Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
D O'Reilly
 
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Default Icing secret ???

I'm icing a cake for a family members wedding , can anyone give me the
best recipe for icing, that i can use to pipe the bride and groom's
names on the cake.
Also any tips on how to actually pipe the lettering (as i have never
done it before)professionally on the cake,your comment's will be
gratefully recieved.
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Margaret Robinson
 
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Default Icing secret ???


"D O'Reilly" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm icing a cake for a family members wedding , can anyone give me the
> best recipe for icing, that i can use to pipe the bride and groom's
> names on the cake.
> Also any tips on how to actually pipe the lettering (as i have never
> done it before)professionally on the cake,your comment's will be
> gratefully recieved.


Lettering on a cake is rough, because there's no easy way to erase a mistake
and you have to move fairly quickly to get the writing to look smooth.

I'd cheat.

I like using either royal icing (which hardens really hard (ever had those
rock-hard candy roses? That's royal icing). I'd recommend making a batch
and practicing on wax paper. Then you can let the letters (or whole words)
harden, pick the ones you like, and take them with you to put on the cake.

I transport icing pieces in old margarine containers, cushioned inside by
paper towel.

Royal icing recipies are available online if you google them.


  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
D O'Reilly
 
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"Margaret Robinson" > wrote in message m>...
> "D O'Reilly" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I'm icing a cake for a family members wedding , can anyone give me the
> > best recipe for icing, that i can use to pipe the bride and groom's
> > names on the cake.
> > Also any tips on how to actually pipe the lettering (as i have never
> > done it before)professionally on the cake,your comment's will be
> > gratefully recieved.

>
> Lettering on a cake is rough, because there's no easy way to erase a mistake
> and you have to move fairly quickly to get the writing to look smooth.
>
> I'd cheat.
>
> I like using either royal icing (which hardens really hard (ever had those
> rock-hard candy roses? That's royal icing). I'd recommend making a batch
> and practicing on wax paper. Then you can let the letters (or whole words)
> harden, pick the ones you like, and take them with you to put on the cake.
>
> I transport icing pieces in old margarine containers, cushioned inside by
> paper towel.
>
> Royal icing recipies are available online if you google them.


Thankyou Margaret.
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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Default Icing secret ???


"D O'Reilly" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm icing a cake for a family members wedding , can anyone give me the
> best recipe for icing, that i can use to pipe the bride and groom's
> names on the cake.
> Also any tips on how to actually pipe the lettering (as i have never
> done it before)professionally on the cake,your comment's will be
> gratefully recieved.


I would recommend that you pick up a book on basic cake decorating. Wilton
has several inexpensive books on the subject. I believe that the Wilton
Yearbook of cake decorating has some recipes and some basic instructions on
cake decorating. You can buy one where Wilton cake decorating supplies are
sold (most craft stores.) You might also look at their website
www.wilton.com There are a number of projects listed along with recipes.


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Puester
 
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D O'Reilly wrote:
>
> I'm icing a cake for a family members wedding , can anyone give me the
> best recipe for icing, that i can use to pipe the bride and groom's
> names on the cake.
> Also any tips on how to actually pipe the lettering (as i have never
> done it before)professionally on the cake,your comment's will be
> gratefully recieved.



1. You have taken on a monumental task if you have no
cake decorating experience. Can you find someone else
to do the decorating if you bake the cake? Could you ask
a local baker or even the supermarket cake decorator if
he/she will do the fancy stuff for you for a price?

2. Go to the library, get as many books on cake decorating
as you can find, and practice, practice, practice doing
decorations on sheets of waxed paper.

3. As I think back on all the wedding cakes I have seen,
I have NEVER seen one with writing on it. They usually
have shell designs or garlands made of royal icing and
flowers, either icing or real live flowers, and sometimes
figurines on top, but no names. All the guests will know
who the bride and groom are by name,anyway.

Good luck!

gloria p


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"Puester" > wrote in message
...
> D O'Reilly wrote:
> >
> > I'm icing a cake for a family members wedding , can anyone give me the
> > best recipe for icing, that i can use to pipe the bride and groom's
> > names on the cake.
> > Also any tips on how to actually pipe the lettering (as i have never
> > done it before)professionally on the cake,your comment's will be
> > gratefully recieved.

>
>
> 1. You have taken on a monumental task if you have no
> cake decorating experience. Can you find someone else
> to do the decorating if you bake the cake? Could you ask
> a local baker or even the supermarket cake decorator if
> he/she will do the fancy stuff for you for a price?
>
> 2. Go to the library, get as many books on cake decorating
> as you can find, and practice, practice, practice doing
> decorations on sheets of waxed paper.
>
> 3. As I think back on all the wedding cakes I have seen,
> I have NEVER seen one with writing on it. They usually
> have shell designs or garlands made of royal icing and
> flowers, either icing or real live flowers, and sometimes
> figurines on top, but no names. All the guests will know
> who the bride and groom are by name,anyway.
>
> Good luck!


I agree with you on all points. However, I really doubt that a bakery would
decorate a cake that someone else baked. The person who decorates the
cakes, however, might agree to do it "on the side." That said, about 90% of
the work in producing a wedding cake is in the decorating, so I doubt that
it would save money to contract out the decorating. I would suggest that
the OP approach the bakery and ask how much some simply decorated "party
cakes" would cost, without letting them know it was for a wedding. You
might be able to get a 6", 9", and 12" cake with a simple top and bottom
border and perhaps some garlands and/or flowers for much less than the same
cakes that were ordered as wedding cakes. The OP could then arrange them on
a stand or stack them using plates and pillars. The final decorations might
be some fresh flowers. I did a stunning cake last year with white frosting,
simple boarders, and a mound of red and white dahlias from the garden. You
could use carnation, mums, lilies, roses or other flower from the florist.

I questioned the writing on the cake, but it is their wedding and if they
want writing on the cake then they should get writing on the cake. As you
point out, it isn't traditional. I have seen a lot of example of cakes for
bridal SHOWERS with writing on them. That makes some sense to me since the
groom usually doesn't attend the shower.

As for the design issue. I do think that it is possible to make an
acceptable wedding cake without a lot of fancy decorations. Wilton
generally has a few cakes in their publications that are very simple. In
fact, you could use a comb on the sides of the cakes and that would
eliminate the need to have them frosted smoothly. A simple shell border on
the top and bottom wouldn't be too hard to produce. You can buy flowers
made in both royal frosting and gum paste. Fresh flowers would be another
good alternative.

The thing I would recommend staying away from is stacking the cakes. I
certainly wouldn't go very high with them as it is an invitation to
disaster. However, there are all manner of cake stands available that
eliminate the need to stack the cakes.



  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
wheeitsme
 
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Default Icing secret ???

"Margaret Robinson" > wrote in message m>...
> "D O'Reilly" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I'm icing a cake for a family members wedding , can anyone give me the
> > best recipe for icing, that i can use to pipe the bride and groom's
> > names on the cake.
> > Also any tips on how to actually pipe the lettering (as i have never
> > done it before)professionally on the cake,your comment's will be
> > gratefully recieved.

>
> Lettering on a cake is rough, because there's no easy way to erase a mistake
> and you have to move fairly quickly to get the writing to look smooth.
>
> I'd cheat.
>
> I like using either royal icing (which hardens really hard (ever had those
> rock-hard candy roses? That's royal icing). I'd recommend making a batch
> and practicing on wax paper. Then you can let the letters (or whole words)
> harden, pick the ones you like, and take them with you to put on the cake.
>
> I transport icing pieces in old margarine containers, cushioned inside by
> paper towel.
>
> Royal icing recipies are available online if you google them.



....another option (if you have good handwriting) would be to take a
bamboo skewer and lightly write on the cake with that, and then use
that as a guide to pipe the words...
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy Basan
 
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"Vox Humana" > wrote in message >...

> > Most icings are sickeningly sweet. Heres one thats not:
> > coconut oil block
> > water
> > cardamom
> >
> > heat the block in just a little water, say water is 10-20% of the
> > block quantity. Heat very slowly and very gently, the coconut will
> > gradually melt into the water. Add a pinch of cardamom powder, mix it
> > up, adjust water content to determine how stiff the set icing is. This
> > is a true quality icing, not like the usual slab of sugar offering.

>
> Frankly, it sounds disgusting. Also, I have never seen "coconut oil block"
> available in any store including baking supply stores.


REally it is....
Even if you use cocoa butter as coating it will still taste weird...


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
N. Thornton
 
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"Vox Humana" > wrote in message >...
> "Roy Basan" > wrote in message
> om...

NT wrote:

> > > > Most icings are sickeningly sweet. Heres one thats not:
> > > > coconut oil block
> > > > water
> > > > cardamom
> > > >
> > > > heat the block in just a little water, say water is 10-20% of the
> > > > block quantity. Heat very slowly and very gently, the coconut will
> > > > gradually melt into the water. Add a pinch of cardamom powder, mix it
> > > > up, adjust water content to determine how stiff the set icing is. This
> > > > is a true quality icing, not like the usual slab of sugar offering.
> > >
> > > Frankly, it sounds disgusting. Also, I have never seen "coconut oil

> block"
> > > available in any store including baking supply stores.

> >
> > REally it is....
> > Even if you use cocoa butter as coating it will still taste weird...

>
> It sounds as delicious as a thick coating of Vaseline.


lol! Its a lovely moist coating. Readers will note youve not actually
tried it.

Regards, NT

PS its not called 'coconut oil block', but thats what it is. I still
cant remember the usual name. Its coconut but not dry slivers, its a
solid block. The dry slivers are no use at all for this.
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Puester
 
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"N. Thornton" wrote:



>
> PS its not called 'coconut oil block', but thats what it is. I still
> cant remember the usual name. Its coconut but not dry slivers, its a
> solid block. The dry slivers are no use at all for this.




Isn't it something like copha?

gloria p
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"N. Thornton" > wrote in message
om...
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message

>...
> > "Roy Basan" > wrote in message
> > om...

> NT wrote:
>
> > > > > Most icings are sickeningly sweet. Heres one thats not:
> > > > > coconut oil block
> > > > > water
> > > > > cardamom
> > > > >
> > > > > heat the block in just a little water, say water is 10-20% of the
> > > > > block quantity. Heat very slowly and very gently, the coconut will
> > > > > gradually melt into the water. Add a pinch of cardamom powder, mix

it
> > > > > up, adjust water content to determine how stiff the set icing is.

This
> > > > > is a true quality icing, not like the usual slab of sugar

offering.
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, it sounds disgusting. Also, I have never seen "coconut oil

> > block"
> > > > available in any store including baking supply stores.
> > >
> > > REally it is....
> > > Even if you use cocoa butter as coating it will still taste weird...

> >
> > It sounds as delicious as a thick coating of Vaseline.

>
> lol! Its a lovely moist coating. Readers will note youve not actually
> tried it.
>


Moist isn't equivalent to delicious. However, I recall reading an obscure
book on the history of wedding cakes which said that cakes were originally
coated with lard as a preservative. Later, sugar was added to the lard and
"frosting" was changed from a preservative to a more palatable finish for a
cake. Of course the cake was probably chock full of rancid nuts and insects
and imbibed with alcohol.


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Roy Basan
 
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(N. Thornton) wrote in message . com>...

> lol! Its a lovely moist coating. Readers will note youve not actually
> tried it.
>
> Regards, NT
>
> PS its not called 'coconut oil block', but thats what it is. I still
> cant remember the usual name. Its coconut but not dry slivers, its a
> solid block. The dry slivers are no use at all for this.


It cannot be called an icing but a coating. A savory and fatty one
devoid of any form of aeration to lighten up the texture.
I have seen some sample of that so called fat block made with coconut
fat. It is called Copha.It is a firm block of fat appearing like
tallow but whiter.
I am using it as the fat component ( instead of costly butter)to
prepare commercial caramel and fudge sweets. From my experience in
using it, its not dispersible in water. It needs an emulsifier.Even if
I add glycerol monostearate( GMS) to form an emulsion( so that caramel
sweet will be homogenous looking) with continous stirring,its is
difficult to disperse in water.
I also notice that if the fat was improperly emulsified in the cooking
of such particular candy, you will find globules of fat on the surface
of the finished confection.
Now going back to your idea of making a water in oil emulsion or i.e.
technically speaking the aqueous phase is dispersed in the fat phase(
or simply a greater ratio of fat in relation to water how do you
stabilize that?
I do not see good stability of such coating.
After a short time the water will ooze out and is called a
phenomenon of emulsion breakdown.
Another thing that is has lower stability is that the fatty acid
called lauric acid is abundant in such fat.In presence of moisture(
you are adding water in it) and the microbes floating in the air will
come in contact with the mixture releasing enzymes( lipases) that will
split the fat (triglyceride) say( palm-oloein
laurein),stearo-laurein palmitin,etc) resulting in the breakdown to
its component palmitic acid, stearic aid, oleic acid and lauric
acid.The last component is responsiblef for the soapy taste.
This lauric acid will react with existing sodium ions ( mineral
content)present in the formulation to form a soap. Therefore in the
end you will end up with a soapy tasting food. Gosh! it might even
slightly foam in the mouth like toothpaste !

Roy
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N. Thornton
 
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(Roy Basan) wrote in message . com>...
>
(N. Thornton) wrote in message . com>...

> > lol! Its a lovely moist coating. Readers will note youve not actually
> > tried it.


> Therefore in the
> end you will end up with a soapy tasting food.



This is all a beautiful illustration of the old saying 'theory and
practice are the same in theory, but different in practice.' Although
what you say might sound believable, its far from what happens. I've
been making coconut icing for years, and whether you believe me or
not, its definitely a superior icing. Try some and find out. If you
dont, youre guessing, or maybe reasoning, but not reasoning right
somewhere.


> It cannot be called an icing but a coating. A savory and fatty one
> devoid of any form of aeration to lighten up the texture.


a guess

> I have seen some sample of that so called fat block made with coconut
> fat. It is called Copha.It is a firm block of fat appearing like
> tallow but whiter.
> I am using it as the fat component ( instead of costly butter)to
> prepare commercial caramel and fudge sweets. From my experience in
> using it, its not dispersible in water. It needs an emulsifier.


no: what you say is true if the concentration is low, but over a wide
range it disperses very well. I've never had a dispersion problem, but
I know not to try using it the way you describe.


> Even if
> I add glycerol monostearate( GMS) to form an emulsion( so that caramel
> sweet will be homogenous looking) with continous stirring,its is
> difficult to disperse in water.
> I also notice that if the fat was improperly emulsified in the cooking
> of such particular candy, you will find globules of fat on the surface
> of the finished confection.


low concentration, different hardening temps probably as well.


> Now going back to your idea of making a water in oil emulsion or i.e.
> technically speaking the aqueous phase is dispersed in the fat phase(
> or simply a greater ratio of fat in relation to water how do you
> stabilize that?
> I do not see good stability of such coating.


its perfectly stable


> After a short time the water will ooze out and is called a
> phenomenon of emulsion breakdown.


doesnt happen. If you store it enough days it will slowly dry, but
slower than sugar icing does.


> Another thing that is has lower stability is that the fatty acid
> called lauric acid is abundant in such fat.In presence of moisture(
> you are adding water in it) and the microbes floating in the air will
> come in contact with the mixture releasing enzymes( lipases) that will
> split the fat (triglyceride) say( palm-oloein
> laurein),stearo-laurein palmitin,etc) resulting in the breakdown to
> its component palmitic acid, stearic aid, oleic acid and lauric
> acid.The last component is responsiblef for the soapy taste.
> This lauric acid will react with existing sodium ions ( mineral
> content)present in the formulation to form a soap. Therefore in the
> end you will end up with a soapy tasting food.


no. There are other constituents in coconut youre overlooking.


Try it, or dont, your choice.


Regards, NT


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Roy Basan
 
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(Roy Basan) wrote in message . com>...
>
(N. Thornton) wrote in message . com>...
> > lol! Its a lovely moist coating. Readers will note youve not actually
> > tried it.

> Therefore in the
> end you will end up with a soapy tasting food.



>This is all a beautiful illustration of the old saying '>theory and
>practice are the same in theory, but different in >practice.'

Although
>what you say might sound believable, its far from what >happens. I've
>been making coconut icing for years, and whether you >believe me or
>not, its definitely a superior icing. Try some and >find out. If you
>dont, youre guessing, or maybe reasoning, but not >reasoning right
>somewhere.


Coconut icing with no sugar? That is a misnomer…
An icing or even called a frosting usually contains sugar. It may or
may not contain fat.Such as the boiled icing and related meringue
based icing.
But what you are talking about is a mixture of coconut oil and
cardamom powder. That is considered a coating and not an icing.
However if that how you call it then that's fine.

I think I will never be able to try that as in my situation icings are
sweet and if its bland and spicy the bakery business will go bankrupt.
You do not make things just to prove a point; I produce things because
somebody needs it and the business I am working with depends on it.


>a guess

It is not a conjecture,,,,What you are doing is considered (frankly
speaking)sheer madness …..
Mixing fat and spice and call that an icing? What a silly idea that
no respectable bakery employer will even think about. being sold in
his bakery.

If I have to make your style use that to coat my cakes and present
that to the customer, ....
Gosh! Somebody will bring a straitjacket to tie me up and bring me to
the insane asylum!
That will be the end to my illustrious and lucrative career.

> I have seen some sample of that so called fat block made with coconut
> fat. It is called Copha.It is a firm block of fat appearing like
> tallow but whiter.
> I am using it as the fat component ( instead of costly butter)to
> prepare commercial caramel and fudge sweets. From my experience in
> using it, its not dispersible in water. It needs an emulsifier.
>
>no: what you say is true if the concentration is low, >but over a

wide
>range it disperses very well. I've never had a >dispersion problem,

but
>I know not to try using it the way you describe.


Well again I do not have the opportunity to verify such claim. If I
will experiment with that (and as requied by company regulation)
record the complete details of the trial in our R&D information
atabase; and somebody in the company reads it; I will be subjected to
ridicule and my professional credibility will be tarnished.
The company technical manager will say ‘there is a wacko in this
establishment.
Get rid of him while he still partly sober!'

> Even if
> I add glycerol monostearate( GMS) to form an emulsion( so that caramel
> sweet will be homogenous looking) with continous stirring,its is
> difficult to disperse in water.
> I also notice that if the fat was improperly emulsified in the cooking
> of such particular candy, you will find globules of fat on the surface
> of the finished confection.


>low concentration, different hardening temps probably >as well.


Well no matter if the concentration is higher or lower. In past
trials with coconut based shortening when I was still in Asia. I had
applied that shortening in many aspects of bakery application. From
bread,cakes, cookies, pastries. It had a consistent result that the
products upon storage( for even a few days) tend to exhibit that soapy
aftertaste and a faint aroma technically described as methyl ketone
which is unpleasant.In some cases it can exhibit an odour of dried
copra.
> Now going back to your idea of making a water in oil emulsion or i.e.
> technically speaking the aqueous phase is dispersed in the fat phase(
> or simply a greater ratio of fat in relation to water how do you
> stabilize that?
> I do not see good stability of such coating.


>its perfectly stable


You still have much to learn about the peculiarity of coconut oil
based fats.
Indeed its stable to oxidative rancidity because of little amount of
linoleic acid; but not to hydrolytic rancidity because of the high
content of lauric fatty acid which is almost 50 Percent of the total
fatty acids in coconut fat.˜ This is why the latter spoilage pathway
is more faster (10X faster if compared to other fats)in coconut fat
than in other oils (except palm kernel oil which is similar in
composition to the coconut and exhibit the same spoilage pattern).
This latter kind of spoilage is common when you put water in the
coconut fat and agitate it without any heat treatment.To tell you I
did not have good success with using coconut fat as the base for white
icing which I had good results with soybean and cottonseed based
shortening in terms which are capable of producing a clean tasting
icing that can carry a wide range of flavors.


If you think that you really love the coconut fat, it implies that you
had a fetish for such fat<g>.

'
If
It just surprises me that you did not even experienced that.

,
> Another thing that is has lower stability is that the fatty acid
> called lauric acid is abundant in such fat.In presence of moisture(
> you are adding water in it) and the microbes floating in the air will
> come in contact with the mixture releasing enzymes( lipases) that will
> split the fat (triglyceride) say( palm-oloein
> laurein),stearo-laurein palmitin,etc) resulting in the breakdown to
> its component palmitic acid, stearic aid, oleic acid and lauric
> acid.The last component is responsiblef for the soapy taste.
> This lauric acid will react with existing sodium ions ( mineral
> content)present in the formulation to form a soap. Therefore in the
> end you will end up with a soapy tasting food.


>no. There are other constituents in coconut youre overlooking.

Wait,,,, what are the constituents of coconut fat?
Let us see the chemistry….
this is the breakdown of the fatty acid content of such fat:
Caprylic acid 7.6%
Capric acid 7.3%
Lauric acid 48.2%
Myristic acid 16.6%
Palmitic acid 8
Palmitoleic acid 1.0%
Stearic acid 3.8%
Oleic acid 5%
Linoleic acid 2.5%

The other fatty acids are found also in other fats such palm oil,
soyabean, corn, sunflower, cottonseed.
So may I ask what are the constituents of coconut fat that I missed?
Unless you are using a proprietary composition that contains not only
coconut but also other materials.

>ry it, or dont, your choice.

Naah, I;'m sorry ……I still love my job….
BTW, when you start making that ‘loony icing' again I think its better
if :
you can start singing at the same time this coconut song<g>.

‘The coconut nut is not a nut.
IF you eat too much you get very fat'
…………
‘It is the coco fruit,
from the coco tree ,
of the coco palm family.'

> NT?

Are you from northern territory in Australia? I was trying to think of
what is the reason for your fondness for coconut.<g>
Northern territory being in the tropical part of australia has lots of
coconut in it.
Regards,
Roy Basan
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N. Thornton
 
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(Roy Basan) wrote in message om>...
> >
(N. Thornton) wrote in message . com>...

> > > lol! Its a lovely moist coating. Readers will note youve not actually
> > > tried it.

> > Therefore in the
> > end you will end up with a soapy tasting food.

>
>
> >This is all a beautiful illustration of the old saying '>theory and
> >practice are the same in theory, but different in >practice.'

> Although
> >what you say might sound believable, its far from what >happens. I've
> >been making coconut icing for years, and whether you >believe me or
> >not, its definitely a superior icing. Try some and >find out. If you
> >dont, youre guessing, or maybe reasoning, but not >reasoning right
> >somewhere.

>
> Coconut icing with no sugar? That is a misnomer?
> An icing or even called a frosting usually contains sugar. It may or
> may not contain fat.Such as the boiled icing and related meringue
> based icing.
> But what you are talking about is a mixture of coconut oil and
> cardamom powder. That is considered a coating and not an icing.
> However if that how you call it then that's fine.
>
> I think I will never be able to try that as in my situation icings are
> sweet and if its bland and spicy the bakery business will go bankrupt.
> You do not make things just to prove a point; I produce things because
> somebody needs it and the business I am working with depends on it.
>
>
> >a guess

> It is not a conjecture,,,,What you are doing is considered (frankly
> speaking)sheer madness ?..
> Mixing fat and spice and call that an icing? What a silly idea that
> no respectable bakery employer will even think about. being sold in
> his bakery.
>
> If I have to make your style use that to coat my cakes and present
> that to the customer, ....
> Gosh! Somebody will bring a straitjacket to tie me up and bring me to
> the insane asylum!
> That will be the end to my illustrious and lucrative career.
>
> > I have seen some sample of that so called fat block made with coconut
> > fat. It is called Copha.It is a firm block of fat appearing like
> > tallow but whiter.
> > I am using it as the fat component ( instead of costly butter)to
> > prepare commercial caramel and fudge sweets. From my experience in
> > using it, its not dispersible in water. It needs an emulsifier.
> >
> >no: what you say is true if the concentration is low, >but over a

> wide
> >range it disperses very well. I've never had a >dispersion problem,

> but
> >I know not to try using it the way you describe.

>
> Well again I do not have the opportunity to verify such claim. If I
> will experiment with that (and as requied by company regulation)
> record the complete details of the trial in our R&D information
> atabase; and somebody in the company reads it; I will be subjected to
> ridicule and my professional credibility will be tarnished.
> The company technical manager will say ?there is a wacko in this
> establishment.
> Get rid of him while he still partly sober!'
>
> > Even if
> > I add glycerol monostearate( GMS) to form an emulsion( so that caramel
> > sweet will be homogenous looking) with continous stirring,its is
> > difficult to disperse in water.
> > I also notice that if the fat was improperly emulsified in the cooking
> > of such particular candy, you will find globules of fat on the surface
> > of the finished confection.

>
> >low concentration, different hardening temps probably >as well.

>
> Well no matter if the concentration is higher or lower. In past
> trials with coconut based shortening when I was still in Asia. I had
> applied that shortening in many aspects of bakery application. From
> bread,cakes, cookies, pastries. It had a consistent result that the
> products upon storage( for even a few days) tend to exhibit that soapy
> aftertaste and a faint aroma technically described as methyl ketone
> which is unpleasant.In some cases it can exhibit an odour of dried
> copra.
> > Now going back to your idea of making a water in oil emulsion or i.e.
> > technically speaking the aqueous phase is dispersed in the fat phase(
> > or simply a greater ratio of fat in relation to water how do you
> > stabilize that?
> > I do not see good stability of such coating.

>
> >its perfectly stable

>
> You still have much to learn about the peculiarity of coconut oil
> based fats.
> Indeed its stable to oxidative rancidity because of little amount of
> linoleic acid; but not to hydrolytic rancidity because of the high
> content of lauric fatty acid which is almost 50 Percent of the total
> fatty acids in coconut fat.? This is why the latter spoilage pathway
> is more faster (10X faster if compared to other fats)in coconut fat
> than in other oils (except palm kernel oil which is similar in
> composition to the coconut and exhibit the same spoilage pattern).
> This latter kind of spoilage is common when you put water in the
> coconut fat and agitate it without any heat treatment.To tell you I
> did not have good success with using coconut fat as the base for white
> icing which I had good results with soybean and cottonseed based
> shortening in terms which are capable of producing a clean tasting
> icing that can carry a wide range of flavors.
>
>
> If you think that you really love the coconut fat, it implies that you
> had a fetish for such fat<g>.
>
> '
> If
> It just surprises me that you did not even experienced that.
>
> ,
> > Another thing that is has lower stability is that the fatty acid
> > called lauric acid is abundant in such fat.In presence of moisture(
> > you are adding water in it) and the microbes floating in the air will
> > come in contact with the mixture releasing enzymes( lipases) that will
> > split the fat (triglyceride) say( palm-oloein
> > laurein),stearo-laurein palmitin,etc) resulting in the breakdown to
> > its component palmitic acid, stearic aid, oleic acid and lauric
> > acid.The last component is responsiblef for the soapy taste.
> > This lauric acid will react with existing sodium ions ( mineral
> > content)present in the formulation to form a soap. Therefore in the
> > end you will end up with a soapy tasting food.

>
> >no. There are other constituents in coconut youre overlooking.

> Wait,,,, what are the constituents of coconut fat?
> Let us see the chemistry?.
> this is the breakdown of the fatty acid content of such fat:
> Caprylic acid 7.6%
> Capric acid 7.3%
> Lauric acid 48.2%
> Myristic acid 16.6%
> Palmitic acid 8
> Palmitoleic acid 1.0%
> Stearic acid 3.8%
> Oleic acid 5%
> Linoleic acid 2.5%
>
> The other fatty acids are found also in other fats such palm oil,
> soyabean, corn, sunflower, cottonseed.
> So may I ask what are the constituents of coconut fat that I missed?
> Unless you are using a proprietary composition that contains not only
> coconut but also other materials.
>
> >ry it, or dont, your choice.

> Naah, I;'m sorry ??I still love my job?.
> BTW, when you start making that ?loony icing' again I think its better
> if :
> you can start singing at the same time this coconut song<g>.
>
> ?The coconut nut is not a nut.
> IF you eat too much you get very fat'
> ????
> ?It is the coco fruit,
> from the coco tree ,
> of the coco palm family.'
>
> > NT?

> Are you from northern territory in Australia? I was trying to think of
> what is the reason for your fondness for coconut.<g>
> Northern territory being in the tropical part of australia has lots of
> coconut in it.
> Regards,
> Roy Basan



Every one of your points you raised here was already answered in my
post to which you responded - except one. The answer to that one is
caprylic acid. You sound to me like a true fool. You dont seem to have
followed any of it, or applied even basic sense. I wish you luck with
your bakery, though it doesnt sounds like your range is anything to
write home about.


Regards, NT
  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Eric Jorgensen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Icing secret ???

On 22 May 2004 16:16:54 -0700
(Roy Basan) wrote:

>
(Roy Basan) wrote in message
> . com>...
> >
(N. Thornton) wrote in message
> > . com>...=20
> > > lol! Its a lovely moist coating. Readers will note youve not
> > > actually tried it.=20

> > Therefore in the
> > end you will end up with a soapy tasting food.

>=20
>=20
> >This is all a beautiful illustration of the old saying '>theory and
> >practice are the same in theory, but different in >practice.'

> Although
> >what you say might sound believable, its far from what >happens. I've
> >been making coconut icing for years, and whether you >believe me or
> >not, its definitely a superior icing. Try some and >find out. If you
> >dont, youre guessing, or maybe reasoning, but not >reasoning right
> >somewhere.

>=20
> Coconut icing with no sugar? That is a misnomer=85
> An icing or even called a frosting usually contains sugar. It may or=20
> may not contain fat.Such as the boiled icing and related meringue
> based icing.
> But what you are talking about is a mixture of coconut oil and
> cardamom powder. That is considered a coating and not an icing.
> However if that how you call it then that's fine.
>=20
> I think I will never be able to try that as in my situation icings are
> sweet and if its bland and spicy the bakery business will go bankrupt.
> You do not make things just to prove a point; I produce things because
> somebody needs it and the business I am working with depends on it.
>=20
>=20
> >a guess

> It is not a conjecture,,,,What you are doing is considered (frankly
> speaking)sheer madness =85..
> Mixing fat and spice and call that an icing? What a silly idea that
> no respectable bakery employer will even think about. being sold in
> his bakery.
>=20
> If I have to make your style use that to coat my cakes and present
> that to the customer, ....
> Gosh! Somebody will bring a straitjacket to tie me up and bring me to
> the insane asylum!
> That will be the end to my illustrious and lucrative career.
>=20
> > I have seen some sample of that so called fat block made with
> > coconut fat. It is called Copha.It is a firm block of fat appearing
> > like tallow but whiter.
> > I am using it as the fat component ( instead of costly butter)to
> > prepare commercial caramel and fudge sweets. From my experience in
> > using it, its not dispersible in water. It needs an emulsifier.
> >
> >no: what you say is true if the concentration is low, >but over a

> wide
> >range it disperses very well. I've never had a >dispersion problem,

> but
> >I know not to try using it the way you describe.

>=20
> Well again I do not have the opportunity to verify such claim. If I
> will experiment with that (and as requied by company regulation)
> record the complete details of the trial in our R&D information
> atabase; and somebody in the company reads it; I will be subjected to
> ridicule and my professional credibility will be tarnished.
> The company technical manager will say =91there is a wacko in this
> establishment.
> Get rid of him while he still partly sober!'



Hey, maybe you're just looking at this the wrong way.=20

Maybe you could market this as "Atkins-Friendly Low-Carb Sugar-Free
Glaze"

Yes, I know it's got essentially no carbohydrates, but as Pepsi and
Coke are noticing, a non-carbohydrate, nay, even non-caloric product is
not nearly as attractive to the modern dieter as a low-carbohydrate
product.

Best to just, fudge the truth a little, and see if you can find some
way to get someone on fatkins to buy a donut from you. If it tastes like
a scented candle, that's actually a recommendation for it, since dieters
have this bizarre sense of flagellation where they feel guilty if their
food isn't nasty and unappetizing.=20

  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Eric Jorgensen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Icing secret ???

On 22 May 2004 16:16:54 -0700
(Roy Basan) wrote:

>
(Roy Basan) wrote in message
> . com>...
> >
(N. Thornton) wrote in message
> > . com>...=20
> > > lol! Its a lovely moist coating. Readers will note youve not
> > > actually tried it.=20

> > Therefore in the
> > end you will end up with a soapy tasting food.

>=20
>=20
> >This is all a beautiful illustration of the old saying '>theory and
> >practice are the same in theory, but different in >practice.'

> Although
> >what you say might sound believable, its far from what >happens. I've
> >been making coconut icing for years, and whether you >believe me or
> >not, its definitely a superior icing. Try some and >find out. If you
> >dont, youre guessing, or maybe reasoning, but not >reasoning right
> >somewhere.

>=20
> Coconut icing with no sugar? That is a misnomer=85
> An icing or even called a frosting usually contains sugar. It may or=20
> may not contain fat.Such as the boiled icing and related meringue
> based icing.
> But what you are talking about is a mixture of coconut oil and
> cardamom powder. That is considered a coating and not an icing.
> However if that how you call it then that's fine.
>=20
> I think I will never be able to try that as in my situation icings are
> sweet and if its bland and spicy the bakery business will go bankrupt.
> You do not make things just to prove a point; I produce things because
> somebody needs it and the business I am working with depends on it.
>=20
>=20
> >a guess

> It is not a conjecture,,,,What you are doing is considered (frankly
> speaking)sheer madness =85..
> Mixing fat and spice and call that an icing? What a silly idea that
> no respectable bakery employer will even think about. being sold in
> his bakery.
>=20
> If I have to make your style use that to coat my cakes and present
> that to the customer, ....
> Gosh! Somebody will bring a straitjacket to tie me up and bring me to
> the insane asylum!
> That will be the end to my illustrious and lucrative career.
>=20
> > I have seen some sample of that so called fat block made with
> > coconut fat. It is called Copha.It is a firm block of fat appearing
> > like tallow but whiter.
> > I am using it as the fat component ( instead of costly butter)to
> > prepare commercial caramel and fudge sweets. From my experience in
> > using it, its not dispersible in water. It needs an emulsifier.
> >
> >no: what you say is true if the concentration is low, >but over a

> wide
> >range it disperses very well. I've never had a >dispersion problem,

> but
> >I know not to try using it the way you describe.

>=20
> Well again I do not have the opportunity to verify such claim. If I
> will experiment with that (and as requied by company regulation)
> record the complete details of the trial in our R&D information
> atabase; and somebody in the company reads it; I will be subjected to
> ridicule and my professional credibility will be tarnished.
> The company technical manager will say =91there is a wacko in this
> establishment.
> Get rid of him while he still partly sober!'



Hey, maybe you're just looking at this the wrong way.=20

Maybe you could market this as "Atkins-Friendly Low-Carb Sugar-Free
Glaze"

Yes, I know it's got essentially no carbohydrates, but as Pepsi and
Coke are noticing, a non-carbohydrate, nay, even non-caloric product is
not nearly as attractive to the modern dieter as a low-carbohydrate
product.

Best to just, fudge the truth a little, and see if you can find some
way to get someone on fatkins to buy a donut from you. If it tastes like
a scented candle, that's actually a recommendation for it, since dieters
have this bizarre sense of flagellation where they feel guilty if their
food isn't nasty and unappetizing.=20

  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default Icing secret ???


"Eric Jorgensen" > wrote in message
news:20040523062359.51ca5f4b@wafer...
On 22 May 2004 16:16:54 -0700
(Roy Basan) wrote:
Hey, maybe you're just looking at this the wrong way.

Maybe you could market this as "Atkins-Friendly Low-Carb Sugar-Free
Glaze"



....... or, as a sun tan lotion.




  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy Basan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Icing secret ???

Eric Jorgensen > wrote in message news:<20040523062359.51ca5f4b@wafer>...

>
> Hey, maybe you're just looking at this the wrong way.
>
> Maybe you could market this as "Atkins-Friendly Low-Carb Sugar-Free
> Glaze"
>
> Yes, I know it's got essentially no carbohydrates, but as Pepsi and
> Coke are noticing, a non-carbohydrate, nay, even non-caloric product is
> not nearly as attractive to the modern dieter as a low-carbohydrate
> product.
>
> Best to just, fudge the truth a little, and see if you can find some
> way to get someone on fatkins to buy a donut from you. If it tastes like
> a scented candle, that's actually a recommendation for it, since dieters
> have this bizarre sense of flagellation where they feel guilty if their
> food isn't nasty and unappetizing.


FATKINS, that's a nice one eric... they want to avoid carbohydrates
but they do not have the same zeal in avoiding the fat( that goes
usually with many protein foods) which carry more calorie than
carbohydrate per unnit weight.
Roy
Well an icing is supposed to be high cal.
  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy Basan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Icing secret ???

(N. Thornton) wrote in message . com>...
>
(Roy Basan) wrote in message . com>...
> >
(N. Thornton) wrote in message om>...
>
> > > Every one of your points you raised here was already answered in my
> > > post to which you responded - except one. The answer to that one is
> > > caprylic acid. You sound to me like a true fool. You dont seem to have
> > > followed any of it, or applied even basic sense. I wish you luck with
> > > your bakery, though it doesnt sounds like your range is anything to
> > > write home about.

>
> > Really? why don't you try working in the same situation as me and see
> > if you can just apply easily what you think is good for you is good
> > for the rest of the people?.

>
> The only and the obvious way forward is to make a bit at home and try
> it. Or accept you havent tried it.
>
>
> > Meanwhile....
> > I have talked about your idea to other technicaly trained bakery
> > people ,They were laughing out loudly, and one of them and asked
> > me .
> > Is this NT guy really sober? Is he real a person or another entity
> > from elswehere.
> > From what planet did he came from?
> > Roy

>
> Yeah, I'm not surprised. If they had sense they wouldnt have picked
> catering, its hardly a good career choice.
>
> Look at it this way Roy, if you dont try any new input you wont
> discover anything new to you. I've used it and its yum. Your missed
> chance to find out if its another string to your bow or not, doesnt
> bother me.
>
>
> Regards, NT


You really had loony tastes then.....

I do not know NT but in that discussion with the group over bottles
of beer.It was just a funny topic that brought so much laughter.
They tried to find out the possible outcome of such combination. It is
standard shortening based icing formulation to use sugar as the base
and the fat is just the secondary ingredient.
If you had to prepare the ordinary buttercream made with shortening
creaming it by itself without sugar does not led to a desirable
structure.
If you had to use a palette knife to spread that over a cake its just
akin spreading margarine to a piece of bread.
Or if you want it to be less light you just can take the shortening
from the tub and plasticize it a bit and spread and what will be the
outcome. It is slightly firmer but insipid and nothing but fat.
Or in your case, the coconut fat has a sharp melting point you just
have to melt carefully and pour it over the product being decorated.
That is enrobing like what you do with chocolate.One of the
apprentices I remember did even tried to use melted cocoa butter to
enrobed his cookies and the results was 'inedible' that many who
tasted the cookie puked . How much more with coconut fat which is
bland and even if laced with cardamom its still taste gross.
One of the mates asked. What does caprylic acid( he read your last
post)do to the functionality of coconut fat, nothing significant....it
may contribute to the very slight improvement of the coconut fat aroma
but that particular fat together with lauric acid is one cause of the
flavor deterioration and spoilage of coconut fat.

Now one of the guys argued; you do not have sugar then you are not
likely to smother the fat with heaps of powdered cardamom spice and
use the considerable of it that it will appear as speckled icing. It
will be grossly overpowering.
A fundammental role of such cake coating is that it will complement
the cake being decorated not surpass the taste of the cake.
Now you have a cake which as typical sweet taste. Then you coat that
with a bland icing ( no sugar).
He quipped further unless that customer is another a loony, or
another alien, maybe it would work.
That is why he remarked if the creator of this 'loony icing' is not
human being<g> but some form an alien (and due to superior
intelligence was able to look like a man)who had been in this earth
for some time,but had wacky taste, who really love the pungent flavor
of cardamom which is not avaialable in their planet<g>. He further
said , do you mind if you ask him from what solar system is your
planet in this universe.
He just love UFO stories ,and if not for his wife who opposed, he
could have named his bakery ' The Hidden Planet Cake Shop'
But unfortunately even if he likes reading about aliens he
vehemently detest their tastes (just taking you as an example).

It really does not make sense...how its figured out.
In addition one of my mates countered. If that guy NT is really
serious about it how can he possibly eat a cake coated with fat and
cardamom spice.
He reasoned what is in cardamom spice that can mimic sugar, nothing.
It is just a fibrous matter a conglomerate of protein, starches
,fiber and slight fat and essential oil.
It is a fact in the bakery products that even cardamom addition in the
bakery products does not bode well if the customer is not used to it
in a certain bakery item.
It is added in measured amounts only for seleced products such as
danish pastry,some spice cakes and certain other sweet goods,
gingerbread, and cookies.
No matter how we look at it ,and try to find a reality to your no
sugar coconut spice icing, we cannot think of something sensible
(but the sheer silliness) of the idea.

Maybe it is just idea or your way of spreading fat into your
sandwiches, but instead of plain or herbed butter or margarine.
YOu prefer that combination?
A extremely personal preferrence then.
Sorry NT, nothing personal...



Roy
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
N. Thornton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Icing secret ???

(Roy Basan) wrote in message . com>...
>
(N. Thornton) wrote in message . com>...
> >
(Roy Basan) wrote in message . com>...
> > >
(N. Thornton) wrote in message om>...

>
> > > > Every one of your points you raised here was already answered in my
> > > > post to which you responded - except one. The answer to that one is
> > > > caprylic acid. You sound to me like a true fool. You dont seem to have
> > > > followed any of it, or applied even basic sense. I wish you luck with
> > > > your bakery, though it doesnt sounds like your range is anything to
> > > > write home about.

>
> > > Really? why don't you try working in the same situation as me and see
> > > if you can just apply easily what you think is good for you is good
> > > for the rest of the people?.

> >
> > The only and the obvious way forward is to make a bit at home and try
> > it. Or accept you havent tried it.
> >
> >
> > > Meanwhile....
> > > I have talked about your idea to other technicaly trained bakery
> > > people ,They were laughing out loudly, and one of them and asked
> > > me .
> > > Is this NT guy really sober? Is he real a person or another entity
> > > from elswehere.
> > > From what planet did he came from?
> > > Roy

> >
> > Yeah, I'm not surprised. If they had sense they wouldnt have picked
> > catering, its hardly a good career choice.
> >
> > Look at it this way Roy, if you dont try any new input you wont
> > discover anything new to you. I've used it and its yum. Your missed
> > chance to find out if its another string to your bow or not, doesnt
> > bother me.
> >
> >
> > Regards, NT

>
> You really had loony tastes then.....
>
> I do not know NT but in that discussion with the group over bottles
> of beer.It was just a funny topic that brought so much laughter.
> They tried to find out the possible outcome of such combination. It is
> standard shortening based icing formulation to use sugar as the base
> and the fat is just the secondary ingredient.
> If you had to prepare the ordinary buttercream made with shortening
> creaming it by itself without sugar does not led to a desirable
> structure.
> If you had to use a palette knife to spread that over a cake its just
> akin spreading margarine to a piece of bread.
> Or if you want it to be less light you just can take the shortening
> from the tub and plasticize it a bit and spread and what will be the
> outcome. It is slightly firmer but insipid and nothing but fat.
> Or in your case, the coconut fat has a sharp melting point you just
> have to melt carefully and pour it over the product being decorated.
> That is enrobing like what you do with chocolate.One of the
> apprentices I remember did even tried to use melted cocoa butter to
> enrobed his cookies and the results was 'inedible' that many who
> tasted the cookie puked . How much more with coconut fat which is
> bland and even if laced with cardamom its still taste gross.
> One of the mates asked. What does caprylic acid( he read your last
> post)do to the functionality of coconut fat, nothing significant....it
> may contribute to the very slight improvement of the coconut fat aroma
> but that particular fat together with lauric acid is one cause of the
> flavor deterioration and spoilage of coconut fat.
>
> Now one of the guys argued; you do not have sugar then you are not
> likely to smother the fat with heaps of powdered cardamom spice and
> use the considerable of it that it will appear as speckled icing. It
> will be grossly overpowering.
> A fundammental role of such cake coating is that it will complement
> the cake being decorated not surpass the taste of the cake.
> Now you have a cake which as typical sweet taste. Then you coat that
> with a bland icing ( no sugar).
> He quipped further unless that customer is another a loony, or
> another alien, maybe it would work.
> That is why he remarked if the creator of this 'loony icing' is not
> human being<g> but some form an alien (and due to superior
> intelligence was able to look like a man)who had been in this earth
> for some time,but had wacky taste, who really love the pungent flavor
> of cardamom which is not avaialable in their planet<g>. He further
> said , do you mind if you ask him from what solar system is your
> planet in this universe.
> He just love UFO stories ,and if not for his wife who opposed, he
> could have named his bakery ' The Hidden Planet Cake Shop'
> But unfortunately even if he likes reading about aliens he
> vehemently detest their tastes (just taking you as an example).
>
> It really does not make sense...how its figured out.
> In addition one of my mates countered. If that guy NT is really
> serious about it how can he possibly eat a cake coated with fat and
> cardamom spice.
> He reasoned what is in cardamom spice that can mimic sugar, nothing.
> It is just a fibrous matter a conglomerate of protein, starches
> ,fiber and slight fat and essential oil.
> It is a fact in the bakery products that even cardamom addition in the
> bakery products does not bode well if the customer is not used to it
> in a certain bakery item.
> It is added in measured amounts only for seleced products such as
> danish pastry,some spice cakes and certain other sweet goods,
> gingerbread, and cookies.
> No matter how we look at it ,and try to find a reality to your no
> sugar coconut spice icing, we cannot think of something sensible
> (but the sheer silliness) of the idea.
>
> Maybe it is just idea or your way of spreading fat into your
> sandwiches, but instead of plain or herbed butter or margarine.
> YOu prefer that combination?
> A extremely personal preferrence then.
> Sorry NT, nothing personal...
>
>
>
> Roy



Roy this is getting boring. Your description is quite unrealistic. If
you differ, no prob.


Regards, NT
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