Coffee (rec.drink.coffee) Discussing coffee. This includes selection of brands, methods of making coffee, etc. Discussion about coffee in other forms (e.g. desserts) is acceptable.

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  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 03:41 AM
Barnacle Bill
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

In article m, Michael Legel wrote:

"You probably believe the eight hour work day, overtime, child labor laws,
sweat shop laws, etc. were all "given" to workers out of the intrinsic
goodness of employers?"

The 'eight hour day' was an invention of Henry Ford. He instituted it,
along with unprecedented high wages, because he needed to eliminate the
rampant absenteeism and turnover in his plants. A stable, happy workforce
was absolutely key in the success of Ford. Unions had zero to do with it,
desire for profits everything.

BB


  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 03:41 AM
Barnacle Bill
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

In article m, Michael Legel wrote:

"You probably believe the eight hour work day, overtime, child labor laws,
sweat shop laws, etc. were all "given" to workers out of the intrinsic
goodness of employers?"

The 'eight hour day' was an invention of Henry Ford. He instituted it,
along with unprecedented high wages, because he needed to eliminate the
rampant absenteeism and turnover in his plants. A stable, happy workforce
was absolutely key in the success of Ford. Unions had zero to do with it,
desire for profits everything.

BB

  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 11:18 AM
Dan Clore
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

Barnacle Bill wrote:
In article m, Michael Legel wrote:

"You probably believe the eight hour work day, overtime, child labor laws,
sweat shop laws, etc. were all "given" to workers out of the intrinsic
goodness of employers?"

The 'eight hour day' was an invention of Henry Ford. He instituted it,
along with unprecedented high wages, because he needed to eliminate the
rampant absenteeism and turnover in his plants. A stable, happy workforce
was absolutely key in the success of Ford. Unions had zero to do with it,
desire for profits everything.


He instituted the eight hour workday only after labor
activists had been fighting for it for decades.

--
Dan Clore

Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...edanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

"It's a political statement -- or, rather, an
*anti*-political statement. The symbol for *anarchy*!"
-- Batman, explaining the circle-A graffiti, in
_Detective Comics_ #608

  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 11:18 AM
Dan Clore
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

Barnacle Bill wrote:
In article m, Michael Legel wrote:

"You probably believe the eight hour work day, overtime, child labor laws,
sweat shop laws, etc. were all "given" to workers out of the intrinsic
goodness of employers?"

The 'eight hour day' was an invention of Henry Ford. He instituted it,
along with unprecedented high wages, because he needed to eliminate the
rampant absenteeism and turnover in his plants. A stable, happy workforce
was absolutely key in the success of Ford. Unions had zero to do with it,
desire for profits everything.


He instituted the eight hour workday only after labor
activists had been fighting for it for decades.

--
Dan Clore

Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...edanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

"It's a political statement -- or, rather, an
*anti*-political statement. The symbol for *anarchy*!"
-- Batman, explaining the circle-A graffiti, in
_Detective Comics_ #608

  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 01:18 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

Stan de SD wrote:

Once again, how are most individuals who are only going to work at Starbucks
for a year or two going to receive "benefits"?


Hmmm... let's see...I know! 13 days after the contract, Suzie goes to
the doctor and uses her medical card (*DING*) and gets a prescription,
goes to the drug store and pays a $5 co-pay (*DING*) instead of $47. A
couple days later Jimmy goes to the dentist for an semi-annual check-up
(*DING*). Paulie opened up a 401k account (transferrable to his next
job) and he explained the plan to Kathy on their 30 minute break one
Saturday (*DING*), when they were both working a time and one half pay
(*DING*). She would have opened her account Monday, but she was called
in and ASKED to work (*DING*) an extra shift, since Lew needed to take a
personal day 'cause his kid was sick (*DING*). Mary missed this all,
tho', 'cause she was on a two week paid vacation (*DING*).

"Benefits" are a LOT more than retirement accounts.


In addition, if the benefits received are such to make the dues "miniscule",
who's paying for them?


The IWW is not the sort of union that runs it's own pension funds or
medical plans (those unions are usually in the construction field or
other industries were employees often work for a number of different
employers). If a contract is signed with Starbucks, Starbucks would pay
for the benefits.


Answer those questions before you lecture me about doing my "homework", OK?


Well, you really should do some homework on what the IWW is before you
use your cliche arguments against it. Your replies are particularly
amusing to those who know the IWW...






  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 01:18 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

Stan de SD wrote:

Once again, how are most individuals who are only going to work at Starbucks
for a year or two going to receive "benefits"?


Hmmm... let's see...I know! 13 days after the contract, Suzie goes to
the doctor and uses her medical card (*DING*) and gets a prescription,
goes to the drug store and pays a $5 co-pay (*DING*) instead of $47. A
couple days later Jimmy goes to the dentist for an semi-annual check-up
(*DING*). Paulie opened up a 401k account (transferrable to his next
job) and he explained the plan to Kathy on their 30 minute break one
Saturday (*DING*), when they were both working a time and one half pay
(*DING*). She would have opened her account Monday, but she was called
in and ASKED to work (*DING*) an extra shift, since Lew needed to take a
personal day 'cause his kid was sick (*DING*). Mary missed this all,
tho', 'cause she was on a two week paid vacation (*DING*).

"Benefits" are a LOT more than retirement accounts.


In addition, if the benefits received are such to make the dues "miniscule",
who's paying for them?


The IWW is not the sort of union that runs it's own pension funds or
medical plans (those unions are usually in the construction field or
other industries were employees often work for a number of different
employers). If a contract is signed with Starbucks, Starbucks would pay
for the benefits.


Answer those questions before you lecture me about doing my "homework", OK?


Well, you really should do some homework on what the IWW is before you
use your cliche arguments against it. Your replies are particularly
amusing to those who know the IWW...




  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 01:53 PM
Dan Clore
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

Stan de SD wrote:
"Dan Clore" wrote in message
...
G*rd*n wrote:
"rebelguy" :


I FEEL SORRY FOR THESE STUPID PEOPLE, THEY WERE DUPED BY A MAXIST LABOUR
UNION AND NOW WILL BE TURNING OVER LARGE PARTS OF WHAT THEY MAKE TO A

BUNCH
OF FAT,LAZY WHITE HAIRED UNION BOSS'S WHO SIT ON THEIR ASS'S ALL DAY

MAKING
50-60,000 A YEAR

Your cliché key is stuck.


Not only cliché, but also untrue. In fact, I would hardly
know where to begin to untangle all the falsehoods in this
single sentence. It might make a fun challenge to see who
can point out the most.


OK, Clore, tell us what they will get out of those union dues they will soon
be forced to pay as a condition of working there. Retirement pensions? How
many people are going to make a career of working at Starbucks? Health
benefits? How long will they have to work to obtain those?

Once again, the unions are trying to find a way of financing their Ponzi
scheme retirement plans by looking for new sources of union dues. Suckering
in workers who won't even be around next year to collect any "benefits",
much less 20 years from now, is a racket that any neophyte hustler can
play... :O|


I'm afraid we'll have to disqualify Stain's entry in the
contest. The challenge was to find as many falsehoods as
possible in rebelguy's post, not to brainlessly repeat some
of them. Come on, people: I'll bet there's at least ten
distinct falsehoods in there.

--
Dan Clore

Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...edanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

"It's a political statement -- or, rather, an
*anti*-political statement. The symbol for *anarchy*!"
-- Batman, explaining the circle-A graffiti, in
_Detective Comics_ #608

  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 01:53 PM
Dan Clore
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

Stan de SD wrote:
"Dan Clore" wrote in message
...
G*rd*n wrote:
"rebelguy" :


I FEEL SORRY FOR THESE STUPID PEOPLE, THEY WERE DUPED BY A MAXIST LABOUR
UNION AND NOW WILL BE TURNING OVER LARGE PARTS OF WHAT THEY MAKE TO A

BUNCH
OF FAT,LAZY WHITE HAIRED UNION BOSS'S WHO SIT ON THEIR ASS'S ALL DAY

MAKING
50-60,000 A YEAR

Your cliché key is stuck.


Not only cliché, but also untrue. In fact, I would hardly
know where to begin to untangle all the falsehoods in this
single sentence. It might make a fun challenge to see who
can point out the most.


OK, Clore, tell us what they will get out of those union dues they will soon
be forced to pay as a condition of working there. Retirement pensions? How
many people are going to make a career of working at Starbucks? Health
benefits? How long will they have to work to obtain those?

Once again, the unions are trying to find a way of financing their Ponzi
scheme retirement plans by looking for new sources of union dues. Suckering
in workers who won't even be around next year to collect any "benefits",
much less 20 years from now, is a racket that any neophyte hustler can
play... :O|


I'm afraid we'll have to disqualify Stain's entry in the
contest. The challenge was to find as many falsehoods as
possible in rebelguy's post, not to brainlessly repeat some
of them. Come on, people: I'll bet there's at least ten
distinct falsehoods in there.

--
Dan Clore

Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...edanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

"It's a political statement -- or, rather, an
*anti*-political statement. The symbol for *anarchy*!"
-- Batman, explaining the circle-A graffiti, in
_Detective Comics_ #608

  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 07:32 PM
Stan de SD
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

"Michael Legel" wrote in message
s.com...

"Stan de SD" wrote in message
ink.net...
Stan your rant is typical, outdated and so ludicrous it
would be sad if not for the fact that you probably
actually believe it yourself. Do you have any clue
as to how miniscule union dues are compared to the
benefits received?


Once again, how are most individuals who are only going to work at

Starbucks
for a year or two going to receive "benefits"?

In addition, if the benefits received are such to make the dues

"miniscule",
who's paying for them?

Answer those questions before you lecture me about doing my "homework",

OK?

I don't have to answer your questions.


Because you can't, right?

It would be pointless to do so anyway
... you are not going to be convinced by me.


Given that you can't answer my questions.

Thus I suggest you really
research these questions for yourself,


I have researched them myself, and it appears that union dues paid by people
who don't draw benefits go to subsidize somebody else. That's a no-brainer.

only then will you realize the truth
that unions have provided far more benefit to employers, employees and
consumers than any other fraternal group in history.


Proof?

That is the fact that
you will not believe unless you read it for yourself.


I'm asking for proof, not a bunch of pro-union rhetoric.

I suspect you don't do
the research because you simply WON'T believe this is possible. You

probably
believe the eight hour work day, overtime, child labor laws, sweat shop

laws,
etc. were all "given" to workers out of the intrinsic goodness of

employers?

Unions can't give away what isn't made possible by a higher standard of
living brought on by increasing wealth and technological development.


  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 07:32 PM
Stan de SD
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

"Michael Legel" wrote in message
s.com...

"Stan de SD" wrote in message
ink.net...
Stan your rant is typical, outdated and so ludicrous it
would be sad if not for the fact that you probably
actually believe it yourself. Do you have any clue
as to how miniscule union dues are compared to the
benefits received?


Once again, how are most individuals who are only going to work at

Starbucks
for a year or two going to receive "benefits"?

In addition, if the benefits received are such to make the dues

"miniscule",
who's paying for them?

Answer those questions before you lecture me about doing my "homework",

OK?

I don't have to answer your questions.


Because you can't, right?

It would be pointless to do so anyway
... you are not going to be convinced by me.


Given that you can't answer my questions.

Thus I suggest you really
research these questions for yourself,


I have researched them myself, and it appears that union dues paid by people
who don't draw benefits go to subsidize somebody else. That's a no-brainer.

only then will you realize the truth
that unions have provided far more benefit to employers, employees and
consumers than any other fraternal group in history.


Proof?

That is the fact that
you will not believe unless you read it for yourself.


I'm asking for proof, not a bunch of pro-union rhetoric.

I suspect you don't do
the research because you simply WON'T believe this is possible. You

probably
believe the eight hour work day, overtime, child labor laws, sweat shop

laws,
etc. were all "given" to workers out of the intrinsic goodness of

employers?

Unions can't give away what isn't made possible by a higher standard of
living brought on by increasing wealth and technological development.




  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 08:02 PM
G*rd*n
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

Stan your rant is typical, outdated and so ludicrous it
would be sad if not for the fact that you probably
actually believe it yourself. Do you have any clue
as to how miniscule union dues are compared to the
benefits received?


"Stan de SD" :
Once again, how are most individuals who are only going to work at Starbucks
for a year or two going to receive "benefits"?

In addition, if the benefits received are such to make the dues "miniscule",
who's paying for them?
Answer those questions before you lecture me about doing my "homework", OK?


"Michael Legel" :
I don't have to answer your questions.


"Stan de SD" :
Because you can't, right?



No, because someone else answered the questions.

It's truly sad to see someone of even limited intelligence
wasting precious electrons like this. Why don't you get
together with Barnacle Bill and at least read the relevant
material? Get a few facts? BB seems to be in even worse
shape than you. You could help each other. Then, when
you wanted to abuse the lower classes, you could do it
with a little style, anyway.


...

--

() /*/
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ }"{
{
http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 5/10/04 -adv't
  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 08:02 PM
G*rd*n
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

Stan your rant is typical, outdated and so ludicrous it
would be sad if not for the fact that you probably
actually believe it yourself. Do you have any clue
as to how miniscule union dues are compared to the
benefits received?


"Stan de SD" :
Once again, how are most individuals who are only going to work at Starbucks
for a year or two going to receive "benefits"?

In addition, if the benefits received are such to make the dues "miniscule",
who's paying for them?
Answer those questions before you lecture me about doing my "homework", OK?


"Michael Legel" :
I don't have to answer your questions.


"Stan de SD" :
Because you can't, right?



No, because someone else answered the questions.

It's truly sad to see someone of even limited intelligence
wasting precious electrons like this. Why don't you get
together with Barnacle Bill and at least read the relevant
material? Get a few facts? BB seems to be in even worse
shape than you. You could help each other. Then, when
you wanted to abuse the lower classes, you could do it
with a little style, anyway.


...

--

() /*/
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ }"{
{
http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 5/10/04 -adv't
  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 10:06 PM
Paragon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW


"Stan de SD" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Paragon" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Stan de SD" wrote in message
link.net...

"Dan Clore" wrote in message
...
G*rd*n wrote:
"rebelguy" :

I FEEL SORRY FOR THESE STUPID PEOPLE, THEY WERE DUPED BY A MAXIST

LABOUR
UNION AND NOW WILL BE TURNING OVER LARGE PARTS OF WHAT THEY MAKE

TO
A
BUNCH
OF FAT,LAZY WHITE HAIRED UNION BOSS'S WHO SIT ON THEIR ASS'S ALL

DAY
MAKING
50-60,000 A YEAR

Your cliché key is stuck.

Not only cliché, but also untrue. In fact, I would hardly
know where to begin to untangle all the falsehoods in this
single sentence. It might make a fun challenge to see who
can point out the most.

OK, Clore, tell us what they will get out of those union dues they

will
soon
be forced to pay as a condition of working there. Retirement pensions?

How
many people are going to make a career of working at Starbucks? Health
benefits? How long will they have to work to obtain those?

Once again, the unions are trying to find a way of financing their

Ponzi
scheme retirement plans by looking for new sources of union dues.

Suckering
in workers who won't even be around next year to collect any

"benefits",
much less 20 years from now, is a racket that any neophyte hustler can
play... :O|


Hmmmm......what do I get out my union...? Let me think: regular raises

not
based on favortism, recognized seniority for schedule picks and

vacations,
overtime (no, it not all covered by the Federal law), better working
conditions, paid holidays,
health benefits (after I finished my probationary period of 90 days),

jury
duty pay, bereavement pay, a grievance procedure for when the boss

screws
me
over (and he will), meal periods (no, the state and federal law don't

really
touch that, either), report pay (so they don't call me in for 20 minutes

of
work after a 30 minute drive), premium pay for certain jobs, transfer
guidelines, protection against managers doing my work and taking my

hours,
guidelines for drug testing.......


I'm currently self-employed, and even with a lukewarm economy, my monthly
income is 3-4 times what I earned at the only union job I ever worked.
Again, the same question applies - given that benefits are aimed towards
long-term career employees, how will the average college-age student

benefit
when he or she is going to move down the road in a year or two?


Better working conditions, breaks, regular raises, sick pay, paid
holidays.....My company has a lot of college-age people, and they do benefit
from those things, even in the short term. I would like to know exactly
what brought on the desire for a union in this NY Starbucks. I doubt
someone woke up one day and said "hey, let's organize." Many times, it not
the unions who go in to try to organize, it's the employees who make the
first contact after putting up with all sorts of abuse from the employer.

Anyone know what precipitated this particular push?



  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 10:06 PM
Paragon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW


"Stan de SD" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Paragon" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Stan de SD" wrote in message
link.net...

"Dan Clore" wrote in message
...
G*rd*n wrote:
"rebelguy" :

I FEEL SORRY FOR THESE STUPID PEOPLE, THEY WERE DUPED BY A MAXIST

LABOUR
UNION AND NOW WILL BE TURNING OVER LARGE PARTS OF WHAT THEY MAKE

TO
A
BUNCH
OF FAT,LAZY WHITE HAIRED UNION BOSS'S WHO SIT ON THEIR ASS'S ALL

DAY
MAKING
50-60,000 A YEAR

Your cliché key is stuck.

Not only cliché, but also untrue. In fact, I would hardly
know where to begin to untangle all the falsehoods in this
single sentence. It might make a fun challenge to see who
can point out the most.

OK, Clore, tell us what they will get out of those union dues they

will
soon
be forced to pay as a condition of working there. Retirement pensions?

How
many people are going to make a career of working at Starbucks? Health
benefits? How long will they have to work to obtain those?

Once again, the unions are trying to find a way of financing their

Ponzi
scheme retirement plans by looking for new sources of union dues.

Suckering
in workers who won't even be around next year to collect any

"benefits",
much less 20 years from now, is a racket that any neophyte hustler can
play... :O|


Hmmmm......what do I get out my union...? Let me think: regular raises

not
based on favortism, recognized seniority for schedule picks and

vacations,
overtime (no, it not all covered by the Federal law), better working
conditions, paid holidays,
health benefits (after I finished my probationary period of 90 days),

jury
duty pay, bereavement pay, a grievance procedure for when the boss

screws
me
over (and he will), meal periods (no, the state and federal law don't

really
touch that, either), report pay (so they don't call me in for 20 minutes

of
work after a 30 minute drive), premium pay for certain jobs, transfer
guidelines, protection against managers doing my work and taking my

hours,
guidelines for drug testing.......


I'm currently self-employed, and even with a lukewarm economy, my monthly
income is 3-4 times what I earned at the only union job I ever worked.
Again, the same question applies - given that benefits are aimed towards
long-term career employees, how will the average college-age student

benefit
when he or she is going to move down the road in a year or two?


Better working conditions, breaks, regular raises, sick pay, paid
holidays.....My company has a lot of college-age people, and they do benefit
from those things, even in the short term. I would like to know exactly
what brought on the desire for a union in this NY Starbucks. I doubt
someone woke up one day and said "hey, let's organize." Many times, it not
the unions who go in to try to organize, it's the employees who make the
first contact after putting up with all sorts of abuse from the employer.

Anyone know what precipitated this particular push?



  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2004, 11:52 PM
yossarian
 
Posts: n/a
Default Starbucks Workers Join IWW

Good for the workers at Starbucks. I don't know about them but my dues
are only $12 bucks a month. And, what do you have against a marxist
labor union? Although, in all honesty, one of the reasons I joined was
to irritate the anti-union folks. A lot of what I do is only to irritate
others. Socrates was my hero you see.


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