http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail

Enshrine This Burger
If the site of the first McDonald's is commemorated, why not In-N-Out?

By Mark Kendall

September 5, 2006

BACK IN MY '80s high school days, In-N-Out Burger hadn't yet reached
our semirural Santa Clarita Valley, north of Los Angeles. So during
lunch period we would do the Double-Double dash - speed 10 miles to
the real Valley in San Fernando to wolf down one of those mysteriously
perfect twin-patty burgers before hustling back for class.

Today, these hunter-gatherer adventures are no more. In-N-Out has more
than 200 locations; three in no-longer-rural Santa Clarita alone. You
can down a Double-Double in Las Vegas, Phoenix or even - this hurts
- San Francisco. The family-owned chain has been successful enough to
spawn a famous commercial jingle, earn several loving write-ups in the
New York Times and have its burgers served to A-list celebs at swanky
post-Oscar parties.

The great taste hasn't changed, but the mystique that inspired our
carnivorous cross-valley quests sure has. The earlier, spartan
drive-throughs, which once kept us at arm's length, a sheet of glass
sealing off the inner sanctum where clean-cut workers frenetically
packed the grill with meat patties, has given way to brightly lighted
indoor seating no different from the national fast-food chains. The
fabled secret menu, for years passed around solely by word of mouth,
giving those of us in the know an easy way to separate the true
In-N-Out fan - and true Southern Californian - from the wannabes
.... well, the Web ended all that.

How can we preserve that vanishing sense of wonder while giving proper
respect to the important role In-N-Out has played in postwar SoCal
culture? An idea came to me a few months back while driving on the 10
Freeway, when I glimpsed a well-worn yellow-arrow sign, bearing a
quaint pre-digital clock.

It was there, in Baldwin Park, where Harry and Esther Snyder started it
all back in 1948, according to the company's website. (The original
hamburger stand was demolished when the 10 Freeway came through; this
site was its replacement.)

The old store, though, has been closed and gated off since 2004,
replaced by a much snazzier restaurant just on the other side of the
freeway at the same Francisquito Avenue exit. Next door stands the
two-story "In-N-Out University" managerial training center and company
store, selling such items as ski caps and beach towels emblazoned with
the chain's name.

Company honchos have told the San Gabriel Valley Tribune that they plan
to preserve the building, and there was even talk of a museum, but I
envision something more - a full-blown In-N-Out shrine. We don't do a
good job commemorating the innovative fast-food chains that Southern
California has unleashed on the world. Carl's Jr. launched from
Anaheim; Jack in the Box sprang out of San Diego. Del Taco first heated
up the fast-food scene in the desert outskirts of Barstow; Taco Bell's
Glen Bell got his start selling hot dogs in San Bernardino, the same
city that gave us McDonald's.

At least the site of the original Mickey D's is now commemorated,
though not by the company itself. Fast-food entrepreneur Albert Okura,
who operates the local Juan Pollo rotisserie chicken chain, owns the
building and uses it to house his corporate offices and an unofficial
McDonald's museum. Okura dreams that his chain, which has more than 30
units, will someday become the world's largest. "That's my destiny," he
says.

If the birthplace of mundane McDonald's can nurture dreams, just think
what inspirational powers would be unlocked by an In-N-Out shrine. It
could be old-fashioned, like the chain, with folksy docents serving up
homespun stories. Or maybe actors would earnestly re-create the early
days, when the Snyders and original business partner Charles Noddin
endured "cold, smoggy nights" as they sold 2,000 burgers their first
month, according to the book "The Heritage of Baldwin Park." Or maybe
it could be fully 21st century, with touch-screens, animatronics and an
interactive grill "experience." Either way, I can see buses shuttling
tourists between store No. 1 and the San Gabriel Valley's other great
attraction, the giant drive-through Donut Hole in nearby La Puente.

When I contacted In-N-Out's marketing department with a few questions
(which they requested in writing), the replies were terse. "We don't
have any plans for the closed store #1," wrote spokeswoman Michelle
Guzman.

She had served up a riddle. I pondered her enigmatic answer.

It came to me. Just look at the simple menu of burgers, shakes and
fries. The In-N-Out folks are masters of minimalism. What if they
skipped the bric-a-brac and gimmicks and just let the old store slide
into a mysterious ruin? Keep the grill's pilot light burning in an
eternal flame. Keep the cult following alive.

As the decades pass and In-N-Out's empire envelops the globe, burger
lovers would come from far and wide to glimpse this intriguing roadside
relic, an American Parthenon, summoning all the grandeur of Ancient
Grease.

-------------------

MARK KENDALL wrote the "Fast Food Dude" column for the Riverside
Press-Enterprise from 2001 to 2004.

In article .com>, "Joe
Gillis" > wrote:

>http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail
>
>Enshrine This Burger
>If the site of the first McDonald's is commemorated, why not In-N-Out?
>
>By Mark Kendall
>
>September 5, 2006
>
>BACK IN MY '80s high school days, In-N-Out Burger hadn't yet reached
>our semirural Santa Clarita Valley, north of Los Angeles. So during
>lunch period we would do the Double-Double dash - speed 10 miles to
>the real Valley in San Fernando to wolf down one of those mysteriously
>perfect twin-patty burgers before hustling back for class.

Joe,

Did you ever eat at the Backwoods Inn on old Hwy 14?

[snip]

--
charles

"Joe Gillis" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail
>
> Enshrine This Burger
> If the site of the first McDonald's is commemorated, why not In-N-Out?
>

Sure, why not? But I don't see what all the fuss is about. OK burgers, but
not great burgers.

Ha! Check out this pictu

http://www.route-66.com/mcdonalds/images/1948-A.jpg

Looks like they edged out a BBQ joint!

Ned Buntline wrote:

> Ha! Check out this pictu
>
> http://www.route-66.com/mcdonalds/images/1948-A.jpg
>
> Looks like they edged out a BBQ joint!
>
>

"None sold -- yet."


Dana

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:49:15 GMT, "Ned Buntline"
> wrote:

>Ha! Check out this pictu
>
>http://www.route-66.com/mcdonalds/images/1948-A.jpg
>
>Looks like they edged out a BBQ joint!
>
That was their previous endeavor at the same location.

Joe Gillis wrote:
> http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail
>
> Enshrine This Burger
> If the site of the first McDonald's is commemorated, why not In-N-Out?

Thanks for bringing this to my attention you cross posting jack ass.
What a great idea! Lets enshrine other great monuments of American
obesity! Agreed, the drive thru burger was probably just a small
contributor but lets put on our thinking cap. Yes, 7-Eleven! the Big
Gulp! When the first 32 oz. Big Gulp was born the largest cup of soda
you could possibly find was 12 oz. A regular size soda was a 6 oz. cup.
In 1984 they said hey if humans can drink 32oz of soda let us make a 44
oz Big Gulp!

Thank God the fast food chains that embraced this bigger is better and
let us also thank God for Super Sized Diabetes Drugs.

"Sonoran Dude" > wrote in message
> What a great idea! Lets enshrine other great monuments of American
> obesity! Agreed, the drive thru burger was probably just a small
> contributor but lets put on our thinking cap. Yes, 7-Eleven! the Big Gulp!
> When the first 32 oz. Big Gulp was born the largest cup of soda you could
> possibly find was 12 oz. A regular size soda was a 6 oz. cup. In 1984 they
> said hey if humans can drink 32oz of soda let us make a 44 oz Big Gulp!

So people should not be able to make decisions ad just say "NO" to oversized
portions? Why blame the seller, blame the buyer. We are not forced to eat
what is available.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>
> So people should not be able to make decisions ad just say "NO" to oversized
> portions? Why blame the seller, blame the buyer. We are not forced to eat
> what is available.
>
>


Sorry dude but yes we are forced to eat larger portions. How can we just
say "no" when not one major fast food chain or convenience market in
this country offers a regular 6 or 8 ounce soda cup for adult consumers.
(8 ounces happens to be the recommended serving size determined by the
soda manufacturers. Many kids meals have cups 10 to 12 ounces.) The 16
ounce cup is the minimum (small size) in most fast food chains today,
twice the recommended size as documented by the Coca-Cola Company in the
following nutritional document.
http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/m..._nutrition.pdf

Child obesity was never a problem before the co-introduction of corn
syrups and super-sized cups for our new super-sized stomachs and
digestive systems, your seem pretty smart, do the math.

Boycott American bottled soda and buy Mexican sodas that use cane sugar.
But unfortunately the Mexican bottlers are now succumbing to the ADM
bull shit and beginning to use corn syrup because of political pressure
from the Trademark Brands that are loosing market share to these better
tasting versions made south of the border.

"Sonoran Dude" > wrote in message
. ..
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>>
>> So people should not be able to make decisions ad just say "NO" to
>> oversized portions? Why blame the seller, blame the buyer. We are not
>> forced to eat what is available.
>
>
> Sorry dude but yes we are forced to eat larger portions. How can we just
> say "no" when not one major fast food chain or convenience market in this
> country offers a regular 6 or 8 ounce soda cup for adult consumers. (8
> ounces happens to be the recommended serving size determined by the soda
> manufacturers. Many kids meals have cups 10 to 12 ounces.) The 16 ounce
> cup is the minimum (small size) in most fast food chains today, twice the
> recommended size as documented by the Coca-Cola Company in the following
> nutritional document.
> http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/m..._nutrition.pdf
>

Since most fast food restaurants these days just hand you
an empty cup and send you to the drink dispensers, what's
the big deal? Just fill the cup half full -- not a problem.


> Child obesity was never a problem before the co-introduction of corn
> syrups and super-sized cups for our new super-sized stomachs and digestive
> systems, your seem pretty smart, do the math.
>
> Boycott American bottled soda and buy Mexican sodas that use cane sugar.
> But unfortunately the Mexican bottlers are now succumbing to the ADM bull
> shit and beginning to use corn syrup because of political pressure from
> the Trademark Brands that are loosing market share to these better tasting
> versions made south of the border.

Tom Royer wrote:

> Since most fast food restaurants these days just hand you
> an empty cup and send you to the drink dispensers, what's
> the big deal? Just fill the cup half full -- not a problem.

I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up to
the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim. Adults can make
these decisions but according to standard cup sizes that the
corporations have decided to market the corporation is making the health
choices for our kids not the parents.

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 07:58:01 -0700, Sonoran Dude
> wrote:

>Tom Royer wrote:
>
>> Since most fast food restaurants these days just hand you
>> an empty cup and send you to the drink dispensers, what's
>> the big deal? Just fill the cup half full -- not a problem.
>
>I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up to
>the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim.

Is there some reason why you cannot control the quantity of soda that
your children consume?

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

In news Kevin S. Wilson >spewed forth:
> On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 07:58:01 -0700, Sonoran Dude
> > wrote:
>
>> Tom Royer wrote:
>>
>>> Since most fast food restaurants these days just hand you
>>> an empty cup and send you to the drink dispensers, what's
>>> the big deal? Just fill the cup half full -- not a problem.
>>
>> I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up
>> to the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim.
>
> Is there some reason why you cannot control the quantity of soda that
> your children consume?

Self control is not his responsibility.......it's the guvments job.<g>
And not drinking soda is not a choice either, it should be outlawed
altogether!!
Just think of all the water that would be saved, not to mention the energy
used to produce it<eg>

Sonoran Dude wrote:


> Sorry dude but yes we are forced to eat larger portions.

Only the dumbest, least adaptable, least intelligent among
us are "forced". On second thought, no, even they don't get a
pass here. People do have many food choices available at any
given time... no matter what sob stories I hear about who sells
what.

There's never been a wider array of food choices available
ever in the history of human civilization.

> How can we just
> say "no" when not one major fast food chain or convenience market in
> this country offers a regular 6 or 8 ounce soda cup for adult consumers.
> (8 ounces happens to be the recommended serving size determined by the
> soda manufacturers. Many kids meals have cups 10 to 12 ounces.) The 16
> ounce cup is the minimum (small size) in most fast food chains today,
> twice the recommended size as documented by the Coca-Cola Company in the
> following nutritional document.
> http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/m..._nutrition.pdf
>

Don't go to Micky D's. Just don't. How hard is that?

If you do go, fatness likely awaits you. You choices, your
consequences.

> Child obesity was never a problem before the co-introduction of corn
> syrups and super-sized cups for our new super-sized stomachs and
> digestive systems, your seem pretty smart, do the math.
>
> Boycott American bottled soda and buy Mexican sodas that use cane sugar.
> But unfortunately the Mexican bottlers are now succumbing to the ADM
> bull shit and beginning to use corn syrup because of political pressure
> from the Trademark Brands that are loosing market share to these better
> tasting versions made south of the border.

Stay away from soda if you'd rather not become obese. You
don't need a Harvard diploma to understand that.

--
Reg

> >I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up to
> >the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim.
>
> Is there some reason why you cannot control the quantity of soda that
> your children consume?
>

How many kids do you have?

-John O

On 7 Sep 2006 13:10:15 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
>
>> >I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up to
>> >the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim.
>>
>> Is there some reason why you cannot control the quantity of soda that
>> your children consume?
>>
>How many kids do you have?

Two. Now what's your point?

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

On 7 Sep 2006 13:10:15 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:

>
>
>> >I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up to
>> >the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim.
>>
>> Is there some reason why you cannot control the quantity of soda that
>> your children consume?
>>
>
>How many kids do you have?
>
PS: You didn't answer my question. Is there some reason why you
cannot control the quantity of soda that your children consume?

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

"Sonoran Dude" > wrote in message
>
>
> Sorry dude but yes we are forced to eat larger portions. How can we just
> say "no" when not one major fast food chain or convenience market in this
> country offers a regular 6 or 8 ounce soda cup for adult consumers. (8
> ounces happens to be the recommended serving size determined by the soda
> manufacturers. Many kids meals have cups 10 to 12 ounces.)

So, they force feed you? Many places let you fill your cup yourself so you
just don't fill it to the top. My wife and I will split a drink. Saves
calories, saves money too. Diet drinks are available also. Most times, I
prefer water anyway.

Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
> On 7 Sep 2006 13:10:15 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
> >
> >> >I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up to
> >> >the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim.
> >>
> >> Is there some reason why you cannot control the quantity of soda that
> >> your children consume?
> >>
> >How many kids do you have?
>
> Two. Now what's your point?
>

I don't ever recall you mentioning that fact before. One are where we
have no control is in schools that have soft drink machines, and unless
you are standing there, you have no idea what they purchase.

-John O

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Sonoran Dude" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>> Sorry dude but yes we are forced to eat larger portions.

Snip

> So, they force feed you? Many places let you fill your cup yourself
> so you just don't fill it to the top. My wife and I will split a
> drink. Saves calories, saves money too. Diet drinks are available
> also. Most times, I prefer water anyway.

Ed,

It's true! That last time I went into a fast food place they held guns to
everyone's heads until they had finished all of their super-duper sized
hydrolyzed oil food stuff!!! ; )

I watched that movie Hamburger Nation, I think it was called that, anyway,
the guy got ill primarily eating regular sized meals, and it wasn't that
often that he bought super-sized, only when they asked him did he get one.
I've learned with age to make most of our own food from scratch! I had
grandparents that lived off lard and they lived into their 80's and 90's.
It's that hydrolyzed oil crap that's in nearly all processed food that's
killing everyone off, plus refined sugar in everything including canned
vegetables!

--
Regards, Piedmont

JohnO wrote:

> Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
>
>>On 7 Sep 2006 13:10:15 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
>>
>>>>>I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up to
>>>>>the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim.
>>>>
>>>>Is there some reason why you cannot control the quantity of soda that
>>>>your children consume?
>>>>
>>>
>>>How many kids do you have?
>>
>>Two. Now what's your point?
>>
>
>
> I don't ever recall you mentioning that fact before. One are where we
> have no control is in schools that have soft drink machines, and unless
> you are standing there, you have no idea what they purchase.
>
> -John O
>

It's a troll, not a fact.

Dan Krueger wrote:
> JohnO wrote:
>
> > Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
> >
> >>On 7 Sep 2006 13:10:15 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up to
> >>>>>the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim.
> >>>>
> >>>>Is there some reason why you cannot control the quantity of soda that
> >>>>your children consume?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>How many kids do you have?
> >>
> >>Two. Now what's your point?
> >>
> >
> >
> > I don't ever recall you mentioning that fact before. One are where we
> > have no control is in schools that have soft drink machines, and unless
> > you are standing there, you have no idea what they purchase.
> >
> > -John O
> >
>
> It's a troll, not a fact.

That's what I'm thinking, too.

Denny Wheeler wrote:
> On 8 Sep 2006 05:57:04 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
>
> >I don't ever recall you mentioning that fact before. One are where we
> >have no control is in schools that have soft drink machines, and unless
> >you are standing there, you have no idea what they purchase.
>
> "Oh, I can't control what my kids do every minute of every day, so I
> won't even try, and I'll blame
> <schools/government/society/(fill-in-the-blank)> for it. Why would I
> want to teach my kids the right way to <FITB> when I can instead whine
> about how it's not my fault?"
>
> Maybe that's not what you mean--but it sure the hell strikes me as
> such. And if you REALLY think you have no control--check out the many
> places where schools no longer have soft drink machines.
>

Nah, it just means I cannot control thier sugar/caffiene intake
entirely. We teach them by example, do all that other stuff, and give
them the freedom to make some choices. Hopefully they make the right
ones, but they won't always. IMO good parents give the kids some room
to do that. But I'm not so sure certain participants in the thread have
any such experience. ;-)

But thankfully, our school has implemented a 'healthy choices' program,
where the machines are gone along with the candy bar fundraisers and
several lunch options. Unfortunately, I don't see any smoked meat on
the menu.

-John O

Piedmont wrote:
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
I had
> grandparents that lived off lard and they lived into their 80's and 90's.
> It's that hydrolyzed oil crap that's in nearly all processed food that's
> killing everyone off, plus refined sugar in everything including canned
> vegetables!
>
> --
> Regards, Piedmont
>

Nothing wrong with animal fats and whole sugars. You hit the problem
right on the head. When the Soda manufacturers discovered that they
could use corn syrup for a fraction of the cost of sugar, that is when
the cup sizes and profits expanded. I would pay more for a premium
product that doesn't go straight to my belly fat.
Corn syrup is the culprit that sweetens most modern processed foods
because the price is deflated through "government" farm subsidies.

Let me re-open this can of worms for all you flag waving right wing rush
limbaugh wannabes.

Denny Wheeler wrote:

>
> (to Sonoran Dude)
> I echo Kevin's question. If *your* kids are overeating or
> overindulging in whatever, that lands squarely on *your* doorstep.
>
> -denny-
> --
> Never look for a worm in the apple of your eye.
> --Langston Hughes
Dude,
Since my daughter was very young I have mixed her softdrink with half
water and today she does it herself. On most self serve taps there is a
water spicket that you can use. She does make good choices because I
took the time to educate her about nutrition. At 7 she can make a
complete balance meal. I am a single parent and she routinely cooks for
us. Thanks for the concern.

On 9 Sep 2006 18:16:47 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:

>Nah, it just means I cannot control thier sugar/caffiene intake
>entirely. We teach them by example, do all that other stuff, and give
>them the freedom to make some choices. Hopefully they make the right
>ones, but they won't always. IMO good parents give the kids some room
>to do that. But I'm not so sure certain participants in the thread have
>any such experience. ;-)

That's twice that you've trotted out this argument, which seems to me
to reek of both straw and herring.

Do you seriously mean to imply that meaningful ideas about child care
and parenting can come only from people who have children?

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

On 9 Sep 2006 18:06:32 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:

>
>Dan Krueger wrote:
>> JohnO wrote:
>>
>> > Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
>> >
>> >>On 7 Sep 2006 13:10:15 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>>I guess you have never been a parent and watched your kids waddle up to
>> >>>>>the softdrink bar which they like to fill to the brim.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Is there some reason why you cannot control the quantity of soda that
>> >>>>your children consume?
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>How many kids do you have?
>> >>
>> >>Two. Now what's your point?
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't ever recall you mentioning that fact before. One are where we
>> > have no control is in schools that have soft drink machines, and unless
>> > you are standing there, you have no idea what they purchase.
>> >
>> > -John O
>> >
>>
>> It's a troll, not a fact.
>
>That's what I'm thinking, too.

And my status as a parent has exactly what bearing on the validity or
persuasiveness of my argument? Please enlighten. I'm quite eager to
understand why you think ANYONE'S status as parents has any relevance
to the topic at hand.

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
> On 9 Sep 2006 18:16:47 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
>
>> IMO good parents give the kids some room
>> to do that. But I'm not so sure certain participants in the thread have
>> any such experience. ;-)
>
> That's twice that you've trotted out this argument, which seems to me
> to reek of both straw and herring.
>
> Do you seriously mean to imply that meaningful ideas about child care
> and parenting can come only from people who have children?

How much do you value BBQ advice from someone that's never Qed
anything?

Dana

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:16:22 -0700, "Dana H. Myers"
> wrote:

>Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
>> On 9 Sep 2006 18:16:47 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
>>
>>> IMO good parents give the kids some room
>>> to do that. But I'm not so sure certain participants in the thread have
>>> any such experience. ;-)
>>
>> That's twice that you've trotted out this argument, which seems to me
>> to reek of both straw and herring.
>>
>> Do you seriously mean to imply that meaningful ideas about child care
>> and parenting can come only from people who have children?
>
>How much do you value BBQ advice from someone that's never Qed
>anything?
>
My oncologist never had cancer. Guess I'm hosed.

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

"Kevin S. Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:16:22 -0700, "Dana H. Myers"
> > wrote:
>
>>Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9 Sep 2006 18:16:47 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> IMO good parents give the kids some room
>>>> to do that. But I'm not so sure certain participants in the thread have
>>>> any such experience. ;-)
>>>
>>> That's twice that you've trotted out this argument, which seems to me
>>> to reek of both straw and herring.
>>>
>>> Do you seriously mean to imply that meaningful ideas about child care
>>> and parenting can come only from people who have children?
>>
>>How much do you value BBQ advice from someone that's never Qed
>>anything?
>>
> My oncologist never had cancer. Guess I'm hosed.
>
> --
> If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but
> we
> would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be
> truly dead.
> --David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"


-- Sorry about your Bad luck Wilson
James A. "Big Jim" Whitten

www.lazyq.com

Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:16:22 -0700, "Dana H. Myers"
> > wrote:
>
>> Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
>>> On 9 Sep 2006 18:16:47 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> IMO good parents give the kids some room
>>>> to do that. But I'm not so sure certain participants in the thread have
>>>> any such experience. ;-)
>>> That's twice that you've trotted out this argument, which seems to me
>>> to reek of both straw and herring.
>>>
>>> Do you seriously mean to imply that meaningful ideas about child care
>>> and parenting can come only from people who have children?
>> How much do you value BBQ advice from someone that's never Qed
>> anything?
>>
> My oncologist never had cancer. Guess I'm hosed.

Oncologists diagnose and treat cancer; if your oncologist had never
diagnosed or treated cancer, you might be hosed. Let's rephrase
your original question appropriately:

Do you seriously mean to imply that meaningful ideas about cancer
diagnosis and treatment can come only from people who have diagnosed
and treated cancer?

[ Further, it isn't even enough that an oncologist has *attempted* to diagnose
and treat cancer; I have known several people that have had cancer; without
exception, these people preferred treatment by professionals with a *history
of success*. ]

Parenting advice from someone that's never parented is no different than
BBQ advice from someone that's never BBQed. It's just that simple.

Dana

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 08:49:28 -0700, "Dana H. Myers"
> wrote:

>Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:16:22 -0700, "Dana H. Myers"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 9 Sep 2006 18:16:47 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> IMO good parents give the kids some room
>>>>> to do that. But I'm not so sure certain participants in the thread have
>>>>> any such experience. ;-)
>>>> That's twice that you've trotted out this argument, which seems to me
>>>> to reek of both straw and herring.
>>>>
>>>> Do you seriously mean to imply that meaningful ideas about child care
>>>> and parenting can come only from people who have children?
>>> How much do you value BBQ advice from someone that's never Qed
>>> anything?
>>>
>> My oncologist never had cancer. Guess I'm hosed.
>
>Oncologists diagnose and treat cancer; if your oncologist had never
>diagnosed or treated cancer, you might be hosed. Let's rephrase
>your original question appropriately:
>
> Do you seriously mean to imply that meaningful ideas about cancer
> diagnosis and treatment can come only from people who have diagnosed
> and treated cancer?

Oh, I see. You now qualify the sort of advice you're referring to. Why
is that? Before, you just said that any old advice of any manner and
stripe is meaningless if it comes from non-parents, or from people who
have never BBQed.

Thanks for making my point. If you're going to toss around blanket
generalizations, you don't later get to say, "Oh, but I meant advice
of a particular kind, not advice in general."

Without breaking a sweat I can think of a dozen bits of useful advice
that a non-BBQer could provide that you would ignore at your perile.
I'll bet you could, too, if you weren't clinging so hard to an
insupportable blanket generalization.

>[ Further, it isn't even enough that an oncologist has *attempted* to diagnose
> and treat cancer; I have known several people that have had cancer; without
> exception, these people preferred treatment by professionals with a *history
> of success*. ]
>
>Parenting advice from someone that's never parented is no different than
>BBQ advice from someone that's never BBQed. It's just that simple.
>
I'll be sure to inform the many, many parents I've known who have
found great value in the advice provided by non-parents. Meanwhile,
get back to me when parenting (and BBQ) is a science held to the same
rigorous standards as oncology. But, please, first look up the word
"sophistry." I mean, really; we could play this game all week.

PS: If your first few attempts at BBQ yielded meat covered with a
bitter, dark coating of what appeared to be soot, chances are that
someone who had spent some time camping but had never BBQed could
correctly inform you that burning green wood at low temperatures can
result in the meat being coated with creosote. But you would be wise
to ignore such advice, coming as it does from someone who has never
BBQed.

PPS: That's the bitch about blanket generalizations, innit? The
exceptions just come crawling out of the woodwork.

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

Kevin S. Wilson wrote:

> I mean, really; we could play this game all week.

No, we couldn't, because I'm done with you. It just amazes me how
belligerent non-parents can become when their child-raising advice
is challenged.

Cheers,
Dana

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:59:45 -0700, "Dana H. Myers"
> wrote:

>Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
>
>> I mean, really; we could play this game all week.
>
>No, we couldn't, because I'm done with you. It just amazes me how
>belligerent non-parents can become when their child-raising advice
>is challenged.

Belligerent? Don't flatter yourself.

Pointing out the many, many logical fallacies in your posts has been
mildly amusing, and watching you backpedal, hedge, qualify, and
dissemble has provided a few moments of pleasant distraction --
nothing more. It's a shame that you're now going to pick up your ball
and go home because you no longer like the game you were playing (and
playing quite badly, BTW).

PS: You know those labels on some kids' toys that say "CHOKING
HAZARD"? You can safely disregard them. I heard that some of the
people in the government agencies who define such things as "choking
hazards" are . . . oh, no! . . . non-parents. What would they know
about choking hazards?

PPS: You dress your kids funny. That one's a freebie.

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

> Oh, I see. You now qualify the sort of advice you're referring to. Why
> is that? Before, you just said


The kids must be keeping you too harried to notice who's posting, huh?

JohnO wrote:
>
>> Oh, I see. You now qualify the sort of advice you're referring to. Why
>> is that? Before, you just said
>
>
> The kids must be keeping you too harried to notice who's posting, huh?

Heh. He's apparently too worked-up to realize what's going on; he's
confusing warning labels with child-raising. When my 15-yo gets like
this, sometimes I'll send him out for a walk to cool off.

;-)

Dana

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 10:32:50 -0700, "Dana H. Myers"
> wrote:

>JohnO wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, I see. You now qualify the sort of advice you're referring to. Why
>>> is that? Before, you just said
>>
>>
>> The kids must be keeping you too harried to notice who's posting, huh?
>
>Heh. He's apparently too worked-up to realize what's going on; he's
>confusing warning labels with child-raising. When my 15-yo gets like
>this, sometimes I'll send him out for a walk to cool off.
>
>;-)
You were leaving, remember?

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

On 12 Sep 2006 10:12:21 -0700, "JohnO" > wrote:

>> Oh, I see. You now qualify the sort of advice you're referring to. Why
>> is that? Before, you just said
>
>The kids must be keeping you too harried to notice who's posting, huh?

One logical fallacy looks pretty much like any other, and one
mush-head espousing mush-head ideas is interchangeable with another.
You just bailed from the discussion sooner than the other mush-head.
For that, you get credit for recognizing a sinking ship when you see
one, and an insupportable assertion when you hear one.

--
If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace, but we
would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.
--David Boreanaz as Angel in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer"

Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 10:32:50 -0700, "Dana H. Myers"
> > wrote:
>
>> JohnO wrote:
>>>> Oh, I see. You now qualify the sort of advice you're referring to. Why
>>>> is that? Before, you just said
>>>
>>> The kids must be keeping you too harried to notice who's posting, huh?
>> Heh. He's apparently too worked-up to realize what's going on; he's
>> confusing warning labels with child-raising. When my 15-yo gets like
>> this, sometimes I'll send him out for a walk to cool off.
>>
>> ;-)
> You were leaving, remember?

No son, I wasn't leaving, I just wasn't debating child-raising
with you any longer. There's a difference, but I really don't
expect someone that confuses wall-socket covers with parenting
to understand.

Dana

Boy did you open the gate, but WHAT IS AN IN-N-OUT BURGER??? I live in
the 4th largest city in the nation and we have never heard of it.

Joe Gillis wrote:
> http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...nion-rightrail
>
> Enshrine This Burger
> If the site of the first McDonald's is commemorated, why not In-N-Out?
>
> By Mark Kendall
>
> September 5, 2006
>
> BACK IN MY '80s high school days, In-N-Out Burger hadn't yet reached
> our semirural Santa Clarita Valley, north of Los Angeles. So during
> lunch period we would do the Double-Double dash - speed 10 miles to
> the real Valley in San Fernando to wolf down one of those mysteriously
> perfect twin-patty burgers before hustling back for class.
>
> Today, these hunter-gatherer adventures are no more. In-N-Out has more
> than 200 locations; three in no-longer-rural Santa Clarita alone. You
> can down a Double-Double in Las Vegas, Phoenix or even - this hurts
> - San Francisco. The family-owned chain has been successful enough to
> spawn a famous commercial jingle, earn several loving write-ups in the
> New York Times and have its burgers served to A-list celebs at swanky
> post-Oscar parties.
>
> The great taste hasn't changed, but the mystique that inspired our
> carnivorous cross-valley quests sure has. The earlier, spartan
> drive-throughs, which once kept us at arm's length, a sheet of glass
> sealing off the inner sanctum where clean-cut workers frenetically
> packed the grill with meat patties, has given way to brightly lighted
> indoor seating no different from the national fast-food chains. The
> fabled secret menu, for years passed around solely by word of mouth,
> giving those of us in the know an easy way to separate the true
> In-N-Out fan - and true Southern Californian - from the wannabes
> ... well, the Web ended all that.
>
> How can we preserve that vanishing sense of wonder while giving proper
> respect to the important role In-N-Out has played in postwar SoCal
> culture? An idea came to me a few months back while driving on the 10
> Freeway, when I glimpsed a well-worn yellow-arrow sign, bearing a
> quaint pre-digital clock.
>
> It was there, in Baldwin Park, where Harry and Esther Snyder started it
> all back in 1948, according to the company's website. (The original
> hamburger stand was demolished when the 10 Freeway came through; this
> site was its replacement.)
>
> The old store, though, has been closed and gated off since 2004,
> replaced by a much snazzier restaurant just on the other side of the
> freeway at the same Francisquito Avenue exit. Next door stands the
> two-story "In-N-Out University" managerial training center and company
> store, selling such items as ski caps and beach towels emblazoned with
> the chain's name.
>
> Company honchos have told the San Gabriel Valley Tribune that they plan
> to preserve the building, and there was even talk of a museum, but I
> envision something more - a full-blown In-N-Out shrine. We don't do a
> good job commemorating the innovative fast-food chains that Southern
> California has unleashed on the world. Carl's Jr. launched from
> Anaheim; Jack in the Box sprang out of San Diego. Del Taco first heated
> up the fast-food scene in the desert outskirts of Barstow; Taco Bell's
> Glen Bell got his start selling hot dogs in San Bernardino, the same
> city that gave us McDonald's.
>
> At least the site of the original Mickey D's is now commemorated,
> though not by the company itself. Fast-food entrepreneur Albert Okura,
> who operates the local Juan Pollo rotisserie chicken chain, owns the
> building and uses it to house his corporate offices and an unofficial
> McDonald's museum. Okura dreams that his chain, which has more than 30
> units, will someday become the world's largest. "That's my destiny," he
> says.
>
> If the birthplace of mundane McDonald's can nurture dreams, just think
> what inspirational powers would be unlocked by an In-N-Out shrine. It
> could be old-fashioned, like the chain, with folksy docents serving up
> homespun stories. Or maybe actors would earnestly re-create the early
> days, when the Snyders and original business partner Charles Noddin
> endured "cold, smoggy nights" as they sold 2,000 burgers their first
> month, according to the book "The Heritage of Baldwin Park." Or maybe
> it could be fully 21st century, with touch-screens, animatronics and an
> interactive grill "experience." Either way, I can see buses shuttling
> tourists between store No. 1 and the San Gabriel Valley's other great
> attraction, the giant drive-through Donut Hole in nearby La Puente.
>
> When I contacted In-N-Out's marketing department with a few questions
> (which they requested in writing), the replies were terse. "We don't
> have any plans for the closed store #1," wrote spokeswoman Michelle
> Guzman.
>
> She had served up a riddle. I pondered her enigmatic answer.
>
> It came to me. Just look at the simple menu of burgers, shakes and
> fries. The In-N-Out folks are masters of minimalism. What if they
> skipped the bric-a-brac and gimmicks and just let the old store slide
> into a mysterious ruin? Keep the grill's pilot light burning in an
> eternal flame. Keep the cult following alive.
>
> As the decades pass and In-N-Out's empire envelops the globe, burger
> lovers would come from far and wide to glimpse this intriguing roadside
> relic, an American Parthenon, summoning all the grandeur of Ancient
> Grease.
>
> -------------------
>
> MARK KENDALL wrote the "Fast Food Dude" column for the Riverside
> Press-Enterprise from 2001 to 2004.
>