A couple of years ago, it was determined that some persistant digestive
problems I had were due to allergies to wheat and corn. When I eliminated
them (and that's not easy!), I improved greatly. Good, but not a happy
situation for a bread lover! I later learned that some people allergic to
wheat can safely eat spelt, and tentatively tried some products, finding
that I could handle them much better than wheat.

I wasn't particularly pleased with any commercial spelt baked good, other
than one decent yeast- and dairy-free white spelt bread, with a sourdough
style. I bought some flour and started to experiment on my own. I learned
that I could handle white spelt, but whole grain gave me similar problems
as wheat, although to a lesser extent.

The problem is, I haven't been able to really bake well with it (not that
I was much of a cook with wheat, either.) Quick breads and drop biscuits
come out quite well, as do shortbread style cookies and usually, scones.
Yeast breads generally fail miserably, way too dense, not rising or
staying "up" properly. Cookies like oatmeal-raisin and chocolate chip rise
in the oven, but collapse before they are finished baking and firm up.
They taste great, but are flat and chewey, even tough, not the style I
intended! In general, I have found that it takes a little more flour or
less liquid, and probably more chemical leavening than AP wheat flour, but
I don't have the bakery experience that some of the folks on here have, to
analyze the problems and work around them.

I'd appreciate any suggestions from the group!

Thanks,

Dave

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
ea.net...
> A couple of years ago, it was determined that some persistant digestive
> problems I had were due to allergies to wheat and corn. When I eliminated
> them (and that's not easy!), I improved greatly. Good, but not a happy
> situation for a bread lover! I later learned that some people allergic to
> wheat can safely eat spelt, and tentatively tried some products, finding
> that I could handle them much better than wheat.
>
> I wasn't particularly pleased with any commercial spelt baked good, other
> than one decent yeast- and dairy-free white spelt bread, with a sourdough
> style. I bought some flour and started to experiment on my own. I learned
> that I could handle white spelt, but whole grain gave me similar problems
> as wheat, although to a lesser extent.
>
> The problem is, I haven't been able to really bake well with it (not that
> I was much of a cook with wheat, either.) Quick breads and drop biscuits
> come out quite well, as do shortbread style cookies and usually, scones.
> Yeast breads generally fail miserably, way too dense, not rising or
> staying "up" properly. Cookies like oatmeal-raisin and chocolate chip rise
> in the oven, but collapse before they are finished baking and firm up.
> They taste great, but are flat and chewey, even tough, not the style I
> intended! In general, I have found that it takes a little more flour or
> less liquid, and probably more chemical leavening than AP wheat flour, but
> I don't have the bakery experience that some of the folks on here have, to
> analyze the problems and work around them.
>
Your problems with wheat flour are probably due to the gluten content which
is much lower in spelt. Unfortunately, it is this ingredient that allows
bread to rise and trap the carbon dioxide. High gluten bread flours are too
strong for cakes etc., and so cake flour has a low gluten content. Spelt
has a low gluten content so makes lousy bread, unless mixed with some normal
wheat flour for support.
Graham

"graham" > wrote in message
news:M0hGc.29602$WB5.13646@pd7tw2no...
>
> "Dave Bell" > wrote in message
> ea.net...
> > A couple of years ago, it was determined that some persistant digestive
> > problems I had were due to allergies to wheat and corn. When I
eliminated
> > them (and that's not easy!), I improved greatly. Good, but not a happy
> > situation for a bread lover! I later learned that some people allergic
to
> > wheat can safely eat spelt, and tentatively tried some products, finding
> > that I could handle them much better than wheat.
> >
> > I wasn't particularly pleased with any commercial spelt baked good,
other
> > than one decent yeast- and dairy-free white spelt bread, with a
sourdough
> > style. I bought some flour and started to experiment on my own. I
learned
> > that I could handle white spelt, but whole grain gave me similar
problems
> > as wheat, although to a lesser extent.
> >
> > The problem is, I haven't been able to really bake well with it (not
that
> > I was much of a cook with wheat, either.) Quick breads and drop biscuits
> > come out quite well, as do shortbread style cookies and usually, scones.
> > Yeast breads generally fail miserably, way too dense, not rising or
> > staying "up" properly. Cookies like oatmeal-raisin and chocolate chip
rise
> > in the oven, but collapse before they are finished baking and firm up.
> > They taste great, but are flat and chewey, even tough, not the style I
> > intended! In general, I have found that it takes a little more flour or
> > less liquid, and probably more chemical leavening than AP wheat flour,
but
> > I don't have the bakery experience that some of the folks on here have,
to
> > analyze the problems and work around them.
> >
> Your problems with wheat flour are probably due to the gluten content
which
> is much lower in spelt. Unfortunately, it is this ingredient that allows
> bread to rise and trap the carbon dioxide. High gluten bread flours are
too
> strong for cakes etc., and so cake flour has a low gluten content. Spelt
> has a low gluten content so makes lousy bread, unless mixed with some
normal
> wheat flour for support.
> Graham
>
>
Thing is, the OP can't eat wheat. I've seen raw gluten in the health food
section of my local grocery store.
~Peggy

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, graham wrote:

> Your problems with wheat flour are probably due to the gluten content which
> is much lower in spelt. Unfortunately, it is this ingredient that allows
> bread to rise and trap the carbon dioxide. High gluten bread flours are too
> strong for cakes etc., and so cake flour has a low gluten content. Spelt
> has a low gluten content so makes lousy bread, unless mixed with some normal
> wheat flour for support.
> Graham

Spelt does of course contain gluten, and I'm not so sure there is less of
it, per se, but I understand it is more fragile, therefore less suitable
for breads. Another side of the gluten/allergy issue is that there are two
proteins that form the gluten, when worked in the presence of water. I am
given to understand that spelt and wheat share one of the two identically,
but the other protein differs between them. It may be the latter protein
that I am primarily allergic to...

At any rate, I do want to avoid adding wheat flour, just to increase the
gluten. What other ways are there to "toughen" a bread dough? Increased
working/kneading time, perhaps?

Dave

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
ea.net...
> On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, graham wrote:
>
> > Your problems with wheat flour are probably due to the gluten content
which
> > is much lower in spelt. Unfortunately, it is this ingredient that
allows
> > bread to rise and trap the carbon dioxide. High gluten bread flours are
too
> > strong for cakes etc., and so cake flour has a low gluten content.
Spelt
> > has a low gluten content so makes lousy bread, unless mixed with some
normal
> > wheat flour for support.
> > Graham
>
> Spelt does of course contain gluten, and I'm not so sure there is less of
> it, per se, but I understand it is more fragile, therefore less suitable
> for breads. Another side of the gluten/allergy issue is that there are two
> proteins that form the gluten, when worked in the presence of water. I am
> given to understand that spelt and wheat share one of the two identically,
> but the other protein differs between them. It may be the latter protein
> that I am primarily allergic to...
>
> At any rate, I do want to avoid adding wheat flour, just to increase the
> gluten. What other ways are there to "toughen" a bread dough? Increased
> working/kneading time, perhaps?
>
> Dave
You could try it, I suppose. However, I've never had much success with
spelt in other than a minor proportion of the total flour content. High
spelt content breads have, for me, always turned out cakey.
Repost on alt.bread.recipes where you might get more specialised answers.
There are several experts there who might be able to help.
Graham

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, graham wrote:

> You could try it, I suppose. However, I've never had much success with
> spelt in other than a minor proportion of the total flour content. High
> spelt content breads have, for me, always turned out cakey.
> Repost on alt.bread.recipes where you might get more specialised answers.
> There are several experts there who might be able to help.
> Graham

Yhanks, I'll try that. And yes, that's pretty much what happens with my
breads. Cakey, and dense at that. Is it the same sort of mechanism that
causes cookies to collapse, too?

Dave

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
ea.net...
> On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, graham wrote:
>
> > You could try it, I suppose. However, I've never had much success with
> > spelt in other than a minor proportion of the total flour content. High
> > spelt content breads have, for me, always turned out cakey.
> > Repost on alt.bread.recipes where you might get more specialised
answers.
> > There are several experts there who might be able to help.
> > Graham
>
> Yhanks, I'll try that. And yes, that's pretty much what happens with my
> breads. Cakey, and dense at that. Is it the same sort of mechanism that
> causes cookies to collapse, too?
>
I don't know. On a.b.r. there are a couple of professional bakers who might
be able to answer this one.
Graham

>Dave Bell
>Date: 7/5/2004 8:47 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, graham wrote:
>
>> Your problems with wheat flour are probably due to the gluten content which
>> is much lower in spelt. Unfortunately, it is this ingredient that allows
>> bread to rise and trap the carbon dioxide. High gluten bread flours are
>too
>> strong for cakes etc., and so cake flour has a low gluten content. Spelt
>> has a low gluten content so makes lousy bread, unless mixed with some
>normal
>> wheat flour for support.
>> Graham
>
>Spelt does of course contain gluten, and I'm not so sure there is less of
>it, per se, but I understand it is more fragile, therefore less suitable
>for breads. Another side of the gluten/allergy issue is that there are two
>proteins that form the gluten, when worked in the presence of water. I am
>given to understand that spelt and wheat share one of the two identically,
>but the other protein differs between them. It may be the latter protein
>that I am primarily allergic to...
>
>At any rate, I do want to avoid adding wheat flour, just to increase the
>gluten. What other ways are there to "toughen" a bread dough? Increased
>working/kneading time, perhaps?
>
>Dave
>
I have never used this, but from everything I've read, you'll have bewtter luck
doing quick breads that don't rely on yeast or with enriched sandwich breads.

Farro, an Old Italian Favorite Returns
http://www.farro.com/

http://www.italiancookingandliving.c...ing/farro.html

spelt-bread from fatfree.com: the low fat vegetarian recipe archive

All Recipes | Bread | Very Simple Spelt Bread
http://bread.allrecipes.com/az/VrySimplSpltBrd.asp

http://www.fatfree.com/recipes/breads-quick/spelt-bread

Easy Vegan Spelt Bread

http://vegweb.com/food/bread/3053.shtml

> I don't know. On a.b.r. there are a couple of professional bakers who
might
> be able to answer this one.
> Graham

Spelt is considered an ancestor to modern wheat. Like wheat, it is milled
into whole grain and white flour. Spelt proteins do form gluten, but spelt
gluten is weak and very easily overworked. Spelt bread dough should be
mixed for ony a short period of time (just until wet and uniform) to avoid
overworking and tearing the gluten. Spelt has a lower water absorption
value than wheat, so less water is needed when forming batters and doughs.
YES...do expect a lower volume and stronger flavour from baked goods with
spelt.

> I don't know. On a.b.r. there are a couple of professional bakers who
might
> be able to answer this one.
> Graham

Spelt is considered an ancestor to modern wheat. Like wheat, it is milled
into whole grain and white flour. Spelt proteins do form gluten, but spelt
gluten is weak and very easily overworked. Spelt bread dough should be
mixed for ony a short period of time (just until wet and uniform) to avoid
overworking and tearing the gluten. Spelt has a lower water absorption
value than wheat, so less water is needed when forming batters and doughs.
YES...do expect a lower volume and stronger flavour from baked goods with
spelt.

one last thing i forgot, once you have punch the dough, here is where you
can tightly shape it, but again be sure not to overwork it, then proof it
while shaped.

one last thing i forgot, once you have punch the dough, here is where you
can tightly shape it, but again be sure not to overwork it, then proof it
while shaped.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Charles Baker wrote:

> one last thing i forgot, once you have punch the dough, here is where you
> can tightly shape it, but again be sure not to overwork it, then proof it
> while shaped.

Thanks, Charles! Your first reply crossed my reading your other notes.
So, it's not a matter of working the dough longer, to toughen the gluten,
but shorter, to avoid overworking it. I have found it to require less
water, as you said. I'll try again!

Dave

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
rea.net...
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Charles Baker wrote:
>
> > one last thing i forgot, once you have punch the dough, here is where
you
> > can tightly shape it, but again be sure not to overwork it, then proof
it
> > while shaped.
>
> Thanks, Charles! Your first reply crossed my reading your other notes.
> So, it's not a matter of working the dough longer, to toughen the gluten,
> but shorter, to avoid overworking it. I have found it to require less
> water, as you said. I'll try again!
>
> Dave

There is a recipe for spelt bread in "The Bread Book" by Linda Collister &
Anthony Blake, an excellent book. The method used produces about as holey a
bread as this flour will make.
HTH
Graham

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
rea.net...
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Charles Baker wrote:
>
> > one last thing i forgot, once you have punch the dough, here is where
you
> > can tightly shape it, but again be sure not to overwork it, then proof
it
> > while shaped.
>
> Thanks, Charles! Your first reply crossed my reading your other notes.
> So, it's not a matter of working the dough longer, to toughen the gluten,
> but shorter, to avoid overworking it. I have found it to require less
> water, as you said. I'll try again!
>
> Dave

There is a recipe for spelt bread in "The Bread Book" by Linda Collister &
Anthony Blake, an excellent book. The method used produces about as holey a
bread as this flour will make.
HTH
Graham

Recipes that use spelt flour:
http://search.allrecipes.com/recipe/...spelt&lnkid=65
~Peggy

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
ea.net...
> A couple of years ago, it was determined that some persistant digestive
> problems I had were due to allergies to wheat and corn. When I eliminated
> them (and that's not easy!), I improved greatly. Good, but not a happy
> situation for a bread lover! I later learned that some people allergic to
> wheat can safely eat spelt, and tentatively tried some products, finding
> that I could handle them much better than wheat.
>
> I wasn't particularly pleased with any commercial spelt baked good, other
> than one decent yeast- and dairy-free white spelt bread, with a sourdough
> style. I bought some flour and started to experiment on my own. I learned
> that I could handle white spelt, but whole grain gave me similar problems
> as wheat, although to a lesser extent.
>
> The problem is, I haven't been able to really bake well with it (not that
> I was much of a cook with wheat, either.) Quick breads and drop biscuits
> come out quite well, as do shortbread style cookies and usually, scones.
> Yeast breads generally fail miserably, way too dense, not rising or
> staying "up" properly. Cookies like oatmeal-raisin and chocolate chip rise
> in the oven, but collapse before they are finished baking and firm up.
> They taste great, but are flat and chewey, even tough, not the style I
> intended! In general, I have found that it takes a little more flour or
> less liquid, and probably more chemical leavening than AP wheat flour, but
> I don't have the bakery experience that some of the folks on here have, to
> analyze the problems and work around them.
>
> I'd appreciate any suggestions from the group!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave

Recipes that use spelt flour:
http://search.allrecipes.com/recipe/...spelt&lnkid=65
~Peggy

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
ea.net...
> A couple of years ago, it was determined that some persistant digestive
> problems I had were due to allergies to wheat and corn. When I eliminated
> them (and that's not easy!), I improved greatly. Good, but not a happy
> situation for a bread lover! I later learned that some people allergic to
> wheat can safely eat spelt, and tentatively tried some products, finding
> that I could handle them much better than wheat.
>
> I wasn't particularly pleased with any commercial spelt baked good, other
> than one decent yeast- and dairy-free white spelt bread, with a sourdough
> style. I bought some flour and started to experiment on my own. I learned
> that I could handle white spelt, but whole grain gave me similar problems
> as wheat, although to a lesser extent.
>
> The problem is, I haven't been able to really bake well with it (not that
> I was much of a cook with wheat, either.) Quick breads and drop biscuits
> come out quite well, as do shortbread style cookies and usually, scones.
> Yeast breads generally fail miserably, way too dense, not rising or
> staying "up" properly. Cookies like oatmeal-raisin and chocolate chip rise
> in the oven, but collapse before they are finished baking and firm up.
> They taste great, but are flat and chewey, even tough, not the style I
> intended! In general, I have found that it takes a little more flour or
> less liquid, and probably more chemical leavening than AP wheat flour, but
> I don't have the bakery experience that some of the folks on here have, to
> analyze the problems and work around them.
>
> I'd appreciate any suggestions from the group!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, graham wrote:

> There is a recipe for spelt bread in "The Bread Book" by Linda Collister &
> Anthony Blake, an excellent book. The method used produces about as holey a
> bread as this flour will make.
> HTH
> Graham

I'll check the library, thank you!

Dave

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Peggy wrote:

> Recipes that use spelt flour:
> http://search.allrecipes.com/recipe/...spelt&lnkid=65
> ~Peggy

Thanks, Peggy! There are some good picks there, that I'll have to try
out.

After reading Charles Baker's suggestions earlier in this thread, I
compared to the Spelt Bread I recipe at Peggy's link.

"1 Stir yeast and sugar, gradually adding warm water. Add about half the
flour and the salt and beat well. Add the remainder of the flour
gradually to acquire a stiff dough. It may require more or less than 7
cups.

2 Knead 5 to 10 minutes until smooth and elastic."

Now, does this seem to be 1) too dry, and 2) too long working the dough?

Dave

Something else that you can try, that would give your dough a little more
lift:
Mix the dough as you noted, but instead of adding the salt to the mix at the
start, let the dough sit for approx 45 mins. to 1 hour before lightly mixing
in the salt. at that point, then knead in the salt. Let the dough sit
again for a few hours to ferment. Then shape, proof, and bake.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, graham wrote:

> There is a recipe for spelt bread in "The Bread Book" by Linda Collister &
> Anthony Blake, an excellent book. The method used produces about as holey a
> bread as this flour will make.
> HTH
> Graham

Well - not at all a bad bread! I tried a batch this evening, and was quite
pleased. The texture and "holiness" are very good, better than I have ever
encountered with Spelt. I think I will let it ferment a bit longer next
time, possibly increase the yeast a bit (+50%?), and add some sugar. The
flavor of the loaf is delicate, and could use a little more yeastiness,
but a very satisfactiry start! I did follow Charles' suggestion, to leave
the salt out until after the first rise. The extra working required to
stir it in didn't seem to cause any problems, and if I understand it
correctly, this helps in the rise and gluten build-up.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Dave

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, graham wrote:

> There is a recipe for spelt bread in "The Bread Book" by Linda Collister &
> Anthony Blake, an excellent book. The method used produces about as holey a
> bread as this flour will make.
> HTH
> Graham

Well - not at all a bad bread! I tried a batch this evening, and was quite
pleased. The texture and "holiness" are very good, better than I have ever
encountered with Spelt. I think I will let it ferment a bit longer next
time, possibly increase the yeast a bit (+50%?), and add some sugar. The
flavor of the loaf is delicate, and could use a little more yeastiness,
but a very satisfactiry start! I did follow Charles' suggestion, to leave
the salt out until after the first rise. The extra working required to
stir it in didn't seem to cause any problems, and if I understand it
correctly, this helps in the rise and gluten build-up.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Dave

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, graham wrote:

> There is a recipe for spelt bread in "The Bread Book" by Linda Collister &
> Anthony Blake, an excellent book. The method used produces about as holey a
> bread as this flour will make.
> HTH
> Graham

This recipe worked out very well, particularly for a near first attempt! I
followed Collister's insstructions (originally adapted from Doves Farm's
recipe) closely, except making 3 smaller loaves, in 3x5x8" tins. Nice
crumb, with small only bubbles, but a good texture and light flavor. I put
a couple of pics of the result up:

http://www.zippyimages.com/77644.html
http://www.zippyimages.com/77645.html

Dave

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, graham wrote:

> There is a recipe for spelt bread in "The Bread Book" by Linda Collister &
> Anthony Blake, an excellent book. The method used produces about as holey a
> bread as this flour will make.
> HTH
> Graham

This recipe worked out very well, particularly for a near first attempt! I
followed Collister's insstructions (originally adapted from Doves Farm's
recipe) closely, except making 3 smaller loaves, in 3x5x8" tins. Nice
crumb, with small only bubbles, but a good texture and light flavor. I put
a couple of pics of the result up:

http://www.zippyimages.com/77644.html
http://www.zippyimages.com/77645.html

Dave