Hi guys. Thought you might find this interesting.

Situation:
The propane log lighter is inserted through a hole of my Ole Hickory pit
into the fire chamber. As it turns out, at least in my pit, there is a
large air-gap from this hole which was never sealed. This has allowed
significant quantities of smoke to leak into the kitchen. This has been a
nuisance, but I've put up with it because it was low on the priority list.
We simply opened the back door and used a fan to push out any smoke
build-up.

I finally called Ole Hickory yesterday afternoon to talk about fixes --- I
had thought placing some firestove type fiberglass door gasket material into
the air-gap, or using a high-temp silicone sealant would do the trick, and I
just wanted to confirm my thoughts.

Well, their head tech, Tony, completely and repeatedly denied that the large
air-gaps from the hole had anything to do with the situation. He continually
insisted that the problem was a plugged chimney or inadequate make-up air
from the stove's hood system. {note: the chimney was checked for
cleaning -- none needed -- the week previous, and my make-up air system was
designed and installed by a professional hood manufacturer/installer for 1.5
times the amount needed for BOTH the hood and the pit}

So, after an infuriating 20 minutes, I asked for Tony's boss. That guy
readily listened and agreed with my assessment and offered to send the
materials to accomplish the task (which I declined, given the low-tech
nature of the fix, and the fact that I didn't want to wait for the materials
to make the fix).

So, today, I get an email from Tony, completely taking my assessment to task
with a full-frontal denial of the need for a fix, and warning me of dire
consequences if I don't get my chimney unplugged immediately and if I don't
shut my pit down until the make up air system is re-evaluated. Sigh. This
guy is unbelievable. Not only is shutting my pit or my store down the
furthest thing from necessary, I sent the following email:

[begin quote]

The assertion that either there is inadequate make-up air, or that there is
a blocked flue or chimney are incorrect. Our make-up air system was designed
to provide 1.5 to 2 times the amount of make-up air required for both the
restaurant hood system and the chimney and fan system installed on my EL
unit. I had the entire chimney assembly checked last week for obstructions,
and it is clear.

The fact of the matter is this: There is a weakness to the design or
assembly of MY el model pit The hole that pierces the firebox, in order to
accommodate the log-burner assembly, is not sealed properly - and in fact
has large gaps -- and allows quantities of smoke to leak before being drawn
into the cooking chamber. This is unsatisfactory.

At this point, with your persistent, obtuse refusal to:

1. Consider the possibility that there is a flaw in the design or assembly
of MY el model pit;

2. Responsibly, and with an open mind, from both our unsatisfactory phone
conversation and then this e-mail, attempt to correctly ascertain the
solution to a problem that you have NOT EVEN PERSONALLY INSPECTED;

3. Entirely REJECT my personal observations about the problem and potential
flaws, the adequacy of my make-up air system (which was designed and
installed by a major regional professional manufacturer and installer, who
also installed the chimney and the cooking chamber evacuation fan and vent.
This was recently reinspected by a second installer and found to be MORE
than adequate).

I have decided to be angry about the defensive and absolute rudely
dismissive attitude. After speaking with your boss after our conversation, I
had decided to take his recommendations and apply high temp sealer Sealant
to the leaky hole in the firebox.

Now, that has changed. You have made me angry with your attitude and it
appears I cannot get anywhere with Ole Hickory. I now am demanding that,
under warranty, you send a service technician within the next 7 working days
to fix the problems. If this is NOT done, my attorney will be in touch with
the State of Missouri's Attorneys General Office of consumer affairs to file
the proper complaints. I will then proceed to do the same with our own AG's
office, as well as with the various state departments that deal with unsafe
manufacturing practices identified in industrial and commercial use
equipment.

In addition, since our business has grown so rapidly in the three months
since we have opened our doors, we have a need to add an additional pit. It
is now obvious that Southern Pride will be getting our business.

When I had visited Cape Girardeau to look at your pits, I was impressed with
all the talk of how well Ole Hickory took care of its customers. It is now
clear that this had, indeed, been mere talk and that you don't walk the
walk. It seems your first line of dealing with the customer is to blame
everything else, try to intimidate with bluster, than walk away. Fine. But
I ain't taking it.
[end quote]

Leaky, or not, the pit turns out some great 'Q. Life sure would have been
simpler if our climate here would have allowed an outdoor install :-)

--
Dave
Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
http://davebbq.com/

Jack Curry wrote:
> Company Presidents usually don't like this sort of thing...and
> employees generally **** themselves when letters of complaint
> featuring their name reach the bossman's desk.

I left it to our attorney to do the registered mail thingy with all the
lawyer language. My email was cc'd to the president of the company, though.
Gad, we're thinking alike, Jack :-)

BTW, sorry 'bout being so snotty and petualant in our previous. :-(

--
Dave
Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
http://davebbq.com/

> BTW, sorry 'bout being so snotty and petualant in our previous. :-(
>
> --
> Dave
> Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
> http://davebbq.com/
>
>
Bygones. ;-)

Jack

Dave Bugg wrote:
> Hi guys. Thought you might find this interesting.
SNIP
> Leaky, or not, the pit turns out some great 'Q. Life sure would have been
> simpler if our climate here would have allowed an outdoor install :-)
>

Hey Dave,

If your cooker is still under warranty, and you don't want them to be
legally responsible for carbon monoxide issues, etc.. You might want to
step back and double check. Also, by doing a "modification and or repair
yourself" you might be nullifing the warranty.

Also, even with a great chimmney, if the building is "tight" it could be
the intake of air from outside stifles the out flow of air. I guess you
have an air make-up from outside plumbed in or do you just take air from
the surrounding kitchen air?

Just some stuff, otherwise called food for thought.
--
Mike Willsey (Pedmont)
"The Practical Bar-B-Q'r!"
http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw

Charities; Oxfam GB: http://www.oxfam.org.uk/about_us/index.htm,
Operation Smile: http://www.operationsmile.org/

Piedmont wrote:
> Dave Bugg wrote:
>> Hi guys. Thought you might find this interesting.
> SNIP
>> Leaky, or not, the pit turns out some great 'Q. Life sure would
>> have been simpler if our climate here would have allowed an outdoor
>> install :-)
>
> Hey Dave,
>
> If your cooker is still under warranty, and you don't want them to be
> legally responsible for carbon monoxide issues, etc.. You might want
> to step back and double check. Also, by doing a "modification and or
> repair yourself" you might be nullifing the warranty.

Which is why I've given Ole Hickory 7 working days to get the work done.

> Also, even with a great chimmney, if the building is "tight" it could
> be the intake of air from outside stifles the out flow of air. I
> guess you have an air make-up from outside plumbed in or do you just
> take air from the surrounding kitchen air?

As I indicated in my post, the makeup air system was designed and installed
by a company that specializes in such installs. My spec for the system was
to provide 150 to 200% of required make up air.

> Just some stuff, otherwise called food for thought.

Thanks, but it was already taken into consideration and acted upon :-)

--
Dave
Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
http://davebbq.com/

"
>> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message

>>>The propane log lighter is inserted through a hole of my Ole Hickory pit
>>>into the fire chamber. As it turns out, at least in my pit, there is a
>>>large air-gap from this hole which was never sealed.

Is it supposed to be sealed? Could there be a reason it is intentionally
left open? If the draft was high, it should be drawing air in, not putting
smoke out. I've seen many woodstoves with holes or openings that never
leak. The biggest problem becomes one of difficulty of control on an
airtight model.

In most any heater, boiler, stove, if the chimney has a good draw openings
on the fire chamber or before, allow air in, but not smoke out. Just like
opening the peep hole on an oil burner. Check to see tha all the internal
baffles, if any, are in proper position.

I don't know your particular setup, but I do have 25 years of experinece and
carry two licences for operation of high pressure steam systems of various
fuels. The principal of operation is the same. If smoke is coming out, so
is CO.

Dave Bugg wrote:
>
> Jack Curry wrote:
> > Company Presidents usually don't like this sort of thing...and
> > employees generally **** themselves when letters of complaint
> > featuring their name reach the bossman's desk.
>
> I left it to our attorney to do the registered mail thingy with all the
> lawyer language. My email was cc'd to the president of the company, though.
> Gad, we're thinking alike, Jack :-)
>
> BTW, sorry 'bout being so snotty and petualant in our previous. :-(

Technically, if the makeup air is " 1.5 to 2 times the amount of
make-up air required" you couldn't have leakage due to a
pressurization. Just ignore the cooker for a second. Your system would
ventilate any smoke in the area with a very fast turnover rate and
wouldn't necessitate opeing the back door. Obviously the system either
has a leak, inadequate ventilation or the MA system isn't providing what
it is speced out to produce. I would heed the designer's warning and
have a HVAC engineer review the make-up air design and have the safety
of the indoor air quality tested and approved. There is no need to risk
litigation and bad press from patrons getting CO poisoning.

-CAL

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:09:32 -0800, "Dave Bugg" >
wrote:

>Jack Curry wrote:
>> Company Presidents usually don't like this sort of thing...and
>> employees generally **** themselves when letters of complaint
>> featuring their name reach the bossman's desk.
>
>I left it to our attorney to do the registered mail thingy with all the
>lawyer language. My email was cc'd to the president of the company, though.
>Gad, we're thinking alike, Jack :-)
>
>BTW, sorry 'bout being so snotty and petualant in our previous. :-(

Dave, how about you invite the Sales guy out to talk about the
additional equipment that you will need, and take the opportunity to
ask for some clarification about and correction to your existing unit.
Sales guys tend rip Tech/Support Guys a new one when this type of
thing gets going. BTW I've seen those Southern Pride Units and they
are quite nice also.

Harry

Harry Demidavicius wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:09:32 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
> > wrote:
>
>> Jack Curry wrote:
>>> Company Presidents usually don't like this sort of
>>> thing...and employees generally **** themselves when
>>> letters of complaint featuring their name reach the
>>> bossman's desk.
>>
>> I left it to our attorney to do the registered mail
>> thingy with all the lawyer language. My email was cc'd
>> to the president of the company, though. Gad, we're
>> thinking alike, Jack :-)
>>
>> BTW, sorry 'bout being so snotty and petualant in our
>> previous. :-(
>
> Dave, how about you invite the Sales guy out to talk
> about the additional equipment that you will need, and
> take the opportunity to ask for some clarification about
> and correction to your existing unit. Sales guys tend rip
> Tech/Support Guys a new one when this type of thing gets
> going. BTW I've seen those Southern Pride Units and they
> are quite nice also.
>
> Harry

I know nothing about those types of cookers, but Paul Kirk is opening a
restuarant in NYC this spring, and has plans to use J & R out of
Mesquite, TX .

Here's the thread:
http://www.rbjb.com/rbjb/rbjbboard/messages/375988.html
and his response when asked what smokers he would be using.
http://www.rbjb.com/rbjb/rbjbboard/messages/376227.html

This info might come in handy when talking to sales reps.

BOB

Dave Bugg wrote:
> Hi guys. Thought you might find this interesting.
>
>snipped yet another example of poor customer service.<

Dave-

Sorry to hear of your problems. Please keep us informed as to your
progress.

FWIW:
Recently, a new Q joint opened in my necck of the woods in NC. Turns
out they have a Southern Pride unit installed (mostly) outside.
They have the right equipment, I just don't think they know how to use
it yet as the food lacks a smoke ring or taste.

Rob

Dave Bugg wrote:
> Hi guys. Thought you might find this interesting.
>

So, Dave what finally happened? Did they make good or not?

Rob

" wrote:
>
> Dave Bugg wrote:
> > Hi guys. Thought you might find this interesting.
> >
>
> So, Dave what finally happened? Did they make good or not?
>
> Rob

Dave, I was wondering that too.

-CAL

cl wrote:

> Dave, I was wondering that too.
>
> -CAL

Hi Rob and Cal. Nothing has happened. I've forwarded my complaints to the
appropriate agencies. <shrug> In the meantime, I plugged up the gap and
that solved the problem.

--
Dave
Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
http://davebbq.com/

So a rude email from some flunkey in customer service caused you to
threaten legal action against his company, and to cease business with
them? You definitely burned some bridges there, for no reason. To quote
the Preacher: "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity."

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:20:54 -0800, Dave Bugg > wrote:

> Hi Rob and Cal. Nothing has happened. I've forwarded my complaints to the
> appropriate agencies. <shrug> In the meantime, I plugged up the gap and
> that solved the problem.

"anon" > wrote in message
...
> So a rude email from some flunkey in customer service caused you to
> threaten legal action against his company, and to cease business with
> them? You definitely burned some bridges there, for no reason. To quote
> the Preacher: "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity."
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:20:54 -0800, Dave Bugg > wrote:
>
>> Hi Rob and Cal. Nothing has happened. I've forwarded my complaints to
>> the
>> appropriate agencies. <shrug> In the meantime, I plugged up the gap and
>> that solved the problem.

Apparently, Mr. Anon, you don't "get" that there a lot of choices Dave could
have made and may well make in the future. You also don't understand that
getting things "right" for your customer after the sale will have a large
bearing on repeat business. Finally, the lifeblood of any business is
referals. Do a good job and a satisfied client will tell anyone who asks. Do
a bad job and they'll tell everyone whether they asked or not. Don't you
feel a bit emasculated having to post behind an anonymizer?

JD

anon wrote:
> So a rude email from some flunkey in customer service caused you to
> threaten legal action against his company, and to cease business with
> them? You definitely burned some bridges there, for no reason. To
> quote the Preacher: "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity."

And you are???? Of course, the top-posting gave you away. Come back when
you have a clue.
--
Dave
Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
http://davebbq.com/