Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 15-01-2006, 01:59 AM posted to rec.food.baking
Bob (this one)
 
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-L. wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:

Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.

Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
water activity in the general food processing...


No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
issue. But it's not the only issue.

Pastorio



I was a molecular biologist for 15 years and have had advanced
coursework in micro, mycology and molecular biology, to name a few. I
have never heard of "water activity" as being a factor to be considered
in whether or not an organism will culture on a particular medium.
Must be a food science term he's hung up on,


It is. It's essentially an index about how much water is available to
colonizing organisms. Not how much water is in the particular food, but
how much of it isn't bound. In food science, the lower the index number
(ranges from 0.0 [no water] to 1.00 [water]), the less water there is
for the metabolic needs of any critters; so reduced viability for
culturing in food products. Points to shelf life and storage
requirements. High water activity and low pH means refrigeration.

"Control of water activity (rather than water content) is very important
in the food industry as low water activity prevents microbial growth
(increasing shelf life), causes large changes in textural
characteristics such as crispness and crunchiness (e.g. the sound
produced by 'crunching' breakfast cereal disappearing above about aw =
0.65) and changes the rate of chemical reactions (increasing hydrophobe
lipophilic reactions but reducing hydrophile aqueous-diffusion-limited
reactions)."
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/activity.html

or something (honestly I
have never encountered the term.) His entire diatribe seems pretty
simplistic and, frankly, dumb, to me, as so many factors need to be
considered - pH, available sugars, carbs sources, salt concentration,
light, heat, aeration, etc.


Exactly. That's why I said there needs to be more consideration than
merely water activity.

Pastorio

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Old 15-01-2006, 02:00 AM posted to rec.food.baking
Bob (this one)
 
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Dave Bell wrote:
Bob, Roy (Chembake) often has a lot to offer here in these groups.
He does have a great deal of experience, and his insights from a
biochemical point of view are frequently very helpful.


I can see that he's devoted a good deal of thought to it.

But, don't get into an argument with him. As I believe Sam Clemens put
it, it is like wrestling with a pig: you get muddy and the pig enjoys it!


I have several good recipes for...

Nevermind LOL

Thanks.

Pastorio
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Old 15-01-2006, 06:05 AM posted to rec.food.baking
chembake
 
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Must be a food science term he's hung up on, or something (honestly I
have never encountered the term


Well that is the difference...a molecular biologist don't consider
food to be an important subject to study but the microbes
itself.....grin..

I was a molecular biologist for 15 years and have had advanced
coursework in micro, mycology and molecular biology, to name a few. I
have never heard of "water activity" as being a factor to be considered
in whether or not an organism will culture on a particular medium.


Really ?
During my microbiology course works..in the university days ,.my first
teacher was a molecular biologist..He talks what we consider an
abstruse..language. to the class that he failed to get us interested
in the subject matter as he delve more in theoretical aspect of cell
structure, metabolism, genetic matter and other deeper aspects of cell
biology... without even relating its importance to practical
application....
One of my classmates asked the instructor....what is the importance of
this theoretical cell biology discussion to food processing...we know
already the basics of cell biology and biochemistry and we are not
graduate students ....that we need to tackle your specialized
discussion head on... ...?

There seems to be a gulf that hampers our absorption of the subject
matter.....Can anybody do the lecture to our own level...? ..The
,majority of the class supported the demand therefore .
..The dean relented as he realized his mistake of assigning a
specialist person...therefore organized for another teacher to handle
our microbiology class. The guy that replaced was a food scientist
..(so much the better. We agreed)..He ( the new teacher incidentally
was actually practicing food microbiologist .....Therefore that
eliminated the' gap'..and enabled the class to realize the
importance of such terms for example the water activity in food
processing

.) His entire diatribe seems pretty
simplistic and, franky, dumb, to me, as so many factors need to be
considered - pH, available sugars, carbs sources, salt concentration,

..light, heat, aeration, etc.

LOL!...silly you....
If you consider this dumb ,,,,,its your own fault as you don't grasp
the concept of water activity from the point in food science ....

As science become more specialized....there are common terminologies
that have different meanings or interpretation from the different
disciplines


Now regarding the other parameters that is also considered....but what
is found in the food formulations is the targeted water activity...the
formulation will indicate what are the available carbs, salt
concentration, and other lesser factors that can affect microbial
growth

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Old 15-01-2006, 06:12 AM posted to rec.food.baking
chembake
 
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chembake wrote:
I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I meant I
didn't understand the sentence.



You have no idea how I or my people worked. You have no idea about
anything of my professional experience. Please save your insults.


Well everybody had its own preconception what a chef is
....unfortunately its always not good...as some of the most popular
jokes are denigrating in nature...
BTW
It is being asked in some circles ...why does the chef wears a toque...

One funny answers are .... to hide his shortness and to look tall to
other people...and also to look smart and respectable even if his
head is full of hot air..!.




Besides What does being a food writer have to do with food safety
rules...?



It has only this: in order to be considered a reliable source by the
publications I've written for, the information must be good and the
sources must be checkable. You should read my article about "Food
Additives" in the Oxford University Press Encyclopedia of American food
and Drink. It's partly about food safety.


Really....
Previously I read a lot of books about food additives and food safety
but never heard your name.. I am sorry...


Please stop trying to diminish me and my background. I don't really care
what you think of chefs and writers. That's your opinion and appears
only to be negative in an attempt to make yourself seem more
knowledgeable.


Hmmnn......I still don't consider myself to be that
knowledgeable....nor I want to denigrate your status an English major
that became a food writer or science teacher who became a chef....
we are in the same boat
I am just a chemist that became a baker...then a /patissier / and
lately a confectioner



During your formative yearsin the kitchen I doubt if such NASA
derived food safety rules did ever came to the minds of your
mentors....and if you absorbed the habits of your traditional
teachers ...its unlikely that you will change instantly due to
changing trends...in food processing rules.. I had met and seen so
many chefs in my career ....an its often that in the old and highly
experience chefs ,old habits are difficult to change specially
for high ranking chefs that have egos as huge as a blimp.grin..



What are your opinions about bakers with so little confidence in
themselves that they need to try to insult others by innuendo?


Insult...?
..little confidence....? that is a presumption....
Bakers normally are not as egocentric as chefs..but we banter a
lot....there is no point being serious when we 're just overgrown
kids that want to play with the dough for a living....grin



Pastries filled with cheeses and custards are what I was referring to.
Moderate water activity and good base for bacterial action and molding
anyway.


That sounds sensible.



I own a commercial food processing business operated with a very careful
and professional system. We make infused and flavored oils, seasoned and
infused vinegars, fruit juice curds, chocolates, breads and pastries
(filled and unfilled), hot sauces, brine mixes and seasonal products.
I've consulted with many food scientists in the course of formulating
these products and have gained a good understanding of what the issues
are for all of them.


Its nice to know.....that you are notch higher than an ordinary chef of
any typical restaurant .




I'm so happy for you that you are able to feel superior to someone. And
I admire your style of insult.


Bob ...don't take it seriously....
Its sad to say....that Chefs lack sense of humor if compared to the
bakers......sigh...

Filled breads and pastries use other foods that can support both
spoilage and pathogenic bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we
should be careful with all of them.


Breads in themselves have high water activity..in the vicinity of
0.90's




Generally around .95


Thanks for the correction....my record starts at 0.90...as there are
certain breads that have lower water content.( low hydration)...which
is common in Asia...and also contains more of sugar in it.



so it can still be attacked by bacteria such as the bacillus
subtilis/mesentericus which causes rope and that is already
considered as spoilage.... Fillings in bread are sensitive to
spoilage, it can be meat and dairy based; and both have moderate
to high water activity as the low to moderate amount of sugar but
low salt and the usual absence of humectants (which binds water)
does not decrease water activity much and therefore don't prevent
osmophilic bacteria, molds and yeast from attacking it causing it
to spoil....Once fermentation sets in the water activity values can
increase due to the breakdown of food structure increasing the water
content of the spoiled food leading to other microbes (including
pathogen to attack it)..This chain reaction can led to a food hazards
in many cases and people that are highly sensitive can be the first
to fall ill. Even this so called jam fillings which can have water
activity values IIRC of 0.60-0.70



Jams and jellies - .82 to .94

For jams and jellies
My source says the range is from 0. 60-0.85


yes indeed....but in the bakery ...we are content about the actual Aw readings as the value of pH etc are already established....and if shelf life is the concern....how to reformulate products that will stay longer....is by means of water activity readings and Aw values...


Establishing a system for kitchens that make sure good safety practices
are followed means that the cooks don't really need to understand the
complex biological, chemical and physical conditions. They just need to
know what to do and how to do it in accordance with the appropriate

..principles. I want cooks with sympathetic kitchen hands, not
academics.

IMO
They really need to go details so they will have a grasp of the
reaction mechanism.s.and what happened during the cookery process.
And recently .the rise of culinology as a new discipline in cookery
emphasizes that the kitchen personnel must not only be skilled in his
kitchen stuff but also think like a food scientist...



and have to remind
myself often....water activity is ubiquitous in the food industry



Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.


Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
water activity in the general food processing...



No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
issue. But it's not the only issue


It is. It's essentially an index about how much water is available to
colonizing organisms. Not how much water is in the particular food, but
how much of it isn't bound. In food science, the lower the index number
(ranges from 0.0 [no water] to 1.00 [water]), the less water there is
for the metabolic needs of any critters; so reduced viability for
culturing in food products. Points to shelf life and storage
requirements. High water activity and low pH means refrigeration.



In our particular field..(.as I stated previously..)..the pH readings
are already considered and is part of the parameters to be taken to
consideration....But the amount of available water for microbial growth
is given emphasis in long shelf storage...
Say for example a fruit cake...the baker will not measure the batter
or cake pH, but now they emphasize the water activity measurements
for such...to insure a good shelf life. .and it often works!



  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 15-01-2006, 10:11 AM posted to rec.food.baking
chembake
 
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Dave----------------------------------------------- Response: Wouldn't
it be nice if Rose Levy Beranbaum got involved with this NG.


That would be interesting!...

I had been eagerly awaiting this so called baking books luminaries to
participate in NG's.like the rec.food.baking. rec.food.sourdough and
alt.bread.recipes.discussions.
It would make the newsgroups livelier if . other baking authors like
Giesslen,Glazer,, Reinhart, Hamelman,David, etc.. would take part
grin....
But its likely be just a pipe dream.....

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Old 15-01-2006, 11:04 AM posted to rec.food.baking
Bob (this one)
 
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chembake wrote:

Bob (this one) wrote

Establishing a system for kitchens that make sure good safety
practices are followed means that the cooks don't really need to
understand the complex biological, chemical and physical
conditions. They just need to know what to do and how to do it in
accordance with the appropriate principles. I want cooks with
sympathetic kitchen hands, not

academics.

IMO They really need to go details so they will have a grasp of
the reaction mechanism.s.and what happened during the cookery
process. And recently .the rise of culinology as a new discipline in
cookery emphasizes that the kitchen personnel must not only be
skilled in his kitchen stuff but also think like a food scientist...


Not really. They talk about chefs, not whole kitchen staffs. Culinology
now has a voice with Culinology magazine that comes out of the Research
Chefs organization. You might want to check into it. The magazine looks
good, color throughout and lots of industry news.

Pastorio
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Old 15-01-2006, 11:18 AM posted to rec.food.baking
Bob (this one)
 
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chembake wrote:
Dave----------------------------------------------- Response: Wouldn't
it be nice if Rose Levy Beranbaum got involved with this NG.



That would be interesting!...

I had been eagerly awaiting this so called


"so called" is an insult. It sounds like a dismissive sneer in speech
and about the same in writing. The simple fact is that R.L.Beranbaum is
a bona fide authority and has been one for a good, long time. Her books
and articles are all the credentials she or anyone would need.

baking books luminaries to
participate in NG's.like the rec.food.baking. rec.food.sourdough and
alt.bread.recipes.discussions.
It would make the newsgroups livelier if . other baking authors like
Giesslen,


Wayne Gisslen is probably the most authoritative source about
professional, quantity baking and professional cooking writing today.

Glazer,


I assume you mean Maggie Glezer. Good writer, good information. Thorough.

Reinhart,


Peter Reinhart in conversation is absolutely one of the most
authoritative bread bakers I've ever met. His books are very accessible.

Hamelman,


Practical information and a bit of science from a man who works for a
flour company. He knows what he's talking about.

David,


When I saw the name, I smiled and thought of this
http://www.superseventies.com/ssdavidgates.html

Add Carol Field, Bernard Dupaigne (great name for a baker), Nick
Malgieri, Bernard Clayton...

And who could forget Betty Crocker and Aunt Jemima... LOL

etc.. would take part
grin....
But its likely be just a pipe dream.....


Yes. I suspect so. None of them with their backgrounds would put up with
being attacked and demeaned. They don't have to. They have nothing to
prove and nothing to defend. They're already known and they've proven
that they know how to bake.

They're not food scientists. For that Shirley Corriher or Harold McGee
would be good liaisons between the academic understandings and the
practical kitchen. Their books are masterworks.

Pastorio
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Old 15-01-2006, 07:25 PM posted to rec.food.baking
The Cook
 
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On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:47:52 GMT, Dave Bell
wrote:

Bob, Roy (Chembake) often has a lot to offer here in these groups.
He does have a great deal of experience, and his insights from a
biochemical point of view are frequently very helpful.

But, don't get into an argument with him. As I believe Sam Clemens put
it, it is like wrestling with a pig: you get muddy and the pig enjoys it!

Dave


I am sure that Bob can hold his own with Roy.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 15-01-2006, 07:33 PM posted to rec.food.baking
chembake
 
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chembake wrote:
Dave----------------------------------------------- Response: Wouldn't
it be nice if Rose Levy Beranbaum got involved with this NG.


That would be interesting!...



I had been eagerly awaiting this so called




"so called" is an insult. It sounds like a dismissive sneer in speech
and about the same in writing. The simple fact is that R.L.Beranbaum is
a bona fide authority and has been one for a good, long time. Her books
and articles are all the credentials she or anyone would need.


Insult...? not IMO...maybe for neophytes....in the same way as bible
bashers..?
For sure
Amateurs would be struck with awe as they regard these cookery authors
as kitchen demigods ?......but not me...
In fact
Never I own books from any these people.... ..... Rather I just
browse them out of curiosity.grin.in the library....
It jus that I am not a collector of 'coffee table books'....just as
many of the books of the authors your mentioned belong...

Regarding Biranbaum....IMO...I don't find any of her books
interesting....nor informative...and I had worked in the bakery and
food research lab.. for years without a need for them.........much to
the surprise of some food technologist in the same line who have a
copy of her books in their book shelves........




Wayne Gisslen is probably the most authoritative source about
professional, quantity baking and professional cooking writing today.


I agree in that point....Wayne is one of the respectable.... as his
writings relates what is really being used in the baking industry....
In fact a lot of other bakers own his book...and I recommend it to many
bakery trainee and apprentices .
Glazer,



I assume you mean Maggie Glezer. Good writer, good information. Thorough.


This Glazier lady is an AIB graduate....but for me she is just a good
writer....not a good baker...Being an alumni of the American Institute
of Baking...these people are used in making breads with
machines.....not with their hands.
The focus more in the science of baking and not in the skill of
becoming a good craft baker in the same tradition of European trained
bakers.
If you look closely at the pictures of that book Artisan Baking across
America....her dough molding skills is amateurish like that of a bakery
trainee .grin... I was hoping hope its not her doing the dough
handling........but somebody else...

But the recipes are interesting but she tends to oversimplify it to the
point for the sake of amateur and home bakers...and partly alienating
the institutional bakers.

Reinhart,



Peter Reinhart in conversation is absolutely one of the most
authoritative bread bakers I've ever met. His books are very accessible.


This is a must for home bakers....but practicing bakers in the industry
look at his books with ....disinterests...Its not worth
owninggrin...unless you are newbie in bakery trade?
..Another thing is he try to explain bakery science in an amateurish
manner.
....
For me he is overrated as a baker.....but just a smart fellow( IIRC
his background was photography ) that is why he really know how to
present his limited skills in a colorful book at the right time.......

Hamelman,



Practical information and a bit of science from a man who works for a
flour company. He knows what he's talking about.



Now this guy I respect.....he is really a qualified baker like Gesslen
and he knows what he is talking about.. and at the same time knows
how to do it properly....
It is not surprising....I know many practicing bakers have his popular
book ...and continuously refer them for some pointers...


When I saw the name, I smiled and thought of this
http://www.superseventies.com/ssdavidgates.html

Add Carol Field---

This lady is just a tourist who visited many Italian bakeries and wrote
a book about it......
Nothing spectacular....although many home bakes regard her as an
authority in Italian baking LOL....

I had more respect for the author of Il Fornaio as he is really a
competent Italian baker...
But just like many good bakers....their writing and presentation skills
to the reading public is not as good as the other popular authors

, Bernard Dupaigne (great name for a baker), Nick
Malgieri, Bernard Clayton...


I am not familiar with Dupaigne....Heard about Malgiere but was unable
to browse his books.....Clayton...IMO *******ized French baking...

I would rather read Bilheux et al......Special and Decorative
Bread...its an authoritative book with such competent and detailed
presentation........that is treasured by many bakers .

And who could forget Betty Crocker and Aunt Jemima... LOL

Betty Crocker is just a registered trademark for products from General
Mills in the same line as Pillsbury and indeed they have cookbooks that
suit best for home bakers ....and cooks
Aunt Jemina.../..?...I have not seen if she had some cookery writings .


etc.. would take part
grin....
But its likely be just a pipe dream.....



Yes. I suspect so. None of them with their backgrounds would put up with
being attacked and demeaned. They don't have to. They have nothing to
prove and nothing to defend. They're already known and they've proven
that they know how to bake.


If these people live up to their reputation....they should not be
onion skinned.. . if they know really where they belong.......they have
nothing to fear

Its not about having something to prove but any feedbacks from various
quarters would be a great help in improving the materials of their
cookery books..
I'm certain if they are not hollow people but really live to their
name
They will certainly appreciate any criticism as that will improve the
contents of their future cookery literatures.

They're not food scientists. For that Shirley Corriher or Harold McGee
would be good liaisons between the academic understandings and the
practical kitchen. Their books are masterworks.


Again Shirley Corriher...IMO is just like one of the guys......who is a
notch higher than ordinary cookery authors for their technical
competence....
I am not familiar with Harold McGee.

When I saw the name, I smiled and thought of this
http://www.superseventies.com/ssdavidgates.html

David?....not this guy but Elizabeth David....I mean...who is another
well known cookery author ...that is often qouted by cookery
enthusiast.....



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Old 15-01-2006, 07:57 PM posted to rec.food.baking
chembake
 
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Not really. They talk about chefs, not whole kitchen staffs. Culinology
now has a voice with Culinology magazine that comes out of the Research
Chefs organization. You might want to check into it. The magazine looks
good, color throughout and lots of industry news.


From the essential point.. as ponted by the originator .Culinology is

the fusion of culinary arts and food technology....that is why I posted
earlier that a kitchen personnel must not be only competent with his or
her cookery skills but also have the inclination to think like a food
scientist.

The term culinology was coined by Winston Riley, former president and a
founder of the Research Chefs Association (RCA), to describe and
formalize the fusion of two disciplines - culinary art and food
technology

IIRC the University of Nebraska was the first to offer this course in
their food related curriculum...
When I viewed the prospectus....i found it impressive and thought that
this should be the way how future chefs should be trained.in the 21st
century...but apprenticeship should not be set aside as its useful in
gaining valuable craftmanship skills and good kitchen presentations.
They should go hand in hand...culinary art and cookery science.

I was even urging some bakers to follow suit and do some cross training
.... go to the university and takes some science courses related to food
processing.
They more you understand the reaction mechanism , ingredient
interactions etc that occur in foodprocessing and understand the
tools of the food scientists ...the better baker you become ....which I
had confirmed already.....

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Old 16-01-2006, 07:25 AM posted to rec.food.baking
Bob (this one)
 
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chembake wrote:

We don't have much to discuss.

Pastorio
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Old 16-01-2006, 07:53 AM posted to rec.food.baking
Bob (this one)
 
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chembake wrote:
Not really. They talk about chefs, not whole kitchen staffs. Culinology
now has a voice with Culinology magazine that comes out of the Research
Chefs organization. You might want to check into it. The magazine looks
good, color throughout and lots of industry news.



From the essential point.. as ponted by the originator .Culinology is

the fusion of culinary arts and food technology....that is why I posted
earlier that a kitchen personnel must not be only competent with his or
her cookery skills but also have the inclination to think like a food
scientist.


You said that about the kitchen staff already and it wasn't true then
either.

So you don't know about the magazine?

Pastorio
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Old 16-01-2006, 08:38 AM posted to rec.food.baking
-L.
 
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chembake wrote:

Peter Reinhart in conversation is absolutely one of the most
authoritative bread bakers I've ever met. His books are very accessible.


This is a must for home bakers....but practicing bakers in the industry
look at his books with ....disinterests...Its not worth
owninggrin...unless you are newbie in bakery trade?


You act as if you know it all and have no reason to seek the knowledge
of others, or no need for books as reference.

Even the most experienced scientist keeps books written by others on
their shelf for reference and guidence. James Watson kept a copy of
the Maniatus molecular biology "bible" (Molecular cloning: a laboratory
manual) above his lab bench for reference.


.Another thing is he try to explain bakery science in an amateurish
manner.
...
For me he is overrated as a baker.....but just a smart fellow( IIRC
his background was photography ) that is why he really know how to
present his limited skills in a colorful book at the right time.......

Hamelman,



Practical information and a bit of science from a man who works for a
flour company. He knows what he's talking about.



Now this guy I respect.....he is really a qualified baker like Gesslen
and he knows what he is talking about.. and at the same time knows
how to do it properly....
It is not surprising....I know many practicing bakers have his popular
book ...and continuously refer them for some pointers...


Let me guess: But YOU don't.

-L.

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Old 16-01-2006, 09:47 AM posted to rec.food.baking
chembake
 
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"-L." wrote:

Let me guess: But YOU don't...


Look here I am not claiming I know everything...and nobody knows
everything ......that is not the ultimate purpose of learning...nor the
attainment of wisdom...But... its is the firm grasp of the essentials
is what is most important...that is considered the attainment of
superior knowledge and the flowering of wisdom.
That is why I don't collect books.....it will take a herculean
effort,,,, to know all the details of those many books...which the
results does not actually lead to the improvement of your
knowledge...but rather to bringing you in a confused state....then you
will strive to read more in order to sort out the self created
confusion....?

Going back to cookery....its not a collection of recipes. and
procedures...but the comprehension of the essentials of those
formulations and methodologiies that is most important....there are
infinite permutation of recipes..but the principles involved in its
preparation is simple....

That is why for me.....I consider cookery as 99% commonsense and only
1% recipe....
Its unfortunate that most people think in reverse.....and that is why
they kept on collecting books... and these authors are laughing their
way to the bankgrin..



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cake decorating magazines Sally Pinnell Baking 2 05-01-2004 04:59 AM


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