Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 01:49 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Automatic bread making

Hi,
I recently bought a Kenmore KTR2300 automatic bread maker and I have a
few concerns. My reason for buying it was to hopefully make bread
consistantly, that was cheaper than 'store bought' bread but more
importantly, healthier. I don't want hydrogenated oils, salt, sugar,
eggs or any other ingredients that are not necessary fur making bread,
which I can then use for sandwiches. I want to use 100% whole wheat
flower.

The recipe book that cam with the unit has a whole wheat recipe which I
have tried. But, I have calculated that a single slice of sandwich size
bread, using this recipe, will be about double the calories of the
normal 90-100 calories per slice 'store bought' bread that I normally
buy. This doesn't seem right to me.

Can you advise me of a simple recipe for making 100 percent whole wheat
bread with as little extra ingredients as possible?

Also, the manual that came with the Kenmore bread maker did not mention
anything about what to expect when the machine is kneading the dough.
My machine seems to labor very hard at it, as though the dough is way
to stiff. Is this normal, or do I have too little liquid in the mix?

Thanks in advance for any help you may have for this somewhat confused,
and not terribly "handy in the kitchen" bachelor ;-)


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Old 11-02-2005, 02:38 AM
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,
I recently bought a Kenmore KTR2300 automatic bread maker and I have a
few concerns. My reason for buying it was to hopefully make bread
consistantly, that was cheaper than 'store bought' bread but more
importantly, healthier. I don't want hydrogenated oils, salt, sugar,
eggs or any other ingredients that are not necessary fur making bread,
which I can then use for sandwiches. I want to use 100% whole wheat
flower.

The recipe book that cam with the unit has a whole wheat recipe which I
have tried. But, I have calculated that a single slice of sandwich size
bread, using this recipe, will be about double the calories of the
normal 90-100 calories per slice 'store bought' bread that I normally
buy. This doesn't seem right to me.

Can you advise me of a simple recipe for making 100 percent whole wheat
bread with as little extra ingredients as possible?

Also, the manual that came with the Kenmore bread maker did not mention
anything about what to expect when the machine is kneading the dough.
My machine seems to labor very hard at it, as though the dough is way
to stiff. Is this normal, or do I have too little liquid in the mix?

Thanks in advance for any help you may have for this somewhat confused,
and not terribly "handy in the kitchen" bachelor ;-)


The bread that you get at the supermarket is quite unlike to be made from
100% whole wheat flour. A loaf made with all whole wheat is usually like a
brick. I can't image that you could get good results in a bread machine.
It isn't surprising that the machine labors considering how stiff dough made
with 100% whole wheat is. I would recommend that you try posting over at
alt.bread.recipes. That group seems to be focused on bread machine recipes.
You also might do a search of that group's archives here looking whole wheat
recipes:
http://groups-beta.google.com/advanced_search

My advice would be to use at least 50% unbleached AP flour, preferable high
gluten bread flour instead of 100% whole wheat flour. I would also consider
adding a little canola or olive oil.


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Old 11-02-2005, 02:53 AM
RsH
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A whole wheat loaf without sugar or other food for the yeast will be a
dense loaf and, unless sliced thin will indeed be more calories,
simply because it has far less gas or air bubble holes in it.

Search for and download other bread machine manuals, such as the Black
and Decker manuals that are available on the web and look at their
recipes as well - there are lots of Whole Wheat recipes available for
both US and Canadian wheats [and they are NOT the same].

It sounds like you are trying to make a whole wheat bread without any
white flour, any sugar, any salt, or any fat. The general minimum you
need for a whole wheat bread likely will be:

A liquid. Milk, Water, Buttermilk, or water with dry milk or dry
buttermilk all work.

Some amount of Whole Wheat BREAD flour, or a mixture of Whole Wheat
non-bread flour and a white BREAD flour, or a mixture of Whole Wheat
non-bread flour AND VWG or 80% Gluten Wheat [the latter seems to be
available in Canada only].

Some form of sweetener that the yeast can feast on. Honey, Molasses,
Corn Syrup, Sugar or other similar foods

Some salt. Generally the salt will be between .5 and .1 times the
amount of sugar

Some fat. It can be Safflower Oil, Olive Oil, Butter, Margarine, but
some fat is needed.

Yeast - the amount depends on the type of yeast.

Eggs are not needed, but some egg white from a carton of egg white
will not hurt and can replace some of the other liquid used. It adds
protein and some structure to the bread and does NOT add the stuff in
the yolk that you likely view as unhealthy.

You need to develop a feel for what the dough should feel like.

It does sound as if you do NOT have enough liquid in the recipe. Whole
Wheat flour usually needs MORE liquid than white flour because it
absorbs more liquid per gram of flour.

Whole Wheat never rises as much as white flour, so you will end up
with a more dense loaf.

If you wait until it cools fully you should be able to slice it in
..1666 or .2 inch thick slices and therefore cut down on the calories
per slice, but you will always find it is more dense than what you
buy, so it WILL be heavier if cut to the same thickness as the stuff
you buy. Heavier slices are more calories for obvious reasons.

Follow a recipe in the book exactly or download one where everything
is measured only by WEIGHT and make that one or two times, without
playing the games of eliminating ingredients to make it healthier. Get
to know what the machine will sound like if you are following THEIR
instructions and you will then know if it sounds like it is struggling
with the dough you are now playing with. Only when you know what the
machine should sound like and what a loaf should look like should you
being experimenting with your own cut down version of a recipe.

FWIW

RsH
----------------
On 10 Feb 2005 17:49:45 -0800, wrote:

I recently bought a Kenmore KTR2300 automatic bread maker and I have a
few concerns. My reason for buying it was to hopefully make bread
consistantly, that was cheaper than 'store bought' bread but more
importantly, healthier. I don't want hydrogenated oils, salt, sugar,
eggs or any other ingredients that are not necessary fur making bread,
which I can then use for sandwiches. I want to use 100% whole wheat
flower.

The recipe book that cam with the unit has a whole wheat recipe which I
have tried. But, I have calculated that a single slice of sandwich size
bread, using this recipe, will be about double the calories of the
normal 90-100 calories per slice 'store bought' bread that I normally
buy. This doesn't seem right to me.

Can you advise me of a simple recipe for making 100 percent whole wheat
bread with as little extra ingredients as possible?

Also, the manual that came with the Kenmore bread maker did not mention
anything about what to expect when the machine is kneading the dough.
My machine seems to labor very hard at it, as though the dough is way
to stiff. Is this normal, or do I have too little liquid in the mix?

Thanks in advance for any help you may have for this somewhat confused,
and not terribly "handy in the kitchen" bachelor ;-)



================================================== =====

Copyright retained. My opinions - no one else's...
If this is illegal where you are, do not read it!
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 04:19 AM
[email protected]
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I thank both of you very much for your replies. I do have a few
questions though...

RsH wrote:


A liquid. Milk, Water, Buttermilk, or water with dry milk or dry
buttermilk all work.


What is the purpose of Milk? Is it to help the bread rise or is it just
for flavor?


Some salt. Generally the salt will be between .5 and .1 times the
amount of sugar


What is the purpose of salt? Is it for texture or just flavor?


Some fat. It can be Safflower Oil, Olive Oil, Butter, Margarine, but
some fat is needed.


What is the purpose of fat? Is it for texture or flavor or something
else I am unaware of?

You also mentioned that the bread I buy at the store is likely not 100
percent whole wheat. It says "100 percent Stone Ground Whole Wheat".
Does this mean 100 percent whole wheat or just that it is 100 percent
stone ground? The wording used could be taken either way.

Again, thanks!

  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 05:36 AM
RsH
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 10 Feb 2005 20:19:25 -0800, wrote:

I thank both of you very much for your replies. I do have a few
questions though...

RsH wrote:


A liquid. Milk, Water, Buttermilk, or water with dry milk or dry
buttermilk all work.


What is the purpose of Milk? Is it to help the bread rise or is it just
for flavor?


It affects the structure of the bread, but it is NOT needed. You could
use water instead, or juice or beer or another liquid. Milk simply
makes, usually, for a different and smoother sort of crumb in the
finished bread.

Some salt. Generally the salt will be between .5 and .1 times the
amount of sugar


What is the purpose of salt? Is it for texture or just flavor?


Neither, it is needed to help control the action of the yeast. It is
NOT for flavour or texture. I make a Challah with 50 grams of sugar
and only 8 grams of salt, and other breads with as little as 4 to 5
grams of salt. It varies, but I always have some salt in the mix.

Some fat. It can be Safflower Oil, Olive Oil, Butter, Margarine, but
some fat is needed.


What is the purpose of fat? Is it for texture or flavor or something
else I am unaware of?


It helps preserve the bread a bit, helps hold the moisture in the
flour, and makes the baked bread last longer and not dry out in only a
few hours. It is a variable and you can use more or less depending on
the particular bread's formula.

You also mentioned that the bread I buy at the store is likely not 100
percent whole wheat. It says "100 percent Stone Ground Whole Wheat".
Does this mean 100 percent whole wheat or just that it is 100 percent
stone ground? The wording used could be taken either way.


It is likely 100% whole wheat, but also look at all of the other
ingredients that are in the bread and keep in mind that they might
still be playing around with the type of whole wheat used in the grind
to give them results you cannot get with what you can buy. You are
trying to do without the other components that the baker has added to
get the light loaf that you buy in the store. That lightness comes not
from the flour alone but from all of the ingredients combined, plus
the technique used. Note that all of the work done in a bakery is by
weight and NOT by volume. A bakery that purchases Whole Wheat can
still have less bran or require a harder wheat than the manufacturer
of your whole wheat uses or produces, even if you buy the same brand.
This is because the retail and baker flours can be different even if
they seem to have the same general description.

Again, thanks!


Another trick that I did not mention, that likely will help you is to
turn the machine OFF after the kneading finishes, if making whole
wheat, and then turning it on again to make start from the beginning.
Kneading whole wheat flour the extra time often helps make for a
lighter bread and higher rise.

Try the following recipe...

386 grams water, warm
16 grams powdered skim milk powder
28 grams softened butter [or safflower oil, or margarine, etc.]
20 grams molasses
42 grams honey
8 grams salt
450 grams whole wheat BREAD flour
10 grams 70+% gluten wheat or Vital Wheat Gluten
8 grams bread machine yeast

I suggest putting the ingredients into the machine in the listed
order, and then letting the mix sit for a while before you even turn
on the machine, so that most of the flour absorbs water before you
even start the machine kneading. Put in the yeast just as you start
that first knead.

Using the regular bread cycle, turn on the machine, and let it finish
the first knead. Turn off or unplug the machine and immediately plug
it in and/or start it again for a second go round. Note that the
liquids weigh almost as much as the flour when you add them all
together. The bran in the flour absorbs a lot of the liquid and the
gluten also needs a lot of the liquid.

Let us all know how this recipe compares to what you were trying, and
also let us know how it turns out.

Once you have used this recipe, which comes from Electric Bread,
published in 1993, if it comes out sort of the way you expected or
like, you can start playing around with the formula, seeing what
happens if you reduce or eliminate the salt, or the fat, or the
sugars, etc. Remove only one at a time to see the specific impact and
you will get a better idea of what each ingredient contributes to the
end result. You may like to use brown sugar instead of molasses or
honey, for example. Just use the same weight of the substitute until
you have a better feel for the way they interact. You can replace the
powdered skim milk powder with the same weight of dry buttermilk and
it will have little impact on the crumb but a small impact on the
taste. You may like that better, and remember that buttermilk is also
almost fat free. You may also try regular whole wheat flour and, if
so, you may find that you need to add another 5-10 grams of VWG or
Gluten Wheat to get the same amount of rise.

Your experience will vary. One other thing no one likely asked is what
altitude you live at. If you are in Salt Lake City you are at about
4400 feet above sea level and in Denver you are at about 5200 feet up,
and you need to make adjustments. If you live in Mexico City the
adjustments are even greater, because at over 7500 feet up you are
that much higher in elevation above sea level. It makes a difference!
Look up high altitude baking if you are anywhere over about 1500 feet
above sea level.

Also, if you live in a very dry area, such as Phoenix, you also need
to watch the liquids and likely need to always add more to any
formula. If you live in Gander, Newfoundland, it is the other way
around, and you likely need to always cut down a little on the amount
of liquids, because your flour has already absorbed quite a bit of
moisture simply from the perpetually damp atmosphere. Again, without
knowing where you are, I cannot be more exact, but baking is NOT a
precise science, and some of the reasons are just these... elevation
and humidity make a difference!

FWIW

RsH

================================================== =====

Copyright retained. My opinions - no one else's...
If this is illegal where you are, do not read it!


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 05:03 PM
[email protected]
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks again RsH. Your information is much appreciated. In fact, I do
live at 5400 feet so I will search for info on high altitude baking.
When it comes to cooking I had thought that altitude only affected
boiling water temperatures. I have a lot to learn I guess. Thanks!
Greg

  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 07:17 PM
RsH
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It affects a lot of things :-)

1. Reduce yeast 1 gram at a time until you find the correct amount to
use. You cannot use the same amount someone at sea level uses. Lower
atmospheric pressure means the bread rises higher as there is less
resistance when gas is produced. If it rises too high, it collapses as
you bake it!

2. Reduce liquid SLIGHTLY until you find the correct amount to use.
Whatever that percentage reduction is becomes your starting point for
future recipes as a percentage reduction re liquids.

3. Find flour with the finest grind you can. Courser flour does not
work as well at altitude.

There are other tricks re higher altitude as well...

RsH
-------------------------------------------------------

On 11 Feb 2005 09:03:00 -0800, wrote:

Thanks again RsH. Your information is much appreciated. In fact, I do
live at 5400 feet so I will search for info on high altitude baking.
When it comes to cooking I had thought that altitude only affected
boiling water temperatures. I have a lot to learn I guess. Thanks!
Greg


================================================== =====

Copyright retained. My opinions - no one else's...
If this is illegal where you are, do not read it!
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 07:37 PM
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Priscilla H. Ballou" wrote in message
...
Vox Humana wrote:

The bread that you get at the supermarket is quite unlike to be made

from
100% whole wheat flour. A loaf made with all whole wheat is usually

like a
brick. I can't image that you could get good results in a bread

machine.
It isn't surprising that the machine labors considering how stiff dough

made
with 100% whole wheat is. I would recommend that you try posting over

at
alt.bread.recipes. That group seems to be focused on bread machine

recipes.
You also might do a search of that group's archives here looking whole

wheat
recipes:
http://groups-beta.google.com/advanced_search

My advice would be to use at least 50% unbleached AP flour, preferable

high
gluten bread flour instead of 100% whole wheat flour. I would also

consider
adding a little canola or olive oil.


I make WW bread in my bread machine (well, I make the dough but bake the
loaves normally). I substitute in a very generous spoon of vital wheat
gluten into the measuring cup when measuring in the WW flour.

Here are the ingredients (as best I can remember) for the WW plus extras
recipe I'm using these days:

1 cup water
1 egg
1/2 cup vital wheat gluten
2 cups WW flour
1/2 cup mixed multi-grain add-ins (including seeds)
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 Tablespoons oil
2 Tablespoons honey
2 teaspoons yeast

I think that's it. Makes a nice big loaf in a pan or round on a baking
stone. Made little round rolls on the stone once, too.


I'm sure the gluten makes the difference. Without it you would have a
brick.


  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 07:40 PM
Priscilla H. Ballou
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Vox Humana wrote:

The bread that you get at the supermarket is quite unlike to be made from
100% whole wheat flour. A loaf made with all whole wheat is usually like a
brick. I can't image that you could get good results in a bread machine.
It isn't surprising that the machine labors considering how stiff dough made
with 100% whole wheat is. I would recommend that you try posting over at
alt.bread.recipes. That group seems to be focused on bread machine recipes.
You also might do a search of that group's archives here looking whole wheat
recipes:
http://groups-beta.google.com/advanced_search

My advice would be to use at least 50% unbleached AP flour, preferable high
gluten bread flour instead of 100% whole wheat flour. I would also consider
adding a little canola or olive oil.


I make WW bread in my bread machine (well, I make the dough but bake the
loaves normally). I substitute in a very generous spoon of vital wheat
gluten into the measuring cup when measuring in the WW flour.

Here are the ingredients (as best I can remember) for the WW plus extras
recipe I'm using these days:

1 cup water
1 egg
1/2 cup vital wheat gluten
2 cups WW flour
1/2 cup mixed multi-grain add-ins (including seeds)
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 Tablespoons oil
2 Tablespoons honey
2 teaspoons yeast

I think that's it. Makes a nice big loaf in a pan or round on a baking
stone. Made little round rolls on the stone once, too.

Priscilla
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 08:14 PM
Priscilla H. Ballou
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Vox Humana wrote:

"Priscilla H. Ballou" wrote in message
...
Vox Humana wrote:

The bread that you get at the supermarket is quite unlike to be made

from
100% whole wheat flour. A loaf made with all whole wheat is usually

like a
brick. I can't image that you could get good results in a bread

machine.
It isn't surprising that the machine labors considering how stiff dough

made
with 100% whole wheat is. I would recommend that you try posting over

at
alt.bread.recipes. That group seems to be focused on bread machine

recipes.
You also might do a search of that group's archives here looking whole

wheat
recipes:
http://groups-beta.google.com/advanced_search

My advice would be to use at least 50% unbleached AP flour, preferable

high
gluten bread flour instead of 100% whole wheat flour. I would also

consider
adding a little canola or olive oil.


I make WW bread in my bread machine (well, I make the dough but bake the
loaves normally). I substitute in a very generous spoon of vital wheat
gluten into the measuring cup when measuring in the WW flour.

Here are the ingredients (as best I can remember) for the WW plus extras
recipe I'm using these days:

1 cup water
1 egg
1/2 cup vital wheat gluten
2 cups WW flour
1/2 cup mixed multi-grain add-ins (including seeds)
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 Tablespoons oil
2 Tablespoons honey
2 teaspoons yeast

I think that's it. Makes a nice big loaf in a pan or round on a baking
stone. Made little round rolls on the stone once, too.


I'm sure the gluten makes the difference. Without it you would have a
brick.


Well, yeah. That's why I use it.

Priscilla


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-02-2005, 03:14 PM
Top Spin
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:40:02 -0500, "Priscilla H. Ballou"
wrote:

I make WW bread in my bread machine (well, I make the dough but bake the
loaves normally). I substitute in a very generous spoon of vital wheat
gluten into the measuring cup when measuring in the WW flour.

Here are the ingredients (as best I can remember) for the WW plus extras
recipe I'm using these days:

1 cup water
1 egg
1/2 cup vital wheat gluten
2 cups WW flour
1/2 cup mixed multi-grain add-ins (including seeds)
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 Tablespoons oil
2 Tablespoons honey
2 teaspoons yeast

I think that's it. Makes a nice big loaf in a pan or round on a baking
stone. Made little round rolls on the stone once, too.

Priscilla


Is that flour whole wheat BREAD flour or just whole wheat flour?

Is the yeast active dry yeast?

--
Hitachi HB-A101 bread machine, 1 pound
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(01/10/05)
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 14-02-2005, 06:15 PM
Priscilla H. Ballou
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Top Spin wrote:

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:40:02 -0500, "Priscilla H. Ballou"
wrote:

I make WW bread in my bread machine (well, I make the dough but bake the
loaves normally). I substitute in a very generous spoon of vital wheat
gluten into the measuring cup when measuring in the WW flour.

Here are the ingredients (as best I can remember) for the WW plus extras
recipe I'm using these days:

1 cup water
1 egg
1/2 cup vital wheat gluten
2 cups WW flour
1/2 cup mixed multi-grain add-ins (including seeds)
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 Tablespoons oil
2 Tablespoons honey
2 teaspoons yeast

I think that's it. Makes a nice big loaf in a pan or round on a baking
stone. Made little round rolls on the stone once, too.

Priscilla


Is that flour whole wheat BREAD flour or just whole wheat flour?


WW flour. If it were bread flour I'd have indicated so.

Is the yeast active dry yeast?


Red Star dry yeast. Not sure what you mean by "active." It's alive.

Priscilla
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Old 14-02-2005, 10:51 PM
FMW
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,
I recently bought a Kenmore KTR2300 automatic bread maker and I have a
few concerns. My reason for buying it was to hopefully make bread
consistantly, that was cheaper than 'store bought' bread but more
importantly, healthier. I don't want hydrogenated oils, salt, sugar,
eggs or any other ingredients that are not necessary fur making bread,
which I can then use for sandwiches. I want to use 100% whole wheat
flower.

The recipe book that cam with the unit has a whole wheat recipe which I
have tried. But, I have calculated that a single slice of sandwich size
bread, using this recipe, will be about double the calories of the
normal 90-100 calories per slice 'store bought' bread that I normally
buy. This doesn't seem right to me.

Can you advise me of a simple recipe for making 100 percent whole wheat
bread with as little extra ingredients as possible?

Also, the manual that came with the Kenmore bread maker did not mention
anything about what to expect when the machine is kneading the dough.
My machine seems to labor very hard at it, as though the dough is way
to stiff. Is this normal, or do I have too little liquid in the mix?

Thanks in advance for any help you may have for this somewhat confused,
and not terribly "handy in the kitchen" bachelor ;-)


Sorry, I don't know anything about bread machines but I do make 100% whole
wheat bread from time to time with some success. It is usually on the dense
side but this formula is useable. You can use the ratios to get the amount
you need for your machine. This makes two normal pan loaves in the oven.

1 lb. 10 oz. whole wheat flour
1/2 oz. salt
1 oz. sugar
1 oz. dry milk
1 oz. oil or shortening
3/4 oz. fresh yeast (you might try 1 to 1 1/2 packets of dry yeast. I never
use it personally.)
1 lb. water

The hydration ratio is 61% which is a medium soft dough. I have no problem
mixing it in the mixer. Whole wheat four doesn't have much gluten so good
results require a long mix - 15 to 20 minutes - and a long fermentation and
proofing. That's probably why you can't get get good results in a machine
where these variables aren't adjustable. You might be able to get around
the fermentation issue by using more yeast than normal. If the machine
allows you to adjust the mixing time then crank that up to the max.

It will probably be easier for you to substitute high gluten white flour for
1/2 the wheat flour. It won't add any fat really but the resulting bread
will be chewier and less dense. Good luck.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com


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Old 19-02-2005, 01:15 PM
Tregaque
 
Posts: n/a
Default


On UK radio recently they had the results of a nationwide survey into
the top ten most "unused" gadgets purchased.The kind of things that
seem a good idea in the shop but then sit on a shelf in your cupboard
for a couple of years before being given away to a duistant aunt.

I ought to point out that Bread making machines were in the top 5!
BTW No1 was the footspa.

Tregaque


--
Tregaque

Rare vintage Gardening, Cooking and Craft Books from Wales @

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Merchfach-B...d-Collectables
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Old 19-02-2005, 01:15 PM
Tregaque
 
Posts: n/a
Default


On UK radio recently they had the results of a nationwide survey into
the top ten most "unused" gadgets purchased.The kind of things that
seem a good idea in the shop but then sit on a shelf in your cupboard
for a couple of years before being given away to a duistant aunt.

I ought to point out that Bread making machines were in the top 5!
BTW No1 was the footspa.

Tregaque


--
Tregaque

Rare vintage Gardening, Cooking and Craft Books from Wales @

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Merchfach-B...d-Collectables
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tregaque's Profile: http://www.cookingboard.com/member.p...nfo&userid=197
View this thread: http://www.cookingboard.com/showthre...threadid=32956


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