I'm looking for a new drip maker that makes great coffee (of course)
but also is fairly compact. I've had an old Krups that I was happy
with for about 10 years, but its on its last legss.

Just looking for more data to compare.

I've read some web reviews that suggest the Krups 453 and the Braun
KF187 are top makers, but the 453 seems rather bulky and the KF187
seems to be discontinued.

Anyone have any good suggestions or URL's of good reviews?

Thanks,

Frank G.

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote:

> I'm looking for a new drip maker that makes great coffee (of course)
> but also is fairly compact. I've had an old Krups that I was happy
> with for about 10 years, but its on its last legss.
>
> Just looking for more data to compare.
>
> I've read some web reviews that suggest the Krups 453 and the Braun
> KF187 are top makers, but the 453 seems rather bulky and the KF187
> seems to be discontinued.

In case replies are being sent off-group, could I put in a plea for the
same information, please? (In my case I'm not so worried about
compactness -- just good coffee.)

I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker. What I need is
advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
want coffee.

Thanks in advance,
Peter J. King

--
Dr Peter J. King
Lecturer in Philosophy
Pembroke College
Oxford OX1 1DW

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote:

> I'm looking for a new drip maker that makes great coffee (of course)
> but also is fairly compact. I've had an old Krups that I was happy
> with for about 10 years, but its on its last legss.
>
> Just looking for more data to compare.
>
> I've read some web reviews that suggest the Krups 453 and the Braun
> KF187 are top makers, but the 453 seems rather bulky and the KF187
> seems to be discontinued.

In case replies are being sent off-group, could I put in a plea for the
same information, please? (In my case I'm not so worried about
compactness -- just good coffee.)

I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker. What I need is
advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
want coffee.

Thanks in advance,
Peter J. King

--
Dr Peter J. King
Lecturer in Philosophy
Pembroke College
Oxford OX1 1DW

In article . ac.uk>,
Peter King > wrote:

> I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
> by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker. What I need is
> advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
> has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
> straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
> I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
> want coffee.

Get a Chemex or a cone filter holder. Best bang for the buck:
<http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.brewers.shtml>

As far as autobrew, Philips made a good machine; you may have better
luck finding it in the UK than here in the US.

The main criterion is whether the machine heats the water hot enough, to
ensure proper extraction. Brewing temperature should be 92 to 96 degrees
C; I believe the Cuisinart machines, as well as some of the Capressos,
meet this standard (as well as the Philips).

Second thing to look for: a machine that brews into a thermal carafe. It
is FAR better to keep the coffee warm with a carafe than with a heating
pad; the latter makes the coffee become bitter after about 20 minutes.

--
to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net"
please mail OT responses only

In article . ac.uk>,
Peter King > wrote:

> I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
> by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker. What I need is
> advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
> has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
> straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
> I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
> want coffee.

Get a Chemex or a cone filter holder. Best bang for the buck:
<http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.brewers.shtml>

As far as autobrew, Philips made a good machine; you may have better
luck finding it in the UK than here in the US.

The main criterion is whether the machine heats the water hot enough, to
ensure proper extraction. Brewing temperature should be 92 to 96 degrees
C; I believe the Cuisinart machines, as well as some of the Capressos,
meet this standard (as well as the Philips).

Second thing to look for: a machine that brews into a thermal carafe. It
is FAR better to keep the coffee warm with a carafe than with a heating
pad; the latter makes the coffee become bitter after about 20 minutes.

--
to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net"
please mail OT responses only

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Scott wrote:

> In article . ac.uk>,
> Peter King > wrote:
>
> > I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
> > by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker. What I need is
> > advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
> > has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
> > straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
> > I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
> > want coffee.

> [...]
> As far as autobrew, Philips made a good machine; you may have better
> luck finding it in the UK than here in the US.

Thanks -- but are *all* Philips machines OK, or just one particular model?
(This was another problem with some of the on-line reviews I read: they
sang the praises of a particular machine, which turned out to be
unavailable, but replaced by a new model. As with everything from hi-fi
to computers to CDs, there's no guarantee that the new "improved" version
will be as good as the old one.)

> The main criterion is whether the machine heats the water hot enough, to
> ensure proper extraction. Brewing temperature should be 92 to 96 degrees
> C; I believe the Cuisinart machines, as well as some of the Capressos,
> meet this standard (as well as the Philips).

I know -- but that sort of information is hard to find (and I don't know
about the U.S., but shops here don't seem to think much of people going
round with a thermometer and a bottle of water...). I don't know if
Cuisinart are sold here, but again, is it all models?

> Second thing to look for: a machine that brews into a thermal carafe. It
> is FAR better to keep the coffee warm with a carafe than with a heating
> pad; the latter makes the coffee become bitter after about 20 minutes.

Not a problem -- I drink what I make when I make it. How could I bear the
thought of coffee just sitting there not being drunk?

Thanks again for the response.

Peter J. King

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Scott wrote:

> In article . ac.uk>,
> Peter King > wrote:
>
> > I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
> > by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker. What I need is
> > advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
> > has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
> > straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
> > I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
> > want coffee.

> [...]
> As far as autobrew, Philips made a good machine; you may have better
> luck finding it in the UK than here in the US.

Thanks -- but are *all* Philips machines OK, or just one particular model?
(This was another problem with some of the on-line reviews I read: they
sang the praises of a particular machine, which turned out to be
unavailable, but replaced by a new model. As with everything from hi-fi
to computers to CDs, there's no guarantee that the new "improved" version
will be as good as the old one.)

> The main criterion is whether the machine heats the water hot enough, to
> ensure proper extraction. Brewing temperature should be 92 to 96 degrees
> C; I believe the Cuisinart machines, as well as some of the Capressos,
> meet this standard (as well as the Philips).

I know -- but that sort of information is hard to find (and I don't know
about the U.S., but shops here don't seem to think much of people going
round with a thermometer and a bottle of water...). I don't know if
Cuisinart are sold here, but again, is it all models?

> Second thing to look for: a machine that brews into a thermal carafe. It
> is FAR better to keep the coffee warm with a carafe than with a heating
> pad; the latter makes the coffee become bitter after about 20 minutes.

Not a problem -- I drink what I make when I make it. How could I bear the
thought of coffee just sitting there not being drunk?

Thanks again for the response.

Peter J. King

Peter King > sez:

>On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote:
>> I'm looking for a new drip maker that makes great coffee (of course)
>> but also is fairly compact. I've had an old Krups that I was happy
>> with for about 10 years, but its on its last legss.
>>
>> Just looking for more data to compare.
>>
>> I've read some web reviews that suggest the Krups 453 and the Braun
>> KF187 are top makers, but the 453 seems rather bulky and the KF187
>> seems to be discontinued.
>
>In case replies are being sent off-group, could I put in a plea for the
>same information, please? (In my case I'm not so worried about
>compactness -- just good coffee.)

Oddly enough, absolutely no one responded. I expected a lot
of responses considering the fervor of most newsgroups.

>I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
>by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker.

Exactly what I've found.

>What I need is advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
>has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
>straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
>I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
>want coffee.

Exactly my situation Peter.

I've since discovered that Cooks Illustrated (a resource that I
trust) did a thorough evaluation. You cannot get the text of the
review unless you subscribe online to their site/service. But
I found this review-of-a-review on consumersearch.com:

Though we've downgraded this review slightly for its age, this is the best
review we found on coffee makers. A special task force of "coffee authorities"
tests six machines from different manufacturers. According to these experts,
most home machines fail to reach the optimal water temperature for brewing great
coffee (195-205 degrees), which requires at least 1250 Watts power). The top
choice is the Krups ProAroma 12 Time with NaturActiv Filter Model 453, followed
by Black & Decker Kitchen Tools CMKT800, and Braun FlavorSelect KF 187. The
review warns against Mr. Coffee Elite PRX33, Betty Crocker 12-Cup Auto-Drip
BC-1754, and Hamilton Beach Aroma Express 49271, whose coffee was found "average
to awful," "watery," and "worst tasting coffee of the lot," accordingly.

I have also found out that there were a number of blog/wiki/forum posts
from people that just loved their Braun KF187, but despite the very
positive consumer feedback... Braun decided to discontinue the KF187
and replace it with an inferior model after Braun was acquired by
Gillette (ugh).

This week I'm going to pick up the Braun KF580 (white)... albeit
with some reservations...

Frank G.
+=========================================+
| Crossroads Technologies Inc. |
| www.CrossroadsTech dot com |
| fgreco @ REMOVE!cross!roads!tech!dot!com|
+=========================================+

Peter King > sez:

>On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote:
>> I'm looking for a new drip maker that makes great coffee (of course)
>> but also is fairly compact. I've had an old Krups that I was happy
>> with for about 10 years, but its on its last legss.
>>
>> Just looking for more data to compare.
>>
>> I've read some web reviews that suggest the Krups 453 and the Braun
>> KF187 are top makers, but the 453 seems rather bulky and the KF187
>> seems to be discontinued.
>
>In case replies are being sent off-group, could I put in a plea for the
>same information, please? (In my case I'm not so worried about
>compactness -- just good coffee.)

Oddly enough, absolutely no one responded. I expected a lot
of responses considering the fervor of most newsgroups.

>I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
>by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker.

Exactly what I've found.

>What I need is advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
>has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
>straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
>I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
>want coffee.

Exactly my situation Peter.

I've since discovered that Cooks Illustrated (a resource that I
trust) did a thorough evaluation. You cannot get the text of the
review unless you subscribe online to their site/service. But
I found this review-of-a-review on consumersearch.com:

Though we've downgraded this review slightly for its age, this is the best
review we found on coffee makers. A special task force of "coffee authorities"
tests six machines from different manufacturers. According to these experts,
most home machines fail to reach the optimal water temperature for brewing great
coffee (195-205 degrees), which requires at least 1250 Watts power). The top
choice is the Krups ProAroma 12 Time with NaturActiv Filter Model 453, followed
by Black & Decker Kitchen Tools CMKT800, and Braun FlavorSelect KF 187. The
review warns against Mr. Coffee Elite PRX33, Betty Crocker 12-Cup Auto-Drip
BC-1754, and Hamilton Beach Aroma Express 49271, whose coffee was found "average
to awful," "watery," and "worst tasting coffee of the lot," accordingly.

I have also found out that there were a number of blog/wiki/forum posts
from people that just loved their Braun KF187, but despite the very
positive consumer feedback... Braun decided to discontinue the KF187
and replace it with an inferior model after Braun was acquired by
Gillette (ugh).

This week I'm going to pick up the Braun KF580 (white)... albeit
with some reservations...

Frank G.
+=========================================+
| Crossroads Technologies Inc. |
| www.CrossroadsTech dot com |
| fgreco @ REMOVE!cross!roads!tech!dot!com|
+=========================================+

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote [to r.f.d.c.; I've added a.f.c.
in the hope of a wider response]:

> Peter King > put in a pleas for help on
buying a coffee maker:

> Oddly enough, absolutely no one responded. I expected a lot
> of responses considering the fervor of most newsgroups.

Actually Scott [Heimdall?] did, but only in terms of general makes
(Philips (and Caressos and Cuisinart, of which more below)); there's been
no response for my follow-up request for models (do *all* Philips do
well, or only certain models?).

> [...] The top choice is the Krups ProAroma 12 Time with NaturActiv
> Filter Model 453, followed by Black & Decker Kitchen Tools CMKT800, and
> Braun FlavorSelect KF 187. The review warns against Mr. Coffee Elite
> PRX33, Betty Crocker 12-Cup Auto-Drip BC-1754, and Hamilton Beach Aroma
> Express 49271, whose coffee was found "average to awful," "watery," and
> "worst tasting coffee of the lot," accordingly.

Now, here's another problem for me; of all these, only the Krups and Braun
are likely to be easily found (or found at all) here; I've never heard of
Mr Coffee, Betty Crocker, or Hamilton Beach (or Caresso; and though I've
heard of Cuisinart, I don't think they're sold here) The idea of a Black
& Decker coffee maker is, well, peculiar; we know them almost exclusively
for DIY tools -- drills, etc.

The main makes likely to be found in English shops include Rowenta,
Gaggia, deLonghi, Morphy Richards, Miele, Braun, Krups, Philips, Kenwood,
Breville, Bosch, Tefal, Russell Hobbs -- well, I've missed a few, but I
think that the most likely a

Braun
deLonghi
Gaggia
Krups
Philips
Rowenta.

I've seen good reviews of the Rowenta CT278, the Philips HD7610, HD7612,
and HD7624, the Braun Flavor Select (and I can now add the review you've
posted), the deLonghi DCR902T Retro, and the Krups Moca Brew (I suspect
that some of the Philips models, expecially, are no longer available).

Can anyone else vouch for or rule out any of these? I'd be very grateful.

Peter


--
Dr Peter J. King
Lecturer in Philosophy
Pembroke College
Oxford OX1 1DW

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote [to r.f.d.c.; I've added a.f.c.
in the hope of a wider response]:

> Peter King > put in a pleas for help on
buying a coffee maker:

> Oddly enough, absolutely no one responded. I expected a lot
> of responses considering the fervor of most newsgroups.

Actually Scott [Heimdall?] did, but only in terms of general makes
(Philips (and Caressos and Cuisinart, of which more below)); there's been
no response for my follow-up request for models (do *all* Philips do
well, or only certain models?).

> [...] The top choice is the Krups ProAroma 12 Time with NaturActiv
> Filter Model 453, followed by Black & Decker Kitchen Tools CMKT800, and
> Braun FlavorSelect KF 187. The review warns against Mr. Coffee Elite
> PRX33, Betty Crocker 12-Cup Auto-Drip BC-1754, and Hamilton Beach Aroma
> Express 49271, whose coffee was found "average to awful," "watery," and
> "worst tasting coffee of the lot," accordingly.

Now, here's another problem for me; of all these, only the Krups and Braun
are likely to be easily found (or found at all) here; I've never heard of
Mr Coffee, Betty Crocker, or Hamilton Beach (or Caresso; and though I've
heard of Cuisinart, I don't think they're sold here) The idea of a Black
& Decker coffee maker is, well, peculiar; we know them almost exclusively
for DIY tools -- drills, etc.

The main makes likely to be found in English shops include Rowenta,
Gaggia, deLonghi, Morphy Richards, Miele, Braun, Krups, Philips, Kenwood,
Breville, Bosch, Tefal, Russell Hobbs -- well, I've missed a few, but I
think that the most likely a

Braun
deLonghi
Gaggia
Krups
Philips
Rowenta.

I've seen good reviews of the Rowenta CT278, the Philips HD7610, HD7612,
and HD7624, the Braun Flavor Select (and I can now add the review you've
posted), the deLonghi DCR902T Retro, and the Krups Moca Brew (I suspect
that some of the Philips models, expecially, are no longer available).

Can anyone else vouch for or rule out any of these? I'd be very grateful.

Peter


--
Dr Peter J. King
Lecturer in Philosophy
Pembroke College
Oxford OX1 1DW

My Braun KF187 is the best drip coffee machine I've ever used beyond
any doubt. I had a Krups ProAroma before this one that I was generally
happy with, but the Braun has taught me just how good a cup of coffee
one can brew with a relatively inexpensive appliance. I use bottled
water and good Costa Rican beans and couldn't possibly be more pleased
with the results. If Braun discontinued this model, shame on them, but
if you can find one, snap it up quickly and you won't be sorry you did.

Mudge

In article . ac.uk>,
Peter King > wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote [to r.f.d.c.; I've added a.f.c.
> in the hope of a wider response]:
>
> > Peter King > put in a pleas for help on
> buying a coffee maker:
>
> > Oddly enough, absolutely no one responded. I expected a lot
> > of responses considering the fervor of most newsgroups.
>
> Actually Scott [Heimdall?] did, but only in terms of general makes
> (Philips (and Caressos and Cuisinart, of which more below)); there's been
> no response for my follow-up request for models (do *all* Philips do
> well, or only certain models?).
>
> > [...] The top choice is the Krups ProAroma 12 Time with NaturActiv
> > Filter Model 453, followed by Black & Decker Kitchen Tools CMKT800, and
> > Braun FlavorSelect KF 187. The review warns against Mr. Coffee Elite
> > PRX33, Betty Crocker 12-Cup Auto-Drip BC-1754, and Hamilton Beach Aroma
> > Express 49271, whose coffee was found "average to awful," "watery," and
> > "worst tasting coffee of the lot," accordingly.
>
> Now, here's another problem for me; of all these, only the Krups and Braun
> are likely to be easily found (or found at all) here; I've never heard of
> Mr Coffee, Betty Crocker, or Hamilton Beach (or Caresso; and though I've
> heard of Cuisinart, I don't think they're sold here) The idea of a Black
> & Decker coffee maker is, well, peculiar; we know them almost exclusively
> for DIY tools -- drills, etc.
>
> The main makes likely to be found in English shops include Rowenta,
> Gaggia, deLonghi, Morphy Richards, Miele, Braun, Krups, Philips, Kenwood,
> Breville, Bosch, Tefal, Russell Hobbs -- well, I've missed a few, but I
> think that the most likely a
>
> Braun
> deLonghi
> Gaggia
> Krups
> Philips
> Rowenta.
>
> I've seen good reviews of the Rowenta CT278, the Philips HD7610, HD7612,
> and HD7624, the Braun Flavor Select (and I can now add the review you've
> posted), the deLonghi DCR902T Retro, and the Krups Moca Brew (I suspect
> that some of the Philips models, expecially, are no longer available).
>
> Can anyone else vouch for or rule out any of these? I'd be very grateful.
>
> Peter

My Braun KF187 is the best drip coffee machine I've ever used beyond
any doubt. I had a Krups ProAroma before this one that I was generally
happy with, but the Braun has taught me just how good a cup of coffee
one can brew with a relatively inexpensive appliance. I use bottled
water and good Costa Rican beans and couldn't possibly be more pleased
with the results. If Braun discontinued this model, shame on them, but
if you can find one, snap it up quickly and you won't be sorry you did.

Mudge

In article . ac.uk>,
Peter King > wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote [to r.f.d.c.; I've added a.f.c.
> in the hope of a wider response]:
>
> > Peter King > put in a pleas for help on
> buying a coffee maker:
>
> > Oddly enough, absolutely no one responded. I expected a lot
> > of responses considering the fervor of most newsgroups.
>
> Actually Scott [Heimdall?] did, but only in terms of general makes
> (Philips (and Caressos and Cuisinart, of which more below)); there's been
> no response for my follow-up request for models (do *all* Philips do
> well, or only certain models?).
>
> > [...] The top choice is the Krups ProAroma 12 Time with NaturActiv
> > Filter Model 453, followed by Black & Decker Kitchen Tools CMKT800, and
> > Braun FlavorSelect KF 187. The review warns against Mr. Coffee Elite
> > PRX33, Betty Crocker 12-Cup Auto-Drip BC-1754, and Hamilton Beach Aroma
> > Express 49271, whose coffee was found "average to awful," "watery," and
> > "worst tasting coffee of the lot," accordingly.
>
> Now, here's another problem for me; of all these, only the Krups and Braun
> are likely to be easily found (or found at all) here; I've never heard of
> Mr Coffee, Betty Crocker, or Hamilton Beach (or Caresso; and though I've
> heard of Cuisinart, I don't think they're sold here) The idea of a Black
> & Decker coffee maker is, well, peculiar; we know them almost exclusively
> for DIY tools -- drills, etc.
>
> The main makes likely to be found in English shops include Rowenta,
> Gaggia, deLonghi, Morphy Richards, Miele, Braun, Krups, Philips, Kenwood,
> Breville, Bosch, Tefal, Russell Hobbs -- well, I've missed a few, but I
> think that the most likely a
>
> Braun
> deLonghi
> Gaggia
> Krups
> Philips
> Rowenta.
>
> I've seen good reviews of the Rowenta CT278, the Philips HD7610, HD7612,
> and HD7624, the Braun Flavor Select (and I can now add the review you've
> posted), the deLonghi DCR902T Retro, and the Krups Moca Brew (I suspect
> that some of the Philips models, expecially, are no longer available).
>
> Can anyone else vouch for or rule out any of these? I'd be very grateful.
>
> Peter

I love my new Kitchenaid Classic 10 cup maker. It brews at 200+, in less
than 7 minutes and costs $39.00 at Lowes.


"Peter King" > wrote in message
.ox.ac.uk...
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a new drip maker that makes great coffee (of course)
> > but also is fairly compact. I've had an old Krups that I was happy
> > with for about 10 years, but its on its last legss.
> >
> > Just looking for more data to compare.
> >
> > I've read some web reviews that suggest the Krups 453 and the Braun
> > KF187 are top makers, but the 453 seems rather bulky and the KF187
> > seems to be discontinued.
>
> In case replies are being sent off-group, could I put in a plea for the
> same information, please? (In my case I'm not so worried about
> compactness -- just good coffee.)
>
> I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
> by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker. What I need is
> advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
> has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
> straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
> I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
> want coffee.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Peter J. King
>
> --
> Dr Peter J. King
> Lecturer in Philosophy
> Pembroke College
> Oxford OX1 1DW

I love my new Kitchenaid Classic 10 cup maker. It brews at 200+, in less
than 7 minutes and costs $39.00 at Lowes.


"Peter King" > wrote in message
.ox.ac.uk...
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Frank D. Greco wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a new drip maker that makes great coffee (of course)
> > but also is fairly compact. I've had an old Krups that I was happy
> > with for about 10 years, but its on its last legss.
> >
> > Just looking for more data to compare.
> >
> > I've read some web reviews that suggest the Krups 453 and the Braun
> > KF187 are top makers, but the 453 seems rather bulky and the KF187
> > seems to be discontinued.
>
> In case replies are being sent off-group, could I put in a plea for the
> same information, please? (In my case I'm not so worried about
> compactness -- just good coffee.)
>
> I've tried on-line reviews, and have found them contradictory, and mostly
> by people who have just bought their first coffee-maker. What I need is
> advice from people who know what they're talking about. My coffee-maker
> has just died, also after over ten years service, and I need a simple,
> straightforward maker of good filter coffee. I don't want steamed milk,
> I don't want clever gadgets that are almost certain to go wrong, I just
> want coffee.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Peter J. King
>
> --
> Dr Peter J. King
> Lecturer in Philosophy
> Pembroke College
> Oxford OX1 1DW

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, David J. wrote:

> I love my new Kitchenaid Classic 10 cup maker. It brews at 200+, in less
> than 7 minutes and costs $39.00 at Lowes.

Hmmm, another brand not available here (and "Lowes", I think - assuming
that it's a shop - isn't found this side of the Atlantic). Is KitchenAid
stuff made by Hobarts? I used to work for them, in my pre-philosophy
days. I can't think off-hand what "200+" means in real degrees, but I'd a
vague idea that that was hotter than it should be for good coffee -- but
perhaps I'm wrong.

PJK

--
Dr Peter J. King
Lecturer in Philosophy
Pembroke College
Oxford OX1 1DW

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004, David J. wrote:

> I love my new Kitchenaid Classic 10 cup maker. It brews at 200+, in less
> than 7 minutes and costs $39.00 at Lowes.

Hmmm, another brand not available here (and "Lowes", I think - assuming
that it's a shop - isn't found this side of the Atlantic). Is KitchenAid
stuff made by Hobarts? I used to work for them, in my pre-philosophy
days. I can't think off-hand what "200+" means in real degrees, but I'd a
vague idea that that was hotter than it should be for good coffee -- but
perhaps I'm wrong.

PJK

--
Dr Peter J. King
Lecturer in Philosophy
Pembroke College
Oxford OX1 1DW

> The main criterion is whether the machine heats the water hot enough, to
> ensure proper extraction. Brewing temperature should be 92 to 96 degrees
> C; I believe the Cuisinart machines, as well as some of the Capressos,
> meet this standard (as well as the Philips).

I wonder how to go about determining what temperature a coffee maching is
actually heating the water to before dripping it through the coffee since
most machines have hotplates under the carafe? Also, does any company other
then Braun specifically claim that their machines properly heat the water?

Why bother with gold-tone filters since, in my experience, they increase the
likelihood of the machine to overflow during brewing? Is the flavor of
coffee improved by not using a paper filter? And regarding paper filters,
any idea why the cone type cost about 3X as much as the basket type?

> The main criterion is whether the machine heats the water hot enough, to
> ensure proper extraction. Brewing temperature should be 92 to 96 degrees
> C; I believe the Cuisinart machines, as well as some of the Capressos,
> meet this standard (as well as the Philips).

I wonder how to go about determining what temperature a coffee maching is
actually heating the water to before dripping it through the coffee since
most machines have hotplates under the carafe? Also, does any company other
then Braun specifically claim that their machines properly heat the water?

Why bother with gold-tone filters since, in my experience, they increase the
likelihood of the machine to overflow during brewing? Is the flavor of
coffee improved by not using a paper filter? And regarding paper filters,
any idea why the cone type cost about 3X as much as the basket type?

On 2004-04-04 said:
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.coffee
> The main criterion is whether the machine heats the water hot
>enough, to ensure proper extraction. Brewing temperature should
>be 92 to 96 degrees C; I believe the Cuisinart machines, as well
>as some of the Capressos, meet this standard (as well as the
Philips).
I wonder how to go about determining what temperature a coffee
maching is actually heating the water to before dripping it through
the coffee since most machines have hotplates under the carafe?
Also, does any company other then Braun specifically claim that
their machines properly heat the water?
Why bother with gold-tone filters since, in my experience, they
increase the likelihood of the machine to overflow during brewing?
Is the flavor of coffee improved by not using a paper filter? And
regarding paper filters, any idea why the cone type cost about 3X
as much as the basket type?

The hot plate under the carafe is designed to keep the coffee hot after
brewing. It does not effect the brewing temperature in most models, with
the possible exception of some of the cheapest models where the same heating
device serves to both heat the water for brewing and keep the coffee hot in
the carafe after brewing.

MOst of the brand lines that have been traditionally considered to be among
the better brands have people who claim they all heat the water to the
optimum reccommended brewing temperature.

I have seen ads and statements from Bunn claiming that they make the only
machines for the home market that get the water hot enough to brew a good
cup of coffee. The last three times that Consumer Reports tested
coffeemakers and actually listed the temperature of the coffee of the tested
models in the carafe immediately after brewing stopped, the Bunn machines
were among the coolest machines tested. They usually measured the temp in
the carafe right after brewing, not the temperature of the water at the
point where it leaves the nozzles just before going into the ground coffee.

I tried two different KitchenAid machines, I believe it was either KCM-200
or DCM-200 12-cup models a couple of years ago. I liked their rounded body
styling, and I liked the way the controls were mounted midway along the
front of the machine, well above the warmer plate. When I saw the nice
heavy-duty three-prong electrical cord, I felt reassured that this machine
just might be a good hot brewer. No matter what variety of coffee I used,
how I ground it, or whether I used a permanent filter or a paper filter, I
could only get rather bland, nondescript brew out of those machines. Almost
none of the distinctive characteristics of a given origin of coffee bean, or
a given roast profile stood out in the output from those KitchenAid
machines. I did not keep either one long enough to determine whether the
problem lay with water not hot enough, or contact time not long enough, or
water not agitated enough inside the filter basket, or some combination of
any or all of those things was the cause of the insipid output.
My old early 1990's-vintage Krups Cafe Aroma 12-cup model, and my 12-cup
Braun FlavorSelect models brew a good enough cup of coffee that I have a
hard time trying to justify spending $185 to $225 plus shipping and handling
to see if those Philips Technivorm models are any better at all.

As for paper versus gold-tone or other permanent filters, the big strike
against paper is that it tends to soak up and blot out from your carafe and
your cup, a large percentage of the volatile oils that carry the components
that give good coffee much of the aroma and flavor characteristics that set
good coffee apart from the older, cheaper, more stale run-of-the-mill stuff
that most people drink most of the time.
The cone-shaped or modified-cone-shaped filters are considerably more
expensive than the flat pleated cupcake-style filters used in machines from
the likes of Mr. Coffee and Black and Decker, and Sunbeam, and
Hamilton-Beech. The quality of the paper is better and thicker, and in the
case of the Melitta brand filters, they actually have what Melitta calls,
"flavor pores" that are supposed to allow more of those volatile oils to get
through the paper and into the carafe or cup.

Some of the price difference may be due to quality of materials and extra
production costs, but I'm sure some of it is also due to smaller production
runs, and even a certain amount of hype and snob appeal. After all, it's
those more expensive European-brand models that use the cone type filters.
Even a few "Euro-styled" Mr. Coffee models now use those cone type filters.

As for the issue of the gold filter holding water in the basket longer and
overflowing the brew basket, you have to play around with different grind
settings any time you change filter brands or types, or machines, and
sometimes even different types and roasts of coffee beans to get your
machine's optimum combination of filtration and drip rate for a given filter
type or coffee type.

Reply to:
Brent Reynolds, Atlanta, GA USA

On 2004-04-04 said:
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.coffee
> The main criterion is whether the machine heats the water hot
>enough, to ensure proper extraction. Brewing temperature should
>be 92 to 96 degrees C; I believe the Cuisinart machines, as well
>as some of the Capressos, meet this standard (as well as the
Philips).
I wonder how to go about determining what temperature a coffee
maching is actually heating the water to before dripping it through
the coffee since most machines have hotplates under the carafe?
Also, does any company other then Braun specifically claim that
their machines properly heat the water?
Why bother with gold-tone filters since, in my experience, they
increase the likelihood of the machine to overflow during brewing?
Is the flavor of coffee improved by not using a paper filter? And
regarding paper filters, any idea why the cone type cost about 3X
as much as the basket type?

The hot plate under the carafe is designed to keep the coffee hot after
brewing. It does not effect the brewing temperature in most models, with
the possible exception of some of the cheapest models where the same heating
device serves to both heat the water for brewing and keep the coffee hot in
the carafe after brewing.

MOst of the brand lines that have been traditionally considered to be among
the better brands have people who claim they all heat the water to the
optimum reccommended brewing temperature.

I have seen ads and statements from Bunn claiming that they make the only
machines for the home market that get the water hot enough to brew a good
cup of coffee. The last three times that Consumer Reports tested
coffeemakers and actually listed the temperature of the coffee of the tested
models in the carafe immediately after brewing stopped, the Bunn machines
were among the coolest machines tested. They usually measured the temp in
the carafe right after brewing, not the temperature of the water at the
point where it leaves the nozzles just before going into the ground coffee.

I tried two different KitchenAid machines, I believe it was either KCM-200
or DCM-200 12-cup models a couple of years ago. I liked their rounded body
styling, and I liked the way the controls were mounted midway along the
front of the machine, well above the warmer plate. When I saw the nice
heavy-duty three-prong electrical cord, I felt reassured that this machine
just might be a good hot brewer. No matter what variety of coffee I used,
how I ground it, or whether I used a permanent filter or a paper filter, I
could only get rather bland, nondescript brew out of those machines. Almost
none of the distinctive characteristics of a given origin of coffee bean, or
a given roast profile stood out in the output from those KitchenAid
machines. I did not keep either one long enough to determine whether the
problem lay with water not hot enough, or contact time not long enough, or
water not agitated enough inside the filter basket, or some combination of
any or all of those things was the cause of the insipid output.
My old early 1990's-vintage Krups Cafe Aroma 12-cup model, and my 12-cup
Braun FlavorSelect models brew a good enough cup of coffee that I have a
hard time trying to justify spending $185 to $225 plus shipping and handling
to see if those Philips Technivorm models are any better at all.

As for paper versus gold-tone or other permanent filters, the big strike
against paper is that it tends to soak up and blot out from your carafe and
your cup, a large percentage of the volatile oils that carry the components
that give good coffee much of the aroma and flavor characteristics that set
good coffee apart from the older, cheaper, more stale run-of-the-mill stuff
that most people drink most of the time.
The cone-shaped or modified-cone-shaped filters are considerably more
expensive than the flat pleated cupcake-style filters used in machines from
the likes of Mr. Coffee and Black and Decker, and Sunbeam, and
Hamilton-Beech. The quality of the paper is better and thicker, and in the
case of the Melitta brand filters, they actually have what Melitta calls,
"flavor pores" that are supposed to allow more of those volatile oils to get
through the paper and into the carafe or cup.

Some of the price difference may be due to quality of materials and extra
production costs, but I'm sure some of it is also due to smaller production
runs, and even a certain amount of hype and snob appeal. After all, it's
those more expensive European-brand models that use the cone type filters.
Even a few "Euro-styled" Mr. Coffee models now use those cone type filters.

As for the issue of the gold filter holding water in the basket longer and
overflowing the brew basket, you have to play around with different grind
settings any time you change filter brands or types, or machines, and
sometimes even different types and roasts of coffee beans to get your
machine's optimum combination of filtration and drip rate for a given filter
type or coffee type.

Reply to:
Brent Reynolds, Atlanta, GA USA

> The hot plate under the carafe is designed to keep the coffee hot =
after
> brewing. It does not effect the brewing temperature in most models, =
with
> the possible exception of some of the cheapest models where the same =
heating
> device serves to both heat the water for brewing and keep the coffee =
hot in
> the carafe after brewing.
>=20
> MOst of the brand lines that have been traditionally considered to be =
among
> the better brands have people who claim they all heat the water to the
> optimum reccommended brewing temperature.
>=20
> I have seen ads and statements from Bunn claiming that they make the =
only
> machines for the home market that get the water hot enough to brew a =
good
> cup of coffee. The last three times that Consumer Reports tested
> coffeemakers and actually listed the temperature of the coffee of the =
tested
> models in the carafe immediately after brewing stopped, the Bunn =
machines
> were among the coolest machines tested. They usually measured the =
temp in
> the carafe right after brewing, not the temperature of the water at =
the
> point where it leaves the nozzles just before going into the ground =
coffee.
>=20
> I tried two different KitchenAid machines, I believe it was either =
KCM-200
> or DCM-200 12-cup models a couple of years ago. I liked their rounded =
body
> styling, and I liked the way the controls were mounted midway along =
the
> front of the machine, well above the warmer plate. When I saw the =
nice
> heavy-duty three-prong electrical cord, I felt reassured that this =
machine
> just might be a good hot brewer. No matter what variety of coffee I =
used,
> how I ground it, or whether I used a permanent filter or a paper =
filter, I
> could only get rather bland, nondescript brew out of those machines. =
Almost
> none of the distinctive characteristics of a given origin of coffee =
bean, or
> a given roast profile stood out in the output from those KitchenAid
> machines. I did not keep either one long enough to determine whether =
the
> problem lay with water not hot enough, or contact time not long =
enough, or
> water not agitated enough inside the filter basket, or some =
combination of
> any or all of those things was the cause of the insipid output.
> My old early 1990's-vintage Krups Cafe Aroma 12-cup model, and my =
12-cup
> Braun FlavorSelect models brew a good enough cup of coffee that I have =
a
> hard time trying to justify spending $185 to $225 plus shipping and =
handling
> to see if those Philips Technivorm models are any better at all.
>=20
> As for paper versus gold-tone or other permanent filters, the big =
strike
> against paper is that it tends to soak up and blot out from your =
carafe and
> your cup, a large percentage of the volatile oils that carry the =
components
> that give good coffee much of the aroma and flavor characteristics =
that set
> good coffee apart from the older, cheaper, more stale run-of-the-mill =
stuff
> that most people drink most of the time.
> The cone-shaped or modified-cone-shaped filters are considerably more
> expensive than the flat pleated cupcake-style filters used in machines =
from
> the likes of Mr. Coffee and Black and Decker, and Sunbeam, and
> Hamilton-Beech. The quality of the paper is better and thicker, and =
in the
> case of the Melitta brand filters, they actually have what Melitta =
calls,
> "flavor pores" that are supposed to allow more of those volatile oils =
to get
> through the paper and into the carafe or cup.
>=20
> Some of the price difference may be due to quality of materials and =
extra
> production costs, but I'm sure some of it is also due to smaller =
production
> runs, and even a certain amount of hype and snob appeal. After all, =
it's
> those more expensive European-brand models that use the cone type =
filters.
> Even a few "Euro-styled" Mr. Coffee models now use those cone type =
filters.
>=20
> As for the issue of the gold filter holding water in the basket longer =
and
> overflowing the brew basket, you have to play around with different =
grind
> settings any time you change filter brands or types, or machines, and
> sometimes even different types and roasts of coffee beans to get your
> machine's optimum combination of filtration and drip rate for a given =
filter
> type or coffee type.
>=20
> Reply to:
> Brent Reynolds, Atlanta, GA USA

Thanks for the detailed answer. Regarding filters, would you care to =
take a position based on personal experience?, i.e. does coffee made =
with a gold/permanent filter taste better then coffee made with a paper =
filter? Can you tell the difference between coffees made with cone Vs =
cupcake filters?

> The hot plate under the carafe is designed to keep the coffee hot =
after
> brewing. It does not effect the brewing temperature in most models, =
with
> the possible exception of some of the cheapest models where the same =
heating
> device serves to both heat the water for brewing and keep the coffee =
hot in
> the carafe after brewing.
>=20
> MOst of the brand lines that have been traditionally considered to be =
among
> the better brands have people who claim they all heat the water to the
> optimum reccommended brewing temperature.
>=20
> I have seen ads and statements from Bunn claiming that they make the =
only
> machines for the home market that get the water hot enough to brew a =
good
> cup of coffee. The last three times that Consumer Reports tested
> coffeemakers and actually listed the temperature of the coffee of the =
tested
> models in the carafe immediately after brewing stopped, the Bunn =
machines
> were among the coolest machines tested. They usually measured the =
temp in
> the carafe right after brewing, not the temperature of the water at =
the
> point where it leaves the nozzles just before going into the ground =
coffee.
>=20
> I tried two different KitchenAid machines, I believe it was either =
KCM-200
> or DCM-200 12-cup models a couple of years ago. I liked their rounded =
body
> styling, and I liked the way the controls were mounted midway along =
the
> front of the machine, well above the warmer plate. When I saw the =
nice
> heavy-duty three-prong electrical cord, I felt reassured that this =
machine
> just might be a good hot brewer. No matter what variety of coffee I =
used,
> how I ground it, or whether I used a permanent filter or a paper =
filter, I
> could only get rather bland, nondescript brew out of those machines. =
Almost
> none of the distinctive characteristics of a given origin of coffee =
bean, or
> a given roast profile stood out in the output from those KitchenAid
> machines. I did not keep either one long enough to determine whether =
the
> problem lay with water not hot enough, or contact time not long =
enough, or
> water not agitated enough inside the filter basket, or some =
combination of
> any or all of those things was the cause of the insipid output.
> My old early 1990's-vintage Krups Cafe Aroma 12-cup model, and my =
12-cup
> Braun FlavorSelect models brew a good enough cup of coffee that I have =
a
> hard time trying to justify spending $185 to $225 plus shipping and =
handling
> to see if those Philips Technivorm models are any better at all.
>=20
> As for paper versus gold-tone or other permanent filters, the big =
strike
> against paper is that it tends to soak up and blot out from your =
carafe and
> your cup, a large percentage of the volatile oils that carry the =
components
> that give good coffee much of the aroma and flavor characteristics =
that set
> good coffee apart from the older, cheaper, more stale run-of-the-mill =
stuff
> that most people drink most of the time.
> The cone-shaped or modified-cone-shaped filters are considerably more
> expensive than the flat pleated cupcake-style filters used in machines =
from
> the likes of Mr. Coffee and Black and Decker, and Sunbeam, and
> Hamilton-Beech. The quality of the paper is better and thicker, and =
in the
> case of the Melitta brand filters, they actually have what Melitta =
calls,
> "flavor pores" that are supposed to allow more of those volatile oils =
to get
> through the paper and into the carafe or cup.
>=20
> Some of the price difference may be due to quality of materials and =
extra
> production costs, but I'm sure some of it is also due to smaller =
production
> runs, and even a certain amount of hype and snob appeal. After all, =
it's
> those more expensive European-brand models that use the cone type =
filters.
> Even a few "Euro-styled" Mr. Coffee models now use those cone type =
filters.
>=20
> As for the issue of the gold filter holding water in the basket longer =
and
> overflowing the brew basket, you have to play around with different =
grind
> settings any time you change filter brands or types, or machines, and
> sometimes even different types and roasts of coffee beans to get your
> machine's optimum combination of filtration and drip rate for a given =
filter
> type or coffee type.
>=20
> Reply to:
> Brent Reynolds, Atlanta, GA USA

Thanks for the detailed answer. Regarding filters, would you care to =
take a position based on personal experience?, i.e. does coffee made =
with a gold/permanent filter taste better then coffee made with a paper =
filter? Can you tell the difference between coffees made with cone Vs =
cupcake filters?

On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 09:16:15 -0700, Swingman > wrote:
>
> I wonder how to go about determining what temperature a coffee maching is
> actually heating the water to before dripping it through the coffee since
> most machines have hotplates under the carafe? Also, does any company other
> then Braun specifically claim that their machines properly heat the water?

My Bunn A-10 series machine brews at 190°F to 195°F.
Measured by threading a thermocouple into the grounds
and observing the temperature over the brew cycle.

Paper filters do trap some of the coffee oils, which
contain some of the flavor. However, since the
extraction time and temp are optimized, I don't think
the flavor lost to the paper filter is that noticeable,
though I've never actually done a side by side cupping
of the Bunn coffee to a vac pot or french press.

--
Steve Ackman
http://twoloonscoffee.com

On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 09:16:15 -0700, Swingman > wrote:
>
> I wonder how to go about determining what temperature a coffee maching is
> actually heating the water to before dripping it through the coffee since
> most machines have hotplates under the carafe? Also, does any company other
> then Braun specifically claim that their machines properly heat the water?

My Bunn A-10 series machine brews at 190°F to 195°F.
Measured by threading a thermocouple into the grounds
and observing the temperature over the brew cycle.

Paper filters do trap some of the coffee oils, which
contain some of the flavor. However, since the
extraction time and temp are optimized, I don't think
the flavor lost to the paper filter is that noticeable,
though I've never actually done a side by side cupping
of the Bunn coffee to a vac pot or french press.

--
Steve Ackman
http://twoloonscoffee.com