Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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Old 21-08-2006, 10:17 PM posted to rec.food.cooking,rec.food.baking,rec.food.sourdough
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On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:58:34 -0400, Boron Elgar
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:48:27 -0700, Brian Mailman
wrote:

Bob (this one) wrote:


I *believe* it was Pierre Troisgrois (sp?) who was known for telling
jokes with dishes, such as his salmon scallopine--he was playing on
large flat disks of flesh and referring to "leg of salmon" which some
would find amusing.

The problem is when someone doesn't realize they're pulling the finger
and takes themselves too seriously.


Except that Vegetable Carpaccio is not unknown in Italy, nor is it any
sort of food joke.

The web page below gives a recipe for Carpaccio Vegetale.


Of course, these Italians, if they _really are_ Italians, are
obviously poseurs and take themselves too seriously. "Carpaccio
Vegetale", indeed.


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Old 21-08-2006, 10:32 PM posted to rec.food.cooking,rec.food.baking,rec.food.sourdough
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Boron Elgar wrote:
[snip preceding]
Except that Vegetable Carpaccio is not unknown in Italy, nor is it any
sort of food joke.

The web page below gives a recipe for Carpaccio Vegetale.

*********************************************
http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/sp...carpaccio.html

Vegetable Carpaccio
Carpaccio Vegetale


[snip article and recipe]

And here is a restaurant in Italy that has it on its menu:

http://www.aeolia.com/menu/1991/06menu.htm

Boron


Oh, he probably already knows that he's fighting a rearguard action
against a change in languages [English and Italian] that is well under
way. We've all seen many examples of specific names morphing into
descriptives for semi-related things. It's quite like the way brand
names and trademarks become generic words, notwithstanding the efforts
of trademark lawyers. I've made similar objections a number of times
here in rfc, usually saying something like, "That sounds like an
interesting recipe, but don't call it ___[some misappropriated
name]_____ , make up a new name for it."

He's only recently been revisiting rfc anyway, and probably didn't
really feel at home until he tried to pick a fight. -aem

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Old 22-08-2006, 01:22 AM posted to rec.food.cooking,rec.food.baking,rec.food.sourdough
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On 21 Aug 2006 14:32:24 -0700, "aem" wrote:

Boron Elgar wrote:
[snip preceding]
Except that Vegetable Carpaccio is not unknown in Italy, nor is it any
sort of food joke.

The web page below gives a recipe for Carpaccio Vegetale.

*********************************************
http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/sp...carpaccio.html

Vegetable Carpaccio
Carpaccio Vegetale


[snip article and recipe]

And here is a restaurant in Italy that has it on its menu:

http://www.aeolia.com/menu/1991/06menu.htm

Boron


Oh, he probably already knows that he's fighting a rearguard action
against a change in languages [English and Italian] that is well under
way. We've all seen many examples of specific names morphing into
descriptives for semi-related things. It's quite like the way brand
names and trademarks become generic words, notwithstanding the efforts
of trademark lawyers. I've made similar objections a number of times
here in rfc, usually saying something like, "That sounds like an
interesting recipe, but don't call it ___[some misappropriated
name]_____ , make up a new name for it."

He's only recently been revisiting rfc anyway, and probably didn't
really feel at home until he tried to pick a fight. -aem



I feel that Jerry is real delight and swell fellow. He deserves the
defense.

Frankly, I have Past-o in the KF.

Boron
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Old 22-08-2006, 07:46 AM posted to rec.food.cooking,rec.food.baking,rec.food.sourdough
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Default The Artisan - Recipe Upload - 8/17/2006

Dick Adams wrote:
"Bob (this one)" wrote in message ...

(Foams) have a real, if limited, place in culinaria, as foie gras,
caviar, balut, Velveeta, durian and Miracle Whip do.


I suppose that having a "place in culinaria" can be taken to
imply that they are edible.


LOL At least.

I have always been partial to Miracle
Whip -- I wonder if you (Bob) can help me understand how it
is made? Can do mayonnaise, but not Miracle Whip. Balut
and durian do not seem very interesting, particularly balut.


Miracle Whip is a factory product that you can't exactly
duplicate at home. It's an evolution of "salad dressing" and
there are lots of recipes out there for it.
http://www.recipezaar.com/41781

And balut is not interesting. Really not interesting.

One thing I have always liked is a fried baloney sandwich on
sourdough bread, with Miracle Whip and kimchee.


Not a combination I've ever had. I don't especially like
Miracle Whip. I find the sweetness offputting. When I was a
kid, one of our neighbors used to make us Miracle Whip
sandwiches on Wonder bread. We thought they were terrific.

I grew up with homemade bologna (actually it was my
grandfather's homemade version of mortadella) that was never
fried that way. Until I got to college and my roommate
introduced me to its delights. Bologna, lettuce, mayo on a
New York kaiser roll at 3 in the morning in anticipation of
a monster hangover in a few hours.

Perfect.

Pastorio
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Old 22-08-2006, 08:23 AM posted to rec.food.cooking,rec.food.baking,rec.food.sourdough
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Jerry DeAngelis wrote:

When you have 1.3 million visitors a year to your website - from all
parts of the world - you can crow a bit.


I hate to tell ya, but I suspect a large number of those are merely
people curious to see if you are as much of a pompous ass as your
writing makes you out to be...

-L.



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Old 23-08-2006, 06:08 AM posted to rec.food.cooking,rec.food.baking,rec.food.sourdough
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Brian Mailman wrote:

The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I imagine....


Might want to check that reference...

Pastorio
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Old 23-08-2006, 06:59 PM posted to rec.food.cooking,rec.food.baking,rec.food.sourdough
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Bob (this one) wrote:

Brian Mailman wrote:

The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I imagine....


Might want to check that reference...


The Dictionary of American Food and Drink.... Harry's Bar (Rome), 1922.

B/
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Old 23-08-2006, 09:03 PM posted to rec.food.cooking,rec.food.baking,rec.food.sourdough
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Brian Mailman wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:

Brian Mailman wrote:

The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I imagine....


Might want to check that reference...


The Dictionary of American Food and Drink.... Harry's Bar (Rome), 1922.


Dictionary is wrong on place and time. Written by John
Mariani who contradicts himself, below, 16 years later.

"Harry's Bar Rome was born in 1959, took its name only in
1962 but the café existed since 1918. It was the Golden Gate
Confectioner's, quoted in many books. At the end of the
Twenties it became part of the De Gasperis' family until
1958, the very year it cake to be American Bar Restaurant."
Complete with typos... http://www.harrysbar.it/home.htm

"Fettucini Alfredo....A dish of fettuccini egg noodles mixed
with butter, Parmesean cheese, and cream. The dish has been
a staple of Italian-American restaurants since the
mid-1960s. It was created in 1914 by Alfred Di Lelio, who
opened a restaurant in Rome, Italy, under his first name on
the Via della Scrofa in 1910. The dish supposedly helped
restore the appetite of his wife after she gave birth to
their son. The original dish was made with a very rich
triple butter Di Lelio made himself, three kinds of four,
and only the heart of the best parmigiano. Fettuccini
all'Alfredo became famous after Hollywood movie actors
Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford ate the dish at
Alfredo's restaurant while on their honeymoon in
1927...After World War II Di Lelio moved to the Piazza
Augusto Imperatore, and in the 1950s his restaurant became a
mecca for visiting Americans, most of whom came to sample
fettuccini Alfredo...Because most cooks could not reproduce
the richness of the original butter, today the dish almost
always contains heavy cream."
---Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink, John F. Mariani
[Lebhar-Friedman:New York] 1999 (p. 126)
Complete with typos.

"The story goes that while honeymooning in Rome in 1927,
Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford dined almost daily on
this rich pasta at Alfredo's restaurant, and in gratitude,
presented restauranteur Alfredo Di Lelio with a golden pasta
fork and spoon at the end of their stay. Journalists picked
up the story and spread news of Fettucchine Alfredo across
the Atlantic. Before long, American chefs were imporvising.
According to Marie Simmons...food writer who is of Italian
heritage, an authentic Fettuccini Alfredo is not tricked out
with cream or mushrooms or green peas or garlic. It's a mix
of sweet creamery butter, Parmigiano-Reggiano, homemade
fettuccini, and black pepper. Nothing more, nothing less."
---The American Century Cookbook: The Most Popular Recipes
of the 20th Century, Jean Anderson [Clarkson Potter:New
York] 1997 (p. 213)
Complete with typos.

"Carpaccio was invented by Giuseppe Cipriani in 1950 at
Harry's Bar in Venice, Italy. It was named for the
Renaissance painter Vittore Carpaccio who was noted for his
use of red in his paintings. Thin sliced raw beef served
with a cold vinaigrette made with olive oil, or just olive
oil and lemon juice (and sometimes Parmesan cheese).
Generally served on a bed of greens such as watercresss,
endive, arugula and/or radicchio."
http://www.foodreference.com/html/fcarpaccio.html

Pastorio
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Old 23-08-2006, 09:28 PM posted to rec.food.cooking,rec.food.baking,rec.food.sourdough
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On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:03:06 -0400, "Bob (this one)"
wrote:

[---]

"Carpaccio was invented by Giuseppe Cipriani


I thought it might be interesting to see what the Italians themselves
have to say about this, so I looked it up in the Zingarelli, a
standard reference dictionary in Italy, such as is Websters in the
U.S., or the OED in other English-speaking countries. Thus far, they
agree with you, but

in 1950


"carpaccio
[denominato così da G. Cipriani intorno al 1960, perché il piatto fu
inventato in occasione della mostra del pittore V. Carpaccio
(1465-1526) a Venezia]"

they date it ten years later

at
Harry's Bar in Venice, Italy. It was named for the
Renaissance painter Vittore Carpaccio who was noted for his
use of red in his paintings. Thin sliced raw beef served
with a cold vinaigrette made with olive oil, or just olive
oil and lemon juice (and sometimes Parmesan cheese).


Zingarelli agrees with that, too:

"Vivanda consistente in carne, gener. filetto, affettata molto
sottile, condita con olio e formaggio parmigiano in scaglie e
consumata cruda"

but then goes on to add that by extension

"(est.) Preparazione simile a base di pesce: carpaccio di salmone
crudo; carpaccio di pesce spada."

the term also includes fish-based preparations. My version of the
Zingarelli dates from 1996, so it does not appear unreasonable that by
normal evolution of language, the term now also be extended to
vegetable-based dishes.
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"Bob (this one)" wrote in message
...

"Fettucini Alfredo....A dish of fettuccini egg noodles mixed with butter,
Parmesean cheese, and cream. The dish has been a staple of
Italian-American restaurants since the mid-1960s. It was created in 1914
by Alfred Di Lelio, who opened a restaurant in Rome, Italy, under his
first name on the Via della Scrofa in 1910.


His son was interviewed on CBC a few years ago and described how to make it
properly.
Graham




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Bob (this one) wrote:

Brian Mailman wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:

Brian Mailman wrote:

The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I
imagine....

Might want to check that reference...


The Dictionary of American Food and Drink.... Harry's Bar (Rome),
1922.


Dictionary is wrong on place and time. Written by John Mariani who
contradicts himself, below, 16 years later.


...The original dish was made with... only the heart of the best
parmigiano.


Still beating?

Thanks.

B/
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Brian Mailman wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:

Brian Mailman wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:

Brian Mailman wrote:

The same Harry's that developed "Fettucini(e) Alfredo" I imagine....

Might want to check that reference...

The Dictionary of American Food and Drink.... Harry's Bar (Rome), 1922.


Dictionary is wrong on place and time. Written by John Mariani who
contradicts himself, below, 16 years later.


...The original dish was made with... only the heart of the best
parmigiano.


Still beating?


LOL

They usually reserve it for carpaccio when it still throbs.
(Can you say throbs in a family NG like this?)

Pastorio
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Andrew Price wrote:
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:03:06 -0400, "Bob (this one)"
wrote:

[---]

"Carpaccio was invented by Giuseppe Cipriani


I thought it might be interesting to see what the Italians themselves
have to say about this, so I looked it up in the Zingarelli, a
standard reference dictionary in Italy, such as is Websters in the
U.S., or the OED in other English-speaking countries. Thus far, they
agree with you, but

in 1950


"carpaccio
[denominato cos� da G. Cipriani intorno al 1960, perch� il piatto fu
inventato in occasione della mostra del pittore V. Carpaccio
(1465-1526) a Venezia]"

they date it ten years later


13 years for this guy, and he makes a joke: " Il carpaccio:
deriva dal nome del pittore, Carpaccio per l'appunto, che
nel 1963 tenne una mostra al Palazzo Ducale (Venezia). Tale
piatto venne infatti servito per quell'evento. (Non è il
pittore che prende il nome dalla carne, Wink ). "
http://tinyurl.com/re4fn

at
Harry's Bar in Venice, Italy. It was named for the
Renaissance painter Vittore Carpaccio who was noted for his
use of red in his paintings. Thin sliced raw beef served
with a cold vinaigrette made with olive oil, or just olive
oil and lemon juice (and sometimes Parmesan cheese).


Zingarelli agrees with that, too:

"Vivanda consistente in carne, gener. filetto, affettata molto
sottile, condita con olio e formaggio parmigiano in scaglie e
consumata cruda"

but then goes on to add that by extension

"(est.) Preparazione simile a base di pesce: carpaccio di salmone
crudo; carpaccio di pesce spada."

the term also includes fish-based preparations. My version of the
Zingarelli dates from 1996, so it does not appear unreasonable that by
normal evolution of language, the term now also be extended to
vegetable-based dishes.


"Normal evolution of language" has no direct currency and is
unpredictable. Languages evolve and transmute words
willy-nilly (which, at one point used to be "will he, nill
he" and went through "normal evolution"). They also corrupt,
curtail, enlarge and add stuff to existing meanings. English
is absolutely best at this, pillaging other languages and
making new words faster than the old ones can die.

I maintain that expanding the meaning of carpaccio this way
is exactly typical of chefs trying to sound cool and neat-o
and cutting edge, by using words that carry a social cachet
rather than actually describing the dish. It's more like a
"normal" dumbing down of language to misuse it this way,
subtracting meaning rather than enlarging it.

I saw a menu that described passionfruit run through a
processor as a"confit" and a little later as a "coulis" -
both technical terms shattered into fragments of
meaningless. Apparently "puree" wasn't sexy enough despite
the fact that it was correct. It's pure pretension and
inflation. People "swellifying" their language. I saw
"roulade" used to describe a piece of fish surrounded by
rice and wrapped in seaweed - "roulade of wild-caught tuna
and California rice." There is only wild-caught tuna. I saw
"Popiette" to name a stack of slices of chicken breast with
cheese between - makes no sense at all. My absolute favorite
was a "muffin of hand-chopped chicken with assorted root
vegetables" that included peppers, tomatoes, cauliflower and
grapes among some roots - carrots, onions and yuca. The
"muffin" was essentially a slice of meatloaf.

Because ignoramuses do it is no reason for me or anyone else
to dignify it by according it any respect. There are
restaurants I've been in whose menus are opaque. So much
trendy jargon and pompous self-aggrandizement as to make it
necessary to plague the server to get even the smallest
notion of what the hell the kitchen is doing. My sense is
that most of this is to show the customer how much smarter
the chef is than they are.

Not interested. I understand romancing the menu a bit, but
maybe do it with adjectives and leave the nouns alone.

Here's romance marking the end of summer from the beginning
of an article I wrote...

It's time for the dizzying flower perfumes of summer to
give way to the crisp, gold scents of autumn. And for small
fruit-sweet tastes to give way to full stews and herby roasts.
There's no other time to smell the grasping earthiness of a
pumpkin patch, of an apple press at work, of late season
tomatoes stewing for a Sunday dinner with the first steamy
kitchen windows of this new season.
It's fall and it's time to cook differently and eat with a
seriousness that summer just can't match. Oh, sure, there
are the technical seasons, measured with laser scientific
precision more precise than the dance of angels on pinheads.
We're not talking calendars here; we're talking the color
of the afternoon sunlight, that mysterious blueness that
tells the pear trees to don their autumnal finery and,
finally, to rest. We're talking of the first hints of some
yet unborn far-off snowfall somehow to be smelled at the
edge of a sniff of some clear October morning.
For the months just past, we gave heat away, seeking a
cooling breath. Now we look to find that last ray of
warming sun, pulling it to us as we know it will be yet half
a year before we can again relax and sun ourselves in some
feline pleasure. We start the search for warmth in the
kitchen with hearty soups, stews and that whole family of
one-pot meals. Good chunky hunks of meat and vegetables in
a broth so rich you wonder why it's been so long since you
had some, Summer forgotten.

Not one "carpaccio" in the bunch...

Pastorio
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In article ,
Bob (this one) wrote:
= Dick Adams wrote:
= "Bob (this one)" wrote in message
= ...
[...]
= I have always been partial to Miracle
= Whip -- I wonder if you (Bob) can help me understand how it
= is made? Can do mayonnaise, but not Miracle Whip. Balut
= and durian do not seem very interesting, particularly balut.
=
= Miracle Whip is a factory product that you can't exactly
= duplicate at home. It's an evolution of "salad dressing" and
= there are lots of recipes out there for it.
= http://www.recipezaar.com/41781
=
= And balut is not interesting. Really not interesting.
=
= One thing I have always liked is a fried baloney sandwich on
= sourdough bread, with Miracle Whip and kimchee.
=
= Not a combination I've ever had. I don't especially like
= Miracle Whip. I find the sweetness offputting. When I was a
= kid, one of our neighbors used to make us Miracle Whip
= sandwiches on Wonder bread. We thought they were terrific.

Interesting. I, too, grew up with Miracle Whip. Indeed, I was a
not-so-young adult before I realized that it isn't mayonnaise (which
is what my family called it) -- simply never thought about the
possibility that there was actually something else. 'Course we
lived in the sticks, one of the myriad hollows in the northern
panhandle of WEST-by-gawd-Virginia.

I'm surprised that you find it sweet. To this day, I still prefer
it to mayonnaise because, to my palate, it has a tang that's lacking
in mayonnaise (which I find bland). To me, Miracle Whip has almost a
tartness that I like. I'm speaking of store-bought and/or restaurant
mayonnaise, here. Don't know that I've ever tried home-made.

[...]


--
Charlie Sorsby

Edgewood, NM 87015
USA


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