I haven't tried everything in it and I was wondering, for those who have
used her book, does she live up to all the praise? So far, the first few
recipes are very high in fat (all that butter and cream!!) and I'm no
longer sure if the book is worth buying. Some recommendations would be
appreciated! Thanks!

On Wed, 03 May 2006 06:04:56 GMT, Cornofstarchy >
wrote:

>I haven't tried everything in it and I was wondering, for those who have
>used her book, does she live up to all the praise? So far, the first few
>recipes are very high in fat (all that butter and cream!!) and I'm no
>longer sure if the book is worth buying. Some recommendations would be
>appreciated! Thanks!

I bought the book when it was published. Ms. Beranbaum does not
claim that it is a "diet" cake book. Her collection is the real
thing in cakes. The "Pie and Pastry Bible" is also the real thing in
pastry. I have enjoyed them both.

You might want to look for a different author.

On 5/3/06, Cornofstarchy > wrote:
>
> I haven't tried everything in it and I was wondering, for those who have
> used her book, does she live up to all the praise? So far, the first few
> recipes are very high in fat (all that butter and cream!!) and I'm no
> longer sure if the book is worth buying. Some recommendations would be
> appreciated!


Cakes are an indulgence. All cakes are, or should be, high in fat and
cream. On the other hand, to make them special, one shouldn't eat them
every day. What one has too often stops being special.

I have had all three of her bibles and think that her recipes are, overall,
more trouble than they are worth. She is obsessively fussy, and, while the
results are good, you can get as good a results without being so nitpicky.

I suggest any book by Maida Heatter. Her recipes really, really work, they
taste good, and the aren't nearly so fussy.

Mike

Cornofstarchy wrote:
> I haven't tried everything in it and I was wondering, for those who have
> used her book, does she live up to all the praise? So far, the first few
> recipes are very high in fat (all that butter and cream!!) and I'm no
> longer sure if the book is worth buying. Some recommendations would be
> appreciated! Thanks!

I have her book and the first thing I thought was well you can tell
she's not from the South. Many of her recipes are lacking in sugar in
my opinion.

at Wed, 03 May 2006 06:04:56 GMT in <cKX5g.110383$WI1.103259@pd7tw2no>,
(Cornofstarchy) wrote :

>I haven't tried everything in it and I was wondering, for those who have
>used her book, does she live up to all the praise? So far, the first few
>recipes are very high in fat (all that butter and cream!!)

Yup, that's the first thing to look for in a cake recipe - high in butter
and cream. Within limits, the higher, the better. In fact, when doing a
recipe search on the Internet I often pick my winner by finding that with
the highest butter percentage.

RLB's book is just about the best general-purpose cake book you can find.
For *specific* types of cakes (e.g. chocolate cakes, French or Austrian or
Nationality X cakes, cupcakes, etc. there are better (more specialised)
books but as a first source that gives you the basics it's really hard to
go wrong. I recommend it highly.

--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

In article .com>,
says...
>
> Cornofstarchy wrote:
> > I haven't tried everything in it and I was wondering, for those who have
> > used her book, does she live up to all the praise? So far, the first few
> > recipes are very high in fat (all that butter and cream!!) and I'm no
> > longer sure if the book is worth buying. Some recommendations would be
> > appreciated! Thanks!
>
> I have her book and the first thing I thought was well you can tell
> she's not from the South. Many of her recipes are lacking in sugar in
> my opinion.
>
>
I think the great advantage about home made, among others, is that you
can skip the preservatives and adjust the sugar. Why also complain
(other posters, I think) that she's too fussy? Or put another way: Why
prefer information that's dumbed down?

I have all Ms. Birnbaum's books and I think she has a deservedly first
rate reputation among her peers and duffers like me for what she does.

On 5/4/06, LDR > wrote:
>
> Why also complain (other posters, I think) that she's too fussy? Or put
> another way: Why
> prefer information that's dumbed down?


You misrepresent my comments. What I said was, "I have had all three of her
bibles and think that her recipes are, overall, more trouble than they are
worth. She is obsessively fussy, and, while the results are good, you can
get as good a results without being so nitpicky."

Many of her recipes are far too complex for the results. I've owned a
bakery and had professional pastry chefs work for me. They look at her
books with incredulity. You don't have to make it that hard to get good
results.

There is a difference between "dumbed down" and excessively complex. Good
instruction falls somewhere inbetween these extremes. It's not rocket
science, we're not inventing a cure for cancer... it's just a cake.

Mike


Mike

On Thu, 4 May 2006 20:10:35 -0600, "Mike Avery"
> wrote:

>On 5/4/06, LDR > wrote:
>>
>> Why also complain (other posters, I think) that she's too fussy? Or put
>> another way: Why
>> prefer information that's dumbed down?
>
>
>You misrepresent my comments. What I said was, "I have had all three of her
>bibles and think that her recipes are, overall, more trouble than they are
>worth. She is obsessively fussy, and, while the results are good, you can
>get as good a results without being so nitpicky."
>
>Many of her recipes are far too complex for the results. I've owned a
>bakery and had professional pastry chefs work for me. They look at her
>books with incredulity. You don't have to make it that hard to get good
>results.

Amazing...I feel exactly the same way about making bread.
>
>There is a difference between "dumbed down" and excessively complex.

Sure is.

> Good
>instruction falls somewhere inbetween these extremes. It's not rocket
>science, we're not inventing a cure for cancer... it's just a cake.

Or a loaf of bread, of course.


Boron

In article
therwhen.com>,
says...
> On 5/4/06, LDR > wrote:
> >
> > Why also complain (other posters, I think) that she's too fussy? Or put
> > another way: Why
> > prefer information that's dumbed down?
>
>
> You misrepresent my comments. What I said was, "I have had all three of her
> bibles and think that her recipes are, overall, more trouble than they are
> worth. She is obsessively fussy, and, while the results are good, you can
> get as good a results without being so nitpicky."
>
> Many of her recipes are far too complex for the results. I've owned a
> bakery and had professional pastry chefs work for me. They look at her
> books with incredulity. You don't have to make it that hard to get good
> results.
>
> There is a difference between "dumbed down" and excessively complex. Good
> instruction falls somewhere inbetween these extremes. It's not rocket
> science, we're not inventing a cure for cancer... it's just a cake.
>

Ms. Beranbaum is the first person to say she's anal in her obsession to
test and explore recipes, which, by the way and very interestingly,
bakers do not call recipes recipes--they call them formulas. (Actually,
anal is my word, not hers, but she does say something like it.)

Your point is well taken for yourself, Mike, and maybe many others, but
I like to swim in information and decide for myself what to keep. Let's
say for argument and good will, that there are two extremes: Ms.
Beranbaum's bibles and recipes printed on a Pillsbury bag.

Guess which way I would lean? :-)

On Fri, 05 May 2006 15:00:46 GMT, LDR >
wrote:

>Your point is well taken for yourself, Mike, and maybe many others, but
>I like to swim in information and decide for myself what to keep. Let's
>say for argument and good will, that there are two extremes: Ms.
>Beranbaum's bibles and recipes printed on a Pillsbury bag.

I have yet to make a "ROSE RECIPE" and someone inquire if it was a
"box" mix. <vbg> If taking the time to make something
breathtaking....Rose's books are next to Julia in the pastry and cake
category. Her formulas are exquisite and the Pineapple Upside Down
Cake will make you fall to your knees.

Fussy...? Yes...and that is why we put a starched linen napkin next
to the Baccarat crystal.

A guest is worth the effort....and just because we can.

I have to agree , I too am a baker , and find I too can do things on
average faster than the houswife cook. She lso takes pride in preparing
so Thee ooks provide that instruction.
as for me simple and run of the mill are my favorites still , and I
can make about anythng with or without the book, the old standards are
the choice of many, Steve

On 5/4/06, pltrgyst > wrote:
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2006 20:10:35 -0600, "Mike Avery" >
> wrote:
>
> >Many of her recipes are far too complex for the results. I've owned a
> >bakery and had professional pastry chefs work for me. They look at
>
>her books with incredulity. You don't have to make it that hard to get
> >good results.




How about an example of one of her recipes and one of your bakery's? Say,
> for something simple, like pound cake or something similar?


While I'd love to oblige, I'm a bread guy. My pastry chefs left when we
closed the bakery and took their recipes with them. In any case, since
we're at 7,703 feet above sea level, what works here probably wouldn't work
where you are.

I'll repeat my earlier recommendation that ANY book by Maida Heatter is an
excellent resource. She gets good results, and she explains how you can get
them without losing your hair and your mind in the process.

Craig Claiborne, the long-time food critic for the New York Times and editor
of their famous "New York Times Cookbook" related a story. One of her books
had been written, and had gone through all the pre-press work and was ready
to print. It was scheduled to print in a matter of days when her oven
repairman came in and gave her oven it's annual checkover. (Do you have
your oven checked annually? Neither do I. We should.) After checking it,
he told her, "No real problems, but the thermostat was off 25 degrees. I
re-calibrated it, and you're good to go!"

She immediately called her publisher and had the publisher stop printing
until she could re-bake every recipe in the cookbook. She wanted to be SURE
that the average reader could get the results that she got. Most of us
would have said, "25 degrees? No big deal!" So, she IS careful, just not
totally (as someone else said) anal.

I've tried many of her recipes and I've never been disappointed. Check
libraries, isbn.nu or thrift stores near you. I'm not sure if they are
still in print.

Mike

> have all Ms. Birnbaum's books and I think she has a deservedly first
>rate reputation among her peers and duffers like me for what she does

One thing I don't like about Biranbaums recipes is she makes it
complicated to the experienced kitchen practitioners...Its likely what
she had in mind when writing his books are amateurs...
Unforunately she did not do it well....The complexity of his recipes
intimidates baking enthusiasts ...in the same way she earns the scorn
from the bakery professionals....by being too fussy..

She is not a baker by heart but a food professional working the recipes
in her ivory tower. devoted to likeminded fellows...

When she wrote the bread bible and it appeared, When the opportunity to
browse it in the bookstore came. I just flipped the pages quickly and
it did not get me interested and dump it back to the shelf ,while I
took time to read the contents of the Jeffrey Hamelmans piece...

In article .com>,
says...
> > have all Ms. Birnbaum's books and I think she has a deservedly first
> >rate reputation among her peers and duffers like me for what she does
>
> One thing I don't like about Biranbaums recipes is she makes it
> complicated to the experienced kitchen practitioners...Its likely what
> she had in mind when writing his books are amateurs...
> Unforunately she did not do it well....The complexity of his recipes
> intimidates baking enthusiasts ...in the same way she earns the scorn
> from the bakery professionals....by being too fussy..
>
> She is not a baker by heart but a food professional working the recipes
> in her ivory tower. devoted to likeminded fellows...
>
> When she wrote the bread bible and it appeared, When the opportunity to
> browse it in the bookstore came. I just flipped the pages quickly and
> it did not get me interested and dump it back to the shelf ,while I
> took time to read the contents of the Jeffrey Hamelmans piece...
>
Why assume professionals set the gold standard? While the truly great
professional bakeries/bakers leave me in awe, I can beat eight out of
ten of the ones left over, and I think most serious amateurs can easily
say the same. Most of the reasons that make a successful bakery has
nothing to do with baking, and everything to do with business. So much
for the "scorn of professional bakers," although I would like to know
the source of Roy Basan's information. Like me, he's entitled to his
opinion, but it should be expressed as one.

About excellence: You have to be a little crazy to be in Ms. Biranbaum's
league. If you want a quick and dirty recipe that would be better than
acceptable at any potluck dinner, picknic, etc., then God knows you can
fine enough recipes to sink out of sight in, from the community
organization Xerox published to the huge ocean of mediocrity
"professionally" published.

Why in a group of amateur bakers--amateur meaning, to love--is there
such disdain for authors like Ms. Biranbaum. I just don't understand it;
when you bump into one of her books does someone hold a gun to your head
making you read it?

On 5/6/06, LDR > wrote:

> Why in a group of amateur bakers--amateur meaning, to love--is there
> such disdain for authors like Ms. Biranbaum. I just don't understand it;
> when you bump into one of her books does someone hold a gun to your head
> making you read it?



It seems you are saying that while you are entitled to your opinion, and we
are entitled to your opinion, we are not entitled to our own opinions and
that you won't pay attention to them. I think the reasons were very clearly
expressed. At the risk of boring others, I'll repeat them.

I can't speak for others, but I read a lot. When I see a new book that
looks interesting, I buy it. So, no one held a gun to my head, but I did
buy Rose's books.

And, if someone asks, or states, opinions in the newsgroup, they can expect
to have responses expressed. The basis of newsgroups is the exchange of
information. And you are free to agree or disagree.

You ask why do professionals have disdain for Rose's books?

Several writers here have been pretty plainspoken about the matter. She
makes things more complicated than they need to be to achieve results that
can be much more easily obtained. Further, her complicated processes do not
lead to a greater understanding of what she is explaining.

Is that clear enough for you?

Do professionals set a the gold standard? Some do, some don't. Many times
hobbyists produce better products than professionals. The basic reason is
that the professional has to make money on the product in order to stay in
business. When I was a hobbyist, I was amazed at how much better my olive
bread was than that of a local bakery. Until I priced the olives. I paid
more for the olives in my bread than the local baker charged for a loaf of
bread. He had to cut his costs to make money. Instead of Kalamata olives,
he used California black olives. When I started a bakery, I used a blend of
kalamata and California black olives.

A hobbyist can take all day to make a cake, and that's OK. If a
professional baker does that, he'll be out of business in a big hurry. So,
the professional has to learn how to do things more quickly.

That said, there remain levels of professional bakers. Professional only
means you're getting paid to do something. I've seen professionals at
grocery stores and cheap bakeries produce things that aren't as good as what
can be made with a mix. And I've seen good professionals turn out works of
art that taste great on a production basis. Pierre's in Phoenix (or is it
Scottsdale? And is Pierre's still in business?) is an example of the high
end.

At the end of the bake day, most home bakers can learn from professionals,
though they need to be careful which professionals they learn from. But the
point remains, a good professional can do a better job of making a cake with
far less effort than someone using Rose's book. And a good professional
would see using her book and procedures as a step backwards. The good
professionals working for me saw it that way. I felt that way about her
bread book.

If you like her books, great! You're in good company.

If you don't like her books, that's OK too, and you are far from alone.

Mike

LDR wrote

>Why assume professionals set the gold standard? While the truly great
>professional bakeries/bakers leave me in awe, I can beat eight out of
>ten of the ones left over, and I think most serious amateurs can easily
>say the same. Most of the reasons that make a successful bakery has
>nothing to do with baking, and everything to do with business. So much
>for the "scorn of professional bakers," although I would like to know
>the source of Roy Basan's information. Like me, he's entitled to his
>opinion, but it should be expressed as one.

Its just I don't like her writings as I think I can do it simpler
than what she is doing besides you missed the fact that I am also a
food professional- where I am adept with the craft and the technical
side of baking.

I have been evaluating a lot of bakery related books and most of them
are not to my liking..and that includes Biranbaums crappy stuff..!
Look in comparison I am not a fan of Jeffrey Hamelman but his writings
reflect the competence in his craft! I can't say the same to
Rose.....

If you have a problem with that then try to LIVE WITH IT!


I tell you a lot of my former colleagues in my field did find her books
not worth reading...!
In fact
A few of her books given free as a birthday gift to one of my friends
were immediately sold to second hand bookstore as she has no use for
it.!
She has been doing bakery research in cakes and pastries for decades
also and she finds Biranbaums books laughable ...!

She says that the way she understand baking from the point of food
science and of chemistry is far simpler than what Rose try to apply to
her recipes!

She scoffed at her works and told me that only people who hero worship
her ( Ms Biranbaum)would love to read it and much more use it!
She added ....
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line then why
would rose make it crooked..<G>?

>About excellence: You have to be a little crazy to be in Ms. Biranbaum's
>league. If you want a quick and dirty recipe that would be better than
>acceptable at any potluck dinner, picknic, etc., then God knows you can
>fine enough recipes to sink out of sight in, from the community
>organization Xerox published to the huge ocean of mediocrity
>"professionally" published.

Biranbaums league,,,! Fussy people who can't find the essence of
things from the clutter does not have a good following....IMO

>Why in a group of amateur bakers--amateur meaning, to love--is there
>such disdain for authors like Ms. Biranbaum. I just don't understand it;

First I am not a amateur...in this field...I have more than three
decades of food processing experience, an a lot devoted to R&D..
formulation chemistry., ingredient interaction applied to bakery and
confecionery products.

>when you bump into one of her books does someone hold a gun to your head
>making you read it?

Nope...its my free will.....I just don't find her a worthy recipe
book writer ......

On Wed, 03 May 2006 06:04:56 GMT, Cornofstarchy >
wrote:

>I haven't tried everything in it and I was wondering, for those who have
>used her book, does she live up to all the praise? So far, the first few
>recipes are very high in fat (all that butter and cream!!) and I'm no
>longer sure if the book is worth buying. Some recommendations would be
>appreciated! Thanks!

I'm a home baker who's been at it for a couple of decades.
I buy most of my supplies (chocolate, all kinds of Pro mixes, pans
and tools etc.) from a resturant supply here. I bake a lot less than I
use to but I still do a fair amount for friends and some catering. And
I just like to bake. Its like meditation for me. You name it, I
probably baked it.
I also have a huge collection of books on baking. At least 70+ Pro
and amateur alike. And in different languages. Which is were my adult
kids multilanguage skills pay off. (I'm lucky to get english right.)
I like Rose,s book. It might be a little fussy for some but not a bad
book. Everything I've done from it has come out excellent. And I think
its worth purchasing. Its one of those books that I keep going back
too.
I just looked it up on Amazon and you can get for 12 bucks+a couple of
bucks for shipping. For that kind of money you can't go wrong.
Aloha
David