Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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Old 11-02-2006, 06:27 AM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

I tried a formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls" which goes like the following:

3.0 lb Water 55.00%
3.0 oz Fresh yeast 3.50%
5.5 lb Bread flour 100.00%
2.0 oz Salt 2.25%
2.0 oz Sugar 2.25%
2.0 oz Shortening 2.25%
2.0 oz Egg whites 2.25%

Method: Straight Dough

Mix/knead 10 minutes on second speed using dough hook.
Bake 10 minutes at 425 degrees Fahrenheit

I brushed egg whites over before baking and had a small pot of water in the
oven for the first five minutes.

I think I'll need to either tweek the formula or the method or both.

PROBLEM: the dough was too tough to roll into balls smoothly, so they made
really roughly shaped balls. The dough seemed really rubbery or even
leathery.

Any ideas? Does anybody see any obvous problems with this formula?

Thanks.

Rich Hollenbeck



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Old 11-02-2006, 06:49 AM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

Hello Rich
You did not give the timing for your dough make up., resting period
after mixing, after scaling and rounding, etc.

But anyway
Your recipe appears underhydrated...if you are using a bread
flour...and a lean dough.you need to use a water of at least 60%.
The hard rolls I make for a certain restaurant is slightly similar to
your recipe but has a hydration of 63%.
Another thing is your dough might be warm so promoting the yeast to
rise faster making the dough balls gassy...
Did you ever rest the dough balls before rounding and molding...?
A freshly divided firm dough is easy to round...but if overrested
....it becomes bucky...to mold that it does not form a ball easily...but
deforms to an odd shape.

Controlling the dough temperature is one way to prevent this from
occurring; warm dough rise fast and difficult to mold...
Another thing is if the dough was exposed to the ambient low humidity,
the surface dries up fast making it difficult to round/mold as well.
Cover your dough while resting with a damp cloth.
Another way if the dough balls appear dry to the touch and difficult to
mold
In that condition...I wet my hands slightly with water before I round
/mold the dough...and it helps...

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Old 11-02-2006, 01:46 PM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

chembake,

After considering all you told me so far, My first attempt will be to follow
your first suggestion: change the hydration to about 60% and see how that
changes everything. I went through your reply and inserted my comments
throughout (below):

"chembake" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hello Rich
You did not give the timing for your dough make up., resting period
after mixing, after scaling and rounding, etc.


I benched the dough for about 20 minutes before I portioned it into 2.25 oz
balls. The temperature in the bake shop was about 75 degrees that morning.
The proofing box was set at 80 degrees with 80% humidity. I proofed the
balls about a half hour before baking them.

Your recipe appears underhydrated...you need...at least 60%.


I agree. I need to rework this formula. It is not "mine." I got it from my
baking instructor. I love to use MS-Excel for this purpose. I can simply
change the percentages and voila! The numbers all change accordingly.

Did you ever rest the dough balls before rounding and molding...?
A freshly divided firm dough is easy to round...but if overrested
...it becomes bucky...to mold that it does not form a ball easily...but
deforms to an odd shape.


Yes. As I said in a previous paragraph, I rested it on the bench for about
20 minutes at room temperature with a clean plastic garbage bag over it.

I'm a little unsure what "Bucky" means. I did a Google search on "bucky
dough" and got results like underhydraded, overkneaded, dough that's too
cold, underproofed and overproofed. These web sites told me why the dough
might be bucky but didn't really explain what bucky means. I can infer from
your explanation that bucky means that, "it does not form a ball easily
....but deforms to an odd shape." If that's true, then yes. My dough was
definitely bucky.

Controlling the dough temperature is one way to prevent this from
occurring; warm dough rise fast and difficult to mold...


One problem I have in the mornings is that I have too many things to do to
allow proper rise. Maybe I could mix the dough the night before and
immediately--without allowing any rising--put the dough into an oversized
*lightly* oiled stainless steel bowl with plastic film over it and place it
in the "reach-in" refrigerator overnight. Then in the morning I could take
it out of the refrigerator and as soon as the dough reaches room temperature
form the balls and proof. That could give the dough a chance to rise much
more slowly. Would that help or make the situation worse?

Another thing is if the dough was exposed to the ambient low humidity,
the surface dries up fast making it difficult to round/mold as well.
Cover your dough while resting with a damp cloth.


Southern California is more arid than some other places. I used a piece of
plastic to cover the dough instead of a damp cloth.

Another way if the dough balls appear dry to the touch and difficult to
mold
In that condition...I wet my hands slightly with water before I round
/mold the dough...and it helps...


I do that. Actually, I keep a little cup of water on the bench and, as
needed, I wet my fingers and wet the bench with the tiny bit of water on my
fingers so that the balls don't slide around on the bench when I'm trying to
roll them out. The tiny amount of water seems to give the balls a little
trackion on the bench

After considering all you told me so far, My first guess is to follow your
first suggestion: change the hydration to about 60% and see how that changes
everything.

Thanks a lot!

Rich Hollenbeck



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Old 11-02-2006, 10:37 PM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

Changing the water to 60% helped a lot. But it's still not making hard
rolls. The rolls were delicious, but they weren't hard rolls. So I lowered
the sugar and fat content:

Water 60.00%
Instant yeast 1.50%
Bread flour 100.00%
Salt 2.25%
Sugar 1.13%
Butter 1.13%
Egg whites 2.25%
Yield 168.25%


I'll report back with the results.

Rich

"chembake" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hello Rich
You did not give the timing for your dough make up., resting period
after mixing, after scaling and rounding, etc.

But anyway
Your recipe appears underhydrated...if you are using a bread
flour...and a lean dough.you need to use a water of at least 60%.
The hard rolls I make for a certain restaurant is slightly similar to
your recipe but has a hydration of 63%.
Another thing is your dough might be warm so promoting the yeast to
rise faster making the dough balls gassy...
Did you ever rest the dough balls before rounding and molding...?
A freshly divided firm dough is easy to round...but if overrested
...it becomes bucky...to mold that it does not form a ball easily...but
deforms to an odd shape.

Controlling the dough temperature is one way to prevent this from
occurring; warm dough rise fast and difficult to mold...
Another thing is if the dough was exposed to the ambient low humidity,
the surface dries up fast making it difficult to round/mold as well.
Cover your dough while resting with a damp cloth.
Another way if the dough balls appear dry to the touch and difficult to
mold
In that condition...I wet my hands slightly with water before I round
/mold the dough...and it helps...



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Old 11-02-2006, 11:37 PM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

I benched the dough for about 20 minutes before I portioned it into 2.25 oz
balls. The temperature in the bake shop was about 75 degrees that morning.
The proofing box was set at 80 degrees with 80% humidity. I proofed the
balls about a half hour before baking them.
Your recipe appears underhydrated...you need...at least 60%.

I agree. I need to rework this formula. It is not "mine." I got it from my
baking instructor.


It just came into my mind the nature of some restaurant bread flour...I
worked a few times in that situation where the purchased bread flour(
especially overseas) approximates in gluten strength to all purpose
flour and indeed we use a hydration of below 60% for such the range is
54-57% %.. the protein content of that restaurant bread flour was just
above 11%. But not reaching 12%
Another things is in fast paced situation such as in restaurant
bakery/kitchen the bakers dont bother much if the dough is optimally
hydrated or not. They dont want to make a sticky dough but not also
a very firm one.. In most cases the dough consistency is always in the
firm side.

 I love to use MS-Excel for this purpose. I can simply
change the percentages and voila! The numbers all change accordingly.


When I was a baker in that situation like yours I did not have the
luxury of a computer rather, I just use a pocket calculator to do my
fast computations from scaling up to scaling down of batch weight as
dictated by the executive chef .

The night before we are given the number of pieces of the different
bread to be made and knowing the scaling weight for each unit we
compute to get the total dough weight then Calculate the amount of
flour based such dough weight then we can derive the ratios of the
other ingredients based on the formula ratios we had in our recipe
files.

In bakers percentage, the flour is the base ; that is considered as
100%
Regardless if you vary the amount of other ingredients such as water
that is the only material that you have to change the rest are as is.

3.0 lb Water 55.00%
3.0 oz Fresh yeast 3.50%
5.5 lb Bread flour 100.00%
2.0 oz Salt 2.25%
2.0 oz Sugar 2.25%
2.0 oz Shortening 2.25%
2.0 oz Egg whites 2.25%
Therefore if you change the water to 60% you will use the same ratios
for other ingredients such as for example the salt remains
2.25...etc...
In many cases as the softer dough appears to ferment faster we reduce
the yeast slightly to compensate for such.
Its different if you are using the true percent where varying one
ingredients will correspondingly change the ratios of the other
components .

Anyway true percent is not used much by bakers but in other food
processing systems.

I'm a little unsure what "Bucky" means. I did a Google search on "bucky
dough" and got results like underhydraded, overkneaded, dough that's too
cold, underproofed and overproofed. These web sites told me why the dough
might be bucky but didn't really explain what bucky means. I can infer from
your explanation that bucky means that, "it does not form a ball easily

....but deforms to an odd shape." If that's true, then yes. My dough
was
definitely bucky.

Its nice to see a resourceful person who was able to comprehend the
word seldom understood by beginning bakers. Yes if the dough tends to
remain elastic and does not maintain its shape after molding due to
many factors that you mentioned above its considered as bucky. A dough
like that is difficult to mold and usually results in a misshapen
appearance in the finished bread..

Controlling the dough temperature is one way to prevent this from
occurring; warm dough rise fast and difficult to mold...
One problem I have in the mornings is that I have too many things to do to
allow proper rise. Maybe I could mix the dough the night before and
immediately--without allowing any rising--put the dough into an oversized

*lightly* oiled stainless steel bowl with plastic film over it and
place it
in the "reach-in" refrigerator overnight. Then in the morning I could take
it out of the refrigerator and as soon as the dough reaches room temperature
form the balls and proof. That could give the dough a chance to rise much
more slowly. Would that help or make the situation worse?


Mixing the dough the night before is one option as it will result in
better tasting bread due to the longer fermentation. Unfortunately most
restaurant kitchen has limited space for such unlike bakeries. When I
was working in a hotel and restaurant bakery some twenty years back
where many things are done such as breadbaking, cakes, and pastries ,
even chocolate items we have to use whatever available space, the
elbows of the pastry cook and bakers often met grin and we have to
work out fast necessitating the constant use of short time dough
system. In our breads.
In all those experiences, I never find the bread from hotels and
restaurant to be good tasting ( except when freshly made) if compared
to what I experienced in the bakery where the dough is made slowly and
had ample time for fermentation.


Rich,
Further In those kind of bread made in house
We used the short time dough system like what you are doing right
now. The dough temperature right after mixing was 29 degree C. and the
room temperature was 25 degrees.C
What we do after the dough is mixed its allowed to rest for 15-20
minutes then scaled up and rounded, then given intermediate proof of 15
minutes before final molding.
It is proofed for 30-45 minutes then baked with lots of steam at 230
degree C. at the start; the damper is pulled out halfway then baked dry
until done. Baking time is in about 20 minutes.
... But often times my hydration for hard rolls is in the realm of 60%.
As we are using mostly higher protein bread flour ( around 12-13%)..

A hard roll if properly made should have a slightly thick crispy
crust with soft crumb..It should have very slight chewiness
A too firm roll dough tends to make a chewier hard rolls that many
customers dont like and wont even finish eating one but just
leave it on the dinner plate...
That incident gives the bread baker a food for thought if he is doing
his bread the right way.



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Old 12-02-2006, 12:27 AM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

Thank you very much for your insightful advice. I'm studying it now.

I'm seriously thinking about buying the book, The Bread Baker's Apprentice:
Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread by Peter Reinhart (ISBN:
1580082688). I've read mostly good reviews about it. Any thoughts?

Rich


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Old 12-02-2006, 12:46 AM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

I'm seriously thinking about buying the book, The Bread Baker's Apprentice:
..Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread by Peter Reinhart (ISBN:
1580082688). I've read mostly good reviews about it. Any thoughts?


For a home baker that is a must...but for an institutional baker(
restaurant or hotels) the book by Wayne Giesslen titled Professional
Baking is what I recommend as the recipes and methods there reflect
whatis being used in the bakery.

Another one is Quantity Food Prepaation..in the bakery section .
..unfortunately I cannot remember the authors name.
It includes the description of what a good hard and soft roll should
be..

When I was still connected to a baking school as a part time teacher I
recommend it to my students.
Another books highly recommended to beginning bakers for institution is
Practical Baking by William Sultan.
As well as the advanced book The Pastry Chef by the same author..

I had browsed that Sultain book some 10 years back I vividly remember
the good points mentioned in making quality bread for institutional
use...including good versions of hard rolls...
In fact the bakery manager of the hotel restaurant which I describe in
my previous post have those books in his offfice library:
The works of Giesslen, and Sultan...
Check it out in your nearest library...Unforunately I cannot remember
its ISBN number but the author and the title is correct.

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Old 12-02-2006, 12:53 AM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

chembake wrote:

Another one is Quantity Food Prepaation..in the bakery section .
.unfortunately I cannot remember the authors name.
It includes the description of what a good hard and soft roll should
be..


Are you referring to this book?
Quantity Food Production, Planning, and Management

http://www.chipsbooks.com/quanprod.htm

--
Reg

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Old 12-02-2006, 01:44 AM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

Are you referring to this book?
Quantity Food Production, Planning, and Management


http://www.chipsbooks.com/quanprod.htm



Hmmn...that author sounds familiair .....might be ......but the book
cover is not the same from the editions I browsed in the early 1990s.
Yes it was in the bakeshop section where the description of what a good
bread rolls should be...
I am not sure about the breadth of the cookery related discussion in
that latest edition if compared to the earlier ones.
Its likely that in recent edition new ideas about quantity food
production management is emphasized rather than the techniques of
preparing fdifferent ood products in institutional quantities ...

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Old 12-02-2006, 07:33 AM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

chembake wrote:
Are you referring to this book?
Quantity Food Production, Planning, and Management


http://www.chipsbooks.com/quanprod.htm


Hmmn...that author sounds familiair .....might be ......but the book
cover is not the same from the editions I browsed in the early 1990s.


Earlier editions had an orange cover with black lettering. Drawings
instead of photo. Kotschevar was the only author listed back then.

The original title was "Standards, Principles and Techniques in QUANTITY
FOOD PRODUCTION"

Pastorio


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Earlier editions had an orange cover with black lettering. Drawings
instead of photo. Kotschevar was the only author listed back then.


The original title was "Standards, Principles and Techniques in QUANTITY
FOOD PRODUCTION"


Yeah...that title is more like it!...I remember there was one author...
Thanks Bob....I think Reg description suit as well to the later
edition....I have not seen a copy of that book for years...

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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

"chembake" wrote in message
oups.com...
Changing the water to 60% helped a lot. But it's still not making hard

rolls. The rolls were delicious, but they weren't hard rolls. So I
lowered
the sugar and fat content:

Water 60.00%
Instant yeast 1.50%
Bread flour 100.00%
Salt 2.25%
Sugar 1.13%
Butter 1.13%
Egg whites 2.25%
Yield 168.25%


I'll report back with the results.


Rich

I am not sure how you describe a hard roll in your place. but in mine
just what I mentioned in my recent post. It should have a crisp crust
with sort interior and slightly chewy to masticate.

Is that similar to what you are expecting from your bread.?

In my expeience a dough that has lower hydration tends to form a really
hard roll; hard to bite and to chew (all the way)...but that is not
considered a quality bread from our standards...


You're right. I'm looking for a soft interior, but when I crunch into the
outer crust with my mouth, I don't want the roll to flatten down like a
hotdog bun. I think it should somewhat keep its shape. I increased the
hydration to 100% and reduced the fat and sugar to 1.125% or 1.13% but I'm
still getting that soft feeling from these DELICIOUS rolls. I raised the
heat to 450 but that didn't help much either. I mixed a little water into
the egg whites that I wash over the outside. Still. My next step will be to
reduce the yeast a little. The original recipe called for fresh yeast but I
don't have any. I got a large quantity of instant dry yeast from the Sam's
Club so I converted the amount and have been using that. Originally it
called for 3 oz of fresh yeast so I used 1 oz of instant. It's rising like
crazy. With more hydration I probably don't need as much yeast. I'll try
it anyway.

*** By the way, I'm doing all this at home. I wonder if it's the oven
itself. At work we use a convection oven. We don't have steam injection
there either but we use the "pan of water trick" just like I do at home.
I'm trying to tweek this formula to get a better product, but I think I
might need to try it at work before I go much further.


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Old 12-02-2006, 07:58 PM posted to rec.food.baking
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Default Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

You're right. I'm looking for a soft interior, but when I crunch into the
outer crust with my mouth, I don't want the roll to flatten down like a
hotdog bun. I think it should somewhat keep its shape. I increased the
hydration to 100% and reduced the fat and sugar to 1.125% or 1.13% but I'm
still getting that soft feeling from these DELICIOUS rolls


A proper hard roll is made with a strong flour,mixed ,fermented and
baked properly. Increasing the hydration above 60 % is
counterproductive, you are going beyond the right standard for such
roll.
The recipe is simple somewhat like Vienna Bread with minimal sugar and
fat. These latter ingredients are added to minimize the crust thickness
that is not desirable for rolls.
Another way of doing the hard roll recipe is make it in sponge and
dough system.70/30 or 70% of flour is in the sponge and 30% in the
dough stage but I doubt if you have time for that..
Regarding yeast it makes no difference as long as the usage rate is
properly converted for a particular yeast.

One of the important requirements of a good hard roll is presence of
steam during the initial stage of baking. Convection oven due to its
drying effect needs more of it.

I have never been able to make the best hard rolls with that kind of
convection oven without steam injection....
I have used a Revent convection type oven with steam injection where
we load the entire rack and the rolls come out perfect.

Therefore in conclusiong don't be enthusiastic about hydration but keep
it in mind that shape, resliency, and crustiness is a function of
proper hydration, fermentation and baking process assuming mixing
condtions is constant.



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