I hate covering bread when it rises. I hate greasing the plastic and
towels seem to stick and weigh the dough down. I've been leaving the
bread to rise "bare" uncovered and it appears to work just as well--
I've misted it a few times during the hour out of fear, but I'm not
sure that's necessary. The bread forms a skin, but that doesn't seem
to hinder the rise, and even helps with slashing. I was wondering,
does anyone else raise your bread uncovered?

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:09:52 -0500, Howard Larson
> wrote:

(Jonathan Kandell) had a gift of laughter and a
>sense that the world was mad, or at least the rec.food.baking part and
>wrote:
>
>>I hate covering bread when it rises. I hate greasing the plastic and
>>towels seem to stick and weigh the dough down. I've been leaving the
>>bread to rise "bare" uncovered and it appears to work just as well--
>>I've misted it a few times during the hour out of fear, but I'm not
>>sure that's necessary. The bread forms a skin, but that doesn't seem
>>to hinder the rise, and even helps with slashing. I was wondering,
>>does anyone else raise your bread uncovered?
>
>I've raised french bread loaves in a cold oven (no dafts) w/o covering
>or misting and have had excellent results. Also, I have noticed the
>bakery in the Dominick's/Safeway store raises their loaves w/o
>covering.

Howdy,

The purpose of covering the rising dough is just to keep the surface
moist. There are several ways to do that other than covering the dough
with something that would touch its surface.

One way is to put the dough in some location that preserves the
humidity. That may be the reason that rising it in the cool oven
works. It is the same idea as putting the rising dough into a plastic
box with a reasonably well sealed lid.

Another technique is to take a large plastic bag, and put the rising
dough in. Then, flap the bag to "gulp" in some air, and close the end
with a rubber band. The bag will look "inflated" and will not touch
the dough. It will keep the interior humid because the vapor generated
by evaporation from the moist dough cannot escape...

One other thought:

Indeed, a slightly drier exterior can help with the slash, but, it the
skin that forms is too dry, it is more likely to tear as the loaf
rises.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Far as I can tell, someone wrote:
>The bread forms a skin, but that doesn't seem
>to hinder the rise, and even helps with slashing.

That's because the skin has remained thin enough. If you left it much
longer, it might dry too much of the dough.

>I was wondering,
>does anyone else raise your bread uncovered?

Yup. But I use a proofer, which adds humidity and keeps the surface
moist.

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
> I hate covering bread when it rises. I hate greasing the plastic and
> towels seem to stick and weigh the dough down. I've been leaving the
> bread to rise "bare" uncovered and it appears to work just as well--
> I've misted it a few times during the hour out of fear, but I'm not
> sure that's necessary. The bread forms a skin, but that doesn't seem
> to hinder the rise, and even helps with slashing. I was wondering,
> does anyone else raise your bread uncovered?

Why don't you just use a bigger bowl, and cover it? Then it won't stick
to plastic or get a skin on it. As a result, I have no need to oil the
plastic.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

"alzelt" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Kandell wrote:
> > I hate covering bread when it rises. I hate greasing the plastic and
> > towels seem to stick and weigh the dough down. I've been leaving the
> > bread to rise "bare" uncovered and it appears to work just as well--
> > I've misted it a few times during the hour out of fear, but I'm not
> > sure that's necessary. The bread forms a skin, but that doesn't seem
> > to hinder the rise, and even helps with slashing. I was wondering,
> > does anyone else raise your bread uncovered?
>
> Why don't you just use a bigger bowl, and cover it? Then it won't stick
> to plastic or get a skin on it. As a result, I have no need to oil the
> plastic.
> --
> Alan

That's fine for the first rise or two. I believe that the OP may have been
referring to the final rise after the product has been formed. I don't like
to use towels and I have had a number of incidents where plastic wrap has
become hopelessly stuck to the loaves.

Vox Humana wrote:

> "alzelt" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Jonathan Kandell wrote:
>>
>>>I hate covering bread when it rises. I hate greasing the plastic and
>>>towels seem to stick and weigh the dough down. I've been leaving the
>>>bread to rise "bare" uncovered and it appears to work just as well--
>>>I've misted it a few times during the hour out of fear, but I'm not
>>>sure that's necessary. The bread forms a skin, but that doesn't seem
>>>to hinder the rise, and even helps with slashing. I was wondering,
>>>does anyone else raise your bread uncovered?
>>
>>Why don't you just use a bigger bowl, and cover it? Then it won't stick
>>to plastic or get a skin on it. As a result, I have no need to oil the
>>plastic.
>>--
>>Alan
>
>
> That's fine for the first rise or two. I believe that the OP may have been
> referring to the final rise after the product has been formed. I don't like
> to use towels and I have had a number of incidents where plastic wrap has
> become hopelessly stuck to the loaves.
>
>
Well, on the final product in our home, we use the plastic, with no
sticking. I guess some people get stuck on the minor points.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

"alzelt" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
> > "alzelt" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>Jonathan Kandell wrote:
> >>
> >>>I hate covering bread when it rises. I hate greasing the plastic and
> >>>towels seem to stick and weigh the dough down. I've been leaving the
> >>>bread to rise "bare" uncovered and it appears to work just as well--
> >>>I've misted it a few times during the hour out of fear, but I'm not
> >>>sure that's necessary. The bread forms a skin, but that doesn't seem
> >>>to hinder the rise, and even helps with slashing. I was wondering,
> >>>does anyone else raise your bread uncovered?
> >>
> >>Why don't you just use a bigger bowl, and cover it? Then it won't stick
> >>to plastic or get a skin on it. As a result, I have no need to oil the
> >>plastic.
> >>--
> >>Alan
> >
> >
> > That's fine for the first rise or two. I believe that the OP may have
been
> > referring to the final rise after the product has been formed. I don't
like
> > to use towels and I have had a number of incidents where plastic wrap
has
> > become hopelessly stuck to the loaves.
> >
> >
> Well, on the final product in our home, we use the plastic, with no
> sticking. I guess some people get stuck on the minor points.
> --

I can't tell you how many times I have had plastic stick to my loaves. I
must be doing something wrong. The only thing that prevents the plastic
from sticking is if I flour the loaves before covering with plastic. I like
to do the final rise in the oven or microwave, uncovered, with a big
container or boiling hot water to add humidity. I use the oven for multiple
loaves, putting the boiling water into a broiler pan.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message > ...
> That's fine for the first rise or two. I believe that the OP may have been
> referring to the final rise after the product has been formed. I don't like
> to use towels and I have had a number of incidents where plastic wrap has
> become hopelessly stuck to the loaves.

Exactly, Vox. I let the dough sit in the bread machine container for
the first rise or two (since I'll be deflating it anyway). It's the
final rise after I've shaped it that I find works just as well au
nataral, sitting on the peel (or in my case, the rimless lid to my
stove-top smoker). Like you I've had plastic wrap stuck in loaves and
I don't own a bowl large enough to cover the final boule. So I
started letting it rise in the open air and it all seems to have
worked out so far-- no cracked skins. Worst-case: I lightly spritz
the skin half way through. I can't believe I'm the only person to do
this.

jk

I can't even begin to tell you how may breads I have made. And of course
trial and error is among the best ways to perfect your final product. But
then again, so to is my school to assist.

There are 2 fermenting stages in the making of breads. Most bakers
distinguish the first and second by reffering to the second as
'proofing/retarding'

The first fermenting is the leaving of the dough as whole or portioning it
and then leaving it to rest and relax for a bit to allow the gluten to
condition. Here, it is common to either lighly dust the dough with flour or
to lightly spray it with a non-stick cooking spray and cover it with a BIG
GARBAGE BAG (not put it inside the bag) and let it rest till double size and
relaxed. For a small amount you may also choose to place the dough in a
lightly sprayed stainless steel bowl, but making sure you toss the dough
around so as just to cover it with the spray, then tightly cover the bowl
with saran wrap and place it in a lukewarm (not to hot ) area, such as on
top of an oven (not inside).

Once your dough has doubled in size, you will want to return it to a lighly
dusted floured table, punch the dough down so that the air has been
released. Then you will portion and shape your dought accordingly. At that
point you will move onto the proofing stage.

During this stage, you will shape your dough, and keeping the product
covered with a plastic garbage bag, or damp towel so as not to develop a
skin, until all your doughs are molded and ready to be placed on your baking
sheet or in your container.
Next you will proof your dough till double size by either
1) warm and moist place (proof box) uncovered.
2) place tray and doughs in a garbage bag and place in a fridge for 8+
hours
3) let sit out uncovered - a skin will develop but so will you get a nice
medium crust.

Proofing is done with you lightly press on the dough ad a a slighy
indentation remains.

Slashes on breads are not only for appearance, but as an aid to relieving
pressure. The produt increases in volume at a greatly accelerated speed
during the first 5 minutes of baking. This can cause the surface to break
or crack at any weak point. A bread that is underproofed is very prone to
surface breakage. By slashing the skin into decorative patterns, these
points become predetermined, and the expansion is uniform and controoled.
In most cases, the cuts are made just under the skin of the loaf and not
deeptoward the center.

In article >,
"Charles Baker" > wrote:

> The first fermenting is the leaving of the dough as whole or portioning it
> and then leaving it to rest and relax for a bit to allow the gluten to
> condition. Here, it is common to either lighly dust the dough with flour or
> to lightly spray it with a non-stick cooking spray and cover it with a BIG
> GARBAGE BAG (not put it inside the bag) and let it rest till double size and
> relaxed. For a small amount you may also choose to place the dough in a
> lightly sprayed stainless steel bowl, but making sure you toss the dough
> around so as just to cover it with the spray, then tightly cover the bowl
> with saran wrap and place it in a lukewarm (not to hot ) area, such as on
> top of an oven (not inside).
>

I hope the garbage bag doesn't touch the dough. Garbage bags aren't
food-safe containers. Besides containing plasticizers untested for
contact with food (both in type and quantity), they are often treated at
by the manufacturer with deodorants and pesticides.

If a health inspector from most US states saw this type of thing in a
restaurant, the establishment's owner would likely get a violation
written up and be ordered to trash the dough. I don't know the rules in
Canada, but I'd be surprised if they were substantively different--and
the underlying reason is still the same.

--
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In article >,
"Charles Baker" > wrote:

> The first fermenting is the leaving of the dough as whole or portioning it
> and then leaving it to rest and relax for a bit to allow the gluten to
> condition. Here, it is common to either lighly dust the dough with flour or
> to lightly spray it with a non-stick cooking spray and cover it with a BIG
> GARBAGE BAG (not put it inside the bag) and let it rest till double size and
> relaxed. For a small amount you may also choose to place the dough in a
> lightly sprayed stainless steel bowl, but making sure you toss the dough
> around so as just to cover it with the spray, then tightly cover the bowl
> with saran wrap and place it in a lukewarm (not to hot ) area, such as on
> top of an oven (not inside).
>

I hope the garbage bag doesn't touch the dough. Garbage bags aren't
food-safe containers. Besides containing plasticizers untested for
contact with food (both in type and quantity), they are often treated at
by the manufacturer with deodorants and pesticides.

If a health inspector from most US states saw this type of thing in a
restaurant, the establishment's owner would likely get a violation
written up and be ordered to trash the dough. I don't know the rules in
Canada, but I'd be surprised if they were substantively different--and
the underlying reason is still the same.

--
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"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Charles Baker" > wrote:
>
> > The first fermenting is the leaving of the dough as whole or portioning
it
> > and then leaving it to rest and relax for a bit to allow the gluten to
> > condition. Here, it is common to either lighly dust the dough with
flour or
> > to lightly spray it with a non-stick cooking spray and cover it with a
BIG
> > GARBAGE BAG (not put it inside the bag) and let it rest till double size
and
> > relaxed. For a small amount you may also choose to place the dough in
a
> > lightly sprayed stainless steel bowl, but making sure you toss the dough
> > around so as just to cover it with the spray, then tightly cover the
bowl
> > with saran wrap and place it in a lukewarm (not to hot ) area, such as
on
> > top of an oven (not inside).
> >
>
> I hope the garbage bag doesn't touch the dough. Garbage bags aren't
> food-safe containers. Besides containing plasticizers untested for
> contact with food (both in type and quantity), they are often treated at
> by the manufacturer with deodorants and pesticides.
>
> If a health inspector from most US states saw this type of thing in a
> restaurant, the establishment's owner would likely get a violation
> written up and be ordered to trash the dough. I don't know the rules in
> Canada, but I'd be surprised if they were substantively different--and
> the underlying reason is still the same.

WOW.
When I was in culinary school not to long ago, I wondered why so many cooks
were carrying around tool boxes and tackle boxes, rather than a specialized
kitchen equipment carrier. Most if not all chefs use a lot of interesting
tools in their arsenal of food preparation and presentation. Plumbing
copper pipes may be cut down, sanded out, and cleaned to be used to mold
towers of pasta, salad, ice cream, etc.. Sure you can use a lot of
different tools, (saws, hammers, pliers, nails, etc,) and a lot of different
mediums (ceramic bathroom tiles in place of plates), plastic bins or straw
baskets for fermenting or proofing breads. And that is completely up to
you.

To get to the point, and back from my tangent.......yes the Garbage bag does
touch the dough. If you want to come down to the nitty-gritty......everyone
can find anything bad in everything. Obviously don't use the perfume-lilac
scented garbage bags from arm&hammer co., Industrial black or clear
garbage bags work well and can be used over and over again. Where I would
prefer to lighly dust the dough with flour, one of my friend's prefers to
spray pam over the dough. and when you want, actually use them for
garbage and discard. You can use plastic containers that are lightly
sprayed with oil to prevent sticking.
As for the Health Inspectors....none that I know have had any problems with
these methods - in Canada or from a number of friends in the USA. But as I
am curious myself, I will call US depts of health and in Canada to get their
take.

Charles Baker.

"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Charles Baker" > wrote:
>
> > The first fermenting is the leaving of the dough as whole or portioning
it
> > and then leaving it to rest and relax for a bit to allow the gluten to
> > condition. Here, it is common to either lighly dust the dough with
flour or
> > to lightly spray it with a non-stick cooking spray and cover it with a
BIG
> > GARBAGE BAG (not put it inside the bag) and let it rest till double size
and
> > relaxed. For a small amount you may also choose to place the dough in
a
> > lightly sprayed stainless steel bowl, but making sure you toss the dough
> > around so as just to cover it with the spray, then tightly cover the
bowl
> > with saran wrap and place it in a lukewarm (not to hot ) area, such as
on
> > top of an oven (not inside).
> >
>
> I hope the garbage bag doesn't touch the dough. Garbage bags aren't
> food-safe containers. Besides containing plasticizers untested for
> contact with food (both in type and quantity), they are often treated at
> by the manufacturer with deodorants and pesticides.
>
> If a health inspector from most US states saw this type of thing in a
> restaurant, the establishment's owner would likely get a violation
> written up and be ordered to trash the dough. I don't know the rules in
> Canada, but I'd be surprised if they were substantively different--and
> the underlying reason is still the same.

WOW.
When I was in culinary school not to long ago, I wondered why so many cooks
were carrying around tool boxes and tackle boxes, rather than a specialized
kitchen equipment carrier. Most if not all chefs use a lot of interesting
tools in their arsenal of food preparation and presentation. Plumbing
copper pipes may be cut down, sanded out, and cleaned to be used to mold
towers of pasta, salad, ice cream, etc.. Sure you can use a lot of
different tools, (saws, hammers, pliers, nails, etc,) and a lot of different
mediums (ceramic bathroom tiles in place of plates), plastic bins or straw
baskets for fermenting or proofing breads. And that is completely up to
you.

To get to the point, and back from my tangent.......yes the Garbage bag does
touch the dough. If you want to come down to the nitty-gritty......everyone
can find anything bad in everything. Obviously don't use the perfume-lilac
scented garbage bags from arm&hammer co., Industrial black or clear
garbage bags work well and can be used over and over again. Where I would
prefer to lighly dust the dough with flour, one of my friend's prefers to
spray pam over the dough. and when you want, actually use them for
garbage and discard. You can use plastic containers that are lightly
sprayed with oil to prevent sticking.
As for the Health Inspectors....none that I know have had any problems with
these methods - in Canada or from a number of friends in the USA. But as I
am curious myself, I will call US depts of health and in Canada to get their
take.

Charles Baker.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:13:05 -0400
"Charles Baker" > wrote:


> WOW.
> When I was in culinary school not to long ago, I wondered why so many
> cooks were carrying around tool boxes and tackle boxes, rather than a
> specialized kitchen equipment carrier. Most if not all chefs use a
> lot of interesting tools in their arsenal of food preparation and
> presentation. Plumbing copper pipes may be cut down, sanded out, and
> cleaned to be used to mold towers of pasta, salad, ice cream, etc..
> Sure you can use a lot of different tools, (saws, hammers, pliers,
> nails, etc,) and a lot of different mediums (ceramic bathroom tiles in
> place of plates), plastic bins or straw baskets for fermenting or
> proofing breads. And that is completely up to you.


The box you carry your tools in, even if it's leaching plasticizers
and outgassing solvents, just isn't going to have much affect on the
tools therein. Especially if you wash it first.

Metal is generally free of chemical contaminants - especially if
it's been sanded down. Ceramics are heated hot enough to vaporize any
organics that might be in them, and glazed ceramics don't even present
the possibility of leaching heavy metals that may or may not be in them.

Nails are slightly iffy. They are frequently coated to make them
stick to the wood. You'd want to run them through a commercial grade
dishwasher first. ditto just about any woodworking equipment - often
coated with water repellants. After the dishwasher, though, no problem.

Those plastic bins may have actually been specified as food-safe.
Never heard of anybody putting dough directly inside a straw basket.
Seems like you'd get straw in the dough.

Garbage bags, however, smell funny when warm, which indicates that
they are outgassing . . . . something. something i don't want in my
bread. I don't know what it is, but I'll pass.

In article >,
"Charles Baker" > wrote:

> As for the Health Inspectors....none that I know have had any problems with
> these methods - in Canada or from a number of friends in the USA. But as I
> am curious myself, I will call US depts of health and in Canada to get their
> take.

The health codes are written on the state level, not federal, so you'd
have to call a state's department of health. For restaurants,
inspections are often performed at the county level (i.e., County
So-and-So Department of Health), where the county health regulations are
based on that state's health code.

My brother is a county health inspector; I double-checked with him, and
he said it was a definite violation. His further response: "All food
contact surfaces and storage containers must be made of food grade
material as defined by the FDA or NSF," else it's a violation.

And it's not just a matter of "perfume-lilac scented garbage bags from
arm&hammer co."; as noted in my original post, there's the issue of
plasticizers (used to make plastic more pliable). They can be toxic,
especially if ingested, and plastics that are not certified as
food-grade may leach them into the food they touch. Even food-grade
plastics may do so, if heated (see:
<http://www.foodsafety.gov/~fsg/fs-mwave.html>). And the
deodorants/pesticides on garbage bags aren't necessarily listed on the
package--i.e., the product can be unscented and contain the additives.

--
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In article >,
"Charles Baker" > wrote:

> As for the Health Inspectors....none that I know have had any problems with
> these methods - in Canada or from a number of friends in the USA. But as I
> am curious myself, I will call US depts of health and in Canada to get their
> take.

The health codes are written on the state level, not federal, so you'd
have to call a state's department of health. For restaurants,
inspections are often performed at the county level (i.e., County
So-and-So Department of Health), where the county health regulations are
based on that state's health code.

My brother is a county health inspector; I double-checked with him, and
he said it was a definite violation. His further response: "All food
contact surfaces and storage containers must be made of food grade
material as defined by the FDA or NSF," else it's a violation.

And it's not just a matter of "perfume-lilac scented garbage bags from
arm&hammer co."; as noted in my original post, there's the issue of
plasticizers (used to make plastic more pliable). They can be toxic,
especially if ingested, and plastics that are not certified as
food-grade may leach them into the food they touch. Even food-grade
plastics may do so, if heated (see:
<http://www.foodsafety.gov/~fsg/fs-mwave.html>). And the
deodorants/pesticides on garbage bags aren't necessarily listed on the
package--i.e., the product can be unscented and contain the additives.

--
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On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:23:11 GMT, Scott >
wrote:

>I hope the garbage bag doesn't touch the dough.

Whew... Just use a large food-grade bag.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

In article >,
Kenneth > wrote:

> Whew... Just use a large food-grade bag.
>
> HTH,

I agree. I was talking about this with my brother last night, and he
said that you can buy food-grade bags just like large trash bags for a
similar price (at restaurant supply stores), but that chefs rarely
bother.

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