Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 03:14 AM
Eric Jorgensen
 
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On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:39:56 -0600
Mike Avery wrote:


I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can
knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then
it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser.



That and the nylon gears, and lack of an overload breaker on the motor.

  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 03:18 AM
FREECYCLE MOM
 
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"The Cook" wrote in message
...
Dave Bell wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Roy wrote:

The same with mixers, I preferred the equipment that had been
proven
for reliability and consistent performance for years and nothing
beats
the good and loyal ol' HOBART mixers!
I think this is what hobbyist bakers should look for; If you are
a
serious kitchen denizen and a dedicated baking& cooking
enthusiast and
preferred a multipurpose durable machine, you should go for an
equipment that can last a life time.
Roy


Well said, and very good advice. However, for the *small* (quantity)
home
baker (whether frequent or in-), is there a reasonable, scaled-down
version of the great Hobart, that can handle 5 to 7 quarts, instead
of
20-plus?

Dave



http://www.acemart.com/merchant.mv?S...Code=HOBN50-64

But it sure looks like my Hobart era Kitchen Aid.


It says Hobart and the price sounds like Hobart.

Freecyclemom


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 08:29 AM
Joschi Kley
 
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Mike Avery wrote:
....

I have a Hobart era KitchenAid, a K45SS.


....

Does that mean, that all K45SS do incorporate the technology of Hobart
era KAs?
I bought mine (K45SS 250W 220V for Europe) a month ago as a special
edition called "Classic". The Motor does sound very sturdy to me - a lot
different from the "Ultra Power" my friends have at home, but I did not
yet open it to search for any nylon parts.

Or is it just the normal modern machine with all it`s weaknesses?

Joschi

--
Address: To mail me: Please change gml to gmx.

  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 03:35 PM
Mike Avery
 
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Eric Jorgensen wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:39:56 -0600
Mike Avery wrote:




I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser.



That and the nylon gears, and lack of an overload breaker on the motor.

The nylon gear has been a part of the K45 series since, at least, the
late 1970's when I bought my mixer. It is, whether you like it or not,
a reasonable design feature. It allows repair by replacing an
inexpensive nylon gear, rather than requiring the mixer to be striped
down, degreased, and relubed to remove the metal fragments when a metal
gear fails.

There is ALWAYS a weakest spot in any design. With the nylon gear, it's
easily repairable. With all metal gears, there is no telling which gear
would fail.

I've used my mixer heavilly since I bought it in the late 70's. The
nylon gear hasn't failed. Despite heavy and frequent use.

If modern KA's are failing too often, something I can't judge, I don't
think its due to the nylon gear.

Mike

  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 03:35 PM
Mike Avery
 
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Eric Jorgensen wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:39:56 -0600
Mike Avery wrote:




I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser.



That and the nylon gears, and lack of an overload breaker on the motor.

The nylon gear has been a part of the K45 series since, at least, the
late 1970's when I bought my mixer. It is, whether you like it or not,
a reasonable design feature. It allows repair by replacing an
inexpensive nylon gear, rather than requiring the mixer to be striped
down, degreased, and relubed to remove the metal fragments when a metal
gear fails.

There is ALWAYS a weakest spot in any design. With the nylon gear, it's
easily repairable. With all metal gears, there is no telling which gear
would fail.

I've used my mixer heavilly since I bought it in the late 70's. The
nylon gear hasn't failed. Despite heavy and frequent use.

If modern KA's are failing too often, something I can't judge, I don't
think its due to the nylon gear.

Mike



  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 03:40 PM
Mike Avery
 
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Joschi Kley wrote:

Mike Avery wrote:

I have a Hobart era KitchenAid, a K45SS.


Does that mean, that all K45SS do incorporate the technology of Hobart
era KAs?
I bought mine (K45SS 250W 220V for Europe) a month ago as a special
edition called "Classic". The Motor does sound very sturdy to me - a
lot different from the "Ultra Power" my friends have at home, but I
did not yet open it to search for any nylon parts.

Or is it just the normal modern machine with all it`s weaknesses?


Hard to say. The nylon part is, except to some people who seem to enjoy
whinging, a non-issue. It will fail when the machine is abused, and
since the failure point is known, the cost of repairs is minimized.

ANY machine can and will fail when abused long enough and hard enough.
My 70's vintage KA has the nylon gear. Neither the mixer nor the gear
have failed yet.

As a side note, the issues with KA's failing do not have to do with the
wattage of the motor. When we were running a bakery we had an ancient
Hobart which was only a 300 or 400 watt mixer. It mixed 30 quarts of
dough with aplomb. All day long, batch after batch.

The issue is, at risk of repeating myself, that Hobart mixers have
transmissions and single speed motors. Thus, the motor is always
running at its optimum speed. Variable speed motors, such as are used
in most consumer products, have an inherent problem. Kneading bread
takes lots of torque and power. But it has to be delivered at a low
speed, since dough should be kneaded slowly. And that is where
electrical motors are least able to deliver torque and power. Which
causes motors to overheat and fail.

Mike

  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 04:23 PM
Eric Jorgensen
 
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:35:12 -0600
Mike Avery wrote:

Eric Jorgensen wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:39:56 -0600
Mike Avery wrote:




I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can

knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then
it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser.


That and the nylon gears, and lack of an overload breaker on the motor.

The nylon gear has been a part of the K45 series since, at least, the
late 1970's when I bought my mixer. It is, whether you like it or not,
a reasonable design feature. It allows repair by replacing an
inexpensive nylon gear, rather than requiring the mixer to be striped
down, degreased, and relubed to remove the metal fragments when a metal
gear fails.

There is ALWAYS a weakest spot in any design. With the nylon gear, it's
easily repairable. With all metal gears, there is no telling which gear
would fail.



It's a very smart design feature that allows them to make a cheap
machine that fails in a predictable way.

What i would prefer is an actual circuit breaker that trips when the
motor is drawing too much power and is thus straining too hard. Given an
appropriate circuit breaker, the metal gear would never have the
opportunity to strip out.

I think Whirlpool wouldn't consider that a feature, because people would
call their mixers 'weak' for refusing to turn when overloaded. Also, the
motors would last longer because it would be a real hassle to run them
overloaded, and that means fewer sales.

So they'd have to use a stronger motor, which would cost more money,
which doesn't make sense because most of the people who buy their mixers
treat it essentially like a fashion accessory, occasionally using it for a
single loaf of bread or a batch of cookies as a function of domestic bliss,
or occasionally to attempt a recipe they saw on tv.

I have a similar complaint about consumer grade ice cream mixers - why
does every single one of them tell you it's done mixing by stalling and
overheating? Needs a breaker that turns off the motor at the appropriate
level of resistance from the work load.


I've used my mixer heavilly since I bought it in the late 70's. The
nylon gear hasn't failed. Despite heavy and frequent use.

If modern KA's are failing too often, something I can't judge, I don't
think its due to the nylon gear.



I have to admit that the only one I've personally seen fail in recent
years, probably didn't break the gear. It was a 2 year old KA
"Professional" that, I'm told, when mixing a double batch of cookies, just
plain stopped.

Doesn't so much as hum when switched on now. Can't find anything
physically wrong with it. It just doesn't turn on.

So they bought a Bosch Universal instead. Which i found very odd
considering they'd just gone on the atkins diet.

They used it to make some atkins-friendly muffins. At least the recipe
says they're muffins. It turns out that when you mix "high protein" flour
on high for 5 minutes you get a substance not unlike rubber.

I don't see why we argue about this. A lot of people like the KA just
fine and they can keep using them. If people ask my opinion I'll tell 'em
what i think of them. For most people they're probably just fine.

If you bake heavily, like your life depends on it, it might let you
down, or you may have preconceptions that may turn out to be disastrous.

This is the way i was brought up - 5th of 8 kids, Bosch Universal
cranking out between 7 and 11 loaves of whole wheat bread per week, up to
six loaves per batch. My eldest sister still uses the Bosch we bought in
about 1978, mom bought a new one in '89 iirc. Every member of the family
without exception learned how to cook and bake at a very young age, and Dad
taught all of us how to make bread as soon as we were strong enough to
shape the loaves.

I could make spaghetti when i was 3, I could make it *well when i was 4.
Cookies, cakes, biscuits, etc, on my own by about 7. Bread at 10, iirc.
I'm not talking about hanging around Mom and fetching ingredients, I'm
talking about being the only person in the kitchen and occasionally having
to ask someone a question. Remarkably, nobody was badly injured. Cut my
finger once dicing some carrots, that's about it.

People worry about kids in the kitchen but honestly the only hard part
is proper knife handling. Aside from that the rules are "don't touch things
that are hot" and "don't stick tools in the mixer when it's running"

As for me, Whirlpool is on my list of vendors of last resort. Something
about loathing every appliance I've ever used with their mark on it. The
bane of my existence as a cook and baker is the Whirlpool range in this
apartment. I'll never buy anything from the washing machine company if i
can avoid it, and that's just the way it is.

So i have a clear and stated bias against the KA, but i also have
rational objections to their design.

You know what kills me? Every cook on FoodTV except Jacques Torres uses
a KA. Jacques has his Hobart N-50 prominently displayed, but what does he
use it for?! Nothing but meringue and ganache! And it's not even proper
meringue!

There used to be another pastry chef on another show, and she had an
N-50 as well, and also used it only for the light and fluffy . . . .

  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 05:31 PM
Mike Avery
 
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Eric Jorgensen wrote:

I don't see why we argue about this. A lot of people like the KA just
fine and they can keep using them. If people ask my opinion I'll tell 'em what i think of them. For most people they're probably just fine.

The big issue for me is that I think people don't like KA's for the
wrong reasons. "The nylon gear!" is used as a reason to hate KA's and
Whirlpool. But, the gear predates Whirlpool's aquisition of KA from Hobart.

Since I don't have a Whirlpool era KA, I don't know how much the product
has gone downhill. Or if it has at all. Every manufacturer makes its
share of lemons, and the KA that started leaking oi is clearly a quality
control issues. Still, I am not sure how much of the KA reliability
issue is due to people who don't read the manual, overuse the machines,
and then complain that the product is inferior.

Mike

  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 09:57 PM
Roger
 
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I mix my bread (up to 6-8 loaves at a time) in my Universal Bread Pail.
It never stalls, never breaks, works like a champ, and you don't even
have to plug it in. They ususally cost only about $20 on Ebay to boot
(make sure you get the clamp!). Sometimes old technology has its place.

If you're feeling lazy you can chuck a dough hook into your drill press
(you have one, right?) and do some serious kneading. For the price of a
low-end KitchenAid you can get an industrial-stength motor built to
crank that kind of load all day long. Plus it has a vast number of other
uses.

I have an electric mixer but it goes virtually unused. A spoon, a wire
whisk, or the bread pail are almost always faster, easier and more
convenient as well as providing better feedback about what's going on in
the bowl.

Roger
  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 26-04-2005, 11:11 PM
Dave Bell
 
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Roger wrote:

If you're feeling lazy you can chuck a dough hook into your drill press
(you have one, right?) and do some serious kneading. For the price of a
low-end KitchenAid you can get an industrial-stength motor built to
crank that kind of load all day long. Plus it has a vast number of other
uses.

Roger


Huh! Now, that's an interesting idea!
I'll have to look at mine, but I'm not sure how slow I can get it to run.
What's a good RPM for bread kneading, anyway?!?

Dave


  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 27-04-2005, 12:21 AM
FREECYCLE MOM
 
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"Roger" wrote in message
...
I mix my bread (up to 6-8 loaves at a time) in my Universal Bread
Pail. It never stalls, never breaks, works like a champ, and you
don't even have to plug it in. They ususally cost only about $20 on
Ebay to boot (make sure you get the clamp!). Sometimes old technology
has its place.

Do these have a brand name? I did a google search for "Universal
Bread Pail" and came up with nothing.



  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 27-04-2005, 12:21 AM
FREECYCLE MOM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Roger" wrote in message
...
I mix my bread (up to 6-8 loaves at a time) in my Universal Bread
Pail. It never stalls, never breaks, works like a champ, and you
don't even have to plug it in. They ususally cost only about $20 on
Ebay to boot (make sure you get the clamp!). Sometimes old technology
has its place.

Do these have a brand name? I did a google search for "Universal
Bread Pail" and came up with nothing.



  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 27-04-2005, 03:57 AM
GMAN
 
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Default

In article therwhen.com, A ported usenet newsgroup wrote:
Joschi Kley wrote:

Mike Avery wrote:

I have a Hobart era KitchenAid, a K45SS.


Does that mean, that all K45SS do incorporate the technology of Hobart
era KAs?
I bought mine (K45SS 250W 220V for Europe) a month ago as a special
edition called "Classic". The Motor does sound very sturdy to me - a
lot different from the "Ultra Power" my friends have at home, but I
did not yet open it to search for any nylon parts.

Or is it just the normal modern machine with all it`s weaknesses?


Hard to say. The nylon part is, except to some people who seem to enjoy
whinging, a non-issue. It will fail when the machine is abused, and
since the failure point is known, the cost of repairs is minimized.

ANY machine can and will fail when abused long enough and hard enough.
My 70's vintage KA has the nylon gear. Neither the mixer nor the gear
have failed yet.

As a side note, the issues with KA's failing do not have to do with the
wattage of the motor. When we were running a bakery we had an ancient
Hobart which was only a 300 or 400 watt mixer. It mixed 30 quarts of
dough with aplomb. All day long, batch after batch.

The issue is, at risk of repeating myself, that Hobart mixers have
transmissions and single speed motors. Thus, the motor is always
running at its optimum speed. Variable speed motors, such as are used
in most consumer products, have an inherent problem. Kneading bread
takes lots of torque and power. But it has to be delivered at a low
speed, since dough should be kneaded slowly. And that is where
electrical motors are least able to deliver torque and power. Which
causes motors to overheat and fail.

Mike

What about the K5SS model, its a hobart made unit that was given to me by an
old lady in our neighborhood. How old is it (I assume 70's era) and does it
have nylon gears, and does it use a single speed motor with gears?


I also could use a manual if some kind soul could photocopy and sell me a copy
of it.

PS: this thing is mint, not even dirty or scratched at all.


  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 27-04-2005, 03:57 AM
GMAN
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article therwhen.com, A ported usenet newsgroup wrote:
Joschi Kley wrote:

Mike Avery wrote:

I have a Hobart era KitchenAid, a K45SS.


Does that mean, that all K45SS do incorporate the technology of Hobart
era KAs?
I bought mine (K45SS 250W 220V for Europe) a month ago as a special
edition called "Classic". The Motor does sound very sturdy to me - a
lot different from the "Ultra Power" my friends have at home, but I
did not yet open it to search for any nylon parts.

Or is it just the normal modern machine with all it`s weaknesses?


Hard to say. The nylon part is, except to some people who seem to enjoy
whinging, a non-issue. It will fail when the machine is abused, and
since the failure point is known, the cost of repairs is minimized.

ANY machine can and will fail when abused long enough and hard enough.
My 70's vintage KA has the nylon gear. Neither the mixer nor the gear
have failed yet.

As a side note, the issues with KA's failing do not have to do with the
wattage of the motor. When we were running a bakery we had an ancient
Hobart which was only a 300 or 400 watt mixer. It mixed 30 quarts of
dough with aplomb. All day long, batch after batch.

The issue is, at risk of repeating myself, that Hobart mixers have
transmissions and single speed motors. Thus, the motor is always
running at its optimum speed. Variable speed motors, such as are used
in most consumer products, have an inherent problem. Kneading bread
takes lots of torque and power. But it has to be delivered at a low
speed, since dough should be kneaded slowly. And that is where
electrical motors are least able to deliver torque and power. Which
causes motors to overheat and fail.

Mike

What about the K5SS model, its a hobart made unit that was given to me by an
old lady in our neighborhood. How old is it (I assume 70's era) and does it
have nylon gears, and does it use a single speed motor with gears?


I also could use a manual if some kind soul could photocopy and sell me a copy
of it.

PS: this thing is mint, not even dirty or scratched at all.


  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 27-04-2005, 02:07 PM
Roger
 
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FREECYCLE MOM wrote:
"Roger" wrote in message
...

I mix my bread (up to 6-8 loaves at a time) in my Universal Bread
Pail. It never stalls, never breaks, works like a champ, and you
don't even have to plug it in. They ususally cost only about $20 on
Ebay to boot (make sure you get the clamp!). Sometimes old technology
has its place.


Do these have a brand name? I did a google search for "Universal
Bread Pail" and came up with nothing.

Look on Ebay searching for "Universal bread". There are six of them
available this morning. The correct term seems to be "bread maker"
rather than bread pail.

See, for example
http://digital.lib.msu.edu/projects/cookbooks/html/museum/object_006.html


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