Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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Rona Y.
 
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Default Tough Bread

I've been taking bread baking classes at a school in Japan. This is a
school geared towards single women hoping for husbands and newly married
women who can't cook. I'm neither, but I digress... I mention the typical
clientele because I think it influences the bread-baking techniques used at
the school (primarily the fast rises).

I've been finding that my breads from this place must be eaten while hot or
they end up hard and tough--even after just one night. Almost all the
breads use some butter and many of them use egg, as well. For example, last
night I made the Japanese version of challah. The recipe included

250g flour (about 12.6% protein)
2 T sugar
1.5 tsp yeast
1/2 tsp salt
40g butter
110cc water
52 g egg (about 1 medium)

IME with American bread recipes, these recipes tend to use more yeast (in
proportion to the amount of flour).

The way the breads are made--a very soft dough is kneaded until it begins to
take shape (form a ball), then kneaded again (in a different manner), then
allowed to rise. At this school, because they require a high turnover of
classes, they use proofing boxes set to 40C. For the Challah recipe, the
dough was allowed to rise for about 30 minutes. After punching the dough
down, it is allowed to rest--in this case 15 minutes, usually about 10
minutes. Then the breads are shaped and placed in the proofing box--usually
for 20-30 minutes, depending on the recipe. Finally baked--at the school I
currently attend, we use small gas/convection ovens. The challah was baked
in a braided ring shape, at 180C for 12 minutes.

Is there anything about the recipe and/or technique that seems to point
towards making tough breads? I would like to take these recipes but make
them at home with slower rises--would that help? Also, I was thinking of
reducing the amount of yeast, which would also help with slowing the rise, I
would think (I'm not a very good bread baker, however, so feel free to
correct me). Could we be over-kneading?

I should also mention, that because of the high turnovers we generally pack
up our goods to take home while they're still hot--we usually only get about
15 minutes cooling rack time. They provide us with plastic bags to do so.
I'm thinking of bringing my own paper bags. Would that help, at all?

(note: this may be reposted to e-Gullet in some form, just in case you also
read that group)
--
***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!***

"[America] is filled with people who decided not to live in Europe. We had
people who really wanted to live in Europe, but didn't have the energy to go
back. We call them Canadians."
---Grover Norquist in Newsweek, November 22, 2004


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
RsH
 
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I use:

1 egg (52 grams out of the shell is a LARGE egg here in Canada)
Egg white from a carton to take the total egg weight to 100 grams
184 grams 1% milk
42 grams shortening
(Crisco, Safflower Oil, Corn Oil, Butter... take your pick)
50 grams sugar
8 grams salt
412 grams bread flour
6 grams yeast

I use a bread machine and use it to do the kneading and the first rise
and punch down. THEN I let it rest 15-20 minutes, punch it down and
shape it into a 9*5 loaf pan, let it rise IN my oven at 100°F or about
37°C until it is an inch over the top of the loaf pan, turn the oven
up to 375°F [185°C] and bake for about 25-30 minutes.

Temperature equalisation time is 15 minutes
Kneading time is about 25 minutes
First Rise is about 50 minutes
Punch down
Rest is about 15-20 minutes
Punch down and shape into loaf or braid into loaf
Second Rise is about 35-40 minutes, in loaf pan or on cookie sheet
Baking is about 25-30 minutes - judge by colour

[You CAN coat the dough with watered down egg white via a pastry brush
just as you start the BAKING stage below, if you choose.]

The amount of sugar and fat both seem higher than in your recipe, and
the FAT and Milk [which was NOT in your recipe] are what make the
bread softer. I usually use Crisco simply because it is simple to use.
Otherwise I use Safflower Oil and simply pour in as below, to the
correct weight mark. Note that I do not use measuring spoons, cups,
etc. Everything is by weight!

Method...

Put bowl or bread machine pan on scale
Turn on scale and it should Tare at 0
Crack egg into Bread Machine pan
Pour in egg white to 100 grams
Pour in Milk to 284 grams
Add shortening to 326 grams
Add sugar to 376 grams
Add salt to 384 grams
Add flour to 796 grams and level top
add yeast to 802 grams
Turn off scale and remove pan (or bowl)

If using a bread machine, put pan into machine and use sweet bread
cycle or use dough cycle.

If doing otherwise, use hands, mixer, food processor or your method to
knead this into a dough, then let rise in a relatively warm and draft
free location. Use timing suggested for the various stages.

Check dough after everything is blended in and the liquid is totally
disbursed and absorbed in the flour, to see if it is too dry (add a
bit of water, a teaspoon full at a time) or too wet (add flour a
teaspoon full at a time)... since the amount of moisture in the flour
as it came out of the bag in the first place is always an unknown, and
you need to get the dough to just the right degree of tackiness.

That's it...

RsH
------------------------------
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:53:14 +0900, "Rona Y."
> wrote:

>I've been taking bread baking classes at a school in Japan. This is a
>school geared towards single women hoping for husbands and newly married
>women who can't cook. I'm neither, but I digress... I mention the typical
>clientele because I think it influences the bread-baking techniques used at
>the school (primarily the fast rises).
>
>I've been finding that my breads from this place must be eaten while hot or
>they end up hard and tough--even after just one night. Almost all the
>breads use some butter and many of them use egg, as well. For example, last
>night I made the Japanese version of challah. The recipe included
>
>250g flour (about 12.6% protein)
>2 T sugar
>1.5 tsp yeast
>1/2 tsp salt
>40g butter
>110cc water
>52 g egg (about 1 medium)
>
>IME with American bread recipes, these recipes tend to use more yeast (in
>proportion to the amount of flour).
>
>The way the breads are made--a very soft dough is kneaded until it begins to
>take shape (form a ball), then kneaded again (in a different manner), then
>allowed to rise. At this school, because they require a high turnover of
>classes, they use proofing boxes set to 40C. For the Challah recipe, the
>dough was allowed to rise for about 30 minutes. After punching the dough
>down, it is allowed to rest--in this case 15 minutes, usually about 10
>minutes. Then the breads are shaped and placed in the proofing box--usually
>for 20-30 minutes, depending on the recipe. Finally baked--at the school I
>currently attend, we use small gas/convection ovens. The challah was baked
>in a braided ring shape, at 180C for 12 minutes.
>
>Is there anything about the recipe and/or technique that seems to point
>towards making tough breads? I would like to take these recipes but make
>them at home with slower rises--would that help? Also, I was thinking of
>reducing the amount of yeast, which would also help with slowing the rise, I
>would think (I'm not a very good bread baker, however, so feel free to
>correct me). Could we be over-kneading?
>
>I should also mention, that because of the high turnovers we generally pack
>up our goods to take home while they're still hot--we usually only get about
>15 minutes cooling rack time. They provide us with plastic bags to do so.
>I'm thinking of bringing my own paper bags. Would that help, at all?
>
>(note: this may be reposted to e-Gullet in some form, just in case you also
>read that group)


================================================== =====
>
Copyright retained. My opinions - no one else's...
If this is illegal where you are, do not read it!
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy
 
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Rona Y. Apr 22, 5:53 pm

Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
From: "Rona Y." > - Find messages by this
author

Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:53:14 +0900
Local: Fri,Apr 22 2005 5:53 pm
Subject: Tough Bread
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>I've been finding that my breads from this place must be eaten while

hot or
>they end up hard and tough--even after just one night. Almost all the


>breads use some butter and many of them use egg, as well. For

example, last
>night I made the Japanese version of challah.

The recipe included (note: I calculated in bakers percent)
>250g flour (about 12.6% protein) 100%
>2 T sugar 10
>1.5 tsp yeast 1.8%
>1/2 tsp salt 1%
>40g butter 16%
>110cc water 44%
>52 g egg (about 1 medium) 21
>IME with American bread recipes, these recipes tend to use more yeast

(in
>proportion to the amount of flour).

Nope ....the yeast is already high enough comparable with western
cookbooks but the sugar is high and the salt is less but considering
the salt in butter the toal salt will be in the vicinity of 1.3%
>The way the breads are made--a very soft dough is kneaded until it

begins to
>take shape (form a ball), then kneaded again (in a different manner),

then
>allowed to rise. At this school, because they require a high turnover

of
>classes, they use proofing boxes set to 40C. For the Challah recipe,

the
>dough was allowed to rise for about 30 minutes. After punching the

dough
>down, it is allowed to rest--in this case 15 minutes, usually about 10


>minutes. Then the breads are shaped and placed in the proofing

box--usually
>for 20-30 minutes, depending on the recipe. Finally baked--at the

school I
>currently attend, we use small gas/convection ovens. The challah was

baked
>in a braided ring shape, at 180C for 12 minutes

The timing of this bread can be described as a short time process and
will certainly encourage the bread to be chewy like rubber and harden
very fast.
This particular recipe should be eaten fresh, as it cools down and
after several hours it can be used a Frisbee.
>Is there anything about the recipe and/or technique that seems to

point
>towards making tough breads? I would like to take these recipes but

make
>them at home with slower rises--would that help? Also, I was thinking

of
>reducing the amount of yeast, which would also help with slowing the

rise, I
>would think (I'm not a very good bread baker, however, so feel free to


>correct me). Could we be over-kneading?

Such short time process as done in baking schools promotes higher dough
temperature which is also another reason for a bread that hardens
rapidly.. it is not about overkneading but the dough seems to be warmer
than normal.

That is promoted also by consistent high proofing temperature to an
already warm dough
I am not sure if your oven has the right temperature baking a challah
ring for 180 and 11 minutes looks short for me. Maybe it was more.
Was the ring thin looking that it dried up the oven? Yes its texture
is soft when freshly baked but when it cools down it becomes hard
easily.
Another thing is the bread appears underproofed . does the bread feels
heavy for its size ?
>I should also mention, that because of the high turnovers we generally

pack
>up our goods to take home while they're still hot--we usually only get

about
>15 minutes cooling rack time. They provide us with plastic bags to do

so.
>I'm thinking of bringing my own paper bags. Would that help, at all?
>(note: this may be reposted to e-Gullet in some form, just in case

you also
>read that group)

Rapid cooling does not affect the softness of the loaf,from how I see
it your bread before and after it was baked is inferior , appears dry
and feels heavy in my minds eye.
In conclusion it was a lousy bread.
You should have placed it on the head of your teacher as a symbolic
crown for his stupid bread making style<g>
Your class should have invited your instructor to the park and play
Frisbee with your recently baked Japanese style challah<g>
As a remedy you can follow the recipe for challah from a well know
baking book used by the folks in alt bread recipes and compare the
result.
Roy

Roy

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Monsur Fromage du Pollet
 
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Rona Y. wrote on 22 Apr 2005 in rec.food.baking

> I've been taking bread baking classes at a school in Japan. This
> is a school geared towards single women hoping for husbands and
> newly married women who can't cook. I'm neither, but I digress...
> I mention the typical clientele because I think it influences the
> bread-baking techniques used at the school (primarily the fast
> rises).
>
> I've been finding that my breads from this place must be eaten
> while hot or they end up hard and tough--even after just one
> night. Almost all the breads use some butter and many of them use
> egg, as well. For example, last night I made the Japanese version
> of challah. The recipe included
>
> 250g flour (about 12.6% protein)
> 2 T sugar
> 1.5 tsp yeast
> 1/2 tsp salt
> 40g butter
> 110cc water
> 52 g egg (about 1 medium)
>
> IME with American bread recipes, these recipes tend to use more
> yeast (in proportion to the amount of flour).
>
> The way the breads are made--a very soft dough is kneaded until it
> begins to take shape (form a ball), then kneaded again (in a
> different manner), then allowed to rise. At this school, because
> they require a high turnover of classes, they use proofing boxes
> set to 40C. For the Challah recipe, the dough was allowed to rise
> for about 30 minutes. After punching the dough down, it is
> allowed to rest--in this case 15 minutes, usually about 10
> minutes. Then the breads are shaped and placed in the proofing
> box--usually for 20-30 minutes, depending on the recipe. Finally
> baked--at the school I currently attend, we use small
> gas/convection ovens. The challah was baked in a braided ring
> shape, at 180C for 12 minutes.
>
> Is there anything about the recipe and/or technique that seems to
> point towards making tough breads? I would like to take these
> recipes but make them at home with slower rises--would that help?
> Also, I was thinking of reducing the amount of yeast, which would
> also help with slowing the rise, I would think (I'm not a very
> good bread baker, however, so feel free to correct me). Could we
> be over-kneading?
>
> I should also mention, that because of the high turnovers we
> generally pack up our goods to take home while they're still
> hot--we usually only get about 15 minutes cooling rack time. They
> provide us with plastic bags to do so. I'm thinking of bringing my
> own paper bags. Would that help, at all?
>
> (note: this may be reposted to e-Gullet in some form, just in
> case you also read that group)



Hope this is of some help.
Reinhart's Challah from crust and crumb:

3.5 cups bread flour
1/4 cup sugar
1 tsp salt
2 tsp (.22 oz) yeast
2 tbsp unsalted butter (about 1/2 of what you're using I guess)
2 large egg yolks, beaten plus 1 yolk for egg wash
1/4 cup milk, at room temp
1/2 cup water at room temp
poppy or seasame seeds for topping (optional)
veggie oil cooking spray


--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic Since Aug 2004
1AC- 7.2, 7.3, 5.5, 5.6 mmol
Weight from 265 down to 219 lbs. and dropping.
Continuing to be Manitoban
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rona Y.
 
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Roy wrote:

> Nope ....the yeast is already high enough comparable with western
> cookbooks but the sugar is high and the salt is less but considering
> the salt in butter the toal salt will be in the vicinity of 1.3%


Sorry, this recipe was a bad example. I've made breads at this school that
call for a tablespoon of yeast for about 180-200 grams of flour. Isn't
that a lot of yeast?

> Such short time process as done in baking schools promotes higher
> dough temperature which is also another reason for a bread that
> hardens rapidly.. it is not about overkneading but the dough seems to
> be warmer than normal.
>


So if I were to slow down the process--use a longer rise in the fridge, for
example, would I get a better textured bread? I'm not asking about this
challah recipe, in particular, but any recipe using this type of short time
process. I have made some breads at this school that I rather liked, but I
generally cannot eat them all before they get hard (and one recipe is
usually only for 6 buns!).

> That is promoted also by consistent high proofing temperature to an
> already warm dough
> I am not sure if your oven has the right temperature baking a challah
> ring for 180 and 11 minutes looks short for me. Maybe it was more.
> Was the ring thin looking that it dried up the oven?


It was 12 minutes at 180C. These are small convection gas ovens which in my
experience, do bake more quickly than North American-sized ovens, though.
I've had to make both temperature and time adjustments to my North American
baking recipes here.

>Yes its texture
> is soft when freshly baked but when it cools down it becomes hard
> easily.
> Another thing is the bread appears underproofed . does the bread feels
> heavy for its size ?


I didn't think it felt heavy, at all. But then, I'm comparing it with other
breads I've made at this school. The dough had risen sufficiently, though.


> Rapid cooling does not affect the softness of the loaf,from how I see
> it your bread before and after it was baked is inferior , appears
> dry and feels heavy in my minds eye.
> In conclusion it was a lousy bread.
> You should have placed it on the head of your teacher as a symbolic
> crown for his stupid bread making style<g>
> Your class should have invited your instructor to the park and play
> Frisbee with your recently baked Japanese style challah<g>
> As a remedy you can follow the recipe for challah from a well know
> baking book used by the folks in alt bread recipes and compare the
> result.


Thanks. I'm actually not that interested in challah :-o! I just used that
recipe as an example. Now that I'm learning how to knead sticky doughs and
such, however, I would like to start experimenting with artisinal-type
breads and some rare (in Japan) breads. I can get some fabulous breads here
in Japan, but cannot get a good loaf of sourdough, rye, or pumpernickle!

rona

--
***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!***

"[America] is filled with people who decided not to live in Europe. We
had people who really wanted to live in Europe, but didn't have the
energy to go back. We call them Canadians." ---Grover Norquist in
Newsweek, November 22, 2004




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Rona Y.
 
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Monsur Fromage du Pollet wrote:

>
> Hope this is of some help.
> Reinhart's Challah from crust and crumb:
>
> 3.5 cups bread flour
> 1/4 cup sugar
> 1 tsp salt
> 2 tsp (.22 oz) yeast
> 2 tbsp unsalted butter (about 1/2 of what you're using I guess)
> 2 large egg yolks, beaten plus 1 yolk for egg wash
> 1/4 cup milk, at room temp
> 1/2 cup water at room temp
> poppy or seasame seeds for topping (optional)
> veggie oil cooking spray


Thanks. I wasn't really looking for a challah recipe, but this looks good!
Maybe I can make it for French toast or something like that.

rona

--
***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!***

"[America] is filled with people who decided not to live in Europe. We
had people who really wanted to live in Europe, but didn't have the
energy to go back. We call them Canadians." ---Grover Norquist in
Newsweek, November 22, 2004


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Roy
 
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>Sorry, this recipe was a bad example.

Not really ,,,,that is a typical example of Japanese type breads.

>I've made breads at this school that
>call for a tablespoon of yeast for about 180-200 grams of flour.

Isn't
>that a lot of yeast?


Huh, that is very high Rona ....that yeast level is already equivalent
to more than 12% of fresh yeast! That high amount is applied in some
sweet dough and coffeecakes.

..>So if I were to slow down the process--use a longer rise in the
fridge, for
>example, would I get a better textured bread? I'm not asking about

this
>challah recipe, in particular, but any recipe using this type of short

time
>process.


A short time process recipe can be modified by cooling it down so as to
slow the fermentation...yes that will confer some improvement to your
product quality.But its better to try alternative recipes from western
made books, but if your taste is fixed on sweet Asian type breads that
might be difficult for you.to do.

> I have made some breads at this school that I rather liked, but I
>generally cannot eat them all before they get hard (and one recipe is
>usually only for 6 buns!).


That is understandable,,,even in France the kind of French Baguette
that is sold in huge quantities is considered as thrash after 5 hours!
The really good French bread made by traditional method can last even
for a few days, some of those breads are best eaten a day old!,

>It was 12 minutes at 180C. These are small convection gas ovens which

in my
>experience, do bake more quickly than North American-sized ovens,

though.
>I've had to make both temperature and time adjustments to my North

American
>baking recipes here


Ahh,,, that makes sense....convection oven had a different baking
performance and requirements if compared to the normal deck type
oven..Indeed with such oven you are obliged to bake the dough at lower
temperature and time.

>I didn't think it felt heavy, at all. But then, I'm comparing it

with other
>breads I've made at this school. The dough had risen sufficiently,

though.

Hmnn ....I understand now....these Asian breads are peculiar in their
own....I had made Asian type breads in previous years, and if you have
to think about the system and compare the recipe,.... by western
standards, looks odd....Most of Asian breads are made by short time
process anayway.

>Thanks. I'm actually not that interested in challah :-o! I just used

that
>recipe as an example. Now that I'm learning how to knead sticky

doughs and
>such, however, I would like to start experimenting with artisinal-type


>breads and some rare (in Japan) breads. I can get some fabulous

breads here
>in Japan, but cannot get a good loaf of sourdough, rye, or

pumpernickle!

It is good to know that you are amenable to western type of
breadmaking, but to attain that goal your have to broaden your
perspective about breads, and see those things from a westerner point
of view, then it will be easier to make those breads yourselves once
you get the idea how those breads should appear feel and taste.
You can start your artisan baking journey by getting hold of those
books that are mentioned in the alt.bread. recipes FAQ.
I wish the best of luck for your baking journey Rona!
Roy

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Janet Bostwick
 
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"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
snip
> You can start your artisan baking journey by getting hold of those
> books that are mentioned in the alt.bread. recipes FAQ.
> I wish the best of luck for your baking journey Rona!
> Roy
>

alt.bread.recipes FAQ (under construction)
http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/faq_abr.php


  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
PlaneGuy
 
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The FAQ has just been moved (just drop the faq_abr.php, from that
address and you'll find the bew version).

Specifically, you can find the books that Roy is talking about at:
http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/index....n=faq&page=151.

Janet Bostwick wrote:
> "Roy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> snip
>
>>You can start your artisan baking journey by getting hold of those
>>books that are mentioned in the alt.bread. recipes FAQ.
>>I wish the best of luck for your baking journey Rona!
>>Roy
>>

>
> alt.bread.recipes FAQ (under construction)
> http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/faq_abr.php
>
>

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