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TOM KAN PA
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

State beer sales going flat

Per capita drinking lowest since 1947

Monday, June 14, 2004
By Bill Toland, Post-Gazette Harrisburg Bureau



HARRISBURG -- All this depressing talk about Pittsburgh's impending tax
increases and another losing season for the Pirates is enough to drive a person
to drink.

Jay Goldstein would welcome such a move -- provided you crack open a beer
instead of mixing yourself one of those fancy, fruity cocktails.

Goldstein, president of the Pennsylvania Beer Wholesalers Association, says the
state's beer industry is flagging just as badly as the city treasury and the
hometown ballclub.

State beer tax revenues were down by 5 percent for calendar year 2003, the
biggest single-year drop since World War II. Through this year, beer tax
receipts are down by an additional 3 percent.

Translation: Per-capita annual consumption of beer and malt liquor among
drinking-age Pennsylvania residents is less than 23 gallons a person, the
lowest consumption rate since 1947. The slide, Goldstein said, started in
February 2003 and has been continuing monthly since then.

But is that a bad omen for local brewers and distributors? Or just a one-year,
blown-out-of-proportion anomaly, exaggerated by an above-average sales year in
2002?

Depends on whether your pint glass is half-full or half-empty. Goldstein says
that while the state has been relaxing liquor and wine laws to allow for Sunday
sales hours and a grocery store presence, laws governing beer distribution in
Pennsylvania remain too strict.

"All we can do is stand there and get pummeled and lose more business,"
Goldstein said, cursing the Legislature on one hand while crediting Jonathan
Newman, chairman of the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board, with reinvigorating
the staid spirits agency.

Goldstein, whose family owns beer outlets in Allentown, has his own motives for
highlighting the slumping sales. He's been lobbying the state to allow for the
sale of 12-packs at beer distributors, the theory being that a six-pack isn't
enough for a dinner party but a whole case is too much.

Demonstrating lower-than-usual sales could prompt rule changes at the
legislative level.

But Dick Yuengling, president of Pottsville's D.G. Yuengling & Son, said
Goldstein's sky-is-falling routine is one part truth, one part puffery.

"I think Pennsylvania had an off year," Yuengling said. "But it's just a blip.
It's happened before. We don't get excited -- we've been around for 125 years."

Either way, there's no denying that Pennsylvania beer-makers, as well as those
who distribute it, have spent the last few years fending off a confluence of
local and national trends:

A nationwide health kick, low-carb diets, took the beer industry by surprise.
Brand lines advertised as having low carbohydrate levels are gaining market
share, but the staying power of the Atkins low-carb diet could eventually have
a detrimental effect on overall beer sales.

The so-called baby-boomlet -- the sons and daughters of baby boomers -- are
exiting their prime beer-drinking years and approaching their 30s, an age when
many turn to more expensive wines and cocktails over beer and malt beverages.

Locally, the continuing decline in numbers of veterans clubs, social clubs
like the Elks and Eagles, and old mill bars means Pennsylvania is losing a
sliver of its reliable beer market each year.

And though his theory is unproven, Goldstein wonders if schools have
inadvertently bred a generation of kids, now drinking age, who prefer sweet
drinks to bitter ones. "When I was in school, you had a choice of milk from the
cafeteria or the water fountain," said Goldstein, in his 50s.

"Now, there's soda pop and fruit juice machines in every school," he said.
"We've developed a generation of wine and spirit drinkers," who prefer a Sea
Breeze to a Guinness.

That's a legitimate beef, reflected in the sales of "malternatives," those
sweet, fruity bottled drinks like Mike's Hard Lemonade. Popular since 2000,
such beverages initially didn't cut into overall beer sales because the drinks
were primarily produced by traditional brewers.

But now that hard liquor companies have gotten into the act -- Smirnoff Ice and
Jack Daniel's Original Hard Cola, for example -- brewers are feeling more of
the bite, even though those liquor-brand brews are still sold through beer
distributors, not liquor stores.

It all added up to a lousy year for beer in Pennsylvania, even as some of the
regional brewers are experiencing growing sales outside of the state.
Yuengling, for example, has been selling well regionally, especially since it
opened a second brewery in Tampa, Fla., five years ago and a third in St.
Clair, Pa., in 2001. Previously available in four states, Yuengling soon will
be sold in 10.

Even so, "I think certain markets are struggling," Dick Yuengling said.

That includes traditional beer strongholds, nationally and even worldwide. Last
year, beer sales in Germany were down about 5 percent from the year before, and
about 1 million fewer people visited the 2003 Munich beer festival, mostly
because Germans have become more health-conscious, according to a journal
called "World Drink Trends."

Meanwhile, Japan's major brewers took a major hit in 2003, with Sapporo's sales
dropping nearly 13 percent and brands Kirin and Suntory reporting declines of 7
percent, according to a recent report on the Japanese beer industry.

And in Britain, home to the smoky pub, beer consumption recently sank to a
30-year low, even as sales of wine shot up by nearly 9 percent and spirits
sales grew by 2 percent, according to a news report by the BBC.

Steve Kniley, spokesman for the Department of Revenue, acknowledged that
Pennsylvania beer sales have been flat for the last decade.

But viewed over a two-decade stretch, it's been a slow slide of small
decreases. From 1982 to 1990, Pennsylvania routinely took in more than $28
million in beer taxes, cresting at $28.9 million in 1990.

Over the last 10 years, the number has hovered between $25 million and $27
million.

Lately, Kniley calculated, "it seems to me it's been pretty stable. It's not
going up, but it's not going down a whole lot, either. ... They're drinking
about the same."

The slow slide in beer receipts stands in contrast to the great surge in liquor
and spirits sales in Pennsylvania. From 1994 to 2003, Pennsylvania's liquor tax
receipts have grown from $119 million to $193 million, according to the revenue
department.

The tax rates on both malt beverage and liquor have been the same for decades,
meaning the only variable is the amount sold. The malt beverage tax, commonly
called the beer excise tax, is 8 cents on the gallon, $2.48 on a barrel and
about a penny on the pint. The tax, in the end, is paid by the consumer, but
remitted by manufacturers, importers and distributors.

The liquor tax stands at a flat 18 percent.

Even though beer is taking a battering from liquor, many brewers say it's up to
the beer-makers, not the lawmakers, to adapt to changing consumer and health
trends. At Pittsburgh Brewing Co., the company's advertising campaign has for
about two years now been focusing on "more taste, less waist," and lately has
been touting I.C. Light's carbohydrate count compared to other light beers.

As a result, said Jeff Vavro, Pittsburgh Brewing Co.'s spokesman, I.C. Light
has seen increased sales for the last three years.


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Tom Wolper
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania


TOM KAN PA wrote...
> State beer sales going flat
>
> Per capita drinking lowest since 1947
>
> Monday, June 14, 2004
> By Bill Toland, Post-Gazette Harrisburg Bureau


What a joke. This reporter does all this research and comes to conclusions
that ignore the entire issue. And the issue, for those here who don't know
Pennsylvania liquor laws, is that state liquor laws were drawn up after
prohibition and haven't been overturned. You can't buy beer in a supermarket
or a convenience store. You can't even buy beer in a state/package/liquor
store. You can buy a case from a beer distributor, but not a bottle, six
pack, or twelve pack. You can buy a bottle or six pack from a bar or deli,
but not a case. Then if somebody proposes a plan to give Pennsylvania liquor
laws like every (actually almost every) other state, legislators from rural
areas make speeches about how any change in the law will turn the entire
population into alcoholics and the legislation gets shot down. Why didn't
any of this get mentioned in the article?

I'm not worried about the good beer market as I see more 15-30 tap bars
opening and it's become rare to go to a bar or restaurant that doesn't have
at least Sierra Nevada or Sam Adams. But if the businesses in the state are
worried about per capita beer consumption, then stop making it artificially
difficult to buy beer.

-Tom W


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TOM KAN PA
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

<< But if the businesses in the state are
worried about per capita beer consumption, then stop making it artificially
difficult to buy beer.>>
____Reply Separator_____
Amen to that!





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mary
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

I noticed in the article the person pushing selling beer by the 12 pack does
not suggest that beer be sold in supermarkets. That would increase sales on
impulse especially to women who most of the grocery shopping. An ad runs on
TV and the person shopping remembers it, but cannot buy the beer because it
is not sold in the supermarket. Too much trouble to go to the distributor.

Also it seems that small local bars, where people can pick up a six-pack are
being replaced by chain type places where I never see a cooler to grab a
six-pack.

Tom
> Uhhh...when's the last time you had difficulty buying beer in Pa?
>





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Joel
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Todd Klondike > wrote:
(TOM KAN PA) posted message
>><< But if the businesses in the state are
>>worried about per capita beer consumption, then stop making it artificially
>>difficult to buy beer.>>
>>
>>Amen to that!

>
>Uhhh...when's the last time you had difficulty buying beer in Pa?


Early May. Well, I had difficulty buying a *well-kept*
beer at Monks.
--
Joel Plutchak "Senza la birra tutto diventa orfano."
plutchak@[...] - Italian proverb (slightly revised)
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sleurB kciN
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Todd Klondike > wrote:
> "mary" > posted message
> >on Wed, 16 Jun 2004
> 21:24:50 -0400
>>I noticed in the article the person pushing selling beer by the 12 pack does
>>not suggest that beer be sold in supermarkets. That would increase sales on
>>impulse especially to women who most of the grocery shopping. An ad runs on
>>TV and the person shopping remembers it, but cannot buy the beer because it
>>is not sold in the supermarket. Too much trouble to go to the distributor.

>
> If going to the distributor is 'too much trouble', then you didn't
> want a beer very bad, now did you?


A Libertarian's paradise! (Oy!)

> Missing out on 'impulse buyers' hardly equals 'difficulty buying
> beer'.


I'd say 'not being able to buy your beer where you buy your meat'
does indeed equal 'difficulty buying beer.' Beer is food.
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
sleurB kciN
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Joel > wrote:
> Todd Klondike > wrote:

[...]
>>Uhhh...when's the last time you had difficulty buying beer in Pa?

>
> Early May. Well, I had difficulty buying a *well-kept*
> beer at Monks.


Sweet!
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Tom Wolper
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania


Todd Klondike wrote
>
> If going to the distributor is 'too much trouble', then you didn't
> want a beer very bad, now did you?
>
> Missing out on 'impulse buyers' hardly equals 'difficulty buying
> beer'.


The only reason beer distributors exist is because of the post-prohibition
liquor laws which were supposed to keep organized crime (made up of former
bootleggers) out of the alcohol market. You can buy a case only from a
distributor and they spend a lot of money lobbying the legislature to keep
it that way.

Missing out on impulse buying does indeed equal difficulty buying beer in a
competitive marketplace. People who are shopping for dinner parties or
barbeques want to buy their food and drink at the same store. Consumers are
limited in the time they want to spend shopping and an impulse sale lost is
money spent on other beverages. Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a radical
idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah).

You're right when you say that if going to a distributor is too much trouble
then I don't want a beer that badly. I drink a beer or two almost every day
but I feel that I really need a beer maybe once a month. That means most of
my beer puchases are impulse buys and that can be the difference between
keeping a business open and seeing it close.

People on this list from Pennsylvania are from Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.
I assume that there really is a difficulty buying beer (especially good
beer) in other parts of the state.

-Tom W


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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Tom Wolper wrote:

> Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a radical
> idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah).


Wow, you really ought to get out more. There are a LOT of states
without beer sales in supermarkets (and, generally, one can say that the
better beer selections exist in such states). New Jersey and
Massachusetts sell beer in liquor stores, for just two examples of
states with great beer selections without supermarket sales. In fact,
as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in supermarkets (old,
exposed to light and poor selections).

I've said it before (and, granted, it might be an outdated reason) but I
think a major reason Pennsylvania had more independent breweries left
(and no majors to speak of) than any other state in the pre-micro days
was your system of beer sales.



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Joel
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

> wrote:
>Tom Wolper wrote:
>> Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a radical
>> idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah).

>
>Wow, you really ought to get out more. There are a LOT of states
>without beer sales in supermarkets (and, generally, one can say that the
>better beer selections exist in such states).


Generally?! You need to get out more. Beer selection
in (for example) Wisconsin and Illinois is great, and both
states allow beer sales in grocery stores. (Wine too, and
at least in Illinois spirits as well.)

>In fact, as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in
>supermarkets (old, exposed to light and poor selections).


Beer is also sold in "liquor stores" in IL and WI, and
there's nothing special about those wrt the condition of
the beer. IOW that's a straw man argument.

>I've said it before (and, granted, it might be an outdated reason) but I
>think a major reason Pennsylvania had more independent breweries left
>(and no majors to speak of) than any other state in the pre-micro days
>was your system of beer sales.


Per capita? Wisconsin may have given PA a run for its
money. And gosh, both states have large population with
German ancestry. But that wouldn't have anything to do with
it.
--
Joel Plutchak "Senza la birra tutto diventa orfano."
plutchak@[...] - Italian proverb (slightly revised)
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Joel wrote:

> > wrote:
>
>>Tom Wolper wrote:
>>
>>> Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a radical
>>>idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah).

>>
>>Wow, you really ought to get out more. There are a LOT of states
>>without beer sales in supermarkets (and, generally, one can say that the
>>better beer selections exist in such states).

>
>
> Generally?!


Yeah, generally but I should have said "I" instead of "one" and so I'll
say "Generally, *I'LL* say that I find it EASIER to find good beer in
states with beer sales NOT exclusively in grocery stores".


You need to get out more.

Yup, who doesn't?

> Beer selection
> in (for example) Wisconsin and Illinois is great, and both
> states allow beer sales in grocery stores. (Wine too, and
> at least in Illinois spirits as well.)


OK, we've now covered 4 states other than PA (Utah's still up in the
air- drove thru it once but don't remember the beer situation). I still
say the guy's wrong that ONLY PA and Utah don't sell beer in grocery stores.

>>In fact, as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in
>>supermarkets (old, exposed to light and poor selections).

>
>
> Beer is also sold in "liquor stores" in IL and WI, and
> there's nothing special about those wrt the condition of
> the beer.


I can't figure out the typo "wrt" <g> BUT I'll make another "general"
statement. Beer sold in closed cases (as in PA) is generally going to
be better protected from light and easier to spot a date code on a case
than beer in open six packs on open refrigerated shelving as in a
grocery store.

>
>>I've said it before (and, granted, it might be an outdated reason) but I
>>think a major reason Pennsylvania had more independent breweries left
>>(and no majors to speak of) than any other state in the pre-micro days
>>was your system of beer sales.

>
>
> Per capita?


No, total number.

Wisconsin may have given PA a run for its
> money.


Yeah, they did but their total also had 3 or 4 or 5 of the largest
brewers (Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heileman), and thus not
"independent" in the sense of regional and local brands. PA's locals
also had a broader spectrum of beers (still brewed porters and ales).

And gosh, both states have large population with
> German ancestry. But that wouldn't have anything to do with
> it.


I didn't say "The reason", I said a "major reason" and I'd say the
German ancestry had a lot more effect in Wisconsin than in PA.

Here's the deal in PA- You had to buy a CASE at a time and you
usually wound up buying it in the same store in town. The 25 or 50 cent
different in a six pack price of Yeungling versus Bud thus looked a lot
different when it's $2 or more a case. And the real bargain was in
buying it in deposit bottles and since you bought your beer at the same
place, deposits didn't seem as much a hassle and the local beers all
came in 12 and especially 16 bottles at prices that Miller and A-B
couldn't compete with. Yeah, things are different these days, the beer
market, the state's breweries, etc. (I don't know, could Shangy's exist
anywhere else, though?) but it's NOT the only state without grocery
store sales.

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Joel
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Todd Klondike > wrote:
>sleurB kciN > posted message
>>> Missing out on 'impulse buyers' hardly equals 'difficulty buying
>>> beer'.

>>
>>I'd say 'not being able to buy your beer where you buy your meat'
>>does indeed equal 'difficulty buying beer.' Beer is food.

>
>So you're saying they should sell meat at the beer distributor?


Beer is food. Meat is not beer. Simple logic.
--
Joel Plutchak "Senza la birra tutto diventa orfano."
plutchak@[...] - Italian proverb (slightly revised)
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Tom Wolper
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania


wrote...

>
> OK, we've now covered 4 states other than PA (Utah's still up in the
> air- drove thru it once but don't remember the beer situation). I still
> say the guy's wrong that ONLY PA and Utah don't sell beer in grocery

stores.

I stand corrected. I do remember "banquet beer" at convenience stores in
Salt Lake City, though, which is something you don't see in Pennsylvania.

> >
> >>I've said it before (and, granted, it might be an outdated reason) but I
> >>think a major reason Pennsylvania had more independent breweries left
> >>(and no majors to speak of) than any other state in the pre-micro days
> >>was your system of beer sales.


There was some reason the nationals couldn't penetrate the market or at
least didn't try. When they did come in, that meant the end for a lot of
small brewers.

>
> Here's the deal in PA- You had to buy a CASE at a time and you
> usually wound up buying it in the same store in town. The 25 or 50 cent
> different in a six pack price of Yeungling versus Bud thus looked a lot
> different when it's $2 or more a case. And the real bargain was in
> buying it in deposit bottles and since you bought your beer at the same
> place, deposits didn't seem as much a hassle and the local beers all
> came in 12 and especially 16 bottles at prices that Miller and A-B
> couldn't compete with. Yeah, things are different these days, the beer
> market, the state's breweries, etc. (I don't know, could Shangy's exist
> anywhere else, though?) but it's NOT the only state without grocery
> store sales.
>


I want to go back to the article that started the thread. It said that per
capita beer sales are declining in Pennsylvania. With all the reasons given
in the article, it was never mentioned the possible effect liquor laws had
on sales. If one assumes that the wholesalers and distributors want to
reverse that decline then they should want beer to be made more available to
consumers and that wasn't even mentioned in the article.

-Tom W


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Tom Wolper
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania


Todd Klondike wrote...

> >Missing out on impulse buying does indeed equal difficulty buying beer in

a
> >competitive marketplace.

>
> Don't be silly. If you want beer, you go to where beer is sold.


Let's go back to the article that started this thread. It said that beer
sales are declining per capita in the state. I personally don't care that
they are, as long as I can find an imperial stout or marzen when I am in the
mood. The article isn't about good beer, though, it's about beer sales in
general. There was no mentin of market share for craft brews or imports but
I have a feeling (and if you can prove me wrong I will accept it) that the
decline is in macrobrews.
>
> >People who are shopping for dinner parties or
> >barbeques want to buy their food and drink at the same store. Consumers

are
> >limited in the time they want to spend shopping and an impulse sale lost

is
> >money spent on other beverages. Putting beer in supermarkets isn't a

radical
> >idea - at least 48 other states do it (I'm not sure about Utah).

>
> I'm sure your count is off. All you've done is try to make a case
> that it'd be more convenient if they sold beer on every corner. And
> it would. But that hardly equates with 'difficulty in buying beer'.


Again, back to the original article: beer sales are declining. I am saying
that they would go up if beer were more readily available which is obvious
and was ignored in the article.

According to "Why We Buy" by Paco Underhill, 60% of purchases made are
decided on in the store. I am willing to make a special trip to a beer store
(distributor or specialty deli) just to get my imperial stout or marzen, but
my buying habits aren't the issue in the article. If you want to increase
sales, you have to put the commodity where shoppers will find it on impulse.

> >
> >You're right when you say that if going to a distributor is too much

trouble
> >then I don't want a beer that badly. I drink a beer or two almost every

day
> >but I feel that I really need a beer maybe once a month. That means most

of
> >my beer puchases are impulse buys and that can be the difference between
> >keeping a business open and seeing it close.

>
> Nonsense, of course. A beer or two every day is not impulse, it's
> habit. Or, it could be addiction, but I'll be kind, as I apparently
> drink more than you.


I am past my heavy drinking days, at least the binge years. If I'm at a
restaurant or party and macrobrews are all that is available, then I have no
problem going without. I don't suffer cravings.

>
> >
> >People on this list from Pennsylvania are from Pittsburgh and

Philadelphia.
> >I assume that there really is a difficulty buying beer (especially good
> >beer) in other parts of the state.

>
> I live in a small town about an hour outside of Philly. I have no
> trouble buying beer. As much as I want. Since I am usually fast
> asleep before the bars close, I can buy beer whenever I want, too.
>
> Ya know what? I don't think having beer in the local minimarts is
> convenient enough. I think we should demand home delivery! And
> drive-through sixpack shops on every block.
>


I could have added Harrisburg to Pgh and Philly. In any case, I'm not
advocating beer on every corner, especially since the beer would most likely
be macrobrews. All I wanted to say is that if you are going to write an
article about declining beer sales in the state, you should mention that the
liquor laws provide a disincentive to consumers.

-Tom W




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Steve Jackson
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

> wrote in message
t...

> Wow, you really ought to get out more. There are a LOT of states
> without beer sales in supermarkets (and, generally, one can say that the
> better beer selections exist in such states). New Jersey and
> Massachusetts sell beer in liquor stores, for just two examples of
> states with great beer selections without supermarket sales. In fact,
> as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in supermarkets (old,
> exposed to light and poor selections).


That's just silly. Hating entire states because they allow beer sales in
groceries?

OK, so you're engaging in some hyperbole. But just because some stores don't
take great care of their beer doesn't mean all stores are like that. I've
seen plenty of (usually upscale) grocers that take good care of their beer,
and are excellent places to buy from.

Plus, allowing grocers to sell beer makes it easier for shops to combine
gourmet drinks (for lack of a better term) with gourmet foods (a la
Bierkraft in Brooklyn or Khan's in Indianapolis or Sam's in Chicago or
Hi-Time Wine in suburban LA). And those shops are a good thing

-Steve


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Steve Jackson
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

> wrote in message
t...

> OK, we've now covered 4 states other than PA (Utah's still up in the
> air- drove thru it once but don't remember the beer situation). I still
> say the guy's wrong that ONLY PA and Utah don't sell beer in grocery

stores.

He is. I know that Minnesota and Oklahoma also don't allow grocery sales of
beer and wine (well, they allow 3.2 beer, but that doesn't count).

BTW, the poster you were responding to pointed out that Illinois and
Wisconsin allow sale of beer in groceries.

> I can't figure out the typo "wrt" <g> BUT I'll make another "general"
> statement. Beer sold in closed cases (as in PA) is generally going to
> be better protected from light and easier to spot a date code on a case
> than beer in open six packs on open refrigerated shelving as in a
> grocery store.


Probably. OTOH, that beer often times has not been refrigerated, and who
knows how long it's been sitting in its case like that. You trade one
potential problem for another. It's a wash, IMO.

> >>I've said it before (and, granted, it might be an outdated reason) but I
> >>think a major reason Pennsylvania had more independent breweries left
> >>(and no majors to speak of) than any other state in the pre-micro days
> >>was your system of beer sales.

> >
> >
> > Per capita?

>
> No, total number.


Even then, it might be close. In Wisconsin, Leinenkugel, Schlitz, Pabst,
Miller an Steven's Point all survived as independent breweries into the 70s.
What eventually became Heliemann in LaCrosse, as well, although I don't
recall the history of that brewery off the top of my head.

I don't know the PA brewery history well at all. Yeungling, obviously, and
Latrobe. Who else? Pittsburgh, IIRC, and the Lion.

> Yeah, they did but their total also had 3 or 4 or 5 of the largest
> brewers (Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heileman), and thus not
> "independent" in the sense of regional and local brands.


Independent does not mean regional or local. It means free of other
ownership. And, at least in terms of judging the survival of breweries, what
difference should it make if they were big or small?

Besides, until the 70s, Schlitz and Bud were really the only big national
brands. Miller to some degree as well.

> Here's the deal in PA- You had to buy a CASE at a time and you
> usually wound up buying it in the same store in town. The 25 or 50 cent
> different in a six pack price of Yeungling versus Bud thus looked a lot
> different when it's $2 or more a case. And the real bargain was in
> buying it in deposit bottles and since you bought your beer at the same
> place, deposits didn't seem as much a hassle and the local beers all
> came in 12 and especially 16 bottles at prices that Miller and A-B
> couldn't compete with. Yeah, things are different these days, the beer
> market, the state's breweries, etc. (I don't know, could Shangy's exist
> anywhere else, though?) but it's NOT the only state without grocery
> store sales.


I've heard various theories about the effect PA's case law has had on beer
sales, and I've not seen a whole lot of empirical evidence to go along with
any of them. Of the prominent theories, I'm less willing to grant this one
than the one that credits the case law for the fact that PA enjoys either
the largest or second-largest per capita draft beer sales in the country.

-Steve


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Steve Jackson wrote:
> > wrote in message
> t...
>> In fact,
>>as a beer lover, I HATE states where beer is sold in supermarkets (old,
>>exposed to light and poor selections).

>
>
> That's just silly. Hating entire states because they allow beer sales in
> groceries?


Oh, Jesus, you guys are really sensitive about this, huh? How's this-
"I really find it annoying to be vacationing in or traveling through
states where beer is sold in supermarkets. Often, I don't have time to
search out a gourmet grocery store (or there's none in the area) and I'm
left with one huge, brightly light aisle of national brands and common
imports and what local beers they may have often look old and
mishandled." (Granted, the same can be said for many- too many- liquor
stores in those other states).

  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve Jackson
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

"Tom Wolper" > wrote in message
link.net...

> I stand corrected. I do remember "banquet beer" at convenience stores in
> Salt Lake City, though, which is something you don't see in Pennsylvania.


It's 3.2 beer. Utah is one of a handful of states that bars sales of beer
above 3.2 percent ABW in groceries and convenience stores. Minnesota and
Oklahoma do the same.

> There was some reason the nationals couldn't penetrate the market or at
> least didn't try. When they did come in, that meant the end for a lot of
> small brewers.


Part of the reason was that it wasn't until the 70s and 80s that there
really became a national beer market. Beer was still largely regional up
until that point, with some scattered national brands, mainly Schlitz and
Bud.

-Steve


  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve Jackson
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

"Tom Wolper" > wrote in message
ink.net...

> Again, back to the original article: beer sales are declining. I am saying
> that they would go up if beer were more readily available which is obvious
> and was ignored in the article.


And, other than hunch, what makes you confident in that? Just as I haven't
seen any empirical evidence to back the assertion that PA's case law and
distributor system helped more regional breweries survive, I haven't seen
any empirical evidence that easier accessibility would create more demand.

Plenty of states with "easy" access to beer have seen their consumption drop
over the last couple decades. Because, well, alcohol consumption has dropped
over the last couple decades in this country. If ease of access were the
determining factor, places like Illinois and California with grocery sales
and Sunday sales and extensive opening hours wouldn't have seen drops,
either.

>
> According to "Why We Buy" by Paco Underhill, 60% of purchases made are
> decided on in the store. I am willing to make a special trip to a beer

store
> (distributor or specialty deli) just to get my imperial stout or marzen,

but
> my buying habits aren't the issue in the article. If you want to increase
> sales, you have to put the commodity where shoppers will find it on

impulse.

True for basic retail theory. But, any sales are more complex, and for
something like beer that is consumed not only as a product bought at a
store, but also at the point of purchase, the rules start becoming a little
different. Given the fact that PA is No. 1 or No. 2 in draft beer
consumption, there's some circumstantial evidence that Pennsylvanians have
simply shifted their consumption patterns as a result of the perceived
scarcity of beer.

> I could have added Harrisburg to Pgh and Philly. In any case, I'm not
> advocating beer on every corner, especially since the beer would most

likely
> be macrobrews. All I wanted to say is that if you are going to write an
> article about declining beer sales in the state, you should mention that

the
> liquor laws provide a disincentive to consumers.


Only if that's actually true.

_Steve




  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve Jackson
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

> wrote in message
et...
> Steve Jackson wrote:


> > That's just silly. Hating entire states because they allow beer sales in
> > groceries?

>
> Oh, Jesus, you guys are really sensitive about this, huh?


No. Apparently you stopped reading there, missing the next sentence: OK, so
you're engaging in some hyperbole.

> How's this-
> "I really find it annoying to be vacationing in or traveling through
> states where beer is sold in supermarkets. Often, I don't have time to
> search out a gourmet grocery store (or there's none in the area) and I'm
> left with one huge, brightly light aisle of national brands and common
> imports and what local beers they may have often look old and
> mishandled." (Granted, the same can be said for many- too many- liquor
> stores in those other states).


Funnily enough, people tend to find what they're used to as the "best" way
to go about things. I find PA's system weird, because I'm not used to it.
I'm sure if I lived there, I'd adapt in short order. I can certainly see the
benefit of getting a beer you like at a pretty good price, since cases are
typically cheaper than buying individual six-packs. I also think it would
make it more difficult to try new beers, precisely because you have to
commit to a whole case.

At the same time, I've lived in states with grocery sales for the last 10
years or so. I'm used to it. It seems normal to me.

I hardly think the fact that I'm used to it makes it "better." Just what I'm
comfortable with.

-Steve


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Steve Jackson wrote:
Steve Jackson wrote:
> > wrote in message
> t...
>
>
>>OK, we've now covered 4 states other than PA

>
>
> BTW, the poster you were responding to pointed out that Illinois and
> Wisconsin allow sale of beer in groceries.
>


Yeah, that's where the "4" figure came from- I noted two states that
don't allow beer sales in grocery stores, Joel mention two which do.
I'm well aware that many states DO allow for grocery store sales- MY
point was that the OP was way off to suggest that only PA doesn't.


> I don't know the PA brewery history well at all. Yeungling, obviously, and
> Latrobe. Who else? Pittsburgh, IIRC, and the Lion.


Kinda depends on how far back one goes, of course (I'm thinking
1960's-up)- Straub, Stoney's (Jones), Horlacher, Reading, Neuweiler,
Schmidt's, Ortlieb, Kaier's...

>
>
>>Yeah, they did but their total also had 3 or 4 or 5 of the largest
>>brewers (Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heileman), and thus not
>>"independent" in the sense of regional and local brands.

>
>
> Independent does not mean regional or local-


I did not say Independent MEANT regional or local. "Independent" in
this case, means NOT simply a branch of a larger chain of breweries.

> And, at least in terms of judging the survival of breweries, what
> difference should it make if they were big or small?


Huh? Well, say we were talking about survivial of local and regional
breweries in New York State. While Genesee struggles, Koch is gone and
Matts seems to be doing OK, the Anhueser-Busch plant in Baldwinsville
ISN'T part of the question since it's NOT a local or regional brewery,
it is part of the A-B chain (i.e., not "independent").

>
> Besides, until the 70s, Schlitz and Bud were really the only big national
> brands. Miller to some degree as well.


Yes, you've said that twice. Miller was a small company for a national
UNTIL the purchase by Philip Morris. In 1967, for instance, they only
sold 4.5 million barrels of beer, compared to A-B's 15.5 and 10 million
by Pabst and Schlitz. Regional Coors and Schaefer actually out-brewed
them with 4.6 and 4.8.

I suppose it all depends on what a "big" national brand means to you.

While there's no doubt that the top brewers of the 40's and 50's and
60's did not have anything close to the market share that A-B alone has
today, in brewing, any brewer that had a chain of breweries that allowed
for distribution (of at least one brand) over most of the country was
considered a "national" brewer and included companies like Pabst,
Schlitz, Falstaff, Carling and National.

Heileman was always an unusual case in that, while they had a lot of
breweries (many that were once part of the Associated chain) they
distributed their beers more like a chain of "regional" breweries and
never really attempted to have a 'national' brand (even after they
picked up the brand of the merged Carling-National, which had a least
one such brand, Carling Black Label [then well-past it's heyday, of
course]). Heileman never bothered to penetrate the Northeast market,
either.

  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Steve Jackson wrote:

> > wrote in message


> Funnily enough, people tend to find what they're used to as the "best" way
> to go about things.


"People"- hey, you're implying beer aficionados are the same as "people"
<g>? Actually, I think the average beer drinker/buyer LIKES grocery
sales, since they're just buying a major brand (or, even better) getting
their wife to buy it.

But I was also thinking about this and do agree that specialty beer
buyers tend to prefer what they're used to AND, in both our cases, we've
used the best possible retailers (Shangy's or good NJ & Mass stores, in
my case, Bierkraft Khan's Sam's & Hi-Time Wine, in yours).

> I find PA's system weird, because I'm not used to it.


Well, I'm in NJ, but have been traveling to PA for 20+ years to buy beer
I couldn't get in NJ and/or at better prices.


> I also think it would
> make it more difficult to try new beers, precisely because you have to
> commit to a whole case.


Oh, no doubt. That's why all my reasons WHY I once liked PA's system
AND, more to the point, why I think it was *A* reason for the survival
of their local breweries were in the PAST tense. As I said, the beer
market has changed and while I used to gladly "take a chance" on a local
brand at $6 a case, I'm not so quick to take that same chance on a $30+
case of specialty beer. One finds quite a few of the PA micro's
offering "sampler" cases, I take it for just that reason.

>
> At the same time, I've lived in states with grocery sales for the last 10
> years or so. I'm used to it. It seems normal to me.


Yes, and as a local you generally "know where to go". Today, even when
you move, the internet and the "beer media" allows you find good
retailers fast (the same goes for me today when I travel to those states).

> I hardly think the fact that I'm used to it makes it "better." Just what I'm
> comfortable with.


Did I say "better"? Uh, yeah, I might have <g> but I probably used SOME
qualifier, like "generally". I was making a blanket statement that in
the past, I used to find , for me, a better selection of beer EASIER in
states that had liquor store/beer store sales than those with exclusive
grocery store sales. I did, conveniently <g>, ignore all those times I
pulled into a distributor in PA (the "drive-thru's" are often the worse,
since they look at you weird when you walk in because you're "just
browsing") with lousy selections and tons of dusty cases, bad liquor
stores in NJ and Mass., etc. But I know that when I lived in New York
State I always found a better selection in the little (or not so little)
beer stores than in the large supermarket chains. Price was something
else again- I used to have a NYS beer retailers license and I paid $5 a
case for Utica Club from the distributor and the big chain in town (P&C,
maybe?) sold it for 99 cents a sixpack as a lose leader.)

  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve Jackson
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania


> wrote in message
...
> Steve Jackson wrote:
> >>OK, we've now covered 4 states other than PA

> >
> >
> > BTW, the poster you were responding to pointed out that Illinois and
> > Wisconsin allow sale of beer in groceries.
> >

>
> Yeah, that's where the "4" figure came from-


Ah. I got confused, thinking you meant that we'd covered four with no
grocery sales. Or something.

> Kinda depends on how far back one goes, of course (I'm thinking
> 1960's-up)- Straub, Stoney's (Jones), Horlacher, Reading, Neuweiler,
> Schmidt's, Ortlieb, Kaier's...


Yeah, 1960s and later is a fair dividing line. And it looks like PA has a
bit more than WI in raw numbers, but not by a huge margin.

>
> >
> >
> >>Yeah, they did but their total also had 3 or 4 or 5 of the largest
> >>brewers (Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heileman), and thus not
> >>"independent" in the sense of regional and local brands.

> >
> >
> > Independent does not mean regional or local-

>
> I did not say Independent MEANT regional or local. "Independent" in
> this case, means NOT simply a branch of a larger chain of breweries.


Right. But, in Wisconsin's case, they weren't just branches of larger chains
of breweries. Wisconsin was where these breweries were from. Pabst, Schlitz,
Miller, Blatz and Heilemann all originated in Wisconsin. I agree with your
later point that you wouldn't include an A-B brewery that happened to be
there, but the home breweries should be counted. You count St Lous for AB,
but not Newark, for instance.

> > Besides, until the 70s, Schlitz and Bud were really the only big

national
> > brands. Miller to some degree as well.

>
> Yes, you've said that twice.


Responding to different posters, yes.

> Miller was a small company for a national
> UNTIL the purchase by Philip Morris.


Don't recall when the purchase was, but it was Lite that propelled them into
the No. 2 position.

> In 1967, for instance, they only
> sold 4.5 million barrels of beer, compared to A-B's 15.5 and 10 million
> by Pabst and Schlitz. Regional Coors and Schaefer actually out-brewed
> them with 4.6 and 4.8.
>
> I suppose it all depends on what a "big" national brand means to you.


It's not so much the "big" issue, as that Pabst, Schlitz, etc. should be
counted when tallying up how many Wisconsin breweries survived well past
Prohibition.

-Steve




  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Steve Jackson wrote:
> > wrote in message


>>
>>I did not say Independent MEANT regional or local. "Independent" in
>>this case, means NOT simply a branch of a larger chain of breweries.

>
>
> Right. But, in Wisconsin's case, they weren't just branches of larger chains
> of breweries. Wisconsin was where these breweries were from. Pabst, Schlitz,
> Miller, Blatz and Heilemann all originated in Wisconsin.


Yeah, well, I think at this point we're arguing semantics and it's my
fault, really, more or less creating the term "independent" to mean
"local and regional" breweries, when it wouldn't have been all that hard
to type "PA. had more regional and local breweries than any other
state". (And, PA had one more reason why it had so many regionals and
locals and NO nationals- IIRC, there was a law that any brewery in PA.
had to be locally owned. Brewery mythology claim that's what doomed
Neuweiler, home of a lot of interesting beers and ales, in the late
60's. Again, IIRC the law was changed when either Schaefer built their
new brewery outside of Allentown OR when Stroh purchased same.)

In the pre-micro days, breweries were pretty much divided up as "local",
"regional" and "national", so, in most cases brewers like Pabst, Schlitz
et. al. would NOT be counted in the above PA. statement. One of the
reasons those Milwaukee brewers BECAME national is just a matter of
geography, of course, PA brewers like Schmidt and NYC area brewers like
Ballantine, Rheingold and Schaefer could sell as much beer as regionals
as a Milwaukee brewer could as a national just because the former were
smack in the middle of the largest market.

>
>
> Don't recall when the purchase was,


Yeah, I'd forgotten, too. Just looked it up- 1969/1970- a lot further
back than I'd thought. (There was also a rumor at some point that R.J.
Reynolds was going to try to duplicate PM's Miller success by buying
Schlitz).

> but it was Lite that propelled them into
> the No. 2 position.


Uh-huh, but they couldn't have done that without PM's money, to buy
Meister Brau but more importantly to advertise Lite.

  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lew Bryson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Jeez, a whole thread on PA beer and I missed it while I was buried in
writing my latest book. It's GOOD to be done! Whatta we got here?

"Tom Wolper" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Todd Klondike wrote
> >
> > If going to the distributor is 'too much trouble', then you didn't
> > want a beer very bad, now did you?


Depends. Where I live now in PA, there are two beer distributors within five
minutes' drive, the supermarkets are about the same distance. Where I used
to live in PA, the supermarket was within five minutes' walk, and the
closest beer distributor was 20 minutes' drive away and didn't stock worth a
shit.

> > Missing out on 'impulse buyers' hardly equals 'difficulty buying
> > beer'.


Not to hear the neo-prohibitionists tell it. One of their major aims is
"limiting access." They see making buying alcohol less convenient as a major
tool in driving down consumption.
Of course, they also believe in higher taxes to cut consumption, and PA has
'em screwed the very few states (Wyoming, I think, and maybe Wisconsin)
have lower beer taxes than we do.

> The only reason beer distributors exist is because of the post-prohibition
> liquor laws which were supposed to keep organized crime (made up of former
> bootleggers) out of the alcohol market. You can buy a case only from a
> distributor and they spend a lot of money lobbying the legislature to keep
> it that way.


NOT SO! The tavern owners spend a lot of money lobbying the legislature to
keep it that way, because they don't want their lucrative high-markup
six-pack business to get hurt. The Repeal-era beer laws that largely drive
PA beer sales today were actually written BY the beer wholesalers and
enacted by the legislation. At the time, wholesalers thought selling a whole
case at a time sounded pretty good; less handling of the beer.

> People on this list from Pennsylvania are from Pittsburgh and

Philadelphia.
> I assume that there really is a difficulty buying beer (especially good
> beer) in other parts of the state.


More so, but when you look at the number of people who can buy it with
relative ease compared to the number of poor *******s out in the sticks,
it's not so bad in sheer numbers. Tough for the guys in the sticks, though.

--
Lew Bryson

www.LewBryson.com
Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both
available at <www.amazon.com>
The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it,
or respond to it. Spam away.


  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
mary
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania


"Lew Bryson" > wrote in message
...
> Jeez, a whole thread on PA beer and I missed it while I was buried in
> writing my latest book. It's GOOD to be done! Whatta we got here?



What is your new book?

Tom


  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lew Bryson
 
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> "Lew Bryson" > wrote in message
> > Jeez, a whole thread on PA beer and I missed it while I was buried in
> > writing my latest book. It's GOOD to be done! Whatta we got here?

>
> What is your new book?


Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland,
Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005.

--
Lew Bryson

www.LewBryson.com
Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both
available at <www.amazon.com>
The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it,
or respond to it. Spam away.


  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joel
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Lew Bryson > wrote:
>> "Lew Bryson" > wrote in message
>> > Jeez, a whole thread on PA beer and I missed it while I was buried in
>> > writing my latest book. It's GOOD to be done! Whatta we got here?

>>
>> What is your new book?

>
>Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland,
>Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005.


Sweet. Are you gonna pimp it at the AHA NHC in Baltimore?
--
Joel Plutchak "I am myself, and if I have to hit my head against a
plutchak at [...] brick wall to remain true to myself, I will do it.€
- Marlon Brando


  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lew Bryson
 
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"Joel" > wrote in message
...
> Lew Bryson > wrote:
> >Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland,
> >Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005.

>
> Sweet. Are you gonna pimp it at the AHA NHC in Baltimore?


Depends on whether the publisher actually gets it out on time: when's NHC?

--
Lew Bryson

www.LewBryson.com
Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both
available at <www.amazon.com>
The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it,
or respond to it. Spam away.


  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joel
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Lew Bryson > wrote:
>"Joel" > wrote in message
...
>> Lew Bryson > wrote:
>> >Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland,
>> >Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005.

>>
>> Sweet. Are you gonna pimp it at the AHA NHC in Baltimore?

>
>Depends on whether the publisher actually gets it out on time: when's NHC?


I'm sure somebody knows exactly, but in the past few years
it's been around the third week of June.
If I were a local organizer for the NHC, I'd personally want
to have somebody give a talk about beer in the region. And if
you have a book to sell, so much the better. After all, it seems
to work for Ken Schramm.
--
Joel Plutchak "I am myself, and if I have to hit my head against a
plutchak at [...] brick wall to remain true to myself, I will do it.€
- Marlon Brando
  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joel
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Lew Bryson > wrote:
>"Joel" > wrote in message
...
>> Lew Bryson > wrote:
>> >Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland,
>> >Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005.

>>
>> Sweet. Are you gonna pimp it at the AHA NHC in Baltimore?

>
>Depends on whether the publisher actually gets it out on time: when's NHC?


I'm sure somebody knows exactly, but in the past few years
it's been around the third week of June.
If I were a local organizer for the NHC, I'd personally want
to have somebody give a talk about beer in the region. And if
you have a book to sell, so much the better. After all, it seems
to work for Ken Schramm.
--
Joel Plutchak "I am myself, and if I have to hit my head against a
plutchak at [...] brick wall to remain true to myself, I will do it.€
- Marlon Brando
  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lew Bryson
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

"Joel" > wrote in message
...
> I'm sure somebody knows exactly, but in the past few years
> it's been around the third week of June.
> If I were a local organizer for the NHC, I'd personally want
> to have somebody give a talk about beer in the region. And if
> you have a book to sell, so much the better. After all, it seems
> to work for Ken Schramm.


Sounds like a great tip, Joel, thanks. I'll check into it right away.

--
Lew Bryson

www.LewBryson.com
Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both
available at <www.amazon.com>
The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it,
or respond to it. Spam away.


  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lew Bryson
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

"Joel" > wrote in message
...
> I'm sure somebody knows exactly, but in the past few years
> it's been around the third week of June.
> If I were a local organizer for the NHC, I'd personally want
> to have somebody give a talk about beer in the region. And if
> you have a book to sell, so much the better. After all, it seems
> to work for Ken Schramm.


Sounds like a great tip, Joel, thanks. I'll check into it right away.

--
Lew Bryson

www.LewBryson.com
Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both
available at <www.amazon.com>
The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it,
or respond to it. Spam away.




  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom Wolper
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

Going back to an earlier discussion in this thread, I found this at

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_201508.html (and scroll down to
Blair County)

Opponents of a plan to sell beer at a Sheetz gas station packed a hearing
before the state Liquor Control Board in Altoona.

A Sheetz subsidiary applied earlier this year for a license to sell beer
from its prototype superstore. Sheetz officials say pumps at the store will
be on land controlled by a separate lease agreement from the rest of the
store. Gas transactions will be handled at the pump only, because beer and
gas cannot be sold at the same location under Pennsylvania law.

The liquor board has 60 days to review testimony before issuing a ruling. At
least 200 people, mostly those opposed to the sale of beer, filled a meeting
room at a hotel in Altoona this week to protest.


  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lew Bryson
 
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Default Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

"Tom Wolper" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Going back to an earlier discussion in this thread, I found this at
> http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_201508.html (and scroll down to
> Blair County)
>
> Opponents of a plan to sell beer at a Sheetz gas station packed a hearing
> before the state Liquor Control Board in Altoona.
>
> A Sheetz subsidiary applied earlier this year for a license to sell beer
> from its prototype superstore. Sheetz officials say pumps at the store

will
> be on land controlled by a separate lease agreement from the rest of the
> store. Gas transactions will be handled at the pump only, because beer and
> gas cannot be sold at the same location under Pennsylvania law.
>
> The liquor board has 60 days to review testimony before issuing a ruling.

At
> least 200 people, mostly those opposed to the sale of beer, filled a

meeting
> room at a hotel in Altoona this week to protest.


God help me, it is just flat-out embarrassing to live in Pennsylvania some
days.

--
Lew Bryson

www.LewBryson.com
Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both
available at <www.amazon.com>
The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it,
or respond to it. Spam away.


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