salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

Hello there folks. I make something called buckboard bacon. It's
essentially a pork butt marinated in a brown sugar and molasses brine
over a 2-3 week period, after which it is smoked. The brine is about
16% salt by weight, and I use curing salts as well that contain both
sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite. One of the curing salts I use is
especially strong, and as a result of both the cures and the salt, the
pork does lose a lot of water weight over that 2-3 week period. I would
estimate a 25% loss in weight, and that's prior to smoking it.

When curing the pork in the refrigerator, I typically like to keep the
temperature around 40 degrees fahrenheit. The last time I made it, my
refrigerator malfunctioned, and for one day the temperature was around
60 degrees. However, the pork did not spoil. In fact, I got better
flavor penetration on that batch than I did in previous ones. So, I
would like to raise the temperature the next time I brine the bacon. I
would hope to achieve better flavor penetration, and possibly be able
to shorten the brining period. Is there any way to determine how much
leeway I have in increasing the temperature? Thanks for any tips you
can provide.

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> wrote in message
>
> When curing the pork in the refrigerator, I typically like to keep the
> temperature around 40 degrees fahrenheit. The last time I made it, my
> refrigerator malfunctioned, and for one day the temperature was around
> 60 degrees. However, the pork did not spoil. In fact, I got better
> flavor penetration on that batch than I did in previous ones. So, I
> would like to raise the temperature the next time I brine the bacon. I
> would hope to achieve better flavor penetration, and possibly be able
> to shorten the brining period. Is there any way to determine how much
> leeway I have in increasing the temperature? Thanks for any tips you
> can provide.

I don't have a clue on higher temperature so won't suggest anything. But,
for flavor penetration, are you injecting the meat also? It will surely cut
down the time to just a few days.

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello there folks. I make something called buckboard bacon. It's
> essentially a pork butt marinated in a brown sugar and molasses brine
> over a 2-3 week period, after which it is smoked. The brine is about
> 16% salt by weight, and I use curing salts as well that contain both
> sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite. One of the curing salts I use is
> especially strong, and as a result of both the cures and the salt, the
> pork does lose a lot of water weight over that 2-3 week period. I would
> estimate a 25% loss in weight, and that's prior to smoking it.
>
> When curing the pork in the refrigerator, I typically like to keep the
> temperature around 40 degrees fahrenheit. The last time I made it, my
> refrigerator malfunctioned, and for one day the temperature was around
> 60 degrees. However, the pork did not spoil. In fact, I got better
> flavor penetration on that batch than I did in previous ones. So, I
> would like to raise the temperature the next time I brine the bacon. I
> would hope to achieve better flavor penetration, and possibly be able
> to shorten the brining period. Is there any way to determine how much
> leeway I have in increasing the temperature? Thanks for any tips you
> can provide.
>
>
>
16% NaCl by weight, given a specific gravity of 1.65, means you are using
slightly more than 3 oz of table salt per quart of cure.

ounces by volume of Mortons per quart
% of Mortons per quart by volume
ounce by weight of Mortons per quart
% of Mortons per quart by weight

1.00
3.13%
1.625
5.08%

2.00
6.25%
3.25
10.16%

2.25
7.03%
3.65625
11.43%

3.00
9.38%
4.875
15.23%



In addition to that I'm guessing you are using Prague powder #1. How much of
that is
in your formula? What is your concentration of nitrates and nitrites in your
cure?

Kent

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> You mean, is there a way to determine the right
> way to do a thing you're never supposed to do?
> Not that I know of.

Never supposed to do? Dry curing is done at a fairly high temperature.
The brine I use may have the necessary amount of salt and cure to
accomplish something similar.

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> You mean, is there a way to determine the right
> way to do a thing you're never supposed to do?
> Not that I know of.

Never supposed to do? Dry curing is done at a fairly high temperature.
The brine I use may have the necessary amount of salt and cure to
accomplish something similar.

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

Thanks Kent. Let me give you some more detailed information. I use
4.44 lbs of brine per 10 lbs of pork. The brine is very dense and
sticky, and about 80% of the weight is brown sugar and molasses. I was
slightly off on the original NACL %, since I did not account for the
NACL in the cures I use. Here's how everything breaks out.

Salt (NACL) - 18.970%
Sodium Nitrite - 0.117%
Sodium Nitrate - 0.072%
Brown Sugar & Molasses - 80.842%

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks Kent. Let me give you some more detailed information. I use
> 4.44 lbs of brine per 10 lbs of pork. The brine is very dense and
> sticky, and about 80% of the weight is brown sugar and molasses. I was
> slightly off on the original NACL %, since I did not account for the
> NACL in the cures I use. Here's how everything breaks out.
>
> Salt (NACL) - 18.970%
> Sodium Nitrite - 0.117%
> Sodium Nitrate - 0.072%
> Brown Sugar & Molasses - 80.842%
>
>
>
What volume of water do you add this to to make up your brine? I'm guessing
your percentages above are percent by weight of dry cure that goes into
solution to become a brine. As we all know the lower the volume of water to
the weight of the ingredients determines the % of salt in your solution. If
all of this is true, you are using .8316 lbs, or 13.3056 oz of NaCl in 4.4
lbs of your cure. If 13.3 oz, by weight of salt were dissolved in 128 oz
water, or 1 gallon water, or by, that would give you a salt concentration in
your brine of 10.4 %. That translates to 8.1 oz curing salt by volume to one
gallon of water. Most of us use volume measurement when brining. That's the
most widely used salt concentration used by the majority of posters in this
NG. I would worry about raising your brining temp if all of the above is
true. I suppose there is a point in the salt/nitrite/nitrate concentration
of a liquid you are approaching of you accomplish with a dry cure. I keep
looking at the pork hams being cured at room temp hanging from the ceiling
at my local meat counter wondering how it can happen.

Kent

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

Kent, I do not use any water in the mixture. The only ingredients are
those that I spoke of. Perhaps, I misused the term "brine". It may in
fact be more accurately referred to as a dry cure. Although, as I
said, the mixture draws moisture from the pork, so as time goes on, it
does get somewhat diluted.

--sam

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> You're an idiot. Good luck with it anyway, though.

Wow Reg, you're really an asshole. But best wishes to you anyway,
though.

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

<<I'm feeling like a pretty nice guy, actually.>>

By calling someone an idiot simply because they used the wrong
terminology? Yeah, you sound like a terrific guy.

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> I just corrected a gross misinterpretation on your part
> that could have gotten you, and anyone else unfortunate
> enough to believe you, seriously hurt. I'm feeling like
> a pretty nice guy, actually.

First off, I never claimed to be an expert. I am very much a novice
and that's why I came to this group seeking advice. Most of the folks
here seem nice, and have been helpful. Your tone, on the other hand,
has been disparaging to say the least. Calling someone an idiot for
using incorrect terminology? And after all of that, I should be
grateful because you're just a "nice guy" who saved me and others from
serious harm? You have some serious delusions of grandeur. I wasn't
about to do anything before I knew for sure it was safe. None of the
other posters indicated it was ok for me to do so, so you are not
unique in that respect. Plus, this forum is not the only source of
information that I am using.

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Kent, I do not use any water in the mixture. The only ingredients are
> those that I spoke of. Perhaps, I misused the term "brine". It may in
> fact be more accurately referred to as a dry cure. Although, as I
> said, the mixture draws moisture from the pork, so as time goes on, it
> does get somewhat diluted.
>
> --sam
>
As I was doing the above math, I wondered if you were trying to dry cure, as
described here. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5472722.html. It appears
that then you can age the ham at room temp, as our local butcher does.
I have been curious about this for some time, though the more I read the
more I find the process pretty risk for the amateur. Too little nitrites and
nitrates contribute to the risk of botulism. If you cook meat cured with
Prague powder #2, which I assume you are using you are using, you have to
worry nitrosamines, which cause cancer. Look at this URL if you haven't:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage_Making
Morton's Tenderquick, which is Prague powder #2, publishes a booklet about
curing and sells it on the internet for $5.99.
http://www.c-els.com/sfCatalog.asp?s...34&pchid=10196 It
includes instructions regarding dry curing some meats at home.They should
publish it on the internet free; I have told them that, and needless to say,
they don't, or won't. I have cured ribs using Tenderquick in brine at a
ratio of 25% Tenderquick to 75% NaCl and the ribs end up having a ham like
taste, which detracts from what ribs are supposed to taste like. If I do
this again, I would probably try pork tenderloin.
ou might try posing this question on rec.food.preserving. Someone may have
experience with this.
The best of luck to you regarding this. Keep us informed.

Kent

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Kent, I do not use any water in the mixture. The only ingredients are
> those that I spoke of. Perhaps, I misused the term "brine". It may in
> fact be more accurately referred to as a dry cure. Although, as I
> said, the mixture draws moisture from the pork, so as time goes on, it
> does get somewhat diluted.
>
> --sam
>
Sam I just did the math, and realize you are using either Morton's
Tenderquick or Prague powder #2. I think, to be safe, that I would use
Morton Sugar Cure, unless your sugar/salt ratio is the same as that, and
follow Morton's instructions[for $5.99 plus shipping]. I would also be
concerned using brown sugar, unless you've figured out a way to adjust for
that in your formula. In that case you are truly "dry curing"! I probably
wouldn't raise the temp of the cure until you reach the aging stage.
I've always, as you can tell, wanted to try this. It's been fun chasing this
and redoing the math. Let us know how it's going.
Kent

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> Sam I just did the math, and realize you are using either Morton's
> Tenderquick or Prague powder #2. I think, to be safe, that I would use
> Morton Sugar Cure, unless your sugar/salt ratio is the same as that, and
> follow Morton's instructions[for $5.99 plus shipping]. I would also be
> concerned using brown sugar, unless you've figured out a way to adjust for
> that in your formula. In that case you are truly "dry curing"! I probably
> wouldn't raise the temp of the cure until you reach the aging stage.
> I've always, as you can tell, wanted to try this. It's been fun chasing this
> and redoing the math. Let us know how it's going.
> Kent

Kent, you are correct, I am using Prague powder #2 (6.25% nitrite, 4%
nitrate). Sorry I neglected to mention that earlier. The process may
qualify as a dry curing, but I'm far from certain of that. The
salt/cure/molasses/brown sugar mixture starts off with the consistency
of mud, and after about 3-4 days changes to the consistency of motor
oil. That's from all of the moisture that is extracted from the pork.
So at that point, would it be considered a brine? Perhaps so. I do
like your idea of not raising the temperature until the aging stage is
achieved, but how do I determine when that occurs? In any event, I'll
continue to research this, before I take any definitive action. Also,
if I can locate a meat guru in the area who can see this first hand,
and then make recommendations, it would probably be a prudent step as
well. In any event, I much appreciate your time and interest, and I
promise to keep you posted. It's always nice to be able to bounce
ideas off someone who is far more experienced in these matters than I
am...and not have to contend with condescending, derogatory remarks ;-)
Take care Kent.

Sam

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> Sam I just did the math, and realize you are using either Morton's
> Tenderquick or Prague powder #2. I think, to be safe, that I would use
> Morton Sugar Cure, unless your sugar/salt ratio is the same as that, and
> follow Morton's instructions[for $5.99 plus shipping]. I would also be
> concerned using brown sugar, unless you've figured out a way to adjust for
> that in your formula. In that case you are truly "dry curing"! I probably
> wouldn't raise the temp of the cure until you reach the aging stage.
> I've always, as you can tell, wanted to try this. It's been fun chasing this
> and redoing the math. Let us know how it's going.
> Kent

Kent, you are correct, I am using Prague powder #2 (6.25% nitrite, 4%
nitrate). Sorry I neglected to mention that earlier. The process may
qualify as dry curing, but I'm far from certain of that. The
salt/cure/molasses/brown sugar mixture starts off with the consistency
of mud, and after about 3-4 days changes to the consistency of motor
oil. That's from all of the moisture that is extracted from the pork.
So at that point, would it be considered a brine? Perhaps so. I do
like your idea of not raising the temperature until the aging stage is
achieved, but how do I determine the point at which that occurs? In
any event, I'll continue to research the various issues we discussed
before I take any definitive action. Also, if I can locate a meat guru
in the area who can see this first hand, and then make recommendations,
it would probably be a prudent step as well.

Kent, I much appreciate your time and interest, and I promise to keep
you posted. It's always nice to be able to bounce ideas off someone
who is far more experienced in these matters than I am...and not have
to contend with condescending, derogatory remarks ;-)


Sam

salt/cure level for brining at warmer temperature
 

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Sam I just did the math, and realize you are using either Morton's
>> Tenderquick or Prague powder #2. I think, to be safe, that I would use
>> Morton Sugar Cure, unless your sugar/salt ratio is the same as that, and
>> follow Morton's instructions[for $5.99 plus shipping]. I would also be
>> concerned using brown sugar, unless you've figured out a way to adjust
>> for
>> that in your formula. In that case you are truly "dry curing"! I probably
>> wouldn't raise the temp of the cure until you reach the aging stage.
>> I've always, as you can tell, wanted to try this. It's been fun chasing
>> this
>> and redoing the math. Let us know how it's going.
>> Kent
>
> Kent, you are correct, I am using Prague powder #2 (6.25% nitrite, 4%
> nitrate). Sorry I neglected to mention that earlier. The process may
> qualify as dry curing, but I'm far from certain of that. The
> salt/cure/molasses/brown sugar mixture starts off with the consistency
> of mud, and after about 3-4 days changes to the consistency of motor
> oil. That's from all of the moisture that is extracted from the pork.
> So at that point, would it be considered a brine? Perhaps so. I do
> like your idea of not raising the temperature until the aging stage is
> achieved, but how do I determine the point at which that occurs? In
> any event, I'll continue to research the various issues we discussed
> before I take any definitive action. Also, if I can locate a meat guru
> in the area who can see this first hand, and then make recommendations,
> it would probably be a prudent step as well.
>
> Kent, I much appreciate your time and interest, and I promise to keep
> you posted. It's always nice to be able to bounce ideas off someone
> who is far more experienced in these matters than I am...and not have
> to contend with condescending, derogatory remarks ;-)
>
>
> Sam
>
>
Take a look at this URL regarding dry curing.
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/foods/458...58-223.html#L5
I may try this.