Hello all,

I just got back from Austin, Texas and thought I would share a report. Somewhat to the distain of my wife, who is working there for a month, I decided to embark on a brisket tour. As a preamble, here's a great article from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Mar4.html

Since I flew in late afternoon I wasn't going to go to too much trouble on the first night. And since my wife was glad to see me she even suggested we have dinner at the County Line. She had chicken (of course) and I had a combo of babybacks, beef ribs, brisket and sausage. In my haste to order I forgot to ask for the sauce on the side. The babybacks were fine but pointless. Beef ribs a bit chewy. The sausage and brisket were the best of the bunch. Nice smoke and a good combination of chewy and tender. It's such a touristy place though that I longed for "the real deal." That's when I found the Washington Post article online.

I took a break the next day and had some passable but not great Pho (Vietnamese noodle soup) and fairly good Tex-Mex at Serrano's.

The next day I headed south to Lockhart, TX. Home of Kreutz. Pronounced Kr (eye)tz for some reason. It's a big barn of a place. You may have heard of the family disagreement that caused a split that caused them to move. Anyway, it's fairly atmospheric in that there is no atmosphere. No forks, almost no sides. You are there for the Meat. I ordered brisket. It was neither as tender or smoky as I was led to believe. I was disappointed but feel that I probably got there on a bad day. Cool place. I gotta go back there and check out Black's. It's the oldest family-owned BBQ joint in Texas. Or so they say.

Sunday I decide to get back to the article and went to Taylor to check out Louis Mueller. They were closed and it looked by the sign on the door that they had run out midday on Saturday. I almost missed the Taylor Cafe. It's hard to find, almost under a bridge near the railroad tracks. Everything in the article above is true and more. The cash register must have been old in 1948. I walked in through the door blacks used to use and two good-ol-boys at the bar gave me a kind of look. "Guess he ain't from around here." Duh. An elderly black couple were nursing beers at the "other" bar. I ordered brisket and a Dr. Pepper. Old and bent-over Vencil Mares came out of the back pushing a cart of meat. He asked me how I was doing. I told him, "Great, your brisket is fantastic." He gave me a nice smile and said, "Glad you're happy!." It's fine brisket. Nice and smoky and neither too chewy or too soft. I noticed an article from the local paper on the wall. It references a 2003 USA Today article that says his brisket is one of the top 25 food dishes in the nation. I'll have to do further research before I venture an opinion but it's DAMN GOOD. This is a must visit for anyone interested in Q. Next time I'll also check out Louis Mueller.

Monday I had to leave town so, besides getting a pastrami sandwich for the road from the excellent Katz Deli I stopped by a local chain place, Pok-e-Joes, for a small sampling of brisket. They just call it "sliced beef" on the menu. I was surprised. It was quite good. Maybe not world class but I'd kill for it up here on the BBQ starved Oregon coast.

These little town, Taylor, Lockhart, Elgin (I went through there but didn't try their specialty - sausage) are little gems. Some are pretty run down. The WalMart right outside town seems to have nuked their little central business districts. But it's the real deal and worth the drive out of the urban areas.

Peter

"Peter" < wrote in message
Hello all,

I just got back from Austin, Texas and thought I would share a report.




Good report Peter. You hit all the high points with the exception of two of
my faves: Smitty's in Lockhart and the Luling Central Market in....well,
Luling.

Glad you had a good trip.

John in Austin

I'm returning next month and those are on my list. Any other places I
should take in? I've only got 4 days. First day I'm getting in late
afternoon and I'll have limited transportation. Any place to get good
brisket to go between the airport and 2222. west of Mopac?

Peter


"JakBQuik" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Peter" < wrote in message
> Hello all,
>
> I just got back from Austin, Texas and thought I would share a report.
>
>
>
>
> Good report Peter. You hit all the high points with the exception of two
of
> my faves: Smitty's in Lockhart and the Luling Central Market in....well,
> Luling.
>
> Glad you had a good trip.
>
> John in Austin
>
>

I've been meaning to check John's place. Perfect. Thanks so much for the
information and links (The HTML kind)

Peter


"Nick" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 07:55:50 -0800, "Peter" >
> wrote:
>
> >I'm returning next month and those are on my list. Any other places I
> >should take in? I've only got 4 days. First day I'm getting in late
> >afternoon and I'll have limited transportation. Any place to get good
> >brisket to go between the airport and 2222. west of Mopac?
> >
> >Peter
>
> He'res a good one, some say the best, right smack in the middle of
> that area.
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/ravnhaus/BBQ...s/jmueller.htm
>
>
> >
> >
> >"JakBQuik" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >>
> >> "Peter" < wrote in message
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> I just got back from Austin, Texas and thought I would share a report.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Good report Peter. You hit all the high points with the exception of
two
> >of
> >> my faves: Smitty's in Lockhart and the Luling Central Market
in....well,
> >> Luling.
> >>
> >> Glad you had a good trip.
> >>
> >> John in Austin
> >>
> >>
> >
>

Peter wrote:
> I've been meaning to check John's place. Perfect. Thanks so much
for the
> information and links (The HTML kind)

Howdy. Long time lurker, first time poster. (Uh, at least I think so.)

Mention of John Mueller's has lured me out of lurkdom.

John Mueller's BBQ is the best barbecue I've ever had. I've lived in TX
for 13 years, and have made it a life mission to find every great BBQ
joint I can.

Forsooth, last year, whilst under-employed, I spent a month of weekdays
journeying to joints mentioned on various "Best BBQ of Texas" lists,
and never found a place as good as Mueller's.

I actually had his pork shoulder for the first time last month
(apparently he does not make it every day), and it was maybe the best
thing I've ever eaten. I had not had it before, and it motivated me to
try my hand at it the very next weekend. I followed the advice on the
BBQ FAQ, and it came out great.

Long story short, the other posters are correct. This is great TX
barbecue. (Be sure to get the spicy sauce).

Good luck,
James.

PS -- there's a rumor going around that right after Mueller's opened,
it got robbed, and the only thing the thieves took was BBQ.

wrote:
SNIP
> I actually had his pork shoulder for the first time last month
> (apparently he does not make it every day), and it was maybe the best
> thing I've ever eaten. I had not had it before, and it motivated me to
> try my hand at it the very next weekend. I followed the advice on the
> BBQ FAQ, and it came out great.
SNIP
> Good luck,
> James.

James,
I'm curious how you cooked the pork? Did you serve it with any type of
sauces? Also, how did the shoulder taste?, have you eaten east coast style
pulled shoulder to compare it to?
Regards, Mike Willsey

I've actually done 2 shoulders the last two weekends. The first was a
practice run for the second, which I fed to a party. It was devoured in
10 minutes flat. It took a long time to cook, so it didn't get time to
sit (which I've read is prudent). It was served with sauce on the side.

The cut I bought was small, at a local grocery store. It was labelled
"pork shoulder blade", and weighed about 4 pounds.

The first one, I put Stubb's (Austin BBQ joint that sells its rubs and
sauces) rub on it and let it sit for a day in the fridge. The second
one, I let it soak in Stubb's marinade for a day, then took it out,
dried it off, and put a light rub on it. (BTW, this is not an ad for
Stubbs, but I must say their products are awesome).

In both cases I let it sit on the counter for an hour before I put it
in the smoker.

In both cases I used some over-seasoned split hickory in my NBBD. This
was supplemented once in a while with some small apple chunks that I
only used for fire encouragement. Since the wood had some mold on it, I
got it burning in a secondary fire before loading it in the NBBD. This
helped for smoke and temperature control, too. I also habitually keep a
disposable pie tin full of water next to the firebox outlet. This helps
prevent dry-out, I hope.

I have a $20 thermometer in the lid of my NBBD, and I did my best to
keep it pegged around 275 degrees. Truth be told, it was much easier to
get my wood to burn clean at 300. Like I said, it was over-seasoned. I
was hoping that my thermometer was 30-50 degrees off (since it is
several inches about the grate.)

The first one I did, I wrapped it in tin foil at 3 hours (when I turned
it around) that I'd poked holes in. That one hit an internal temp of
190 (iirc) at the 5 hour mark. I took it off, gave it the fork test (
stuck a fork in there, twisted it, and came out with a yummy bite of
tender pork.) I made no attempt to shred it, I just carved it. My kids
(who eat nothing but Mac and Cheese and Chicken McNuggets, I'm afraid)
loved it. I had some w/ BBQ sauce on the side.

The one fault I thought the first shoulder had was that he mighta got
too much smoke. He looked pretty black (but I swear it was moist and
yummy inside), and his "skin" did have a bit of a creosote tang.

Thus I endeavored to protect the second one from heavy smoke as much as
I could. I wrapped it loosely in foil from the get-go. He spent most of
his time wrapped (loosely) in foil, and I turned him about every two
hours. I let him go nekkid (no foil) for about an hour to "crust up"
the outside. The second one took almost 2 hours per pound to cook
(because of the foil), compared to the first, which took about 1:15 per
pound. In both cases, I was able to yank the bone clean out of the
shoulder like it was a greased knife.

Both shoulders ended up with thick smoke rings. It tasted like the
moistest loin I'd ever tasted. Way better than loin. I'll never cook
pork loin again. This stuff cost under $2/lb., and was 5x better than
pork loin. It did not taste like ham at all.

I've had pulled-pork sandwiches, but never in the Pork Promised Land,
just here in TX. The ones I've had tasted more hammy.

Thanks for the chance to talk about my experiences, it was a really
exciting day for me. I've been practicing with my NBBD for about a
year, before I screwed up the courage to tell ten people, "Hey, show up
at exactly 5:30, and don't bring food." The day wasn't without some
drama here and there, and I was pretty nervous about my "coming out
party", but it went far better than I could have hoped.

I give full credit to everyone on the list, and everyone who
contributed to the FAQ. You guys gave me the courage to cook, saved me
years of head-scratching and burnt meat, and for that I'm truly
grateful.

Thanks,
James.

> wrote in message
> I have a $20 thermometer in the lid of my NBBD, and I did my best to
> keep it pegged around 275 degrees. Truth be told, it was much easier to
> get my wood to burn clean at 300. Like I said, it was over-seasoned. I
> was hoping that my thermometer was 30-50 degrees off (since it is
> several inches about the grate.)
>

Pork butt/shoulder cooks fine at higher temps like those, don't like ribs
that high cuz they get a tough skin to them, but shoulder is fine, and using
wood is good too as it's about impossible to oversmoke one of those things
if you are serving it pulled.

Not sure why you're putting foil on it after three hours though. That
inhibits Mr. Brown forming up, suspect it would actually destroy any
existing crust and you lose a lot of the reasons you're cooking with wood in
the first place. Might as well put it in the oven after 3 hours if you gonna
do that.
That piece of meat is so damn fatty and moist I dont understand why you
would foil.

D
--

On 21-Mar-2005, wrote:

> I've actually done 2 shoulders the last two weekends. The first was a
> practice run for the second, which I fed to a party. It was devoured in
> 10 minutes flat. It took a long time to cook, so it didn't get time to
> sit (which I've read is prudent). It was served with sauce on the side.

With your chimney temp at 275° a 4# shoulder should be done in five
hours or so. You'll actually be cooking (at the grate) at more like 250°.
That's a nice temp to get a shoulder to 195° internal. I don't see how
anyone could expect to achieve that meat temp with a grate temp
down around 200°. Seems like that would take 20 hours or more and
turn the shoulder into dry shoe leather.

> The cut I bought was small, at a local grocery store. It was labelled
> "pork shoulder blade", and weighed about 4 pounds.

That's a pretty typical weight for shoulders in supermarkets, at least
around Tampa it is. I seldom see one over 5 1/2#, but I have one
right now that's over 8#

> The first one, I put Stubb's (Austin BBQ joint that sells its rubs and
> sauces) rub on it and let it sit for a day in the fridge.

That's a good technique when you have the time and patience for
it. You can easily make your own rub(s) though, which must may
well please you more then Stubb's does.

>The second one, I let it soak in Stubb's marinade for a day, then took it
>out,
> dried it off, and put a light rub on it. (BTW, this is not an ad for
> Stubbs, but I must say their products are awesome).

I couldn't say you did wrong there, but personally, I don't like to soak
butts or shoulders in anything before cooking them.

> In both cases I let it sit on the counter for an hour before I put it
> in the smoker.

Practically everybody agrees that meat should be brought up to room
temperature before going in the cooker. More often or not I don't
achieve that, but I try.

> In both cases I used some over-seasoned split hickory in my NBBD. This
> was supplemented once in a while with some small apple chunks that I
> only used for fire encouragement. Since the wood had some mold on it, I
> got it burning in a secondary fire before loading it in the NBBD. This
> helped for smoke and temperature control, too. I also habitually keep a
> disposable pie tin full of water next to the firebox outlet. This helps
> prevent dry-out, I hope.

I wish I had the facility to preburn wood, but that ain't going to happen at

my place. That pie pan of water that you mentioned closely resembles
one of the recommended mods for the NBBD. It will decrease the amount
or direct radiated heat reaching your meat. That's a good thing. I doubt
the moisture amounts to anything, but I don't think it will hurt and it
does keep the pie pan from burning. I use a couple of bricks in that
position 'cause I'm too lazy to do the mod.

> I have a $20 thermometer in the lid of my NBBD, and I did my best to
> keep it pegged around 275 degrees. Truth be told, it was much easier to
> get my wood to burn clean at 300. Like I said, it was over-seasoned. I
> was hoping that my thermometer was 30-50 degrees off (since it is
> several inches about the grate.)

You have to have quite a bit of heat as well as airflow to maintain a
clean burning wood fire. 300° or even 350° at the dome won't hurt a
damn thing. Some here cook at those temps all the time. When
cooking with wood only, I try to control the cooking heat by controlling
the fire size. That's fussy, because you have to add small amounts of
fuel pretty often, but it works.

> The first one I did, I wrapped it in tin foil at 3 hours (when I turned
> it around) that I'd poked holes in.

Scare me. My minimal experience with foil resulted revolting texture.

>That one hit an internal temp of
> 190 (iirc) at the 5 hour mark. I took it off, gave it the fork test (
> stuck a fork in there, twisted it, and came out with a yummy bite of
> tender pork.) I made no attempt to shred it, I just carved it. My kids
> (who eat nothing but Mac and Cheese and Chicken McNuggets, I'm afraid)
> loved it. I had some w/ BBQ sauce on the side.
>
> The one fault I thought the first shoulder had was that he mighta got
> too much smoke. He looked pretty black (but I swear it was moist and
> yummy inside), and his "skin" did have a bit of a creosote tang.

That's a problem cooking with wood. I've been there and done that. I
can say with authority that I am not partial to creosote. On the other
hand a nicely smoked butt will be quite black when you take it off,
but without the creosote flavor.

> Thus I endeavored to protect the second one from heavy smoke as much as
> I could. I wrapped it loosely in foil from the get-go. He spent most of
> his time wrapped (loosely) in foil, and I turned him about every two
> hours. I let him go nekkid (no foil) for about an hour to "crust up"
> the outside. The second one took almost 2 hours per pound to cook
> (because of the foil), compared to the first, which took about 1:15 per
> pound. In both cases, I was able to yank the bone clean out of the
> shoulder like it was a greased knife.

Sounds like a lot of unnecessary fooling around to me. I don't turn
my meat and don't even move it around unless I'm doing a full
load, in which case I swap it end for end about half way through
to even out the cook time. (It's hotter near the firebox) Even then,
I don't turn it over. Maybe somebody would say my 'Q' SUX. I
like it just fine.

> Both shoulders ended up with thick smoke rings. It tasted like the
> moistest loin I'd ever tasted. Way better than loin. I'll never cook
> pork loin again. This stuff cost under $2/lb., and was 5x better than
> pork loin. It did not taste like ham at all.

Pork loin is not a good candidate for 'Q', because it is too lean,
but it does smoke nicely
and if you take it off before you kill it, it makes real nice sliced
meat. I take it off at about 160° internal, wrap it and let it set in
an insulated box for a spell. (Southerners here will know how long
a 'spell' is.) I do tenderloins the same way and they're just fine.

> I've had pulled-pork sandwiches, but never in the Pork Promised Land,
> just here in TX. The ones I've had tasted more hammy.
>
> Thanks for the chance to talk about my experiences, it was a really
> exciting day for me. I've been practicing with my NBBD for about a
> year, before I screwed up the courage to tell ten people, "Hey, show up
> at exactly 5:30, and don't bring food." The day wasn't without some
> drama here and there, and I was pretty nervous about my "coming out
> party", but it went far better than I could have hoped.

In case nobody remembers, I cook with an NBS (Silver), which is baby
brother to the NBBD and has about half the capacity. Otherwise the rules
are the same. Having no previous experience, it took me about a year to
get fire management under controll. Then suddenly, I couldn't imagine
why it seemed so difficult.

> I give full credit to everyone on the list, and everyone who
> contributed to the FAQ. You guys gave me the courage to cook, saved me
> years of head-scratching and burnt meat, and for that I'm truly
> grateful.
>
> Thanks,
> James.

Get on with the getting on my friend. You'll know when you have reached
Valhalla when you start liking your own food better then anything you can
'Bum' or 'Buy'.

Brick (Keep the shiny side up)

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On 21-Mar-2005, wrote:

> I've actually done 2 shoulders the last two weekends. The first was a
> practice run for the second, which I fed to a party. It was devoured in
> 10 minutes flat. It took a long time to cook, so it didn't get time to
> sit (which I've read is prudent). It was served with sauce on the side.

With your chimney temp at 275° a 4# shoulder should be done in five
hours or so. You'll actually be cooking (at the grate) at more like 250°.
That's a nice temp to get a shoulder to 195° internal. I don't see how
anyone could expect to achieve that meat temp with a grate temp
down around 200°. Seems like that would take 20 hours or more and
turn the shoulder into dry shoe leather.

> The cut I bought was small, at a local grocery store. It was labelled
> "pork shoulder blade", and weighed about 4 pounds.

That's a pretty typical weight for shoulders in supermarkets, at least
around Tampa it is. I seldom see one over 5 1/2#, but I have one
right now that's over 8#

> The first one, I put Stubb's (Austin BBQ joint that sells its rubs and
> sauces) rub on it and let it sit for a day in the fridge.

That's a good technique when you have the time and patience for
it. You can easily make your own rub(s) though, which must may
well please you more then Stubb's does.

>The second one, I let it soak in Stubb's marinade for a day, then took it
>out,
> dried it off, and put a light rub on it. (BTW, this is not an ad for
> Stubbs, but I must say their products are awesome).

I couldn't say you did wrong there, but personally, I don't like to soak
butts or shoulders in anything before cooking them.

> In both cases I let it sit on the counter for an hour before I put it
> in the smoker.

Practically everybody agrees that meat should be brought up to room
temperature before going in the cooker. More often or not I don't
achieve that, but I try.

> In both cases I used some over-seasoned split hickory in my NBBD. This
> was supplemented once in a while with some small apple chunks that I
> only used for fire encouragement. Since the wood had some mold on it, I
> got it burning in a secondary fire before loading it in the NBBD. This
> helped for smoke and temperature control, too. I also habitually keep a
> disposable pie tin full of water next to the firebox outlet. This helps
> prevent dry-out, I hope.

I wish I had the facility to preburn wood, but that ain't going to happen at

my place. That pie pan of water that you mentioned closely resembles
one of the recommended mods for the NBBD. It will decrease the amount
or direct radiated heat reaching your meat. That's a good thing. I doubt
the moisture amounts to anything, but I don't think it will hurt and it
does keep the pie pan from burning. I use a couple of bricks in that
position 'cause I'm too lazy to do the mod.

> I have a $20 thermometer in the lid of my NBBD, and I did my best to
> keep it pegged around 275 degrees. Truth be told, it was much easier to
> get my wood to burn clean at 300. Like I said, it was over-seasoned. I
> was hoping that my thermometer was 30-50 degrees off (since it is
> several inches about the grate.)

You have to have quite a bit of heat as well as airflow to maintain a
clean burning wood fire. 300° or even 350° at the dome won't hurt a
damn thing. Some here cook at those temps all the time. When
cooking with wood only, I try to control the cooking heat by controlling
the fire size. That's fussy, because you have to add small amounts of
fuel pretty often, but it works.

> The first one I did, I wrapped it in tin foil at 3 hours (when I turned
> it around) that I'd poked holes in.

Scare me. My minimal experience with foil resulted revolting texture.

>That one hit an internal temp of
> 190 (iirc) at the 5 hour mark. I took it off, gave it the fork test (
> stuck a fork in there, twisted it, and came out with a yummy bite of
> tender pork.) I made no attempt to shred it, I just carved it. My kids
> (who eat nothing but Mac and Cheese and Chicken McNuggets, I'm afraid)
> loved it. I had some w/ BBQ sauce on the side.
>
> The one fault I thought the first shoulder had was that he mighta got
> too much smoke. He looked pretty black (but I swear it was moist and
> yummy inside), and his "skin" did have a bit of a creosote tang.

That's a problem cooking with wood. I've been there and done that. I
can say with authority that I am not partial to creosote. On the other
hand a nicely smoked butt will be quite black when you take it off,
but without the creosote flavor.

> Thus I endeavored to protect the second one from heavy smoke as much as
> I could. I wrapped it loosely in foil from the get-go. He spent most of
> his time wrapped (loosely) in foil, and I turned him about every two
> hours. I let him go nekkid (no foil) for about an hour to "crust up"
> the outside. The second one took almost 2 hours per pound to cook
> (because of the foil), compared to the first, which took about 1:15 per
> pound. In both cases, I was able to yank the bone clean out of the
> shoulder like it was a greased knife.

Sounds like a lot of unnecessary fooling around to me. I don't turn
my meat and don't even move it around unless I'm doing a full
load, in which case I swap it end for end about half way through
to even out the cook time. (It's hotter near the firebox) Even then,
I don't turn it over. Maybe somebody would say my 'Q' SUX. I
like it just fine.

> Both shoulders ended up with thick smoke rings. It tasted like the
> moistest loin I'd ever tasted. Way better than loin. I'll never cook
> pork loin again. This stuff cost under $2/lb., and was 5x better than
> pork loin. It did not taste like ham at all.

Pork loin is not a good candidate for 'Q', because it is too lean,
but it does smoke nicely
and if you take it off before you kill it, it makes real nice sliced
meat. I take it off at about 160° internal, wrap it and let it set in
an insulated box for a spell. (Southerners here will know how long
a 'spell' is.) I do tenderloins the same way and they're just fine.

> I've had pulled-pork sandwiches, but never in the Pork Promised Land,
> just here in TX. The ones I've had tasted more hammy.
>
> Thanks for the chance to talk about my experiences, it was a really
> exciting day for me. I've been practicing with my NBBD for about a
> year, before I screwed up the courage to tell ten people, "Hey, show up
> at exactly 5:30, and don't bring food." The day wasn't without some
> drama here and there, and I was pretty nervous about my "coming out
> party", but it went far better than I could have hoped.

In case nobody remembers, I cook with an NBS (Silver), which is baby
brother to the NBBD and has about half the capacity. Otherwise the rules
are the same. Having no previous experience, it took me about a year to
get fire management under controll. Then suddenly, I couldn't imagine
why it seemed so difficult.

> I give full credit to everyone on the list, and everyone who
> contributed to the FAQ. You guys gave me the courage to cook, saved me
> years of head-scratching and burnt meat, and for that I'm truly
> grateful.
>
> Thanks,
> James.

Get on with the getting on my friend. You'll know when you have reached
Valhalla when you start liking your own food better then anything you can
'Bum' or 'Buy'.

Brick (Keep the shiny side up)

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Howdy,

Please permit me to respond to both Richard and Duwop with one post.

The tin foil idea, I got from the Harry Jiles section of the BBQ FAQ on
cooking pork. He seemed to be indicating that some folks got some
benefit from finishing off their pork wrapped in foil in order to help
control moisture. This seemed to gibe with (my version of) common
sense, so I tried it.

For the first shoulder, I did try and completely protect it from the
smoke (and heat) halfway through. This worked, in part (because it was
moist and tender), but I still had some creosote bitterness (probably
due to my aforementioned fire control problems). Hence my trying a
little more foil time on the second one. I only loosely wrappen the
second one in foil (honest!), and I assure you that both shoulders had
pronounced smoke rings and good smoky taste.

I would not try finishing BBQ in an oven (even though I'm sure it would
work), because cooking on the smoker is much more fun for me.

I will plead guilty to the higher temps charge. I would prefer to have
cooked it at 225 (grill-level), but I have to admit that the higher
temps are easier to control for a newbie like me, using the dried-out
wood that I had. I also offer in my defense:

1) I've read the various lazy-Q high-temp threads with great interest,
due mostly to my great laziness. I will admit that in my first attempt
to follow in Big Jim's footsteps, I did indeed turn a large brisket
into a small diamond.

2) I was trying out leaving the intake damper completely open, because
some folks on the list had recommended it, and it seemed like a good
way to get "clean smoke".

3) I've had some success with it in the past.

4) I can't get any more of the wood I learned to cook with.

I am continually trying to get better burns with lower temps and more
control, and I promise that I'll try a shoulder without the tin foil as
y'all have suggested. All part of the learning curve, I reckon.

Thank you,
James.

Howdy,

Please permit me to respond to both Richard and Duwop with one post.

The tin foil idea, I got from the Harry Jiles section of the BBQ FAQ on
cooking pork. He seemed to be indicating that some folks got some
benefit from finishing off their pork wrapped in foil in order to help
control moisture. This seemed to gibe with (my version of) common
sense, so I tried it.

For the first shoulder, I did try and completely protect it from the
smoke (and heat) halfway through. This worked, in part (because it was
moist and tender), but I still had some creosote bitterness (probably
due to my aforementioned fire control problems). Hence my trying a
little more foil time on the second one. I only loosely wrappen the
second one in foil (honest!), and I assure you that both shoulders had
pronounced smoke rings and good smoky taste.

I would not try finishing BBQ in an oven (even though I'm sure it would
work), because cooking on the smoker is much more fun for me.

I will plead guilty to the higher temps charge. I would prefer to have
cooked it at 225 (grill-level), but I have to admit that the higher
temps are easier to control for a newbie like me, using the dried-out
wood that I had. I also offer in my defense:

1) I've read the various lazy-Q high-temp threads with great interest,
due mostly to my great laziness. I will admit that in my first attempt
to follow in Big Jim's footsteps, I did indeed turn a large brisket
into a small diamond.

2) I was trying out leaving the intake damper completely open, because
some folks on the list had recommended it, and it seemed like a good
way to get "clean smoke".

3) I've had some success with it in the past.

4) I can't get any more of the wood I learned to cook with.

I am continually trying to get better burns with lower temps and more
control, and I promise that I'll try a shoulder without the tin foil as
y'all have suggested. All part of the learning curve, I reckon.

Thank you,
James.

Thanks a lot for the encouragement, Brick, it means a lot to me that
you replied.

I'm having a real good time with this, and enjoying the fruits of my
labor greatly.

You're right about the marinate, there was not a huge difference
between it and just a rub. Hmmm. Thought for food.

It's my mission in life right now to go find myself some better wood to
cook with. For a while there, I was able to just chuck a couple logs an
hour into the firebox, and not muck with the damper much. With my
current batch, I feel like the thing wants to run off to 500 degrees.

I'm still learning, hopefully.

Thanks,
James.

PS - again, I swear, the foil had no ill effects!

Thanks a lot for the encouragement, Brick, it means a lot to me that
you replied.

I'm having a real good time with this, and enjoying the fruits of my
labor greatly.

You're right about the marinate, there was not a huge difference
between it and just a rub. Hmmm. Thought for food.

It's my mission in life right now to go find myself some better wood to
cook with. For a while there, I was able to just chuck a couple logs an
hour into the firebox, and not muck with the damper much. With my
current batch, I feel like the thing wants to run off to 500 degrees.

I'm still learning, hopefully.

Thanks,
James.

PS - again, I swear, the foil had no ill effects!

> wrote in message
> Howdy,
>
> For the first shoulder, I did try and completely protect it from the
> smoke (and heat) halfway through. This worked, in part (because it was
> moist and tender), but I still had some creosote bitterness (probably
> due to my aforementioned fire control problems). Hence my trying a
> little more foil time on the second one. I only loosely wrappen the
> second one in foil (honest!), and I assure you that both shoulders had
> pronounced smoke rings and good smoky taste.

I've been very lucky to not ever have tasted bitter creosote even when I've
had smoldering logs. I stick to oak that's not over aged which probably
accounts form most of my luck. Fire control is harder using logs for sure,
takes a a couple of years to get a handle on. Well, it did for me anyway.

> I would not try finishing BBQ in an oven (even though I'm sure it would
> work), because cooking on the smoker is much more fun for me.

And you get to drink more beers too!

> I will plead guilty to the higher temps charge. I would prefer to have
> cooked it at 225 (grill-level),

Well go fer it if that's your preference, and I'd agree that some cuts of
meat require it. I don't think there much difference when doing a shoulder.
But it's your time, and hell, you could be right and it's a bit better and
I'm too lazy.

>but I have to admit that the higher
> temps are easier to control for a newbie like me, using the dried-out
> wood that I had. I also offer in my defense:

Yeah, the fuel sure makes a difference, even the humidity and temps outside.
Using wood like you are is the most difficult way, so your patience is
certainly a virtue.

> 2) I was trying out leaving the intake damper completely open, because
> some folks on the list had recommended it, and it seemed like a good
> way to get "clean smoke".

Well for sure the exhaust damper is always full open. If you're using wood
logs of about 2X3X12 or so you can close it down some after they get a good
burn going, that'll avoid the smoldering problem. One of the things you're
aiming for, just like a fireplace, is a good bed of coals. Bigger logs will
tend to smoke more and want to smolder more easily (smoldering causes the
creosote). Butts dont seem to mind the extra smoke though, or at least
that's been my luck so far. (I'll often use bigger logs like 6X3X14, your
standard fireplace log, on pork butt as the oak around here doesnt seem to
make a bitter creosote. Used a bit of madrone, but mostly oak.

> I am continually trying to get better burns with lower temps and more
> control, and I promise that I'll try a shoulder without the tin foil as
> y'all have suggested. All part of the learning curve, I reckon.

Its a fun one though. And hell, if you end up liking it foiled better than
not, you're the one eatin it not us.

One last question, you speak about control a bit, you're mainly talking
about getting a good average right, not worrying about 50-75F spikes here
and there I expect, right?

My typical burn cycle with wood cooking a shoulder:

New fuel on at 220-230 (or so) because the temps are going to go down a bit
before the new wood kicks in.
Spikes up to 300-350 (if gets to 325-350 I open the firebox and dump some
heat out, maybe)
Gradually comes down with a sweet spot around 260-240 holding for a good bit
Then as it goes down to the 220-230 level am ready to start again.

Total time if I've been good and said my prayers, 90-120 minutes.
Total time if I've been good and drunk 90-120 minutes
(sometimes more, sometimes less too)

If I'm cooking ribs I dont use wood as much as the smoke seems to overpower
that smaller piece of meat, I'll use wood for the 1st two hours or so then
go to lump only, with ribs I try to cook 225-250.

A lot of what and why I do some of these things has to do with the cooker I
use, every one has a different sweet spot where it likes to be at, hell,
that changes too, some days can't get it over 300 if I try, other days it's
a fight to keep it under 260. Go figure.

Hope this helps a bit. This is by no mean meant to be something to follow,
just an example of someones real world stuff.

On 22-Mar-2005, wrote:

> Thanks a lot for the encouragement, Brick, it means a lot to me that
> you replied.
>
> I'm having a real good time with this, and enjoying the fruits of my
> labor greatly.
>
> You're right about the marinate, there was not a huge difference
> between it and just a rub. Hmmm. Thought for food.
>
> It's my mission in life right now to go find myself some better wood to
> cook with. For a while there, I was able to just chuck a couple logs an
> hour into the firebox, and not muck with the damper much. With my
> current batch, I feel like the thing wants to run off to 500 degrees.
>
> I'm still learning, hopefully.
>
> Thanks,
> James.
>
> PS - again, I swear, the foil had no ill effects!

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger James. I got my firebox cherry read
a couple of times. It plays hell with the powder coating on it doesn't it?

Brick (Keep the shiny side up)

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On 22-Mar-2005, "Duwop" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
> > Howdy,
> >
> > For the first shoulder, I did try and completely protect it from the
> > smoke (and heat) halfway through. This worked, in part (because it was
> > moist and tender), but I still had some creosote bitterness (probably
> > due to my aforementioned fire control problems). Hence my trying a
> > little more foil time on the second one. I only loosely wrappen the
> > second one in foil (honest!), and I assure you that both shoulders had
> > pronounced smoke rings and good smoky taste.
>
> I've been very lucky to not ever have tasted bitter creosote even when
> I've
> had smoldering logs. I stick to oak that's not over aged which probably
> accounts form most of my luck. Fire control is harder using logs for sure,
> takes a a couple of years to get a handle on. Well, it did for me anyway.

<snip>

>
> Its a fun one though. And hell, if you end up liking it foiled better
> than
> not, you're the one eatin it not us.
>
> One last question, you speak about control a bit, you're mainly talking
> about getting a good average right, not worrying about 50-75F spikes here
> and there I expect, right?
>
> My typical burn cycle with wood cooking a shoulder:
>
> New fuel on at 220-230 (or so) because the temps are going to go down a
> bit
> before the new wood kicks in.
> Spikes up to 300-350 (if gets to 325-350 I open the firebox and dump some
> heat out, maybe)
> Gradually comes down with a sweet spot around 260-240 holding for a good
> bit
> Then as it goes down to the 220-230 level am ready to start again.
>
> Total time if I've been good and said my prayers, 90-120 minutes.
> Total time if I've been good and drunk 90-120 minutes
> (sometimes more, sometimes less too)
>
> If I'm cooking ribs I dont use wood as much as the smoke seems to
> overpower
> that smaller piece of meat, I'll use wood for the 1st two hours or so then
> go to lump only, with ribs I try to cook 225-250.
>
> A lot of what and why I do some of these things has to do with the cooker
> I
> use, every one has a different sweet spot where it likes to be at, hell,
> that changes too, some days can't get it over 300 if I try, other days
> it's
> a fight to keep it under 260. Go figure.
>
> Hope this helps a bit. This is by no mean meant to be something to follow,
> just an example of someones real world stuff.

Nice description Duwop. You did a fine job there with a very ambiguous
subject. My methodology varies only slightly from yours and the difference
is not worth mentioning. My pit like yours has a 'Sweet' spot. It likes to
run at 275° or so at the chimney. I have good luck with 3 to 4" X 12"
oak logs (one at a time) on a bed of Royal Oak lump. The hot lump
assures that the log doesn't smolder while the log tends to stabilize the
temp pretty well. I get far fewer and less radical spikes and slumps
with this setup. I don't peek or move anything around until the stack
temp drops below 250°. If I let it go much lower, there's not enough
heat left in the firebox to assure that fresh fuel doesn't smolder.When
the log is down to about 1/4 of the original, I add a new one parallel
to the first one and five or six inches apart. I add fresh lump between
the two and thus the cycle repeats. I keep the chimney damper wide
open at all times. My firebox draft works best open about 2 inches.

Brick (Keep the shiny side up)

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On 22-Mar-2005, "Duwop" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
> > Howdy,
> >
> > For the first shoulder, I did try and completely protect it from the
> > smoke (and heat) halfway through. This worked, in part (because it was
> > moist and tender), but I still had some creosote bitterness (probably
> > due to my aforementioned fire control problems). Hence my trying a
> > little more foil time on the second one. I only loosely wrappen the
> > second one in foil (honest!), and I assure you that both shoulders had
> > pronounced smoke rings and good smoky taste.
>
> I've been very lucky to not ever have tasted bitter creosote even when
> I've
> had smoldering logs. I stick to oak that's not over aged which probably
> accounts form most of my luck. Fire control is harder using logs for sure,
> takes a a couple of years to get a handle on. Well, it did for me anyway.

<snip>

>
> Its a fun one though. And hell, if you end up liking it foiled better
> than
> not, you're the one eatin it not us.
>
> One last question, you speak about control a bit, you're mainly talking
> about getting a good average right, not worrying about 50-75F spikes here
> and there I expect, right?
>
> My typical burn cycle with wood cooking a shoulder:
>
> New fuel on at 220-230 (or so) because the temps are going to go down a
> bit
> before the new wood kicks in.
> Spikes up to 300-350 (if gets to 325-350 I open the firebox and dump some
> heat out, maybe)
> Gradually comes down with a sweet spot around 260-240 holding for a good
> bit
> Then as it goes down to the 220-230 level am ready to start again.
>
> Total time if I've been good and said my prayers, 90-120 minutes.
> Total time if I've been good and drunk 90-120 minutes
> (sometimes more, sometimes less too)
>
> If I'm cooking ribs I dont use wood as much as the smoke seems to
> overpower
> that smaller piece of meat, I'll use wood for the 1st two hours or so then
> go to lump only, with ribs I try to cook 225-250.
>
> A lot of what and why I do some of these things has to do with the cooker
> I
> use, every one has a different sweet spot where it likes to be at, hell,
> that changes too, some days can't get it over 300 if I try, other days
> it's
> a fight to keep it under 260. Go figure.
>
> Hope this helps a bit. This is by no mean meant to be something to follow,
> just an example of someones real world stuff.

Nice description Duwop. You did a fine job there with a very ambiguous
subject. My methodology varies only slightly from yours and the difference
is not worth mentioning. My pit like yours has a 'Sweet' spot. It likes to
run at 275° or so at the chimney. I have good luck with 3 to 4" X 12"
oak logs (one at a time) on a bed of Royal Oak lump. The hot lump
assures that the log doesn't smolder while the log tends to stabilize the
temp pretty well. I get far fewer and less radical spikes and slumps
with this setup. I don't peek or move anything around until the stack
temp drops below 250°. If I let it go much lower, there's not enough
heat left in the firebox to assure that fresh fuel doesn't smolder.When
the log is down to about 1/4 of the original, I add a new one parallel
to the first one and five or six inches apart. I add fresh lump between
the two and thus the cycle repeats. I keep the chimney damper wide
open at all times. My firebox draft works best open about 2 inches.

Brick (Keep the shiny side up)

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