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Barbecue (alt.food.barbecue) Discuss barbecue and grilling--southern style "low and slow" smoking of ribs, shoulders and briskets, as well as direct heat grilling of everything from burgers to salmon to vegetables. |
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Propane Stoves Indoors
Hello all.
Like a lot of folks, we were without power for over a week in the wake of Katrina. We found ourselves doing a lot of our cooking on the 'kettle outdoors until the power was restored. Many of the camping,tool, and RV suppliers sell single,dual, and three burner cast iron propane stoves that would look ideal to use indoors during a power outage with a 20 lb propane tank. All of these carry safety warnings not to be used indoors or a closed environment due to carbon monoxide poisoning. What gives here? I cooked for years using propane on a gas range until natural gas was available without as much as a fume hood. I noticed the same warnings on other propane products such as lanterns and camp stoves, and grills. I can understand the possible liability/safety issue with using outdoor propane products indoors, but what's this issue with CO poisoning? DFS |
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DFS wrote:
"...what's this issue with CO poisoning?" Outdoor cookers carry a much higher BTU rating than indoor range burners. You can boil 25 gallons of water on one in less than twenty minutes. I have a brew pub in my house that runs on propane. It is a half-barrel system. The fans require a very high CFM rating to keep us all alive. It is VERY DANGEROUS to even risk running an outdoor cooker indoors. When we first set up our system, I put carbon monoxide detectors in the house and tried running the brewery without ventilation. Every detector went off in less than a minute. Cook under the stars. It's prettier - and safer - that way. |
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The cast iron stoves that I'm looking at are running about 15k btu/burner. I
found the manual from my old GE gas range that I owned several years ago. The specs are about the same as the two larger, rear burners with the other two smaller burners about 9k. It doesn't appear that these little stoves are much more powerful then a typical home rangetop. I would think that if the stove's jets are adjusted to a completely burn the gas at a blue flame, there should be negligible CO emitted. Here's a link to the type of stove that I'm looking at. http://www.harborfreight.com/ Item#44894 Dave "Jon Judson" > wrote in message news:4_kTe.15769$aG.13216@trndny01... > DFS wrote: > > "...what's this issue with CO poisoning?" > > Outdoor cookers carry a much higher BTU rating than indoor range burners. > You can boil 25 gallons of water on one in less than twenty minutes. I > have a brew pub in my house that runs on propane. It is a half-barrel > system. The fans require a very high CFM rating to keep us all alive. > > It is VERY DANGEROUS to even risk running an outdoor cooker indoors. When > we first set up our system, I put carbon monoxide detectors in the house > and tried running the brewery without ventilation. Every detector went > off in less than a minute. > > Cook under the stars. It's prettier - and safer - that way. > |
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DFS wrote:
"The cast iron stoves that I'm looking at are running about 15k btu/burner." 15K is pretty low for an outdoor cooker. Most outdoor burners run between 100,000 and 300,000 BTUs. Outdoor propane cookers tend to have larger burners because folks like to use them for turkey fryers, crab pots, industrial-sized meals, and cooking in a brisk wind (hurricane). You're not going to get a 15 gallon pot to boil anytime in the next two days on a 15K burner. I'm not going to be the one to give you a stamp of approval to use it indoors, but I would use a CO detector in the vicinity if you are. |
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BTW, that particular burner you are looking at looks like it uses a jet
burner rather than a ring burner, but it's hard to tell from the picture. Ring burners tend to be lower BTU. Jet burners usually start in the 170,000 BTU range. I don't see any BTU specs on that page. |
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"DFS" > wrote in message > All of these carry safety warnings not to be used indoors or a closed > environment due to carbon monoxide poisoning. What gives here? I cooked > for years using propane on a gas range until natural gas was available > without as much as a fume hood. I noticed the same warnings on other > propane products such as lanterns and camp stoves, and grills. I can > understand the possible liability/safety issue with using outdoor propane > products indoors, but what's this issue with CO poisoning? Could be an efficiency thing. I've been cooking with a propane range for about 20 years now and the CO detector never went off even with 4 burners and the oven going. Never shows anything from it. Perhaps grills do not meet the same standards for some reason. |
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A brew pub operator and a BBQ guy! Are you anywhere near NJ? Although I
haven't brewed in a while, I have the same bad habits! Tom in Howell, NJ "Jon Judson" > wrote in message news:4_kTe.15769$aG.13216@trndny01... > DFS wrote: > > "...what's this issue with CO poisoning?" > > Outdoor cookers carry a much higher BTU rating than indoor range burners. > You can boil 25 gallons of water on one in less than twenty minutes. I > have a brew pub in my house that runs on propane. It is a half-barrel > system. The fans require a very high CFM rating to keep us all alive. > > It is VERY DANGEROUS to even risk running an outdoor cooker indoors. When > we first set up our system, I put carbon monoxide detectors in the house > and tried running the brewery without ventilation. Every detector went > off in less than a minute. > > Cook under the stars. It's prettier - and safer - that way. > |
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Tom Puskar wrote:
"Are you anywhere near NJ?" I'm in South Jersey. I've gone a bit overboard here with more than a few of my hobbies. At any one time we have four beers on tap. Right now, I have a pale ale, an Irish red ale, a Czech Pilsener, and my own version of a Guiness stout (on nitro). I don't mind tooting my own horn. I've been at this awhile. I make a damn good beer, and some damn good ribs to go along with it. A couple of years ago, we put in a home theater. With BBQ, beer, and a big screen -- every football and hockey game is now at our house. My wife has learned to roll her eyes and go with the flow. Some day I'd like to open a BBQ brewpub -- with live blues music (another hobbie, I play blues guitar and blues harp). ....We'll see... |
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> Could be an efficiency thing. I've been cooking with a propane range > for about 20 years now and the CO detector never went off even with 4 > burners and the oven going. Never shows anything from it. Perhaps > grills do not meet the same standards for some reason. I would just park the grill near the kitchen door. -- Dave Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que http://davebbq.com/ |
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I vent my natural gas dryer into the house in the winter (through a screen
filter.) I have a CO monitor next to it and there is no problem. I'd say to be on the safe side, do it on the patio next to the kitchen door like Dave said. Spud -- |
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> Dave > Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que > http://davebbq.com/ > Hey Dave, Nice web pages. Flows real well. Your prices are cheap! Smoke ring claim - you using straight wood or gas and wood? Hope it's doing well. Regards, Spud |
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Spud wrote:
> Hey Dave, > Hope it's doing well. Thanks, Spud. Up until the end of May, things were pushing past what we had set as our financial goals. Since then, we've been battling a huge increase to our cost of goods over the last three months, especially with the cost of gasoline and diesel. It has been pushing the cost of everything through the roof. And the bad news is, many of our customers eat here less frequently due to the way the cost-of-living is affecting them. And we haven't even seen the impact of Katrina yet. We are going to be forced to do a dramatic rise to our menu prices within the next week. We just can't afford not to any longer. I am hoping we won't see any more of a decrease to our customer flow, but I think it is going to hurt us a lot. Things aren't looking good. -- Dave Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que http://davebbq.com/ |
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Dave Bugg wrote:
> > Thanks, Spud. Up until the end of May, things were pushing past what we had > set as our financial goals. Since then, we've been battling a huge increase > to our cost of goods over the last three months, especially with the cost of > gasoline and diesel. It has been pushing the cost of everything through the > roof. And the bad news is, many of our customers eat here less frequently > due to the way the cost-of-living is affecting them. And we haven't even > seen the impact of Katrina yet. > > We are going to be forced to do a dramatic rise to our menu prices within > the next week. We just can't afford not to any longer. I am hoping we won't > see any more of a decrease to our customer flow, but I think it is going to > hurt us a lot. Things aren't looking good. Sorry to hear this. I hope that things get better for you and soon. It's tough when you have to raise prices even tho you know it might impact on the number of meals sold. Hang in there, man. Kevin |
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On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 02:06:06 GMT, "Jon Judson"
> wrote: >Tom Puskar wrote: > >"Are you anywhere near NJ?" > >I'm in South Jersey. I've gone a bit overboard here with more than a few of >my hobbies. At any one time we have four beers on tap. Right now, I have a >pale ale, an Irish red ale, a Czech Pilsener, and my own version of a >Guiness stout (on nitro). I don't mind tooting my own horn. I've been at >this awhile. I make a damn good beer, and some damn good ribs to go along >with it. > >A couple of years ago, we put in a home theater. With BBQ, beer, and a big >screen -- every football and hockey game is now at our house. My wife has >learned to roll her eyes and go with the flow. > >Some day I'd like to open a BBQ brewpub -- with live blues music (another >hobbie, I play blues guitar and blues harp). > >...We'll see... > Wow, that's almost enough incentive to move back East again so that I could snag invites to that kind of a gig. Harry Who's good on ribs and crafting wine - but, alas - no musical skills or home theatre . . . Harry |
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"Dave Bugg" > wrote in message > > Thanks, Spud. Up until the end of May, things were pushing past what we > had set as our financial goals. Since then, we've been battling a huge > increase to our cost of goods over the last three months, especially with > the cost of gasoline and diesel. It has been pushing the cost of > everything through the roof. And the bad news is, many of our customers > eat here less frequently due to the way the cost-of-living is affecting > them. And we haven't even seen the impact of Katrina yet. This has to be tough for anyone in retail, food, travel industries. My heating bill will be $50 a month more than last year (I'm locked in price wise, fortunately) I changed vacation plans though, and will not make the trip to Canada and buy all that gas along the way. This will affect a few motel owners and restaurant owners that would have made a couple of dollars. The extra money I'm spending on fuel and heating has to come from cutting back in other areas. Some of that will be the occasional meal out. |
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Dave Bugg wrote:
> Spud wrote: > > >>Hey Dave, > > >>Hope it's doing well. > > > Thanks, Spud. Up until the end of May, things were pushing past what we had > set as our financial goals. Since then, we've been battling a huge increase > to our cost of goods over the last three months, especially with the cost of > gasoline and diesel. It has been pushing the cost of everything through the > roof. And the bad news is, many of our customers eat here less frequently > due to the way the cost-of-living is affecting them. And we haven't even > seen the impact of Katrina yet. > > We are going to be forced to do a dramatic rise to our menu prices within > the next week. We just can't afford not to any longer. I am hoping we won't > see any more of a decrease to our customer flow, but I think it is going to > hurt us a lot. Things aren't looking good. I'm sorry to hear that. It's always a tough choice for the restaurant owner when prices have to be raised. The alternatives are smaller portions (which doesn't really help the bottom line very much) and/or a reduction in quality. You know your market far better than I ever could, but my opinion is: When given the choice between a higher price and lower quality, I'd rather keep the quality and pay the price. I've always thought your prices were very low. I hope you can train your customers to accept paying a bit more for great quality. Personally, I stop going to places that sacrifice quality for price. but that's just me. You should do what you think your market can accept. Good luck, -- Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game You can't win You can't break even You can't get out of the game |
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Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> I'm sorry to hear that. Put me in your KF, Matthew, 'cause I ain't your friend, and I spit on your wishes -- well or otherwise. |
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> The extra money I'm spending on fuel and heating has to come from > cutting back in other areas. Some of that will be the occasional > meal out. Yeah, I'm certain it will play out that way for our customers. They are very loyal, but something has to get cut in family budgets. And of course they way to make up for a fall-off of repeat customers is to increase new customer growth. But that has been tough for us to do. We are able to capture data of customer visits with our point-of-sale system. We currently see roughly 93% of our customers return. They re-visit us an average of once every 3.25 weeks. Of course that means I'll see some customers once every week, and others maybe once a quarter. But we don't lose 'em once we have them. Our problem is increasing the number of daily new customer visits. Those of you that have been to the store know how far out of the way it is from the main traffic flow in Wenatchee. I thought that we could make up for our location by word-of-mouth along with heavy advertising. To date (11.5 months) we have spent over $19K in various advertising media. There have been results, but it has been anemic. We had 20K allocated for our ad budget for the first year. Next year, we will be relying on other methods of getting the word out, and spending a lot less on formal advertising. If I had it to do again, I would have tried to raise more capital so that we could've built closer to the main traffic lanes. I was wrongly convinced that a smaller community would be quick to find out about us in a more out-of-the-way location. So, the challenge continues. |
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"Dave Bugg" > wrote:
> [ . . . ] > If I had it to do again, I would have tried to raise more capital so that > we could've built closer to the main traffic lanes. I was wrongly > convinced that a smaller community would be quick to find out about us in > a more out-of-the-way location. So, the challenge continues. My wife did the same thing. Fortunately, we were able to sell the place after 3 years and get enough to buy a 7 acre farm and build a 2 bedroom house in Thailand. If it wasn't for my small pension and Social Security (that I paid into for 51 years, since 1947), I'd be a dead man. I continue to wish great success for you, Dave! -- Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and their families: http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ! |
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On 7-Sep-2005, "Matthew L. Martin" > wrote: > Dave Bugg wrote: > > Spud wrote: > > > > > >>Hey Dave, > > > > > >>Hope it's doing well. > > > > > > Thanks, Spud. Up until the end of May, things were pushing past what we had > > set as our financial goals. Since then, we've been battling a huge increase > > to our cost of goods over the last three months, especially with the cost of > > gasoline and diesel. It has been pushing the cost of everything through the > > roof. And the bad news is, many of our customers eat here less frequently > > due to the way the cost-of-living is affecting them. And we haven't even > > seen the impact of Katrina yet. > > > > We are going to be forced to do a dramatic rise to our menu prices within > > the next week. We just can't afford not to any longer. I am hoping we won't > > see any more of a decrease to our customer flow, but I think it is going to > > hurt us a lot. Things aren't looking good. > > I'm sorry to hear that. It's always a tough choice for the restaurant > owner when prices have to be raised. The alternatives are smaller > portions (which doesn't really help the bottom line very much) and/or a > reduction in quality. > > You know your market far better than I ever could, but my opinion is: > > When given the choice between a higher price and lower quality, I'd > rather keep the quality and pay the price. I've always thought your > prices were very low. I hope you can train your customers to accept > paying a bit more for great quality. > > Personally, I stop going to places that sacrifice quality for price. but > that's just me. You should do what you think your market can accept. > > Good luck, > > -- > Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game > You can't win > You can't break even > You can't get out of the game Considering cost/quality/profit, two situations come to mind. Bother occurred in Boulder, CO. One was a Pizza Hut and the other a downtown cafe called the "Aristocrat". The Pizza Hut was a longtime favorite lunch hangout for the mini-silicon valley yuppies. It fell into decline when it started cutting corners on quality and quantity. Business dropped to zip and they closed their doors. The elderly "old country" Greek owners of the Aristocrat cafe retired and turned the business over to some young relative. The young college trained bean counter mentality kicked in and business went straight into the shitter. The first thing that went was the line around the corner on Saturday mornings. Shortly there- after, nobody had to wait for a table at lunchtime. I think Tom's Tavern picked up most of the business. -- The Brick said that (Don't bother to agree with me, I have already changed my mind.) ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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"Brick" > wrote:
> [ . . . ] game > > Considering cost/quality/profit, two situations come to mind. Bother > occurred in Boulder, CO. One was a Pizza Hut and the other a downtown > cafe called the "Aristocrat". The Pizza Hut was a longtime favorite > lunch hangout for the mini-silicon valley yuppies. It fell into decline > when it started cutting corners on quality and quantity. Business dropped > to zip and they closed their doors. The elderly "old country" Greek > owners of the Aristocrat cafe retired and turned the business over to > some young relative. The young college trained bean counter mentality > kicked in and business went straight into the shitter. The first thing > that went was the line around the corner on Saturday mornings. Shortly > there- after, nobody had to wait for a table at lunchtime. I think Tom's > Tavern picked up most of the business. I think that's what maintained Jun'a place. Keep the quality up and, like Chef Juke says, "Nobody leaves hungry!" -- Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and their families: http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ! |
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On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:13:01 -0700, "Dave Bugg" >
wrote: >Those of you that have been to the store know how far out of the way it is >from the main traffic flow in Wenatchee. I thought that we could make up >for our location by word-of-mouth along with heavy advertising. I just firmed up my plans. I'll be over there on Friday the 16th--and yes, you do need to raise your prices, based on what I've seen on the website. I'd say that if you are well out of the way (right near the bridge, yes?) you've done well for a first year. -- -denny- "I don't like it when a whole state starts acting like a marital aid." "John R. Campbell" in a Usenet post. |
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Dave Bugg wrote:
> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote: > > > The extra money I'm spending on fuel and heating has to come from > > cutting back in other areas. Some of that will be the occasional > > meal out. > > Yeah, I'm certain it will play out that way for our customers. They are > very loyal, but something has to get cut in family budgets. And of course > they way to make up for a fall-off of repeat customers is to increase new > customer growth. But that has been tough for us to do. > > We are able to capture data of customer visits with our point-of-sale > system. We currently see roughly 93% of our customers return. They > re-visit us an average of once every 3.25 weeks. Of course that means I'll > see some customers once every week, and others maybe once a quarter. But we > don't lose 'em once we have them. Our problem is increasing the number of > daily new customer visits. > > Those of you that have been to the store know how far out of the way it is > from the main traffic flow in Wenatchee. I thought that we could make up > for our location by word-of-mouth along with heavy advertising. To date > (11.5 months) we have spent over $19K in various advertising media. There > have been results, but it has been anemic. We had 20K allocated for our ad > budget for the first year. Next year, we will be relying on other methods > of getting the word out, and spending a lot less on formal advertising. > > If I had it to do again, I would have tried to raise more capital so that we > could've built closer to the main traffic lanes. I was wrongly convinced > that a smaller community would be quick to find out about us in a more > out-of-the-way location. So, the challenge continues. A local restaurant in my area did a can't fail type of advertising and sent out coupon postcards for a free dinner. Not a buy-one-get-one, just a plain free dinner, up to $8.95 menu price which covers most of their menu. Gives you what must be a 90% response rate, after all how can you pass up free dinner unless you don't like that type of food in which case that ad cost you all of $0.20, and in most cases people will bring someone else along as well. Impress them with your food and service and they'll likely be back. Pete C. |
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Dave Bugg wrote:
> Matthew L. Martin wrote: > > >>I'm sorry to hear that. > > > Put me in your KF, Matthew, 'cause I ain't your friend, and I spit on your > wishes -- well or otherwise. > At least you are as polite and friendly as you are well informed and respectful. HANL -- Matthew "All you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of people" -- Alexander Bullock ("My Man Godfrey" 1936) |
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On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:41:33 -0700, "Dave Bugg" >
wrote: >Matthew L. Martin wrote: > >> I'm sorry to hear that. > >Put me in your KF, Matthew, 'cause I ain't your friend, and I spit on your >wishes -- well or otherwise. > You are a sad, petty man. |
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Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
> You are a sad, petty man. And sadly, you're not even a man. |
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Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> At least you are as polite and friendly as you are well informed and > respectful. Just as you are sincere and trustworthy. |
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"Kevin S. Wilson" wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:41:33 -0700, "Dave Bugg" > > wrote: > > >Matthew L. Martin wrote: > > > >> I'm sorry to hear that. > > > >Put me in your KF, Matthew, 'cause I ain't your friend, and I spit on your > >wishes -- well or otherwise. > > > You are a sad, pretty man. IFYPFY |
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cl wrote:
> IFYPFY And we should discuss Kevins notion of pettiness more thoroughly. Pettiness is the very definition of your persona, Kevin. That is your self-defined purpose for your very existence on AFB. Your pettiness drives you to dry hump those whom you target so vigorously, that those self-same objects of your affections walk away from their computers puzzled about why their legs feel so well massaged. All the major dictionaries list "Kevin" under the various options given for the word "Petty" Thesaurus listings include "Kevin" as an alternative usage for the word "Petty". "You are a very Kevin person", has come to mean "You are a very Petty person." Even Richard Petty had briefly flirted with the idea of changing his name to Richard Kevin, out of recognition that no one could be more Petty than Kevin. Hell, even Snap-On Tools has you listed in their manuals as the "calibration standard" for Petty. You are a useless commodity, Kevin. Except as a living, breathing example of what it means to be Petty. Now, let's see what the dictionary has listed under the word "Useless". Well, looky here. As an example it has, "As Kevin as teats on a boar". Bwahahaha. |
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On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:27:27 -0700, "Dave Bugg" >
wrote: >cl wrote: > >> IFYPFY > >And we should discuss Kevins notion of pettiness more thoroughly. You and CAL make a cute couple. I'm sure you'll be very happy together, now that you've found leg-humping as a common interest. You've done an admirable job of shooting yourself in the foot in this thread, Bug. Thanks for showing your true colors, though I have to wonder why you didn't stop while you had a chance to salvage some credibility and dignity. |
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Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
> You and CAL make a cute couple. I'm sure you'll be very happy > together, now that you've found leg-humping as a common interest. At least Cal has far more credibility than you do, clown. And the only leg-humper is you. You keep coming and coming and coming like some comic oversized humonoid dildo. > You've done an admirable job of shooting yourself in the foot in this > thread, Bug. You're the one that humped me in this thread, clown. You just couldn't stay away. You are so predictable and pathetic. > Thanks for showing your true colors, though I have to > wonder why you didn't stop while you had a chance to salvage some > credibility and dignity. You do not give or take from my credibility. You have nothing of practical value that you have contributed in your life, and you want to put your feeling of impotance on the rest of us. Go dry hump a a rotting carcass of road kill, its the only thing that has a common value to your sick outlook on life. |
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On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:47:34 -0700, "Dave Bugg" >
wrote: >Kevin S. Wilson wrote: > >> You and CAL make a cute couple. I'm sure you'll be very happy >> together, now that you've found leg-humping as a common interest. > >At least Cal has far more credibility than you do, clown. <snip> Wipe the spittle off your monitor, Bug, then go have a quiet lie-down. |
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Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
> Wipe the spittle off your monitor, Bug, then go have a quiet lie-down. That's the best you can do, clown. Try to tag the other guy with YOUR emotional response and try to patronize. Your game is tired, your verbage shell set up on a foundation of silly redundancies. Now take your own advice, try to calm down, empty your bladder before you wet yerself. |
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"Kevin S. Wilson" wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:27:27 -0700, "Dave Bugg" > > wrote: > > >cl wrote: > > > >> IFYPFY > > > >And we should discuss Kevins notion of pettiness more thoroughly. > > You and CAL make a cute couple. You wanna double-date, You and ChrisMcGonell? |
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