>lose the convenience of not having to wait with the door open for the
>>dishes
>>to fully dry or having to wipe... I don't know about the slobs but I don't
>>like to stack my dishes in the cabinet with water droplets... then
>>moisture
>>gets trapped between stacked dishes, very unsanitary... wiping by hand is
>>also unsanitary, negates the main purpose of an Auto dishwasher, minimally
>>handled dishes. And dishwashers do indeed contain a blower, that's what
>>circulates the heated air at the end in order to dry the dishes, choosing
>>the heated dry feature merely lets the blower circulate the heated air a
>>few
>>minutes longer. If I listen carefully I can hear the blower running
>>(because nothing else is running at the end) and I can see the vapor
>>blowing
>>out the front vent, it's a very small blower and a very small heater, but
>>it
>>works in that very small space. There is also a water heater, that uses
>>much more energy than the dry heater. There is a definite savings in
>>energy
>>and the dishwasher will operate better if the water at the kitchen sink is
>>run till it runs hot before turning on the dishwasher... my Maytag manual
>>explains that and even says to test the water at the sink by runing it
>>into
>>cup and checking with a thermometer, optimally it should read 140ºF, or
>>the
>>dishwasher's water heater will have to make up the difference and that
>>heater will cost a lot more to run than the drying heater, it's also
>>cheaper
>>to let your domestic hot water heater do the work... initially running
>>with
>>water not hot enough will negatively affect the performance of the
>>dishwashing compounds... everyone's plumbing is different but typically a
>>gallon of cold water comes out the hot water tap before it turns hot...
>>filling the dishwasher with cold water wastes more energy than the heated
>>dry feature uses. I just read my owner's manual again, a lot of good
>>stuff
>>in there I missed/forgotten since I read it 5 years ago, the machine has
>>features I didn't know about.
>>
>>Not using your modern dishwasher's heated dry feature saves less energy
>>than
>>not using your modern frost free refrigerator freezer to make ice, and
>>makes
>>as much sense... just don't fill the ice cube trays, you'll save enough to
>>take an around the world cruise... maybe in about forty life times. I
>>wonder how many of yoose imbeciles believe you have to change the air in
>>your car tires every 6,000 miles.
>>
> You should write a book. "My Dishwasher and Me: A Personal Journey."
>
>

Um, I just did.

On Fri, 15 May 2009 17:46:00 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> wrote:

>

>
>Um, I just did.
>
Touche!

--Vic

"Reggie" > wrote in message
>
> MEASURABLE degree. how many BTU does a warming cycle put out? sure, all
> of it ends up in the house, but how many minutes of furnace time does it
> equate to?
>

If we choose to ignore it because it is a small number, then why not ignore
the fact that it cost money to operate the heat cycle? Cost is cost and
yes, it can be measured. Tell me how many Btu the heating element is and I
can give a rather exact number of furnace minutes.

On Thu, 14 May 2009 08:37:23 -0400, "Nancy Young"
> wrote:

>Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article >,
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>>
>>>> The water doesn't care what generated the heat. During the heating
>>>> season, that heat is going to come either from the dishwasher
>>>> heating element or from the furnace, but either way you're going to
>>>> pay for the heat. It may be marginally cheaper to use the furnace,
>>>> if you have an up to date high efficiency furnace, but not enough
>>>> to notice.
>>>
>>> ? The dishes dry themselves whether I have the furnace running
>>> or not.
>>
>> The furnace heats the house. The heat in the house is used to
>> evaporate the water.
>
>The fact that the water the dishes were washed in is super hot
>makes it just evaporate. This is why they also dry themselves in
>the summer when the heat isn't on ... or the A/C.
>
>Geez, when I take my dishes out of the cabinets on that same
>wall in the winter, they are freezing cold because I didn't think
>to have them replace the insulation when I replaced the kitchen.
>If the heat isn't forcing itself into my kitchen cabinets, I sincerely
>doubt it's pushing past the hot air leaking from the dishwasher
>to dry them.
>
>Regardless, I don't see the worth to using the electric heating
>coil in my dishwasher to gain warmth in the house, but to each
>their own.
>
Don't you just love wasting your breath with students who probably
haven't seen a dishwasher since they left home?


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote:
>
>> "Reggie" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> MEASURABLE degree. how many BTU does a warming cycle put out?
>>> sure, all of it ends up in the house, but how many minutes of
>>> furnace time does it equate to?
>>>
>>
>> If we choose to ignore it because it is a small number, then why not
>> ignore the fact that it cost money to operate the heat cycle? Cost
>> is cost and yes, it can be measured. Tell me how many Btu the
>> heating element is and I can give a rather exact number of furnace
>> minutes.
>
> That's why I asked Nancy if she was an artists.

I missed that.
>
> Artists can't even begin to grasp the concept.

No, the concept I grasp is that my furnace only responds to
the temp by the thermostat. My house is a split with cathedral
ceilings, so it's particularly not likely any heat will be at the level
to effect any change to my thermostat (not in the kitchen). Another
concept I grasp is that the cost of electricity is much higher where I
live compared to gas, so whatever miniscule affect using heated dry
might have would not be for the better.

Feel free to heat dry your dishes though, it's no skin off my teeth,
and think it's saving you money on heat. Maybe in your house, it
is.

nancy

brooklyn1 wrote:

> Folks, it's a dishwasher... a marvel of modern *convenience*, something no
> one actually *needs*, but a major part of the convenience is the dry
> feature...

Huh. A modern convenience, you say. Maybe if I generated more dirty
dishes it would make more sense to me.

I just leave my dishes in the drainer, and the next day they're all
dry. That's actually pretty convenient.

Dave

brooklyn1 wrote:

> It's really pretty dopey to refrain from occasionally/appropriately
> using the heated dry feature of a dishwasher by claiming that wastes energy,
> but then regularly light off a big indoor oven, typically on the hottest
> summer days, and then just to bake a silly tube of biscuits or a couple
> spuds.

True. That's what toaster ovens are for.

Dave

On Fri, 15 May 2009 21:32:35 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> wrote:

>In article >,
> sf > wrote:
>
>> Don't you just love wasting your breath with students who probably
>> haven't seen a dishwasher since they left home?
>
>Not sure what you're talking about there....the old farts here who just
>happen to have some schooling know better.

<laugh>

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
>>> Artists can't even begin to grasp the concept.
>>
>> No, the concept I grasp is that my furnace only responds to
>> the temp by the thermostat.
>
> What you're not grasping is that the temperature increase from the
> dishwasher heater is very real and very measurable, and it doesn't
> have to have a blower directly on the thermostat for the heat to have
> an effect inside the house.

We're talking about the heat from the dishwasher not being wasted
because it saves the furnace from having to make up some .2
degree.

My furnace does not measure the heat by the dishwasher, it measures
the heat by the thermostat. Particularly annoying when the sun comes
through the skylight and hits the thermostat and it gets really cold in
here because the furnace won't run.

> The heating source doesn't have to be blowing onto the thermostat for
> the heat to have an effect.

No, it has to reach the thermostat.

Of course it's warmer if you're sitting in front of the dishwasher when
it's venting the heat. That's not what we're talking about. We're
talking about the furnace noticing it. Maybe in your house you can
just have one heat vent in one room because hey, the heat just
homogenizes through the house. Me, I have a heat vent in every
room because otherwise the heat would be uneven.

We're not going to agree, since you think if the heat doesn't reach
the thermostat the furnace will still know you did the dishes. So
let's just drop it.

nancy

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Dave Garland" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Lou wrote:
>>
>>> The point is that air drying the
>>> dishes isn't necessarily cost free either. Neither is using a towel to
>>> dry
>>> them - the water is absorbed by the towel, which becomes damp. You hang
>>> the
>>> towel up when you're done, and that water evaporates.
>> True.
>>
>> And again, it takes a
>>> certain amount of heat to evaporate a given quantity of water, and if
>>> it's
>>> during the heating season, that heat is coming from the furnace. If you
>>> live in a climate where you don't need to run the furnace, then that's
>>> not a
>>> consideration. I don't know how much water has to be evaporated to dry a
>>> load of dishes, but it doesn't look like it would be much, and the amount
>>> of
>>> electricity used is correspondingly small - I doubt if anyone would
>>> notice a
>>> change in their electricity bill one way or the other.
>> But that's assuming that all the energy used goes into evaporating
>> water. In the case of air drying that's true. In the case of heated
>> drying, it's hard to believe. The heat leaks into the environment
>> (not a total loss, of course, as the furnace runs less, but not a wash
>> either, since resistance heating is usually much more costly than the
>> furnace's heat). I don't have any figures for the percentage of total
>> heat used that evaporates water, but would guess it's a small
>> percentage. The rest goes into making the dishwasher warm, leaving
>> the plates warm.
>>
>> (It's all theoretical to me, I've never had a dishwasher.)
>>
>> Dave
>
> Ahahahahaha. . . .
>
> Folks, it's a dishwasher... a marvel of modern *convenience*, something no
> one actually *needs*, but a major part of the convenience is the dry
> feature... if you open the unit right after it shuts off the dishes will be
> so hot that they will fully air dry in minutes... but if opened hours after
> it's fully cooled down (like in the morning) condensation will have formed
> inside the machine. I typically start my dishwasher last thing before
> retiring for the night, then I set the heated dry feature because I hate
> opening the dishwasher and finding many of the dishes covered with
> droplets.... the heated dry doesn't need to be used all the time, that's why
> there is a button that gives you a choice to exercise your brain. Never
> using the dry feature is like folks who install central AC but never use it
> unless it's like 100 degrees (and then they set it at 90), like buying a
> Porsche but being ascared to drive over 45 mph, like installing a fancy
> schmancy hydro jet tub but never using it other than something to dust and
> show off because it uses too much hot water, like buying nice living room
> furniture covered with silk brocade but covering it with clear plastic slip
> covers in hopes it won't ever wear, like roping off the living room so no
> one walks on your horrid dago robin's egg blue plush carpeting. The heated
> dry feature on a dishwasher uses so little energy compared to the total
> energy it consumes that it's negligible... I bet yoose types are so cheap
> yoose haven't bought a new toothbrush in like twenty years... yoose are all
> just a buncha mental masturbators over silly minutia.
>
> In fact I just got off the phone with the Maytag help desk, they varified
> that choosing the heated dry feature only slightly extends the heated dry
> that comes on anyway as part of the standard clean cycle... that the energy
> cost savings by not choosing the heated dry feature is miniscule and
> insignificant compared with the total energy consumed in using a dishwasher
> (naturally they couldn't give me an actual dollar amount as electric rates
> differ).


Sounds more like a story. Why would they build in a "do nothing button"?

We have a contemporary Maytag dishwasher and I though I would check. I
was up really early this morning. I don't have a wiring diagram for it
but I could observe current draw with a clamp on ammeter. I put the
meter on the dishwater circuit. I knew I had the correct circuit because
I could see the current change in sync with the sound of the motor
cycling. When the washing portion was complete (last rinse water is
pumped out) there was no longer a measurable draw because I had disabled
drying. When I enabled it I could see a current draw appropriate for a
heating element. I disabled it and the current draw stopped. I then set
the meter to record peak draw and walked away just to catch if the
element turned on and it never did. The dishes dried just fine as usual
with the door closed because of the residual heat.


Think about it, how many times a week does someone use their
> dishwasher... tops I use mine twice, that's 100 times a year... by not using
> the heated dry feature I'd save like 10¢, that's a whole $10/yr... and I'd
> lose the convenience of not having to wait with the door open for the dishes
> to fully dry or having to wipe... I don't know about the slobs but I don't
> like to stack my dishes in the cabinet with water droplets... then moisture
> gets trapped between stacked dishes, very unsanitary... wiping by hand is
> also unsanitary, negates the main purpose of an Auto dishwasher, minimally
> handled dishes. And dishwashers do indeed contain a blower, that's what
> circulates the heated air at the end in order to dry the dishes, choosing
> the heated dry feature merely lets the blower circulate the heated air a few
> minutes longer. If I listen carefully I can hear the blower running
> (because nothing else is running at the end) and I can see the vapor blowing
> out the front vent, it's a very small blower and a very small heater, but it
> works in that very small space. There is also a water heater, that uses
> much more energy than the dry heater. There is a definite savings in energy
> and the dishwasher will operate better if the water at the kitchen sink is
> run till it runs hot before turning on the dishwasher... my Maytag manual
> explains that and even says to test the water at the sink by runing it into
> cup and checking with a thermometer, optimally it should read 140ºF, or the
> dishwasher's water heater will have to make up the difference and that
> heater will cost a lot more to run than the drying heater, it's also cheaper
> to let your domestic hot water heater do the work... initially running with
> water not hot enough will negatively affect the performance of the
> dishwashing compounds... everyone's plumbing is different but typically a
> gallon of cold water comes out the hot water tap before it turns hot...
> filling the dishwasher with cold water wastes more energy than the heated
> dry feature uses. I just read my owner's manual again, a lot of good stuff
> in there I missed/forgotten since I read it 5 years ago, the machine has
> features I didn't know about.
>
> Not using your modern dishwasher's heated dry feature saves less energy than
> not using your modern frost free refrigerator freezer to make ice, and makes
> as much sense... just don't fill the ice cube trays, you'll save enough to
> take an around the world cruise... maybe in about forty life times. I
> wonder how many of yoose imbeciles believe you have to change the air in
> your car tires every 6,000 miles.
>
>
>

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
>
> My furnace does not measure the heat by the dishwasher, it measures
> the heat by the thermostat. Particularly annoying when the sun comes
> through the skylight and hits the thermostat and it gets really cold in
> here because the furnace won't run.
>
>> The heating source doesn't have to be blowing onto the thermostat for
>> the heat to have an effect.
>
> No, it has to reach the thermostat.
> Of course it's warmer if you're sitting in front of the dishwasher when
> it's venting the heat. That's not what we're talking about. We're
> talking about the furnace noticing it. Maybe in your house you can
> just have one heat vent in one room because hey, the heat just homogenizes
> through the house. Me, I have a heat vent in every
> room because otherwise the heat would be uneven.

A technicality here. Even though you have vents in every room, the air does
drift around in slow currents and the currents change throughout the day as
different rooms get sunlight, heat from the shower, the stove, the furnace,
the dishwasher, the dog, you, your spouse, etc. If the particular heat
generated by the DW does not move to the thermostat, it prevents other
warmer air from moving to that area from another, maybe even where the
thermostat is.

Heat constantly seeks cooker areas. This is one of the laws of physics,
solidly founded and proven. You don't have to believe it, but you can't
change it. Take a candle and move it up and down in the stairwell and you
may see a more dramatic movement of air.

Check the temperature of you bedroom overnight compared to the rest of the
house. You will see the temperature will be a bit warmer than other rooms
because the average body gives off about 450 Btu of heat every hour.
Calories = energy. Your body burns the calories and give off heat. Crowded
stadiums in winter don't need heat, but often need cooling when you add
20,000 bodies giving off heat.

In any case, heat from an appliance is not wasted during heating season.
Body heat info
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/cbd/cbd102_e.html

On Thu, 14 May 2009 09:15:14 -0700, The Real Bev
> wrote:

>The good thing about dishwashers is that the dishes feel so clean after
>processing. Squeaky clean. I'm not willing to wash them that well by hand,
>and it's a real shame that there's no room in my kitchen for an electric
>dishwasher. Barely enough room for a human dishwasher :-)

Have you ever watched House Hunters International on HGTV? In Europe,
there is a dish drainer that's off the counter. It's above the sink
(hung between the cabinets), so wet dishes drip directly into the
sink. I bet that set up would be perfect for you!

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:08:02 -0500, Dave Garland
> wrote:

>brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>> It's really pretty dopey to refrain from occasionally/appropriately
>> using the heated dry feature of a dishwasher by claiming that wastes energy,
>> but then regularly light off a big indoor oven, typically on the hottest
>> summer days, and then just to bake a silly tube of biscuits or a couple
>> spuds.
>
>True. That's what toaster ovens are for.
>
Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
with the door closed will.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

sf wrote:
> On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:08:02 -0500, Dave Garland
> > wrote:
>
>> brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>>> It's really pretty dopey to refrain from occasionally/appropriately
>>> using the heated dry feature of a dishwasher by claiming that
>>> wastes energy, but then regularly light off a big indoor oven,
>>> typically on the hottest summer days, and then just to bake a silly
>>> tube of biscuits or a couple spuds.
>>
>> True. That's what toaster ovens are for.
>>
> Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
> with the door closed will.

Nope, because what you call a regular oven puts all its heat into the room too.

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article >,
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>>
>>>> Artists can't even begin to grasp the concept.
>>>
>>> No, the concept I grasp is that my furnace only responds to
>>> the temp by the thermostat.
>>
>> What you're not grasping is that the temperature increase from the
>> dishwasher heater is very real and very measurable, and it doesn't
>> have to have a blower directly on the thermostat for the heat to have
>> an effect inside the house.
>
> We're talking about the heat from the dishwasher not being wasted
> because it saves the furnace from having to make up some .2
> degree.
>
> My furnace does not measure the heat by the dishwasher, it measures
> the heat by the thermostat. Particularly annoying when the sun comes
> through the skylight and hits the thermostat and it gets really cold in
> here because the furnace won't run.
>
>> The heating source doesn't have to be blowing onto the thermostat for
>> the heat to have an effect.
>
> No, it has to reach the thermostat.
> Of course it's warmer if you're sitting in front of the dishwasher when
> it's venting the heat. That's not what we're talking about. We're
> talking about the furnace noticing it. Maybe in your house you can
> just have one heat vent in one room because hey, the heat just homogenizes
> through the house. Me, I have a heat vent in every
> room because otherwise the heat would be uneven.
>
> We're not going to agree, since you think if the heat doesn't reach
> the thermostat the furnace will still know you did the dishes. So
> let's just drop it.
>
> nancy
>
Unless you close off doors any heat generated in any part of the house
eventually affects the thermostat regardless where it is located inside the
house... energy can neither be created or destroyed; a law of physics... I
really didn't want to complicate things by introducing the concept of
'time'... but eventually the heat generated in the kitchen affects the
thermostat in another part of the house... I suggest reading Zeno's
Paradoxes... if not enlightening you may find it interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes

"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
> Paradoxes... if not enlightening you may find it interesting:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes
>
>
Now there are some things to think about when you can't get to sleep.

Rod Speed wrote:
> sf wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:08:02 -0500, Dave Garland
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's really pretty dopey to refrain from occasionally/appropriately
>>>> using the heated dry feature of a dishwasher by claiming that
>>>> wastes energy, but then regularly light off a big indoor oven,
>>>> typically on the hottest summer days, and then just to bake a silly
>>>> tube of biscuits or a couple spuds.
>>> True. That's what toaster ovens are for.
>>>
>> Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
>> with the door closed will.
>
> Nope, because what you call a regular oven puts all its heat into the room too.

Only if the BTU input to each oven is the same. A well insulated, self
cleaning oven uses less electricity to do the same amount of cooking
than a poorly insulated oven, all other things being equal. This is the
same principle as a well insulated house using less fuel than a poorly
insulated house.

Matthew

--
"You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him
confess to the Sharon Tate murders." -- Jesse Ventura

"Dave Garland" > wrote in message
. ..
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>> Folks, it's a dishwasher... a marvel of modern *convenience*, something
>> no
>> one actually *needs*, but a major part of the convenience is the dry
>> feature...
>
> Huh. A modern convenience, you say. Maybe if I generated more dirty
> dishes it would make more sense to me.
>
> I just leave my dishes in the drainer, and the next day they're all
> dry. That's actually pretty convenient.
>
> Dave

I spent most of my life living like you, then in middle age I suddenly
smartened up about being overly frugal... everyone dies the same, but it's
all about how we live... and everyone lives differently. It was very
stressful being careful not to use an extra dish, glass, fork, or spoon, and
even more stressful being driven to wash every utensil immediately or it
would pile up where it looked like slob city. It's amzing how we adopt
frugality from our parents... my parents had to die before I treated myself
to a dish washer. I bet you ration how many sheets of TP you permit
yourself, and you use both sides. LOL You wanna talk frugal, my father
insisted that only he knew how to properly close a water spigot, if over
tightened one millionth of a foot pound the washer would wear out a day
sooner. Maybe Victor can help, I can't write Russian, my father's favorite
word was "Jholahver" or some such transliteration.

On Sat, 16 May 2009 16:27:20 -0400, "Matthew L. Martin"
> wrote:

>Rod Speed wrote:
>> sf wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:08:02 -0500, Dave Garland
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's really pretty dopey to refrain from occasionally/appropriately
>>>>> using the heated dry feature of a dishwasher by claiming that
>>>>> wastes energy, but then regularly light off a big indoor oven,
>>>>> typically on the hottest summer days, and then just to bake a silly
>>>>> tube of biscuits or a couple spuds.
>>>> True. That's what toaster ovens are for.
>>>>
>>> Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
>>> with the door closed will.
>>
>> Nope, because what you call a regular oven puts all its heat into the room too.
>
>Only if the BTU input to each oven is the same. A well insulated, self
>cleaning oven uses less electricity to do the same amount of cooking
>than a poorly insulated oven, all other things being equal. This is the
>same principle as a well insulated house using less fuel than a poorly
>insulated house.
>
I'm saying a toaster oven is poorly insulated and manages to heat the
room as well as what's inside. I see no useful purpose in using one.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

sf wrote:
> On Sat, 16 May 2009 16:27:20 -0400, "Matthew L. Martin"
> > wrote:
>
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> sf wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:08:02 -0500, Dave Garland
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's really pretty dopey to refrain from occasionally/appropriately
>>>>>> using the heated dry feature of a dishwasher by claiming that
>>>>>> wastes energy, but then regularly light off a big indoor oven,
>>>>>> typically on the hottest summer days, and then just to bake a silly
>>>>>> tube of biscuits or a couple spuds.
>>>>> True. That's what toaster ovens are for.
>>>>>
>>>> Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
>>>> with the door closed will.
>>> Nope, because what you call a regular oven puts all its heat into the room too.
>> Only if the BTU input to each oven is the same. A well insulated, self
>> cleaning oven uses less electricity to do the same amount of cooking
>> than a poorly insulated oven, all other things being equal. This is the
>> same principle as a well insulated house using less fuel than a poorly
>> insulated house.
>>
> I'm saying a toaster oven is poorly insulated and manages to heat the
> room as well as what's inside. I see no useful purpose in using one.
>
>

I believe that you and I are in violent agreement.

Matthew

--
"You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him
confess to the Sharon Tate murders." -- Jesse Ventura

sf wrote:
> On Sat, 16 May 2009 16:27:20 -0400, "Matthew L. Martin"
> > wrote:
>
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> sf wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:08:02 -0500, Dave Garland
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> brooklyn1 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's really pretty dopey to refrain from
>>>>>> occasionally/appropriately using the heated dry feature of a
>>>>>> dishwasher by claiming that wastes energy, but then regularly
>>>>>> light off a big indoor oven, typically on the hottest summer
>>>>>> days, and then just to bake a silly tube of biscuits or a couple
>>>>>> spuds.
>>>>> True. That's what toaster ovens are for.
>>>>>
>>>> Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
>>>> with the door closed will.
>>>
>>> Nope, because what you call a regular oven puts all its heat into
>>> the room too.
>>
>> Only if the BTU input to each oven is the same. A well insulated,
>> self cleaning oven uses less electricity to do the same amount of
>> cooking than a poorly insulated oven, all other things being equal.
>> This is the same principle as a well insulated house using less fuel
>> than a poorly insulated house.

> I'm saying a toaster oven is poorly insulated and
> manages to heat the room as well as what's inside.

All ovens do that, regardless of how well insulated they are.

The only ovens that dont do that are those that are vented directly to outside.

> I see no useful purpose in using one.

More fool you. They heat a much smaller volume and so use less power to heat
something small like a pie etc and so heat the room less than a full sized oven.

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Dave Garland" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>>> Folks, it's a dishwasher... a marvel of modern *convenience*,
>>> something no
>>> one actually *needs*, but a major part of the convenience is the dry
>>> feature...
>>
>> Huh. A modern convenience, you say. Maybe if I generated more dirty
>> dishes it would make more sense to me.
>>
>> I just leave my dishes in the drainer, and the next day they're all
>> dry. That's actually pretty convenient.

> I spent most of my life living like you, then in middle age I suddenly
> smartened up about being overly frugal... everyone dies the same,

No they dont. Some choose to pull the plug when the future doesnt appeal.

> but it's all about how we live...

And being frugal can give you more choices on how you live.

> and everyone lives differently.

Hardly anyone lives signficantly differently.

> It was very stressful being careful not to use an extra dish, glass, fork, or spoon,

Its actually a lot less stressful to keep reusing the same plate etc while
ever its clean enough to keep using it. I dont bother to have a clean plate
every day for the morning toast, only get a clean one when one gets dirty
because some of the butter or marmalade has got onto the plate.

I dont bother to use a clean glass every time I drink some water
from the tap, just wash the glass that I use for that when the
dishwasher is doing a cycle, and thats about once in 10 days.

I do however have a clean glass every day for the evening beer,
because beer does make the glass more dirty than water does.

> and even more stressful being driven to wash every utensil
> immediately or it would pile up where it looked like slob city.

Only a fool cares what anything looks like.

> It's amzing how we adopt frugality from our parents... my parents had to die before I treated myself to a dish washer.

More fool you.

> I bet you ration how many sheets of TP you permit yourself, and you use both sides. LOL

> You wanna talk frugal, my father insisted that only he knew how to properly close a water spigot, if over tightened
> one millionth of a foot pound the washer would wear out a day sooner.

Your problem is clearly hereditary.

> Maybe Victor can help, I can't write Russian, my father's favorite word was "Jholahver" or some such transliteration.

Matthew L. Martin wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> sf wrote
>>> Dave Garland > wrote
>>>> brooklyn1 wrote

>>>>> It's really pretty dopey to refrain from
>>>>> occasionally/appropriately using the heated dry feature of a
>>>>> dishwasher by claiming that wastes energy, but then regularly
>>>>> light off a big indoor oven, typically on the hottest summer days, and then just to bake a silly tube of biscuits
>>>>> or a couple spuds.

>>>> True. That's what toaster ovens are for.

>>> Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
>>> with the door closed will.

>> Nope, because what you call a regular oven puts all its heat into the room too.

> Only if the BTU input to each oven is the same.

And they arent, most obviously when a toaster oven is used to heat something small like a pie.

> A well insulated, self cleaning oven uses less electricity to do the same amount of cooking than a poorly insulated
> oven, all other things being equal.

Yes, but all other things arent equal. Its much bigger for
starters and there is a lot more of it to be heated up too.

> This is the same principle as a well insulated house using less fuel than a poorly insulated house.

Nope, The principles are quite different with ovens.

The only way to avoid an oven heating the house in summer is to have a
well insulated oven thats directly vented to the outside and hardly any are.

Its perfectly possible to insulate a small toaster oven as well as a full sized
regular oven and then you will end up with less heat in the house in summer
if only because the wall and door area is smaller with the toaster oven.

"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
> I spent most of my life living like you, then in middle age I suddenly
> smartened up about being overly frugal... everyone dies the same, but it's
> all about how we live... and everyone lives differently. It was very
> stressful being careful not to use an extra dish, glass, fork, or spoon,
> and even more stressful being driven to wash every utensil immediately or
> it would pile up where it looked like slob city. It's amzing how we adopt
> frugality from our parents... my parents had to die before I treated
> myself to a dish washer. I bet you ration how many sheets of TP you
> permit yourself, and you use both sides. LOL You wanna talk frugal, my
> father insisted that only he knew how to properly close a water spigot, if
> over tightened one millionth of a foot pound the washer would wear out a
> day sooner. Maybe Victor can help, I can't write Russian, my father's
> favorite word was "Jholahver" or some such transliteration.

Those are common traits among those that lived during the Depression and the
World Wars when every tiny thing counted. We have a woman at work that was
in Austria and Switzerland during the war. Some days they ate flour soup as
their only meal. She wastes nothing and buys nothing she can make instead.
Some of her clothes are decades old, but till look in great shape because
they are good quality and she takes care of them. Not many of us here have
gone to bed hungry as was common back then.

In article >,
sf > wrote:

> >Only if the BTU input to each oven is the same. A well insulated, self
> >cleaning oven uses less electricity to do the same amount of cooking
> >than a poorly insulated oven, all other things being equal. This is the
> >same principle as a well insulated house using less fuel than a poorly
> >insulated house.
> >
> I'm saying a toaster oven is poorly insulated and manages to heat the
> room as well as what's inside. I see no useful purpose in using one.

It depends on the toasty oven. I have a toastmaster model that is so
well insulated, I can set a loaf of bread in its plastic bag on top
while I bake a casserole of Mac n Cheese, and the plastic doesn't melt
at all. All the heat is properly contained within this particular model.

jt

On Sat, 16 May 2009 21:47:05 GMT, jt august >
wrote:

>It depends on the toasty oven. I have a toastmaster model that is so
>well insulated, I can set a loaf of bread in its plastic bag on top
>while I bake a casserole of Mac n Cheese, and the plastic doesn't melt
>at all. All the heat is properly contained within this particular model.

Nice to hear they've improved! It's about time.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
>
> "brooklyn1" > wrote in message
>> I spent most of my life living like you, then in middle age I suddenly
>> smartened up about being overly frugal... everyone dies the same, but
>> it's all about how we live... and everyone lives differently. It was
>> very stressful being careful not to use an extra dish, glass, fork, or
>> spoon, and even more stressful being driven to wash every utensil
>> immediately or it would pile up where it looked like slob city. It's
>> amzing how we adopt frugality from our parents... my parents had to die
>> before I treated myself to a dish washer. I bet you ration how many
>> sheets of TP you permit yourself, and you use both sides. LOL You wanna
>> talk frugal, my father insisted that only he knew how to properly close a
>> water spigot, if over tightened one millionth of a foot pound the washer
>> would wear out a day sooner. Maybe Victor can help, I can't write
>> Russian, my father's favorite word was "Jholahver" or some such
>> transliteration.
>
> Those are common traits among those that lived during the Depression and
> the World Wars when every tiny thing counted.

Exactly. It took you most of your life before treating yourself to a stove
you really wanted, and according to your posts you still agonized over the
decision. Perhaps you still have buyers remorse, not because the stove
isn't worth it, but because you are still not comfortable with whether you
are worth it. It's not easy to give up old taboos... many times I wonder
whether my parents would approve of my decisions. Anyone who tells me they
don't consider their parent's approval, even about how much toothpaste they
put on their toothbrush, is either a liar or a criminal. Every normal
person lives their entire life considering parental approval regarding all
the minutia of their life.

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "brooklyn1" > wrote in message
>>> I spent most of my life living like you, then in middle age I
>>> suddenly smartened up about being overly frugal... everyone dies
>>> the same, but it's all about how we live... and everyone lives
>>> differently. It was very stressful being careful not to use an
>>> extra dish, glass, fork, or spoon, and even more stressful being
>>> driven to wash every utensil immediately or it would pile up where
>>> it looked like slob city. It's amzing how we adopt frugality from
>>> our parents... my parents had to die before I treated myself to a
>>> dish washer. I bet you ration how many sheets of TP you permit
>>> yourself, and you use both sides. LOL You wanna talk frugal, my
>>> father insisted that only he knew how to properly close a water
>>> spigot, if over tightened one millionth of a foot pound the washer
>>> would wear out a day sooner. Maybe Victor can help, I can't write
>>> Russian, my father's favorite word was "Jholahver" or some such
>>> transliteration.
>>
>> Those are common traits among those that lived during the Depression
>> and the World Wars when every tiny thing counted.
>
> Exactly. It took you most of your life before treating yourself to a
> stove you really wanted, and according to your posts you still
> agonized over the decision. Perhaps you still have buyers remorse,
> not because the stove isn't worth it, but because you are still not
> comfortable with whether you are worth it. It's not easy to give up
> old taboos... many times I wonder whether my parents would approve of
> my decisions. Anyone who tells me they don't consider their parent's
> approval, even about how much toothpaste they put on their
> toothbrush, is either a liar or a criminal.

Wota terminal ****wit. Plenty have enough of a clue to realise that
some people are locked in the past and so their approval is irrelevant.

> Every normal person lives their entire life considering parental approval regarding all the minutia of their life.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a clue about anything at all, ever.

"Rod Speed" > wrote in message
...
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>> "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "brooklyn1" > wrote in message
>>>> I spent most of my life living like you, then in middle age I
>>>> suddenly smartened up about being overly frugal... everyone dies
>>>> the same, but it's all about how we live... and everyone lives
>>>> differently. It was very stressful being careful not to use an
>>>> extra dish, glass, fork, or spoon, and even more stressful being
>>>> driven to wash every utensil immediately or it would pile up where
>>>> it looked like slob city. It's amzing how we adopt frugality from
>>>> our parents... my parents had to die before I treated myself to a
>>>> dish washer. I bet you ration how many sheets of TP you permit
>>>> yourself, and you use both sides. LOL You wanna talk frugal, my
>>>> father insisted that only he knew how to properly close a water
>>>> spigot, if over tightened one millionth of a foot pound the washer
>>>> would wear out a day sooner. Maybe Victor can help, I can't write
>>>> Russian, my father's favorite word was "Jholahver" or some such
>>>> transliteration.
>>>
>>> Those are common traits among those that lived during the Depression
>>> and the World Wars when every tiny thing counted.
>>
>> Exactly. It took you most of your life before treating yourself to a
>> stove you really wanted, and according to your posts you still
>> agonized over the decision. Perhaps you still have buyers remorse,
>> not because the stove isn't worth it, but because you are still not
>> comfortable with whether you are worth it. It's not easy to give up
>> old taboos... many times I wonder whether my parents would approve of
>> my decisions. Anyone who tells me they don't consider their parent's
>> approval, even about how much toothpaste they put on their
>> toothbrush, is either a liar or a criminal.
>
> Wota terminal ****wit. Plenty have enough of a clue to realise that
> some people are locked in the past and so their approval is irrelevant.
>
>> Every normal person lives their entire life considering parental approval
>> regarding all the minutia of their life.
>
> Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had
> a clue about anything at all, ever.
>
You're like that river in Egypt, Denial... shithead.

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Rod Speed" > wrote in message
> ...
>> brooklyn1 wrote:
>>> "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> "brooklyn1" > wrote in message
>>>>> I spent most of my life living like you, then in middle age I
>>>>> suddenly smartened up about being overly frugal... everyone dies
>>>>> the same, but it's all about how we live... and everyone lives
>>>>> differently. It was very stressful being careful not to use an
>>>>> extra dish, glass, fork, or spoon, and even more stressful being
>>>>> driven to wash every utensil immediately or it would pile up where
>>>>> it looked like slob city. It's amzing how we adopt frugality from
>>>>> our parents... my parents had to die before I treated myself to a
>>>>> dish washer. I bet you ration how many sheets of TP you permit
>>>>> yourself, and you use both sides. LOL You wanna talk frugal, my
>>>>> father insisted that only he knew how to properly close a water
>>>>> spigot, if over tightened one millionth of a foot pound the washer
>>>>> would wear out a day sooner. Maybe Victor can help, I can't write
>>>>> Russian, my father's favorite word was "Jholahver" or some such
>>>>> transliteration.
>>>>
>>>> Those are common traits among those that lived during the
>>>> Depression and the World Wars when every tiny thing counted.
>>>
>>> Exactly. It took you most of your life before treating yourself to
>>> a stove you really wanted, and according to your posts you still
>>> agonized over the decision. Perhaps you still have buyers remorse,
>>> not because the stove isn't worth it, but because you are still not
>>> comfortable with whether you are worth it. It's not easy to give up
>>> old taboos... many times I wonder whether my parents would approve
>>> of my decisions. Anyone who tells me they don't consider their
>>> parent's approval, even about how much toothpaste they put on their
>>> toothbrush, is either a liar or a criminal.
>>
>> Wota terminal ****wit. Plenty have enough of a clue to realise that
>> some people are locked in the past and so their approval is
>> irrelevant.
>>> Every normal person lives their entire life considering parental
>>> approval regarding all the minutia of their life.
>>
>> Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never
>> ever had a clue about anything at all, ever.
>>
> You're like that river in Egypt, Denial... shithead.

Wota stunningly rational line of argument you have there, child.

"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Rod Speed" > wrote in message
| ...
| > brooklyn1 wrote:
| >> "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
| >> ...
| >>>
| >>> "brooklyn1" > wrote in message
| >>>> I spent most of my life living like you, then in middle age I
| >>>> suddenly smartened up about being overly frugal... everyone dies
| >>>> the same, but it's all about how we live... and everyone lives
| >>>> differently. It was very stressful being careful not to use an
| >>>> extra dish, glass, fork, or spoon, and even more stressful being
| >>>> driven to wash every utensil immediately or it would pile up where
| >>>> it looked like slob city. It's amzing how we adopt frugality from
| >>>> our parents... my parents had to die before I treated myself to a
| >>>> dish washer. I bet you ration how many sheets of TP you permit
| >>>> yourself, and you use both sides. LOL You wanna talk frugal, my
| >>>> father insisted that only he knew how to properly close a water
| >>>> spigot, if over tightened one millionth of a foot pound the washer
| >>>> would wear out a day sooner. Maybe Victor can help, I can't write
| >>>> Russian, my father's favorite word was "Jholahver" or some such
| >>>> transliteration.
| >>>
| >>> Those are common traits among those that lived during the Depression
| >>> and the World Wars when every tiny thing counted.
| >>
| >> Exactly. It took you most of your life before treating yourself to a
| >> stove you really wanted, and according to your posts you still
| >> agonized over the decision. Perhaps you still have buyers remorse,
| >> not because the stove isn't worth it, but because you are still not
| >> comfortable with whether you are worth it. It's not easy to give up
| >> old taboos... many times I wonder whether my parents would approve of
| >> my decisions. Anyone who tells me they don't consider their parent's
| >> approval, even about how much toothpaste they put on their
| >> toothbrush, is either a liar or a criminal.
| >
| > Wota terminal ****wit. Plenty have enough of a clue to realise that
| > some people are locked in the past and so their approval is irrelevant.
| >
| >> Every normal person lives their entire life considering parental approval
| >> regarding all the minutia of their life.
| >
| > Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had
| > a clue about anything at all, ever.
| >
| You're like that river in Egypt, Denial... shithead.

Who let the dog out (woof, woof, woof, woof)

pavane

sf wrote:
> On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:08:02 -0500, Dave Garland
> > wrote:
>> True. That's what toaster ovens are for.
>>
> Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
> with the door closed will.

Not in my experience. Toaster ovens aren't as well insulated, but
they're much smaller. Not counting the heat (energy) that is lost
heating the oven itself up, heat is lost through the surface area. My
regular oven has about 8.5 sq ft surface area (height+depth)*width,
and takes maybe 15 minutes to get up to temperature. My small toaster
oven has about 1 sq ft surface area and is up to temperature in under
a minute.

Ultimately, all that heat energy (less whatever tiny amount was
absorbed in changing the food chemistry) ends up in your room (and
costing you money).

Dave

In article >,
sf > wrote:

> On Sat, 16 May 2009 21:47:05 GMT, jt august >
> wrote:
>
> >It depends on the toasty oven. I have a toastmaster model that is so
> >well insulated, I can set a loaf of bread in its plastic bag on top
> >while I bake a casserole of Mac n Cheese, and the plastic doesn't melt
> >at all. All the heat is properly contained within this particular model.
>
> Nice to hear they've improved! It's about time.

Not all, sadly. You need to shop around. I got lucky in finding a
great one at a great price.

There are still plenty that are not insulated.

jt

On Sun, 17 May 2009 03:46:39 GMT, jt august >
wrote:

>In article >,
> sf > wrote:
>
>> Nice to hear they've improved! It's about time.
>
>Not all, sadly. You need to shop around. I got lucky in finding a
>great one at a great price.
>
>There are still plenty that are not insulated.
>
Noted! Thanks for the update.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Sat, 16 May 2009 21:21:35 -0500, Dave Garland
> wrote:

>sf wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:08:02 -0500, Dave Garland
>> > wrote:
>>> True. That's what toaster ovens are for.
>>>
>> Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
>> with the door closed will.
>
>Not in my experience. Toaster ovens aren't as well insulated, but
>they're much smaller. Not counting the heat (energy) that is lost
>heating the oven itself up, heat is lost through the surface area. My
>regular oven has about 8.5 sq ft surface area (height+depth)*width,
>and takes maybe 15 minutes to get up to temperature. My small toaster
>oven has about 1 sq ft surface area and is up to temperature in under
>a minute.
>
>Ultimately, all that heat energy (less whatever tiny amount was
>absorbed in changing the food chemistry) ends up in your room (and
>costing you money).
>
I had an old fashioned not insulated toaster oven years ago. That
thing put out a lot more heat than my less than new self cleaning oven
ever did. It was never a problem because I live in an area that is
rarely warm, so ambient heat in the kitchen on most days is fine by
me.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Oops, calculated the surface area wrong.

29"x21"x21" is 29*84+2*21*21 = 3318 sq in = 23 sq ft
12"x6"x5" is 12*22+2*6*5 = 324 sq in = 2.2 sq ft

23 sq ft surface area for the regular oven, vs. 2.2 for the toaster oven.

I also use a shelftop electric oven about the size of a microwave (it
actually is a microwave too, but a 500W microwave is too underpowered
to be useful). That's as well insulated as my big oven, judging by
how warm it gets in use.

I do believe in sizing the cooker to the food. A fullsize oven to
roast 2 potatoes is wasteful.

Dave

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 17 May 2009 03:46:39 GMT, jt august >
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> sf > wrote:
>>
>>> Nice to hear they've improved! It's about time.
>>
>>Not all, sadly. You need to shop around. I got lucky in finding a
>>great one at a great price.
>>
>>There are still plenty that are not insulated.
>>
> Noted! Thanks for the update.
>

Whether insulated or not *all* the heat they produce still ends up in the
house... unless you're using your toaster oven outdoors. Most toaster ovens
aren't insulated because those don't have a thermostat... they may have a
few heat settings (Hi, Med, Low) but they're not thermostatically controled.
The insulated units that are thermostatically controlled are not toaster
ovens, they are countertop ovens... full function ovens that happen to be
portable. ALL energy consuming appliances produce heat that when operating
heats whatever space in which they are located.... even a battery operated
wrist watch produces some heat, in fact so does a wind up clock... miniscule
though it may be it literally transforms the energy expended in winding to
heat, over time... yes, that little wind up mantel clock does help to heat
your house.. not only does it tell time it is also an energy/heat storage
device... with enough wind up clocks running in your home you won't have any
heating bills, this is absolutely true.

"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
news
>
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 17 May 2009 03:46:39 GMT, jt august >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>In article >,
>>> sf > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice to hear they've improved! It's about time.
>>>
>>>Not all, sadly. You need to shop around. I got lucky in finding a
>>>great one at a great price.
>>>
>>>There are still plenty that are not insulated.
>>>
>> Noted! Thanks for the update.
>>
>
> Whether insulated or not *all* the heat they produce still ends up in the
> house... unless you're using your toaster oven outdoors. Most toaster
> ovens aren't insulated because those don't have a thermostat... they may
> have a few heat settings (Hi, Med, Low) but they're not thermostatically
> controled. The insulated units that are thermostatically controlled are
> not toaster ovens, they are countertop ovens... full function ovens that
> happen to be portable.

But once again you missed the point, nimrod.
They're smaller.
Smaller.

It's like shitting in a swimming pool vs. shitting in a toilet.


I will agree that electric heat is 100% efficient as all energy (even that
used in the thermostat) is converted to heat.


TFM®