Baking (rec.food.baking) For bakers, would-be bakers, and fans and consumers of breads, pastries, cakes, pies, cookies, crackers, bagels, and other items commonly found in a bakery. Includes all methods of preparation, both conventional and not.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Default double rising (or not) bread

I'm not sure why I'm double rising my bread before baking.
I probably followed somebody's instruction somewhere.

I've seen bread produced in a large scale bakery, with a
single rise : the bread is mixed, kneaded mechanically,
and then fed through a machine which puts the bread into
various sizes (eg. bap, sandwich etc). After the bread
comes off the production line, it is put on trays in a
rack system, which is then wheeled into a very humid closed
area for proofing. As far as I can tell, it's a single rise.

So, can some one offer some commentary on the reasons for
single or double rising ?

Single rise == swifter production time, therefore less cost?
Longer rise ... better quality ? If so, why ?

Perplexed.

Thanks
d


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Kenneth > wrote:

>>Single rise == swifter production time, therefore less cost?
>>Longer rise ... better quality ? If so, why ?

>

[..]
> But, your comment above confuses two (unrelated) issues:
>
> There is no inherent reason that a two rise process must
> take longer. The speed of the rise (whether one or two) can
> be controlled with temperature.


At the moment, I am rising at room temperature near the oven.
I can't raise the temperature any higher without actually
putting the dough in the oven, so in effect, I can't speed
up the process of rising. Therefore double rising makes my
breadmaking longer than a single rise, since after knocking
back the dough, I'm waiting for the second rise.

If I've misunderstood you, then please hammer me over the head
with a baking tin and explain what I'm missing :-)

> I am always intrigued by the many posts from people who are
> delighted to discover that they can make bread more quickly
> by proofing it "in the oven with the light on." Few seem to
> be posting with delight when they discover that they can let
> their bread rise more slowly in the basement producing far
> better tastes and textures...


I think you are absolutely right.

The last bread I baked was around 90% wholemeal, 5% torrefied
wheat, 5% malted wheat, and it was left for 1st rise overnight in
an unelectrified fridge outdoors (something I am using as
a makeshift cold room).

Best wholemeal bread I've made.

cheers
d
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Janet Bostwick
 
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> wrote in message
...
> I'm not sure why I'm double rising my bread before baking.
> I probably followed somebody's instruction somewhere.
>
> I've seen bread produced in a large scale bakery, with a
> single rise : snip
> Perplexed.
>
> Thanks
> d
>

Large-scale, commercially-produced bread is especially formulated to work
with a single rise and go from the flour bin to the wrapper in under an
hour. You can produce bread at home with a single rise if you wish.
However, the crumb texture will be coarser(not just more open-celled) and
the bread will taste more strongly of yeast and yeast by-products. It's up
to you. If time is an issue, investigate the process of retarding the
formed loaves in the refrigerator. You can make your dough, rise in the
bowl, shape the loaves and put them in the refrigerator until the next day
to bake off. This method gives improved flavor over even the straight
2-rise and bake method. If you want really fast bread, you can make batter
or sometimes called casserole breads. They are yeast bread that can be
ready in a little over an hour. Slower production of the finished loaf
allows the baker to achieve a loaf that tastes more of the grain plus subtle
other baking flavors.
Janet


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Joan
 
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On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 21:11:59 -0500, UnConundrrum
> wrote:
>This may vary with the type of bread, and what you do to the dough
>between each rise. I made baguettes today, and folded the dough after
>an hour. This "fold" helped to strengthen the dough. I then let it
>raise for another hour, and pre-shaped it, letting it rest a half hour,
>before final shaping. Then it proofed for yet another hour... Giving
>it all that time for flavor to develop made a wonderful baguette

Hi everyone, I'm new to this group and forgive me if you have
been asked this before, but having just got a breadmaker I am
experimenting with all kinds of loaves and doughs! Seeing the word
baguette has prompted me to ask how to get the crispy crust, as
although the ones I made tasted fine - they lacked that crispy dry,
crust - the crust on mine was quite shiny. Just wondered how you made
yours.
Thanks
Joan
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Kenneth
 
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On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:20:48 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>the crumb texture will be coarser(not just more open-celled)


Hi Janet,

You lost me here...

What is the difference between "coarser" and "open-celled"
when describing the crumb?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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Janet Bostwick
 
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"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:20:48 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> > wrote:
>
>>the crumb texture will be coarser(not just more open-celled)

>
> Hi Janet,
>
> You lost me here...
>
> What is the difference between "coarser" and "open-celled"
> when describing the crumb?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Kenneth

I knew when I typed that, I was going to have to explain myself. This is my
observation and going by feel. If I were to say to you that one cotton
shirt felt more coarse than another, I think you would understand that. To
me, when I touch the crumb and run the pads of my fingers over the slice to
feel the crumb--the crumb lacks the 'silky' feel of a bread dough that has
been allowed lots of time to develop and be baked right. It seems to me,
that these breads that are in a hurry to get done in the total fermentation
and oven spring just don't put the cell structure together the same way and
stretch as smoothly. The dough is too exuberant with all that extra yeast
needed to produce a fast rising bread. Gosh, that all sounds like I need
the funny farm. . . and anything else I write to explain myself sounds
worse.
Janet




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Kenneth
 
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 08:07:55 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 18:20:48 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>the crumb texture will be coarser(not just more open-celled)

>>
>> Hi Janet,
>>
>> You lost me here...
>>
>> What is the difference between "coarser" and "open-celled"
>> when describing the crumb?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Kenneth

>I knew when I typed that, I was going to have to explain myself. This is my
>observation and going by feel. If I were to say to you that one cotton
>shirt felt more coarse than another, I think you would understand that. To
>me, when I touch the crumb and run the pads of my fingers over the slice to
>feel the crumb--the crumb lacks the 'silky' feel of a bread dough that has
>been allowed lots of time to develop and be baked right. It seems to me,
>that these breads that are in a hurry to get done in the total fermentation
>and oven spring just don't put the cell structure together the same way and
>stretch as smoothly. The dough is too exuberant with all that extra yeast
>needed to produce a fast rising bread. Gosh, that all sounds like I need
>the funny farm. . . and anything else I write to explain myself sounds
>worse.
>Janet
>


Hi Janet,

It might be a bit too early for the farm...

Your comments made sense to me (hmmmm, perhaps we are both
ready for the farm) but, as you probably know, in baking
lingo, "coarse" and "open-celled" mean the same thing.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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Janet Bostwick
 
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"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
snip
as you probably know, in baking
> lingo, "coarse" and "open-celled" mean the same thing.
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth

What is a good word to use instead? Rough? Can you visualize the texture
difference I mean? Or doesn't anyone else examine their bread results as
closely as I do?
Janet


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Top Spin
 
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 07:54:50 -0500, "Dee Randall"
<deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:

>
>"UnConundrrum" > wrote in message
...
>> lid wrote:
>>> At the moment, I am rising at room temperature near the oven.
>>> I can't raise the temperature any higher without actually
>>> putting the dough in the oven, so in effect, I can't speed
>>> up the process of rising. Therefore double rising makes my
>>> breadmaking longer than a single rise, since after knocking
>>> back the dough, I'm waiting for the second rise.
>>>

>> This may vary with the type of bread, and what you do to the dough between
>> each rise. I made baguettes today, and folded the dough after an hour.
>> This "fold" helped to strengthen the dough. I then let it raise for
>> another hour, and pre-shaped it, letting it rest a half hour, before final
>> shaping. Then it proofed for yet another hour... Giving it all that time
>> for flavor to develop made a wonderful baguette

>
>At what point do you have to stop 'folding,' 'raising,' 'resting,'
>'pre-shaping,' 'proofing,' before all of the yeast is gone for any kind of
>development at all.
>Thanks,
>Dee


Isn't it the food that the yeast "eats" that gets used up, not the
yeast itself? Maybe that's what you meant.

But it is an interesting question. How much rising is enough, not
enough, or too much? And how can I tell where it is?

--
Hitachi HB-A101 bread machine, 1 pound
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(01/10/05)
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Dee Randall
 
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"Top Spin" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 07:54:50 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:
>
>>
>>"UnConundrrum" > wrote in message
...
>>> lid wrote:
>>>> At the moment, I am rising at room temperature near the oven.
>>>> I can't raise the temperature any higher without actually
>>>> putting the dough in the oven, so in effect, I can't speed
>>>> up the process of rising. Therefore double rising makes my
>>>> breadmaking longer than a single rise, since after knocking
>>>> back the dough, I'm waiting for the second rise.
>>>>
>>> This may vary with the type of bread, and what you do to the dough
>>> between
>>> each rise. I made baguettes today, and folded the dough after an hour.
>>> This "fold" helped to strengthen the dough. I then let it raise for
>>> another hour, and pre-shaped it, letting it rest a half hour, before
>>> final
>>> shaping. Then it proofed for yet another hour... Giving it all that
>>> time
>>> for flavor to develop made a wonderful baguette

>>
>>At what point do you have to stop 'folding,' 'raising,' 'resting,'
>>'pre-shaping,' 'proofing,' before all of the yeast is gone for any kind of
>>development at all.
>>Thanks,
>>Dee

>
> Isn't it the food that the yeast "eats" that gets used up, not the
> yeast itself? Maybe that's what you meant.
>
> But it is an interesting question. How much rising is enough, not
> enough, or too much? And how can I tell where it is?
>

You are right, my question is as you put it -- when does the
food/flour/dough get used up by those yeasties (because there is only so
much flour you can add to a formed dough ball.)



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Eric Jorgensen
 
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:50:47 -0500
"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:


> > Isn't it the food that the yeast "eats" that gets used up, not the
> > yeast itself? Maybe that's what you meant.
> >
> > But it is an interesting question. How much rising is enough, not
> > enough, or too much? And how can I tell where it is?
> >

> You are right, my question is as you put it -- when does the
> food/flour/dough get used up by those yeasties (because there is only so
> much flour you can add to a formed dough ball.)



IT doesn't.

Eventually, the dough sours, and theoretically, the yeast may die.


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Dee Randall
 
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"Eric Jorgensen" > wrote in message
news:20050206133326.25986933@wafer...
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:50:47 -0500
> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:
>
>
>> > Isn't it the food that the yeast "eats" that gets used up, not the
>> > yeast itself? Maybe that's what you meant.
>> >
>> > But it is an interesting question. How much rising is enough, not
>> > enough, or too much? And how can I tell where it is?
>> >

>> You are right, my question is as you put it -- when does the
>> food/flour/dough get used up by those yeasties (because there is only so
>> much flour you can add to a formed dough ball.)

>
>
> IT doesn't.
>
> Eventually, the dough sours, and theoretically, the yeast may die.


Looking thru my notes: I don't want to quote verbatim what someone told me
about the timing of this yeast 'going sour and dying,' so I will paraphrase:

<beginning of paraphrase>That my bread had been overproofed because the
yeast activity had ceased and that after about 2 hours, my yeast is dead and
releasing foul gasses. <end of paraphrase>

So basically my interpretation of the paraphrase agrees with what you are
saying?
Thanks so much.
Dee



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Eric Jorgensen
 
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:02:28 -0500
"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:

>=20
> "Eric Jorgensen" > wrote in message=20
> news:20050206133326.25986933@wafer...
> > On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:50:47 -0500
> > "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> > Isn't it the food that the yeast "eats" that gets used up, not the
> >> > yeast itself? Maybe that's what you meant.
> >> >
> >> > But it is an interesting question. How much rising is enough, not
> >> > enough, or too much? And how can I tell where it is?
> >> >
> >> You are right, my question is as you put it -- when does the
> >> food/flour/dough get used up by those yeasties (because there is only

> >so > much flour you can add to a formed dough ball.)
> >
> >
> > IT doesn't.
> >
> > Eventually, the dough sours, and theoretically, the yeast may die.

>=20
> Looking thru my notes: I don't want to quote verbatim what someone told
> me about the timing of this yeast 'going sour and dying,' so I will
> paraphrase:
>=20
> <beginning of paraphrase>That my bread had been overproofed because the=20
> yeast activity had ceased and that after about 2 hours, my yeast is dead
> and releasing foul gasses. <end of paraphrase>
>=20
> So basically my interpretation of the paraphrase agrees with what you are
> saying?



It's not for lack of food.=20

Any microorganism, given enough food and the right environment, will
breed and consume until it renders it's environment unlivable.=20

Yeast produces alcohol and CO2 but like anything else it can't live in
concentration of it's own waste products.=20

Yeast eats sugars, including sugars that are polymerized into starches.
Technically, it's easier for yeast to eat starch than sucrose (what you
call 'sugar'), but i digress.=20

By the time it's soured your dough and died, it's consumed only a tiny
fraction of the available sugars and starches.=20

Technically, some of it is still alive but dormant, and a small fraction
of it is alive and still producing, but you're getting to the thin edge of
the bell curve. The party is over and there's paper plates and beer bottles
everywhere.=20

Nothing wrong with soured dough. It's like cheese - cheese never really
goes off, it just turns into some other kind of cheese. Whether or not it's
something you want to eat and how exactly you're going to go about
preparing it for consumption is another question.=20

I typically let half a batch of pizza dough go sour. Sourdough pizza
crust is great with a nice sharp jack cheese and some saut=E9ed mushrooms a=
nd
garlic.=20

  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Bell
 
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Eric Jorgensen wrote:

> Any microorganism, given enough food and the right environment, will
> breed and consume until it renders it's environment unlivable.


There's a lesson there for all of us!

Dave
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Here's a related tid-bit I picked up. An optimal way of proofing
dough(quickly) is to put the dough in a cool oven with about a quart of
boiling water (not directly over the water pan). It provides a nice
humid temperature controlled environment for the yeast. I've also
heard about microwaving the dough, though it only works with very low
powered or specific models of microwave.

Aaron

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Alex Rast
 
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at Sat, 05 Feb 2005 21:45:59 GMT in >,
lid wrote :

>I'm not sure why I'm double rising my bread before baking.
>I probably followed somebody's instruction somewhere.
>
>I've seen bread produced in a large scale bakery, with a
>single rise...
>
>So, can some one offer some commentary on the reasons for
>single or double rising ?
>
>Single rise == swifter production time, therefore less cost?
>Longer rise ... better quality ? If so, why ?


Longer rise tends to deliver better taste, I suspect because the
fermentation products that deliver the taste distribute more evenly
throughout and because metabolic processes in the yeast are different with
a slower metabolic rate, resulting in different proportions of metabolic
products. If you use less yeast in order to slow the process down, there
may also be additional effects because there's less local competition for
resources and each yeast colony grows more or less independently.

It also delivers generally a more uniform texture with better grain because
the slower rise means more even release of gases.

Double or even triple rising improves the texture in several ways. It
allows the gluten to stretch not one but multiple times, increasing its
resiliency. It also gets rid of large, nonuniform gas bubbles, allowing for
an even crumb. It also gives more expansion capacity for oven spring
(because once you've punched the dough down, you recompress the gluten
strands, giving them room to grow without breaking).

Bakeries that single-rise are probably doing it as you suspect to save
money, and this may not be simply a matter of time saved but also of
complexity and machinery in additional process steps. You can make
perfectly acceptable bread at home single-rising, but, not facing the clear
cost questions that really only come into play at large volumes, there's no
reason not to double- or triple-rise unless for some reason you're time-
constrained in a way that you can't work around.

at Sun, 06 Feb 2005 00:03:54 GMT in <scna01he9vlcsdfjq489uetc7el65rvnq3@
4ax.com>,
(Kenneth) wrote :

>I am always intrigued by the many posts from people who are
>delighted to discover that they can make bread more quickly
>by proofing it "in the oven with the light on." Few seem to
>be posting with delight when they discover that they can let
>their bread rise more slowly in the basement producing far
>better tastes and textures...


It does seem curious. The net effect is that people searching the newsgroup
as to how to bake *quality* bread can be easily misled and will probably
end up taking longer than they otherwise might have had to to learn - when
they'll be forced to learn most of the crucial principles on their own from
the ground up by experimentation. All the rationalisations I can think of
as to why this pattern in the types of post might exist are prejudicial. I
wonder why this posting pattern seems to prevail?

--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)


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Kenneth
 
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On 6 Feb 2005 18:13:22 -0800, "
> wrote:

>Here's a related tid-bit I picked up. An optimal way of proofing
>dough(quickly) is to put the dough in a cool oven with about a quart of
>boiling water (not directly over the water pan). It provides a nice
>humid temperature controlled environment for the yeast. I've also
>heard about microwaving the dough, though it only works with very low
>powered or specific models of microwave.
>
>Aaron


Hi Aaron,

But, as is true for all fermented foods: The more quickly
they are made, the less pleasant the taste.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
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I'm sensing a bit of arrogance in this group, its like people are using
this group as a means of establishing their own preference as some sort
of law of baked goods.
The Point: I think you need to stop being so judgemental about
something as trivial as bread, not everyone has the time or space to
allow a bread to rise for 13 hours, so 75 minutes for a decent loaf of
freshly baked bread isn't that bad. And hey, when I have 13 hours to
kill, when I am 80, I will try rising the bread for the 'required
time.'
Aaron, wondering if this group should be called the
rec.foods.yeast-growing-discussion

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Raj V
 
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DerSpence wrote:
> I'm sensing a bit of arrogance in this group, its like people are using
> this group as a means of establishing their own preference as some sort
> of law of baked goods.

SNIP
Aw, it isn't that bad. If you want to see fanaticism try rec.food.
sourdough. Some of those people might challenge you to a duel then fly to
your house if you disagree with their methods. Never, ever, mention
sourdough AND yeast together in the same sentence, paragraph, or topic.

From the several bread books I've read, I don't get the sense making bread
is an exact science. "Hold out a cup of flour in case" . . . . "Add more
water if . . . " Measuring to a gram or single digit percentage point seems
superfluous with those instructions, so I agree any "law of baking" is
probably going too far, though some do try. My mom made bread all her life
and never measured anything or went by a recipe that I know of and the bread
was invariably wonderful, much better than anything bought in the store or
bakery. My credo is try my best, enjoy doing it, and learn from each
experience. If I throw in something like flax meal or steel cut oatmeal when
it isn't called for in the recipe, the results are at least interesting, and
usually edible. I am having fun.

Raj V


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Janet Bostwick
 
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> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm sensing a bit of arrogance in this group, its like people are using
> this group as a means of establishing their own preference as some sort
> of law of baked goods.
> The Point: I think you need to stop being so judgemental about
> something as trivial as bread, not everyone has the time or space to
> allow a bread to rise for 13 hours, so 75 minutes for a decent loaf of
> freshly baked bread isn't that bad. And hey, when I have 13 hours to
> kill, when I am 80, I will try rising the bread for the 'required
> time.'
> Aaron, wondering if this group should be called the
> rec.foods.yeast-growing-discussion
>

Bread made the really fast way becomes trivial, something to keep your hands
clean when eating peanut butter. If all you want or need is some bread made
at home, as I said, there are several ways to go about it. But, if you were
ever to have the opportunity to taste the difference between bread made in
an hour and bread that has been made in a slower way, you would understand
why slower is encouraged. The taste difference isn't something you have to
have a special sense to pick up. The fast bread just plain has a 'nasty'
taste as a result of the differences in fast, overly warm fermentation. No
food made at home should be considered trivial--in that case, why bother at
all?
Janet




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Vox Humana
 
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"Raj V" > wrote in message
...
> DerSpence wrote:
> > I'm sensing a bit of arrogance in this group, its like people are using
> > this group as a means of establishing their own preference as some sort
> > of law of baked goods.

> SNIP
> Aw, it isn't that bad. If you want to see fanaticism try rec.food.
> sourdough. Some of those people might challenge you to a duel then fly to
> your house if you disagree with their methods. Never, ever, mention
> sourdough AND yeast together in the same sentence, paragraph, or topic.
>
> From the several bread books I've read, I don't get the sense making bread
> is an exact science. "Hold out a cup of flour in case" . . . . "Add more
> water if . . . "


I think it is a pretty exact science, but not in the context of the home
kitchen. You don't have the ability to evaluate all the parameters of the
ingredients. If you have any doubt, read some of Roy's posts!


  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dee Randall
 
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"Raj V" > wrote in message
...
> DerSpence wrote:
>> I'm sensing a bit of arrogance in this group, its like people are using
>> this group as a means of establishing their own preference as some sort
>> of law of baked goods.

> SNIP
> Aw, it isn't that bad. If you want to see fanaticism try rec.food.
> sourdough. Some of those people might challenge you to a duel then fly to
> your house if you disagree with their methods. Never, ever, mention
> sourdough AND yeast together in the same sentence, paragraph, or topic.
>
> From the several bread books I've read, I don't get the sense making bread
> is an exact science. "Hold out a cup of flour in case" . . . . "Add more
> water if . . . " Measuring to a gram or single digit percentage point
> seems superfluous with those instructions, so I agree any "law of baking"
> is probably going too far, though some do try. My mom made bread all her
> life and never measured anything or went by a recipe that I know of and
> the bread was invariably wonderful, much better than anything bought in
> the store or bakery. My credo is try my best, enjoy doing it, and learn
> from each experience. If I throw in something like flax meal or steel cut
> oatmeal when it isn't called for in the recipe, the results are at least
> interesting, and usually edible. I am having fun.
>
> Raj V


My mom made bread all her life
and never measured anything or went by a recipe that I know of and the bread
was invariably wonderful, much better than anything bought in the store or
bakery. <snip>

I'm not saying your mom did this: but my grandmother did this:
She never measured anything. But, she made the same recipe over and over and
over again. She did vary it by making a pan of "rolls." I loved the bread.
She baked ONCE a week, and I wonder now if the bread was stale at the end of
the week. I know that when we ran out of bread how happy everyone else was
to be able to go to the "Corner" store (actually named, Corner, Washington
Co., Ohio) and buy WonderBread, and when it came into fashion, to buy the
oleo with the piece of colored gloop that we could mix into the oleo to
color it to look like butter. We were still at that time churning butter,
and the family seemed to welcome mashing with a fork the gloop into the
Oleo. "Particularly grandma, I'd bet."
Dee


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Eric Jorgensen
 
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On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:20:34 GMT
"Vox Humana" > wrote:

>
> "Raj V" > wrote in message
> ...
> > DerSpence wrote:
> > > I'm sensing a bit of arrogance in this group, its like people are
> > > using this group as a means of establishing their own preference as
> > > some sort of law of baked goods.

> > SNIP
> > Aw, it isn't that bad. If you want to see fanaticism try rec.food.
> > sourdough. Some of those people might challenge you to a duel then fly
> > to your house if you disagree with their methods. Never, ever, mention
> > sourdough AND yeast together in the same sentence, paragraph, or topic.
> >
> > From the several bread books I've read, I don't get the sense making
> > bread is an exact science. "Hold out a cup of flour in case" . . . .
> > "Add more water if . . . "

>
> I think it is a pretty exact science, but not in the context of the home
> kitchen. You don't have the ability to evaluate all the parameters of
> the ingredients. If you have any doubt, read some of Roy's posts!



What threw me was the concept of time.

Easiest thing in the world to let your loaves proof for a very long
time.

If you think about it, it's actually less time than making it in one
sitting. Instead of waiting around for an hour while you speed-proof, you
just throw 'em in the fridge and go do something else for, oh, a day.

Then when you get around to it, remove 'em from the fridge, preheat the
oven, and throw 'em in.

For extra credit, make cinnamon rolls tonight, refrigerate the pan, and
bake them in the morning.



  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dee Randall
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm sensing a bit of arrogance in this group, its like people are using
> this group as a means of establishing their own preference as some sort
> of law of baked goods.
> The Point: I think you need to stop being so judgemental about
> something as trivial as bread, not everyone has the time or space to
> allow a bread to rise for 13 hours, so 75 minutes for a decent loaf of
> freshly baked bread isn't that bad. And hey, when I have 13 hours to
> kill, when I am 80, I will try rising the bread for the 'required
> time.'
> Aaron, wondering if this group should be called the
> rec.foods.yeast-growing-discussion


I don't think this group is being so judgmental as it is helpful; in that
they would like people to realize that there are differences in the taste of
bread that has risent longer. I recall going to a famous bread store that
had a good reputation and we wanted to share this good bread with friends of
ours who were with us. They got all stiff and resistant and even though we
sat and ate some that we purchased at the store, they wouldn't even taste
it. They had no curiousity how it tasted, nor an inclination to buy a loaf
and take it home.
Different strokes.
Dee



  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Eric Jorgensen" > wrote in message
news:20050207165107.13c6d78d@wafer...
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 23:20:34 GMT
> "Vox Humana" > wrote:
>
> >
> > "Raj V" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > DerSpence wrote:
> > > > I'm sensing a bit of arrogance in this group, its like people are
> > > > using this group as a means of establishing their own preference as
> > > > some sort of law of baked goods.
> > > SNIP
> > > Aw, it isn't that bad. If you want to see fanaticism try rec.food.
> > > sourdough. Some of those people might challenge you to a duel then fly
> > > to your house if you disagree with their methods. Never, ever,

mention
> > > sourdough AND yeast together in the same sentence, paragraph, or

topic.
> > >
> > > From the several bread books I've read, I don't get the sense making
> > > bread is an exact science. "Hold out a cup of flour in case" . . . .
> > > "Add more water if . . . "

> >
> > I think it is a pretty exact science, but not in the context of the home
> > kitchen. You don't have the ability to evaluate all the parameters of
> > the ingredients. If you have any doubt, read some of Roy's posts!

>
>
> What threw me was the concept of time.
>
> Easiest thing in the world to let your loaves proof for a very long
> time.
>
> If you think about it, it's actually less time than making it in one
> sitting. Instead of waiting around for an hour while you speed-proof, you
> just throw 'em in the fridge and go do something else for, oh, a day.
>
> Then when you get around to it, remove 'em from the fridge, preheat the
> oven, and throw 'em in.
>
> For extra credit, make cinnamon rolls tonight, refrigerate the pan, and
> bake them in the morning.


I'm making cinnamon rolls right now, but I can't wait for tomorrow to bake
them. I often split a batch of dough and bake off some now and refrigerate
the rest. That way I don't end up like Dee's grandmother and have stale
bread at the end of the week.




  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
The Cook
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Raj V" > wrote:

>From the several bread books I've read, I don't get the sense making bread
>is an exact science. "Hold out a cup of flour in case" . . . . "Add more
>water if . . . " Measuring to a gram or single digit percentage point seems
>superfluous with those instructions, so I agree any "law of baking" is
>probably going too far, though some do try. My mom made bread all her life
>and never measured anything or went by a recipe that I know of and the bread
>was invariably wonderful, much better than anything bought in the store or
>bakery. My credo is try my best, enjoy doing it, and learn from each
>experience. If I throw in something like flax meal or steel cut oatmeal when
>it isn't called for in the recipe, the results are at least interesting, and
>usually edible. I am having fun.
>

Your mother may not have used a recipe, but she probably learned from
her mother how to do it. "Take a couple of the scoops of flour, this
much yeast, some salt." She was shown how much of each thing to use
and how the dough looked and felt at each stage.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral, 48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)
  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I'm sensing a bit of arrogance in this group, its like people are using
> > this group as a means of establishing their own preference as some sort
> > of law of baked goods.
> > The Point: I think you need to stop being so judgemental about
> > something as trivial as bread, not everyone has the time or space to
> > allow a bread to rise for 13 hours, so 75 minutes for a decent loaf of
> > freshly baked bread isn't that bad. And hey, when I have 13 hours to
> > kill, when I am 80, I will try rising the bread for the 'required
> > time.'
> > Aaron, wondering if this group should be called the
> > rec.foods.yeast-growing-discussion

>
> I don't think this group is being so judgmental as it is helpful; in that
> they would like people to realize that there are differences in the taste

of
> bread that has risent longer. I recall going to a famous bread store that
> had a good reputation and we wanted to share this good bread with friends

of
> ours who were with us. They got all stiff and resistant and even though

we
> sat and ate some that we purchased at the store, they wouldn't even taste
> it. They had no curiousity how it tasted, nor an inclination to buy a

loaf
> and take it home.
> Different strokes.
> Dee


I love people who post messages calling people names and then accuse
everyone else of being judgmental. I also wonder if "Aaron" bothered to
read much of what people have written. I do recall the word "refrigerator"
mentioned a number of times. That is, you don't have to sit there
monitoring the dough for 13 hours. You simply put it in the refrigerator
and get about your normal business. Also, the baking police aren't going to
jail you for baking the way that you want. Just because I don't like
something or recommend a particular method doesn't mean that anyone is
required to agree. I think it is best to know the basics and strive for the
ideal. Sometimes you have to compromise, but if no one ever bothers with a
discussion of the ideal, then we are all doomed to mediocrity. Ignorance may
be bliss, but it doesn't lead to good baking.


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, I was proven correct. This group does contain a great deal of
> arrogance, a kind of stupid elitism about some construct of 'longer'
> rising.


Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.


  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Well, I was proven correct. This group does contain a great deal of
arrogance, a kind of stupid elitism about some construct of 'longer'
rising. In the brief period I've been on this group. I have receive
more MIS-information than anything else. I'm glad you all have found a
drawn out way of making bread. I was simply offended at the put downs
about the "fast way" of bread making, my preference. But the truth is
if you actually kneaded the bread correctly and appropriately, the
bread has a delicious and wonderful flavor. Yeast metabolize at an
OPTIMAL temperature of 85 degrees, ~90 percent humidity and it digests
SUGAR, either sugars contained in the flour mix or sugars you add to
the water to 'prime' it. It really doesn't matter how fast the dough
rises so long as there is adaquate gluten derived from the kneading
process and it doubles in size at least once.

The shame is instead of trying to discuss an issue and LEARN a more
natural technique, albeit a more involved method, you criticized it and
me; not a very friendly group, not really about "baking" is it. Also
Dee, please do not disrespect me, "Aaron" is my name not some abstract
reference. BTW, I've only made the 'nasty' bread when its been too
cold for the dough to properly double and apparently have gotten
impatient, should have stuck it in the fridge.

  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Top Spin
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 8 Feb 2005 12:13:57 -0800, "
> wrote:

>Well, I was proven correct. This group does contain a great deal of
>arrogance, a kind of stupid elitism about some construct of 'longer'
>rising. In the brief period I've been on this group. I have receive
>more MIS-information than anything else. I'm glad you all have found a
>drawn out way of making bread. I was simply offended at the put downs
>about the "fast way" of bread making, my preference. But the truth is
>if you actually kneaded the bread correctly and appropriately, the
>bread has a delicious and wonderful flavor. Yeast metabolize at an
>OPTIMAL temperature of 85 degrees, ~90 percent humidity and it digests
>SUGAR, either sugars contained in the flour mix or sugars you add to
>the water to 'prime' it. It really doesn't matter how fast the dough
>rises so long as there is adaquate gluten derived from the kneading
>process and it doubles in size at least once.
>
>The shame is instead of trying to discuss an issue and LEARN a more
>natural technique, albeit a more involved method, you criticized it and
>me; not a very friendly group, not really about "baking" is it. Also
>Dee, please do not disrespect me, "Aaron" is my name not some abstract
>reference. BTW, I've only made the 'nasty' bread when its been too
>cold for the dough to properly double and apparently have gotten
>impatient, should have stuck it in the fridge.


The only arrogant poster I see is you. If you are so offended, why are
you here? I would suggest that you would be happier elsewhere, but I
doubt that you will be happy anywhere.

--
Hitachi HB-A101 bread machine, 1 pound
Email: Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
(01/10/05)


  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Raj V" > wrote in message
...
> Ah, just block the sender. He will never show up again. Unfortunately, any
> replies to his rantings will, so just don't reply to him.
>


I find him amusing.


  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
graham
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, I was proven correct. This group does contain a great deal of
> arrogance, a kind of stupid elitism about some construct of 'longer'
> rising. In the brief period I've been on this group. I have receive
> more MIS-information than anything else. I'm glad you all have found a
> drawn out way of making bread. I was simply offended at the put downs
> about the "fast way" of bread making, my preference. But the truth is
> if you actually kneaded the bread correctly and appropriately, the
> bread has a delicious and wonderful flavor. Yeast metabolize at an
> OPTIMAL temperature of 85 degrees, ~90 percent humidity and it digests
> SUGAR, either sugars contained in the flour mix or sugars you add to
> the water to 'prime' it. It really doesn't matter how fast the dough
> rises so long as there is adaquate gluten derived from the kneading
> process and it doubles in size at least once.
>
> The shame is instead of trying to discuss an issue and LEARN a more
> natural technique, albeit a more involved method, you criticized it and
> me; not a very friendly group, not really about "baking" is it. Also
> Dee, please do not disrespect me, "Aaron" is my name not some abstract
> reference. BTW, I've only made the 'nasty' bread when its been too
> cold for the dough to properly double and apparently have gotten
> impatient, should have stuck it in the fridge.
>

What meds are you taking? They seem to have given you a remarkably thin
skin as well as affected your English comprehension. There's no elitism
here - just a bunch of very helpful people trying to give you the benefit of
their experience. If you can't see that then "va-te-faire enculer"!
Graham


  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 8 Feb 2005 12:13:57 -0800, "
> wrote:

>Yeast metabolize at an
>OPTIMAL temperature of 85 degrees,


Howdy,

Perhaps you are confusing "OPTIMAL" with most rapid...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dee Randall
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, I was proven correct. This group does contain a great deal of
> arrogance, a kind of stupid elitism about some construct of 'longer'
> rising. In the brief period I've been on this group. I have receive
> more MIS-information than anything else. I'm glad you all have found a
> drawn out way of making bread. I was simply offended at the put downs
> about the "fast way" of bread making, my preference. But the truth is
> if you actually kneaded the bread correctly and appropriately, the
> bread has a delicious and wonderful flavor. Yeast metabolize at an
> OPTIMAL temperature of 85 degrees, ~90 percent humidity and it digests
> SUGAR, either sugars contained in the flour mix or sugars you add to
> the water to 'prime' it. It really doesn't matter how fast the dough
> rises so long as there is adaquate gluten derived from the kneading
> process and it doubles in size at least once.
>
> The shame is instead of trying to discuss an issue and LEARN a more
> natural technique, albeit a more involved method, you criticized it and
> me; not a very friendly group, not really about "baking" is it.


Also
> Dee, please do not disrespect me, "Aaron" is my name not some abstract
> reference.


Please re-read my email. I did not refer to you by name at all.


BTW, I've only made the 'nasty' bread when its been too
> cold for the dough to properly double and apparently have gotten
> impatient, should have stuck it in the fridge.


Also
> Dee, please do not disrespect me, "Aaron" is my name not some abstract
> reference.


Please re-read my email. I did not refer to you by name at all. I have no
reason to disrespect you at all.
Dee

>



  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Vox Humana
 
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"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...


>
> Also
> > Dee, please do not disrespect me, "Aaron" is my name not some abstract
> > reference.

>
> Please re-read my email. I did not refer to you by name at all. I have no
> reason to disrespect you at all.
> Dee


I don't know. After the last message I think I have a reason or two.


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