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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
State beer sales going flat
Per capita drinking lowest since 1947 Monday, June 14, 2004 By Bill Toland, Post-Gazette Harrisburg Bureau HARRISBURG -- All this depressing talk about Pittsburgh's impending tax increases and another losing season for the Pirates is enough to drive a person to drink. Jay Goldstein would welcome such a move -- provided you crack open a beer instead of mixing yourself one of those fancy, fruity cocktails. Goldstein, president of the Pennsylvania Beer Wholesalers Association, says the state's beer industry is flagging just as badly as the city treasury and the hometown ballclub. State beer tax revenues were down by 5 percent for calendar year 2003, the biggest single-year drop since World War II. Through this year, beer tax receipts are down by an additional 3 percent. Translation: Per-capita annual consumption of beer and malt liquor among drinking-age Pennsylvania residents is less than 23 gallons a person, the lowest consumption rate since 1947. The slide, Goldstein said, started in February 2003 and has been continuing monthly since then. But is that a bad omen for local brewers and distributors? Or just a one-year, blown-out-of-proportion anomaly, exaggerated by an above-average sales year in 2002? Depends on whether your pint glass is half-full or half-empty. Goldstein says that while the state has been relaxing liquor and wine laws to allow for Sunday sales hours and a grocery store presence, laws governing beer distribution in Pennsylvania remain too strict. "All we can do is stand there and get pummeled and lose more business," Goldstein said, cursing the Legislature on one hand while crediting Jonathan Newman, chairman of the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board, with reinvigorating the staid spirits agency. Goldstein, whose family owns beer outlets in Allentown, has his own motives for highlighting the slumping sales. He's been lobbying the state to allow for the sale of 12-packs at beer distributors, the theory being that a six-pack isn't enough for a dinner party but a whole case is too much. Demonstrating lower-than-usual sales could prompt rule changes at the legislative level. But Dick Yuengling, president of Pottsville's D.G. Yuengling & Son, said Goldstein's sky-is-falling routine is one part truth, one part puffery. "I think Pennsylvania had an off year," Yuengling said. "But it's just a blip. It's happened before. We don't get excited -- we've been around for 125 years." Either way, there's no denying that Pennsylvania beer-makers, as well as those who distribute it, have spent the last few years fending off a confluence of local and national trends: A nationwide health kick, low-carb diets, took the beer industry by surprise. Brand lines advertised as having low carbohydrate levels are gaining market share, but the staying power of the Atkins low-carb diet could eventually have a detrimental effect on overall beer sales. The so-called baby-boomlet -- the sons and daughters of baby boomers -- are exiting their prime beer-drinking years and approaching their 30s, an age when many turn to more expensive wines and cocktails over beer and malt beverages. Locally, the continuing decline in numbers of veterans clubs, social clubs like the Elks and Eagles, and old mill bars means Pennsylvania is losing a sliver of its reliable beer market each year. And though his theory is unproven, Goldstein wonders if schools have inadvertently bred a generation of kids, now drinking age, who prefer sweet drinks to bitter ones. "When I was in school, you had a choice of milk from the cafeteria or the water fountain," said Goldstein, in his 50s. "Now, there's soda pop and fruit juice machines in every school," he said. "We've developed a generation of wine and spirit drinkers," who prefer a Sea Breeze to a Guinness. That's a legitimate beef, reflected in the sales of "malternatives," those sweet, fruity bottled drinks like Mike's Hard Lemonade. Popular since 2000, such beverages initially didn't cut into overall beer sales because the drinks were primarily produced by traditional brewers. But now that hard liquor companies have gotten into the act -- Smirnoff Ice and Jack Daniel's Original Hard Cola, for example -- brewers are feeling more of the bite, even though those liquor-brand brews are still sold through beer distributors, not liquor stores. It all added up to a lousy year for beer in Pennsylvania, even as some of the regional brewers are experiencing growing sales outside of the state. Yuengling, for example, has been selling well regionally, especially since it opened a second brewery in Tampa, Fla., five years ago and a third in St. Clair, Pa., in 2001. Previously available in four states, Yuengling soon will be sold in 10. Even so, "I think certain markets are struggling," Dick Yuengling said. That includes traditional beer strongholds, nationally and even worldwide. Last year, beer sales in Germany were down about 5 percent from the year before, and about 1 million fewer people visited the 2003 Munich beer festival, mostly because Germans have become more health-conscious, according to a journal called "World Drink Trends." Meanwhile, Japan's major brewers took a major hit in 2003, with Sapporo's sales dropping nearly 13 percent and brands Kirin and Suntory reporting declines of 7 percent, according to a recent report on the Japanese beer industry. And in Britain, home to the smoky pub, beer consumption recently sank to a 30-year low, even as sales of wine shot up by nearly 9 percent and spirits sales grew by 2 percent, according to a news report by the BBC. Steve Kniley, spokesman for the Department of Revenue, acknowledged that Pennsylvania beer sales have been flat for the last decade. But viewed over a two-decade stretch, it's been a slow slide of small decreases. From 1982 to 1990, Pennsylvania routinely took in more than $28 million in beer taxes, cresting at $28.9 million in 1990. Over the last 10 years, the number has hovered between $25 million and $27 million. Lately, Kniley calculated, "it seems to me it's been pretty stable. It's not going up, but it's not going down a whole lot, either. ... They're drinking about the same." The slow slide in beer receipts stands in contrast to the great surge in liquor and spirits sales in Pennsylvania. From 1994 to 2003, Pennsylvania's liquor tax receipts have grown from $119 million to $193 million, according to the revenue department. The tax rates on both malt beverage and liquor have been the same for decades, meaning the only variable is the amount sold. The malt beverage tax, commonly called the beer excise tax, is 8 cents on the gallon, $2.48 on a barrel and about a penny on the pint. The tax, in the end, is paid by the consumer, but remitted by manufacturers, importers and distributors. The liquor tax stands at a flat 18 percent. Even though beer is taking a battering from liquor, many brewers say it's up to the beer-makers, not the lawmakers, to adapt to changing consumer and health trends. At Pittsburgh Brewing Co., the company's advertising campaign has for about two years now been focusing on "more taste, less waist," and lately has been touting I.C. Light's carbohydrate count compared to other light beers. As a result, said Jeff Vavro, Pittsburgh Brewing Co.'s spokesman, I.C. Light has seen increased sales for the last three years. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
TOM KAN PA wrote... > State beer sales going flat > > Per capita drinking lowest since 1947 > > Monday, June 14, 2004 > By Bill Toland, Post-Gazette Harrisburg Bureau What a joke. This reporter does all this research and comes to conclusions that ignore the entire issue. And the issue, for those here who don't know Pennsylvania liquor laws, is that state liquor laws were drawn up after prohibition and haven't been overturned. You can't buy beer in a supermarket or a convenience store. You can't even buy beer in a state/package/liquor store. You can buy a case from a beer distributor, but not a bottle, six pack, or twelve pack. You can buy a bottle or six pack from a bar or deli, but not a case. Then if somebody proposes a plan to give Pennsylvania liquor laws like every (actually almost every) other state, legislators from rural areas make speeches about how any change in the law will turn the entire population into alcoholics and the legislation gets shot down. Why didn't any of this get mentioned in the article? I'm not worried about the good beer market as I see more 15-30 tap bars opening and it's become rare to go to a bar or restaurant that doesn't have at least Sierra Nevada or Sam Adams. But if the businesses in the state are worried about per capita beer consumption, then stop making it artificially difficult to buy beer. -Tom W |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Todd Klondike > wrote:
> c (TOM KAN PA) posted message > >on 14 Jun 2004 > 18:29:40 GMT >>State beer sales going flat > <snip> > > Not my fault. I'm doing more than my share. Must be Lew's--I heard he's gone on the Atk!n$ diet. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
<< But if the businesses in the state are
worried about per capita beer consumption, then stop making it artificially difficult to buy beer.>> ____Reply Separator_____ Amen to that! |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
I noticed in the article the person pushing selling beer by the 12 pack does
not suggest that beer be sold in supermarkets. That would increase sales on impulse especially to women who most of the grocery shopping. An ad runs on TV and the person shopping remembers it, but cannot buy the beer because it is not sold in the supermarket. Too much trouble to go to the distributor. Also it seems that small local bars, where people can pick up a six-pack are being replaced by chain type places where I never see a cooler to grab a six-pack. Tom > Uhhh...when's the last time you had difficulty buying beer in Pa? > |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Todd Klondike > wrote:
(TOM KAN PA) posted message >><< But if the businesses in the state are >>worried about per capita beer consumption, then stop making it artificially >>difficult to buy beer.>> >> >>Amen to that! > >Uhhh...when's the last time you had difficulty buying beer in Pa? Early May. Well, I had difficulty buying a *well-kept* beer at Monks. -- Joel Plutchak "Senza la birra tutto diventa orfano." plutchak@[...] - Italian proverb (slightly revised) |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Todd Klondike > wrote:
> "mary" > posted message > >on Wed, 16 Jun 2004 > 21:24:50 -0400 >>I noticed in the article the person pushing selling beer by the 12 pack does >>not suggest that beer be sold in supermarkets. That would increase sales on >>impulse especially to women who most of the grocery shopping. An ad runs on >>TV and the person shopping remembers it, but cannot buy the beer because it >>is not sold in the supermarket. Too much trouble to go to the distributor. > > If going to the distributor is 'too much trouble', then you didn't > want a beer very bad, now did you? A Libertarian's paradise! (Oy!) > Missing out on 'impulse buyers' hardly equals 'difficulty buying > beer'. I'd say 'not being able to buy your beer where you buy your meat' does indeed equal 'difficulty buying beer.' Beer is food. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Joel > wrote:
> Todd Klondike > wrote: [...] >>Uhhh...when's the last time you had difficulty buying beer in Pa? > > Early May. Well, I had difficulty buying a *well-kept* > beer at Monks. Sweet! |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Todd Klondike wrote > > If going to the distributor is 'too much trouble', then you didn't > want a beer very bad, now did you? > > Missing out on 'impulse buyers' hardly equals 'difficulty buying > beer'. The only reason beer distributors exist is because of the post-prohibition liquor laws which were supposed to keep organized crime (made up of former bootleggers) out of the alcohol market. You can buy a case only from a distributor and they spend a lot of money lobbying the legislature to keep it that way. Missing out on impulse buying does indeed equal difficulty buying beer in a competitive marketplace. People who are shopping for dinner parties or barbeques want to buy their food and drink at the same store. Consumers are limited in the time they want to spend shopping and an impulse sale lost is money spent on other beverages. Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a radical idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah). You're right when you say that if going to a distributor is too much trouble then I don't want a beer that badly. I drink a beer or two almost every day but I feel that I really need a beer maybe once a month. That means most of my beer puchases are impulse buys and that can be the difference between keeping a business open and seeing it close. People on this list from Pennsylvania are from Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. I assume that there really is a difficulty buying beer (especially good beer) in other parts of the state. -Tom W |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Tom Wolper wrote:
> Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a radical > idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah). Wow, you really ought to get out more. There are a LOT of states without beer sales in supermarkets (and, generally, one can say that the better beer selections exist in such states). New Jersey and Massachusetts sell beer in liquor stores, for just two examples of states with great beer selections without supermarket sales. In fact, as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in supermarkets (old, exposed to light and poor selections). I've said it before (and, granted, it might be an outdated reason) but I think a major reason Pennsylvania had more independent breweries left (and no majors to speak of) than any other state in the pre-micro days was your system of beer sales. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
> wrote:
>Tom Wolper wrote: >> Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a radical >> idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah). > >Wow, you really ought to get out more. There are a LOT of states >without beer sales in supermarkets (and, generally, one can say that the >better beer selections exist in such states). Generally?! You need to get out more. Beer selection in (for example) Wisconsin and Illinois is great, and both states allow beer sales in grocery stores. (Wine too, and at least in Illinois spirits as well.) >In fact, as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in >supermarkets (old, exposed to light and poor selections). Beer is also sold in "liquor stores" in IL and WI, and there's nothing special about those wrt the condition of the beer. IOW that's a straw man argument. >I've said it before (and, granted, it might be an outdated reason) but I >think a major reason Pennsylvania had more independent breweries left >(and no majors to speak of) than any other state in the pre-micro days >was your system of beer sales. Per capita? Wisconsin may have given PA a run for its money. And gosh, both states have large population with German ancestry. But that wouldn't have anything to do with it. -- Joel Plutchak "Senza la birra tutto diventa orfano." plutchak@[...] - Italian proverb (slightly revised) |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Joel wrote:
> > wrote: > >>Tom Wolper wrote: >> >>> Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a radical >>>idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah). >> >>Wow, you really ought to get out more. There are a LOT of states >>without beer sales in supermarkets (and, generally, one can say that the >>better beer selections exist in such states). > > > Generally?! Yeah, generally but I should have said "I" instead of "one" and so I'll say "Generally, *I'LL* say that I find it EASIER to find good beer in states with beer sales NOT exclusively in grocery stores". You need to get out more. Yup, who doesn't? > Beer selection > in (for example) Wisconsin and Illinois is great, and both > states allow beer sales in grocery stores. (Wine too, and > at least in Illinois spirits as well.) OK, we've now covered 4 states other than PA (Utah's still up in the air- drove thru it once but don't remember the beer situation). I still say the guy's wrong that ONLY PA and Utah don't sell beer in grocery stores. >>In fact, as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in >>supermarkets (old, exposed to light and poor selections). > > > Beer is also sold in "liquor stores" in IL and WI, and > there's nothing special about those wrt the condition of > the beer. I can't figure out the typo "wrt" <g> BUT I'll make another "general" statement. Beer sold in closed cases (as in PA) is generally going to be better protected from light and easier to spot a date code on a case than beer in open six packs on open refrigerated shelving as in a grocery store. > >>I've said it before (and, granted, it might be an outdated reason) but I >>think a major reason Pennsylvania had more independent breweries left >>(and no majors to speak of) than any other state in the pre-micro days >>was your system of beer sales. > > > Per capita? No, total number. Wisconsin may have given PA a run for its > money. Yeah, they did but their total also had 3 or 4 or 5 of the largest brewers (Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heileman), and thus not "independent" in the sense of regional and local brands. PA's locals also had a broader spectrum of beers (still brewed porters and ales). And gosh, both states have large population with > German ancestry. But that wouldn't have anything to do with > it. I didn't say "The reason", I said a "major reason" and I'd say the German ancestry had a lot more effect in Wisconsin than in PA. Here's the deal in PA- You had to buy a CASE at a time and you usually wound up buying it in the same store in town. The 25 or 50 cent different in a six pack price of Yeungling versus Bud thus looked a lot different when it's $2 or more a case. And the real bargain was in buying it in deposit bottles and since you bought your beer at the same place, deposits didn't seem as much a hassle and the local beers all came in 12 and especially 16 bottles at prices that Miller and A-B couldn't compete with. Yeah, things are different these days, the beer market, the state's breweries, etc. (I don't know, could Shangy's exist anywhere else, though?) but it's NOT the only state without grocery store sales. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Todd Klondike > wrote:
>sleurB kciN > posted message >>> Missing out on 'impulse buyers' hardly equals 'difficulty buying >>> beer'. >> >>I'd say 'not being able to buy your beer where you buy your meat' >>does indeed equal 'difficulty buying beer.' Beer is food. > >So you're saying they should sell meat at the beer distributor? Beer is food. Meat is not beer. Simple logic. -- Joel Plutchak "Senza la birra tutto diventa orfano." plutchak@[...] - Italian proverb (slightly revised) |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Todd Klondike wrote... > >Missing out on impulse buying does indeed equal difficulty buying beer in a > >competitive marketplace. > > Don't be silly. If you want beer, you go to where beer is sold. Let's go back to the article that started this thread. It said that beer sales are declining per capita in the state. I personally don't care that they are, as long as I can find an imperial stout or marzen when I am in the mood. The article isn't about good beer, though, it's about beer sales in general. There was no mentin of market share for craft brews or imports but I have a feeling (and if you can prove me wrong I will accept it) that the decline is in macrobrews. > > >People who are shopping for dinner parties or > >barbeques want to buy their food and drink at the same store. Consumers are > >limited in the time they want to spend shopping and an impulse sale lost is > >money spent on other beverages. Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a radical > >idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah). > > I'm sure your count is off. All you've done is try to make a case > that it'd be more convenient if they sold beer on every corner. And > it would. But that hardly equates with 'difficulty in buying beer'. Again, back to the original article: beer sales are declining. I am saying that they would go up if beer were more readily available which is obvious and was ignored in the article. According to "Why We Buy" by Paco Underhill, 60% of purchases made are decided on in the store. I am willing to make a special trip to a beer store (distributor or specialty deli) just to get my imperial stout or marzen, but my buying habits aren't the issue in the article. If you want to increase sales, you have to put the commodity where shoppers will find it on impulse. > > > >You're right when you say that if going to a distributor is too much trouble > >then I don't want a beer that badly. I drink a beer or two almost every day > >but I feel that I really need a beer maybe once a month. That means most of > >my beer puchases are impulse buys and that can be the difference between > >keeping a business open and seeing it close. > > Nonsense, of course. A beer or two every day is not impulse, it's > habit. Or, it could be addiction, but I'll be kind, as I apparently > drink more than you. I am past my heavy drinking days, at least the binge years. If I'm at a restaurant or party and macrobrews are all that is available, then I have no problem going without. I don't suffer cravings. > > > > >People on this list from Pennsylvania are from Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. > >I assume that there really is a difficulty buying beer (especially good > >beer) in other parts of the state. > > I live in a small town about an hour outside of Philly. I have no > trouble buying beer. As much as I want. Since I am usually fast > asleep before the bars close, I can buy beer whenever I want, too. > > Ya know what? I don't think having beer in the local minimarts is > convenient enough. I think we should demand home delivery! And > drive-through sixpack shops on every block. > I could have added Harrisburg to Pgh and Philly. In any case, I'm not advocating beer on every corner, especially since the beer would most likely be macrobrews. All I wanted to say is that if you are going to write an article about declining beer sales in the state, you should mention that the liquor laws provide a disincentive to consumers. -Tom W |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
> wrote in message
t... > Wow, you really ought to get out more. There are a LOT of states > without beer sales in supermarkets (and, generally, one can say that the > better beer selections exist in such states). New Jersey and > Massachusetts sell beer in liquor stores, for just two examples of > states with great beer selections without supermarket sales. In fact, > as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in supermarkets (old, > exposed to light and poor selections). That's just silly. Hating entire states because they allow beer sales in groceries? OK, so you're engaging in some hyperbole. But just because some stores don't take great care of their beer doesn't mean all stores are like that. I've seen plenty of (usually upscale) grocers that take good care of their beer, and are excellent places to buy from. Plus, allowing grocers to sell beer makes it easier for shops to combine gourmet drinks (for lack of a better term) with gourmet foods (a la Bierkraft in Brooklyn or Khan's in Indianapolis or Sam's in Chicago or Hi-Time Wine in suburban LA). And those shops are a good thing -Steve |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
> wrote in message
t... > OK, we've now covered 4 states other than PA (Utah's still up in the > air- drove thru it once but don't remember the beer situation). I still > say the guy's wrong that ONLY PA and Utah don't sell beer in grocery stores. He is. I know that Minnesota and Oklahoma also don't allow grocery sales of beer and wine (well, they allow 3.2 beer, but that doesn't count). BTW, the poster you were responding to pointed out that Illinois and Wisconsin allow sale of beer in groceries. > I can't figure out the typo "wrt" <g> BUT I'll make another "general" > statement. Beer sold in closed cases (as in PA) is generally going to > be better protected from light and easier to spot a date code on a case > than beer in open six packs on open refrigerated shelving as in a > grocery store. Probably. OTOH, that beer often times has not been refrigerated, and who knows how long it's been sitting in its case like that. You trade one potential problem for another. It's a wash, IMO. > >>I've said it before (and, granted, it might be an outdated reason) but I > >>think a major reason Pennsylvania had more independent breweries left > >>(and no majors to speak of) than any other state in the pre-micro days > >>was your system of beer sales. > > > > > > Per capita? > > No, total number. Even then, it might be close. In Wisconsin, Leinenkugel, Schlitz, Pabst, Miller an Steven's Point all survived as independent breweries into the 70s. What eventually became Heliemann in LaCrosse, as well, although I don't recall the history of that brewery off the top of my head. I don't know the PA brewery history well at all. Yeungling, obviously, and Latrobe. Who else? Pittsburgh, IIRC, and the Lion. > Yeah, they did but their total also had 3 or 4 or 5 of the largest > brewers (Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heileman), and thus not > "independent" in the sense of regional and local brands. Independent does not mean regional or local. It means free of other ownership. And, at least in terms of judging the survival of breweries, what difference should it make if they were big or small? Besides, until the 70s, Schlitz and Bud were really the only big national brands. Miller to some degree as well. > Here's the deal in PA- You had to buy a CASE at a time and you > usually wound up buying it in the same store in town. The 25 or 50 cent > different in a six pack price of Yeungling versus Bud thus looked a lot > different when it's $2 or more a case. And the real bargain was in > buying it in deposit bottles and since you bought your beer at the same > place, deposits didn't seem as much a hassle and the local beers all > came in 12 and especially 16 bottles at prices that Miller and A-B > couldn't compete with. Yeah, things are different these days, the beer > market, the state's breweries, etc. (I don't know, could Shangy's exist > anywhere else, though?) but it's NOT the only state without grocery > store sales. I've heard various theories about the effect PA's case law has had on beer sales, and I've not seen a whole lot of empirical evidence to go along with any of them. Of the prominent theories, I'm less willing to grant this one than the one that credits the case law for the fact that PA enjoys either the largest or second-largest per capita draft beer sales in the country. -Steve |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Steve Jackson wrote:
> > wrote in message > t... >> In fact, >>as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in supermarkets (old, >>exposed to light and poor selections). > > > That's just silly. Hating entire states because they allow beer sales in > groceries? Oh, Jesus, you guys are really sensitive about this, huh? How's this- "I really find it annoying to be vacationing in or traveling through states where beer is sold in supermarkets. Often, I don't have time to search out a gourmet grocery store (or there's none in the area) and I'm left with one huge, brightly light aisle of national brands and common imports and what local beers they may have often look old and mishandled." (Granted, the same can be said for many- too many- liquor stores in those other states). |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
"Tom Wolper" > wrote in message
link.net... > I stand corrected. I do remember "banquet beer" at convenience stores in > Salt Lake City, though, which is something you don't see in Pennsylvania. It's 3.2 beer. Utah is one of a handful of states that bars sales of beer above 3.2 percent ABW in groceries and convenience stores. Minnesota and Oklahoma do the same. > There was some reason the nationals couldn't penetrate the market or at > least didn't try. When they did come in, that meant the end for a lot of > small brewers. Part of the reason was that it wasn't until the 70s and 80s that there really became a national beer market. Beer was still largely regional up until that point, with some scattered national brands, mainly Schlitz and Bud. -Steve |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
"Tom Wolper" > wrote in message
ink.net... > Again, back to the original article: beer sales are declining. I am saying > that they would go up if beer were more readily available which is obvious > and was ignored in the article. And, other than hunch, what makes you confident in that? Just as I haven't seen any empirical evidence to back the assertion that PA's case law and distributor system helped more regional breweries survive, I haven't seen any empirical evidence that easier accessibility would create more demand. Plenty of states with "easy" access to beer have seen their consumption drop over the last couple decades. Because, well, alcohol consumption has dropped over the last couple decades in this country. If ease of access were the determining factor, places like Illinois and California with grocery sales and Sunday sales and extensive opening hours wouldn't have seen drops, either. > > According to "Why We Buy" by Paco Underhill, 60% of purchases made are > decided on in the store. I am willing to make a special trip to a beer store > (distributor or specialty deli) just to get my imperial stout or marzen, but > my buying habits aren't the issue in the article. If you want to increase > sales, you have to put the commodity where shoppers will find it on impulse. True for basic retail theory. But, any sales are more complex, and for something like beer that is consumed not only as a product bought at a store, but also at the point of purchase, the rules start becoming a little different. Given the fact that PA is No. 1 or No. 2 in draft beer consumption, there's some circumstantial evidence that Pennsylvanians have simply shifted their consumption patterns as a result of the perceived scarcity of beer. > I could have added Harrisburg to Pgh and Philly. In any case, I'm not > advocating beer on every corner, especially since the beer would most likely > be macrobrews. All I wanted to say is that if you are going to write an > article about declining beer sales in the state, you should mention that the > liquor laws provide a disincentive to consumers. Only if that's actually true. _Steve |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
> wrote in message
et... > Steve Jackson wrote: > > That's just silly. Hating entire states because they allow beer sales in > > groceries? > > Oh, Jesus, you guys are really sensitive about this, huh? No. Apparently you stopped reading there, missing the next sentence: OK, so you're engaging in some hyperbole. > How's this- > "I really find it annoying to be vacationing in or traveling through > states where beer is sold in supermarkets. Often, I don't have time to > search out a gourmet grocery store (or there's none in the area) and I'm > left with one huge, brightly light aisle of national brands and common > imports and what local beers they may have often look old and > mishandled." (Granted, the same can be said for many- too many- liquor > stores in those other states). Funnily enough, people tend to find what they're used to as the "best" way to go about things. I find PA's system weird, because I'm not used to it. I'm sure if I lived there, I'd adapt in short order. I can certainly see the benefit of getting a beer you like at a pretty good price, since cases are typically cheaper than buying individual six-packs. I also think it would make it more difficult to try new beers, precisely because you have to commit to a whole case. At the same time, I've lived in states with grocery sales for the last 10 years or so. I'm used to it. It seems normal to me. I hardly think the fact that I'm used to it makes it "better." Just what I'm comfortable with. -Steve |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Steve Jackson wrote:
Steve Jackson wrote: > > wrote in message > t... > > >>OK, we've now covered 4 states other than PA > > > BTW, the poster you were responding to pointed out that Illinois and > Wisconsin allow sale of beer in groceries. > Yeah, that's where the "4" figure came from- I noted two states that don't allow beer sales in grocery stores, Joel mention two which do. I'm well aware that many states DO allow for grocery store sales- MY point was that the OP was way off to suggest that only PA doesn't. > I don't know the PA brewery history well at all. Yeungling, obviously, and > Latrobe. Who else? Pittsburgh, IIRC, and the Lion. Kinda depends on how far back one goes, of course (I'm thinking 1960's-up)- Straub, Stoney's (Jones), Horlacher, Reading, Neuweiler, Schmidt's, Ortlieb, Kaier's... > > >>Yeah, they did but their total also had 3 or 4 or 5 of the largest >>brewers (Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heileman), and thus not >>"independent" in the sense of regional and local brands. > > > Independent does not mean regional or local- I did not say Independent MEANT regional or local. "Independent" in this case, means NOT simply a branch of a larger chain of breweries. > And, at least in terms of judging the survival of breweries, what > difference should it make if they were big or small? Huh? Well, say we were talking about survivial of local and regional breweries in New York State. While Genesee struggles, Koch is gone and Matts seems to be doing OK, the Anhueser-Busch plant in Baldwinsville ISN'T part of the question since it's NOT a local or regional brewery, it is part of the A-B chain (i.e., not "independent"). > > Besides, until the 70s, Schlitz and Bud were really the only big national > brands. Miller to some degree as well. Yes, you've said that twice. Miller was a small company for a national UNTIL the purchase by Philip Morris. In 1967, for instance, they only sold 4.5 million barrels of beer, compared to A-B's 15.5 and 10 million by Pabst and Schlitz. Regional Coors and Schaefer actually out-brewed them with 4.6 and 4.8. I suppose it all depends on what a "big" national brand means to you. While there's no doubt that the top brewers of the 40's and 50's and 60's did not have anything close to the market share that A-B alone has today, in brewing, any brewer that had a chain of breweries that allowed for distribution (of at least one brand) over most of the country was considered a "national" brewer and included companies like Pabst, Schlitz, Falstaff, Carling and National. Heileman was always an unusual case in that, while they had a lot of breweries (many that were once part of the Associated chain) they distributed their beers more like a chain of "regional" breweries and never really attempted to have a 'national' brand (even after they picked up the brand of the merged Carling-National, which had a least one such brand, Carling Black Label [then well-past it's heyday, of course]). Heileman never bothered to penetrate the Northeast market, either. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Steve Jackson wrote:
> > wrote in message > Funnily enough, people tend to find what they're used to as the "best" way > to go about things. "People"- hey, you're implying beer aficionados are the same as "people" <g>? Actually, I think the average beer drinker/buyer LIKES grocery sales, since they're just buying a major brand (or, even better) getting their wife to buy it. But I was also thinking about this and do agree that specialty beer buyers tend to prefer what they're used to AND, in both our cases, we've used the best possible retailers (Shangy's or good NJ & Mass stores, in my case, Bierkraft Khan's Sam's & Hi-Time Wine, in yours). > I find PA's system weird, because I'm not used to it. Well, I'm in NJ, but have been traveling to PA for 20+ years to buy beer I couldn't get in NJ and/or at better prices. > I also think it would > make it more difficult to try new beers, precisely because you have to > commit to a whole case. Oh, no doubt. That's why all my reasons WHY I once liked PA's system AND, more to the point, why I think it was *A* reason for the survival of their local breweries were in the PAST tense. As I said, the beer market has changed and while I used to gladly "take a chance" on a local brand at $6 a case, I'm not so quick to take that same chance on a $30+ case of specialty beer. One finds quite a few of the PA micro's offering "sampler" cases, I take it for just that reason. > > At the same time, I've lived in states with grocery sales for the last 10 > years or so. I'm used to it. It seems normal to me. Yes, and as a local you generally "know where to go". Today, even when you move, the internet and the "beer media" allows you find good retailers fast (the same goes for me today when I travel to those states). > I hardly think the fact that I'm used to it makes it "better." Just what I'm > comfortable with. Did I say "better"? Uh, yeah, I might have <g> but I probably used SOME qualifier, like "generally". I was making a blanket statement that in the past, I used to find , for me, a better selection of beer EASIER in states that had liquor store/beer store sales than those with exclusive grocery store sales. I did, conveniently <g>, ignore all those times I pulled into a distributor in PA (the "drive-thru's" are often the worse, since they look at you weird when you walk in because you're "just browsing") with lousy selections and tons of dusty cases, bad liquor stores in NJ and Mass., etc. But I know that when I lived in New York State I always found a better selection in the little (or not so little) beer stores than in the large supermarket chains. Price was something else again- I used to have a NYS beer retailers license and I paid $5 a case for Utica Club from the distributor and the big chain in town (P&C, maybe?) sold it for 99 cents a sixpack as a lose leader.) |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
> wrote in message ... > Steve Jackson wrote: > >>OK, we've now covered 4 states other than PA > > > > > > BTW, the poster you were responding to pointed out that Illinois and > > Wisconsin allow sale of beer in groceries. > > > > Yeah, that's where the "4" figure came from- Ah. I got confused, thinking you meant that we'd covered four with no grocery sales. Or something. > Kinda depends on how far back one goes, of course (I'm thinking > 1960's-up)- Straub, Stoney's (Jones), Horlacher, Reading, Neuweiler, > Schmidt's, Ortlieb, Kaier's... Yeah, 1960s and later is a fair dividing line. And it looks like PA has a bit more than WI in raw numbers, but not by a huge margin. > > > > > > >>Yeah, they did but their total also had 3 or 4 or 5 of the largest > >>brewers (Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heileman), and thus not > >>"independent" in the sense of regional and local brands. > > > > > > Independent does not mean regional or local- > > I did not say Independent MEANT regional or local. "Independent" in > this case, means NOT simply a branch of a larger chain of breweries. Right. But, in Wisconsin's case, they weren't just branches of larger chains of breweries. Wisconsin was where these breweries were from. Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heilemann all originated in Wisconsin. I agree with your later point that you wouldn't include an A-B brewery that happened to be there, but the home breweries should be counted. You count St Lous for AB, but not Newark, for instance. > > Besides, until the 70s, Schlitz and Bud were really the only big national > > brands. Miller to some degree as well. > > Yes, you've said that twice. Responding to different posters, yes. > Miller was a small company for a national > UNTIL the purchase by Philip Morris. Don't recall when the purchase was, but it was Lite that propelled them into the No. 2 position. > In 1967, for instance, they only > sold 4.5 million barrels of beer, compared to A-B's 15.5 and 10 million > by Pabst and Schlitz. Regional Coors and Schaefer actually out-brewed > them with 4.6 and 4.8. > > I suppose it all depends on what a "big" national brand means to you. It's not so much the "big" issue, as that Pabst, Schlitz, etc. should be counted when tallying up how many Wisconsin breweries survived well past Prohibition. -Steve |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Steve Jackson wrote:
> > wrote in message >> >>I did not say Independent MEANT regional or local. "Independent" in >>this case, means NOT simply a branch of a larger chain of breweries. > > > Right. But, in Wisconsin's case, they weren't just branches of larger chains > of breweries. Wisconsin was where these breweries were from. Pabst, Schlitz, > Miller, Blatz and Heilemann all originated in Wisconsin. Yeah, well, I think at this point we're arguing semantics and it's my fault, really, more or less creating the term "independent" to mean "local and regional" breweries, when it wouldn't have been all that hard to type "PA. had more regional and local breweries than any other state". (And, PA had one more reason why it had so many regionals and locals and NO nationals- IIRC, there was a law that any brewery in PA. had to be locally owned. Brewery mythology claim that's what doomed Neuweiler, home of a lot of interesting beers and ales, in the late 60's. Again, IIRC the law was changed when either Schaefer built their new brewery outside of Allentown OR when Stroh purchased same.) In the pre-micro days, breweries were pretty much divided up as "local", "regional" and "national", so, in most cases brewers like Pabst, Schlitz et. al. would NOT be counted in the above PA. statement. One of the reasons those Milwaukee brewers BECAME national is just a matter of geography, of course, PA brewers like Schmidt and NYC area brewers like Ballantine, Rheingold and Schaefer could sell as much beer as regionals as a Milwaukee brewer could as a national just because the former were smack in the middle of the largest market. > > > Don't recall when the purchase was, Yeah, I'd forgotten, too. Just looked it up- 1969/1970- a lot further back than I'd thought. (There was also a rumor at some point that R.J. Reynolds was going to try to duplicate PM's Miller success by buying Schlitz). > but it was Lite that propelled them into > the No. 2 position. Uh-huh, but they couldn't have done that without PM's money, to buy Meister Brau but more importantly to advertise Lite. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Jeez, a whole thread on PA beer and I missed it while I was buried in
writing my latest book. It's GOOD to be done! Whatta we got here? "Tom Wolper" > wrote in message ink.net... > Todd Klondike wrote > > > > If going to the distributor is 'too much trouble', then you didn't > > want a beer very bad, now did you? Depends. Where I live now in PA, there are two beer distributors within five minutes' drive, the supermarkets are about the same distance. Where I used to live in PA, the supermarket was within five minutes' walk, and the closest beer distributor was 20 minutes' drive away and didn't stock worth a shit. > > Missing out on 'impulse buyers' hardly equals 'difficulty buying > > beer'. Not to hear the neo-prohibitionists tell it. One of their major aims is "limiting access." They see making buying alcohol less convenient as a major tool in driving down consumption. Of course, they also believe in higher taxes to cut consumption, and PA has 'em screwed the very few states (Wyoming, I think, and maybe Wisconsin) have lower beer taxes than we do. > The only reason beer distributors exist is because of the post-prohibition > liquor laws which were supposed to keep organized crime (made up of former > bootleggers) out of the alcohol market. You can buy a case only from a > distributor and they spend a lot of money lobbying the legislature to keep > it that way. NOT SO! The tavern owners spend a lot of money lobbying the legislature to keep it that way, because they don't want their lucrative high-markup six-pack business to get hurt. The Repeal-era beer laws that largely drive PA beer sales today were actually written BY the beer wholesalers and enacted by the legislation. At the time, wholesalers thought selling a whole case at a time sounded pretty good; less handling of the beer. > People on this list from Pennsylvania are from Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. > I assume that there really is a difficulty buying beer (especially good > beer) in other parts of the state. More so, but when you look at the number of people who can buy it with relative ease compared to the number of poor *******s out in the sticks, it's not so bad in sheer numbers. Tough for the guys in the sticks, though. -- Lew Bryson www.LewBryson.com Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both available at <www.amazon.com> The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it, or respond to it. Spam away. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
"Lew Bryson" > wrote in message ... > Jeez, a whole thread on PA beer and I missed it while I was buried in > writing my latest book. It's GOOD to be done! Whatta we got here? What is your new book? Tom |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
> "Lew Bryson" > wrote in message
> > Jeez, a whole thread on PA beer and I missed it while I was buried in > > writing my latest book. It's GOOD to be done! Whatta we got here? > > What is your new book? Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005. -- Lew Bryson www.LewBryson.com Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both available at <www.amazon.com> The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it, or respond to it. Spam away. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Lew Bryson > wrote:
>> "Lew Bryson" > wrote in message >> > Jeez, a whole thread on PA beer and I missed it while I was buried in >> > writing my latest book. It's GOOD to be done! Whatta we got here? >> >> What is your new book? > >Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland, >Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005. Sweet. Are you gonna pimp it at the AHA NHC in Baltimore? -- Joel Plutchak "I am myself, and if I have to hit my head against a plutchak at [...] brick wall to remain true to myself, I will do it.€ - Marlon Brando |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
"Joel" > wrote in message
... > Lew Bryson > wrote: > >Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland, > >Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005. > > Sweet. Are you gonna pimp it at the AHA NHC in Baltimore? Depends on whether the publisher actually gets it out on time: when's NHC? -- Lew Bryson www.LewBryson.com Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both available at <www.amazon.com> The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it, or respond to it. Spam away. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Lew Bryson > wrote:
>"Joel" > wrote in message ... >> Lew Bryson > wrote: >> >Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland, >> >Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005. >> >> Sweet. Are you gonna pimp it at the AHA NHC in Baltimore? > >Depends on whether the publisher actually gets it out on time: when's NHC? I'm sure somebody knows exactly, but in the past few years it's been around the third week of June. If I were a local organizer for the NHC, I'd personally want to have somebody give a talk about beer in the region. And if you have a book to sell, so much the better. After all, it seems to work for Ken Schramm. -- Joel Plutchak "I am myself, and if I have to hit my head against a plutchak at [...] brick wall to remain true to myself, I will do it.€ - Marlon Brando |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Lew Bryson > wrote:
>"Joel" > wrote in message ... >> Lew Bryson > wrote: >> >Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland, >> >Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005. >> >> Sweet. Are you gonna pimp it at the AHA NHC in Baltimore? > >Depends on whether the publisher actually gets it out on time: when's NHC? I'm sure somebody knows exactly, but in the past few years it's been around the third week of June. If I were a local organizer for the NHC, I'd personally want to have somebody give a talk about beer in the region. And if you have a book to sell, so much the better. After all, it seems to work for Ken Schramm. -- Joel Plutchak "I am myself, and if I have to hit my head against a plutchak at [...] brick wall to remain true to myself, I will do it.€ - Marlon Brando |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
"Joel" > wrote in message
... > I'm sure somebody knows exactly, but in the past few years > it's been around the third week of June. > If I were a local organizer for the NHC, I'd personally want > to have somebody give a talk about beer in the region. And if > you have a book to sell, so much the better. After all, it seems > to work for Ken Schramm. Sounds like a great tip, Joel, thanks. I'll check into it right away. -- Lew Bryson www.LewBryson.com Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both available at <www.amazon.com> The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it, or respond to it. Spam away. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
"Joel" > wrote in message
... > I'm sure somebody knows exactly, but in the past few years > it's been around the third week of June. > If I were a local organizer for the NHC, I'd personally want > to have somebody give a talk about beer in the region. And if > you have a book to sell, so much the better. After all, it seems > to work for Ken Schramm. Sounds like a great tip, Joel, thanks. I'll check into it right away. -- Lew Bryson www.LewBryson.com Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both available at <www.amazon.com> The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it, or respond to it. Spam away. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
Going back to an earlier discussion in this thread, I found this at
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_201508.html (and scroll down to Blair County) Opponents of a plan to sell beer at a Sheetz gas station packed a hearing before the state Liquor Control Board in Altoona. A Sheetz subsidiary applied earlier this year for a license to sell beer from its prototype superstore. Sheetz officials say pumps at the store will be on land controlled by a separate lease agreement from the rest of the store. Gas transactions will be handled at the pump only, because beer and gas cannot be sold at the same location under Pennsylvania law. The liquor board has 60 days to review testimony before issuing a ruling. At least 200 people, mostly those opposed to the sale of beer, filled a meeting room at a hotel in Altoona this week to protest. |
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Beer troubles in Pennsylvania
"Tom Wolper" > wrote in message
ink.net... > Going back to an earlier discussion in this thread, I found this at > http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_201508.html (and scroll down to > Blair County) > > Opponents of a plan to sell beer at a Sheetz gas station packed a hearing > before the state Liquor Control Board in Altoona. > > A Sheetz subsidiary applied earlier this year for a license to sell beer > from its prototype superstore. Sheetz officials say pumps at the store will > be on land controlled by a separate lease agreement from the rest of the > store. Gas transactions will be handled at the pump only, because beer and > gas cannot be sold at the same location under Pennsylvania law. > > The liquor board has 60 days to review testimony before issuing a ruling. At > least 200 people, mostly those opposed to the sale of beer, filled a meeting > room at a hotel in Altoona this week to protest. God help me, it is just flat-out embarrassing to live in Pennsylvania some days. -- Lew Bryson www.LewBryson.com Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both available at <www.amazon.com> The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it, or respond to it. Spam away. |
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